MBD and the deaf ear...

[stepnstone]

I just don't understand! So many come to TSB asking for help listing a diet that is lacking proper nutrition and void of any rodent block and describing classic symptoms of MBD. Members reach out pointing out that starting the emergency treatment for MBD won't hurt if it's not MBD but can save a life if it is and it just seems to fall on deaf ears. The first trip they want to take is through denial. One would think they were told their squirrel had Leprosy! Too high of a percent of the time we then get to read; She's gone or He's gone! Along with the familiar "they were fine yesterday"... :shakehead

I give thanks to the kind hearts that rescue these babies and many (as I was myself in the beginning) don't have a clue about a squirrels needs,
I get that! Unfortunately, MBD is often a result of that lack of knowledge! What I can not comprehend is how anyone can come on this board seeking advice of all the experience that is here and then not really listen to what is being said! I hurt for the squirrel, I get angry for the squirrel!
Treatment for MBD can be highly effective for a squirrel who has MBD, harmless to one that does not have MBD. MBD kills! MBD is treatable!

There is no room for doubt! And too often... no time!

[island rehabber]

:goodpost:goodpost:goodpost

Many visitors to this site, and to other wildlife rehab sites, think rehabbers are nasty or selfish when we insist that squirrels Should Not Be Kept as Pets. What you've stated above is the NUMBER ONE reason behind this opinion: it is far, far too difficult for most people to keep a captive squirrel healthy (even if it is happy and chooses to stay with its human companion). Yes, it can be done, but it is difficult and expensive, and MOST PEOPLE WILL NOT KEEP IT UP.

And of course, the squirrel is the one who suffers. :sad

[Nancy in New York]

I just don't understand! So many come to TSB asking for help listing a diet that is lacking proper nutrition and void of any rodent block and describing classic symptoms of MBD. Members reach out pointing out that starting the emergency treatment for MBD won't hurt if it's not MBD but can save a life if it is and it just seems to fall on deaf ears. The first trip they want to take is through denial. One would think they were told their squirrel had Leprosy! Too high of a percent of the time we then get to read; She's gone or He's gone! Along with the familiar "they were fine yesterday"... :shakehead

I give thanks to the kind hearts that rescue these babies and many (as I was myself in the beginning) don't have a clue about a squirrels needs,
I get that! Unfortunately, MBD is often a result of that lack of knowledge! What I can not comprehend is how anyone can come on this board seeking advice of all the experience that is here and then not really listen to what is being said! I hurt for the squirrel, I get angry for the squirrel!
Treatment for MBD can be highly effective for a squirrel who has MBD, harmless to one that does not have MBD. MBD kills! MBD is treatable!

There is no room for doubt! And too often... no time!

Excellent point. As you said, start the treatment if the diet is in question AT ALL. Then, we must look for other answers too by continuing to question the poster. I do remember last year, there was someone who came on with the symptoms of MBD and they started the treatment, but through continued questioning the squirrel had actually eaten a bite of a poisonous plant.
So bottom line, start the treatment, but we must continue to question. This way we can eliminate other possibilities.

[Jackie in Tampa]

you are not talking to deaf ears here SS...
I know exactly what you are saying...as I am usually the one that holds them during their last seizure..
hell yes I understand...yes, I sadly understand..

and IR is sooo right...
they tell us what they think we want to hear...
seldom do I get the truth until I explain why, on what has been the diet of a sq in full blown fading fast seizure statis...
heart breaking...

these sqs have taught me sooo sooo much...
about alot of things:tilt
:Love_Icon

[ninjasteve]

i hope none of you take this like im upset about this thread as im not but speaking on mine and my wife's behalf MBD did not fall on deaf ears with us... we are the ones who own nutty and through this wonderful forum with such wonderful experienced people we were able to pretty much pin point the fact that he has MBD... was it our fault that we didnt research a while ago on how to properly feed a squirrel to make sure he/she has enough calcium and the right foods? yes and we apologize, we just figured ok, fruits, veggies and nuts..what else??... what we thought was healthy , really wasnt... we wish we could turn back the time and have done it right.....with all of your help and more exclusively nancy's and kim's , nutty is doing a lot better and hopefully in no time will be right back to his self again... and from here on out, we will def be feeding him with proper nutrition... we will never ever go through this again..its been very stressful on us...we dont ever want to lose our little boy...he is 4..and has many more years left of happiness with us..
im glad you did put this up here because hopefully the information on this bad disease will get out there more to others who are not that knowledgeable and who own these cute little ones and will help prevent all of this ... :)
and although i do love this board, it can be very very confusing at times on what to do and not to do etc etc..it can send your head spinning.. but this is a good thread that was posted and im glad replied to it.. i hope no one gets offended.. i just wanted to let you all know sometimes it doesn't necessarily fall on deaf ears...people join here in hopes to reaching out to all of you for some dire help to save their little ones...and sometimes its too late..it saddens me greatly when that happens... keep up the good work everyone :)
thanks

[Jackie in Tampa]

nutty's mommy and daddy...
my first sq has MBD...he is 9.5 years old.
I am amazed NOW that I did not kill him...
his symptoms did not show until he was about the same age as nutty.
WE are here for you, I for one feel your pain and believe in your unselfish and truthful request for help.

we all have to start somewhere:grouphug
Thank you for loving a sq!

[Nancy in New York]

Oh ninjasteve....there is nobody on this board that could possibly be offended by anything that you say. You came on looking for help and have stuck with everything so graciously. You are polite and you want to listen to everyone and that can cause confusion. Everyone has their own opinion as to what has worked for them. I once remember someone asking me who I personally thought the best vet is for their squirrel....I told them, the one that fixes him.

I dare say, you are in good company when you say how you know NOW that you didn't do the right thing with Nutty's diet. Oh Lord, if you only knew half of the stories of people that are now rehabbers, or sub permittees....the mistakes that were made.:D

The important thing is, (and this is what makes you different)......you came on to learn and look for information. So many times people come on and immediately challenge the people who give the advice. They get attitudes like the people who are trying to help have two heads and are clueless.

There is no doubt that you love Nutty, and that you will continue to do exactly everything that you need to do to get and keep him healthy. You are an absolute pleasure to have on this board. And I know that if you question anything or any advice that you were given by anyone, it is NOT taken personally....you are doing this to learn, and this is how we learn, by asking questions.

I do hope that you and Fawn hang around forever, as you are a real asset to this board.:Love_Icon :grouphug :Love_Icon

[stepnstone]

i hope none of you take this like im upset about this thread as im not but speaking on mine and my wife's behalf MBD did not fall on deaf ears with us... we are the ones who own nutty and through this wonderful forum with such wonderful experienced people we were able to pretty much pin point the fact that he has MBD... was it our fault that we didnt research a while ago on how to properly feed a squirrel to make sure he/she has enough calcium and the right foods? yes and we apologize, we just figured ok, fruits, veggies and nuts..what else??... what we thought was healthy , really wasnt... we wish we could turn back the time and have done it right.....with all of your help and more exclusively nancy's and kim's , nutty is doing a lot better and hopefully in no time will be right back to his self again... and from here on out, we will def be feeding him with proper nutrition... we will never ever go through this again..its been very stressful on us...we dont ever want to lose our little boy...he is 4..and has many more years left of happiness with us..
im glad you did put this up here because hopefully the information on this bad disease will get out there more to others who are not that knowledgeable and who own these cute little ones and will help prevent all of this ... :)
and although i do love this board, it can be very very confusing at times on what to do and not to do etc etc..it can send your head spinning.. but this is a good thread that was posted and im glad replied to it.. i hope no one gets offended.. i just wanted to let you all know sometimes it doesn't necessarily fall on deaf ears...people join here in hopes to reaching out to all of you for some dire help to save their little ones...and sometimes its too late..it saddens me greatly when that happens... keep up the good work everyone :)
thanks

Most uninformed people would think Squirrel = nuts, veggies, fruit. Without any experience or knowledge who would even think let alone know a thing about a squirrel and calcium?? No 'one I know, so don't beat yourself up about what you didn't know. Instead, give yourself credit for researching what you know now and acting on it. No, you didn't turn a deaf ear, your baby is no longer suffering. That's the whole point here. You came, you asked, you listened AND acted on it! This was certainly not about you or Nutty, I could only wish there were more like you.

[stepnstone]

[QUOTE=Jackie in Tampa]you are not talking to deaf ears here SS...
I know exactly what you are saying...as I am usually the one that holds them during their last seizure..
hell yes I understand...yes, I sadly understand..

Realizing all the sacrifices you have made and continue to make, all the ones in your care, all the ones that have come and gone...
I not only see your words, I feel your emotions! I know you understand! :grouphug

[mpetys]

Perhaps after Nutty has recovered, ninjasteve and nuttys mama will stick around. Their story and Nutty's thread could be what helps convince another new person with a possible MBD squirrel that this is truly serious and that everyone here just cares about the squirrel getting better.

What some new people do not realize is that TSB is a work in progress, made up of volunteers; sometimes losing members because they no longer need help, but along the way, adding new members that want to give back and help other people and their squirrels.

[ninjasteve]

thank you guys. im just glad no one got offended... :) ...and yes we plan on sticking around here even after nutty is all better..
my wife went home at lunchtime and was able to give him 17 ccs with the ca.. he fought a little, which we wish he wouldnt but she got it in him..and he is still doing ok...fawn said his feet are a little more reactive.. not too much in his legs.but its still a good sign...he didnt move from the time we left for work until she got home but once she put him on his left side, he tried to b-line it towards the other side of his cage...so we are thinking in the other position he cant really see the other side so therefor he may not bother trying to move etc.. what a nut lol
thanks everyone

[Nutty's Mama]

This is an excellent thread and so glad that it was posted. I would like to think that if someone comes here looking for help that they are willing to put in the effort and time in helping their little critter. I know that Steve and I would do just about anything for our little Nutty.
This has been such a wonderful learing and educational experience (even though it has been very stressful at times) and I am so happy that we found TSB. If it wasnt for TSB and all the wonderful people on here, who knows where little Nutty would be today. I know that if Nutty could talk he would say, "Thank you everyone that has helped my mommy and daddy become more knowledgeable and for giving them the useful information so that I can get better." :) :thankyou

[Jackie in Tampa]

moving is good...just not falling...brittle bones...
:threadjack
sorry to always be brief, hate typing...very slow and very busy...

[ninjasteve]

yea i dont think he has enough energy to climb yet anyhow..
oh and i forgot to tell you all, fawn was talking with him and said if your a good boy for mama i will give you a treat.. she went down after and put just a little bit of peanut butter on her finger, just to see how he would react to it, and he actually took a tiny nibble of it.. hardly anything but he had some interest..so thats good..not that we are going to start feeding him PB lol....

[island rehabber]

I could never fault anyone for not knowing how to properly care for a squirrel when I, myself, unknowingly weaned my first squirrel at five weeks old :shakehead. It's truly a miracle he survived and was eventually released, but I did EVERYTHING wrong. That was in 2002, and I've been trying to make up for it ever since. :D

[UDoWhat]

Stepnstone, I hear your frustration. I just have to keep saying "they just don't know". You have to keep trying to persuade people who don't believe to just try the Tums. Try the treatment protocol. If I am wrong then you get to say "I told you so. But if I am right... we will save this wonderful squirrel. I have had alot of MBD squirels die in my hands too. I hate it. I want to change it. And sometimes I want to scream at the careless owners. I know that won't help... only turn them away. Most people will listen so I have to rejoice in those successes.
Ninjasteve and wife and Nutty. You are the one's that listened. Yes, sometimes there is some conflicting verbiage but never a conflicting heart. This board is here to help people help squirrels. You are proof of that. Now spread the word every time you see a post that" a squirrel is different today or lethargic or won't move". Tell them your story. Help them understand. I have to say you are one of us now... no escaping. mjs
Stepnstone, keep spreading the word about MBD. You are as knowledgeable as any here on the subject. We do the best we can for the squirrels. You have helped countless critters and many people. That is all you can do... your best.

Marty

[mdyoung216]

How do wild squirrels get calcium? I live in a neighborhood of row homes with woods around with plenty of squirrels and I have yet to see a squirrel drinking a glass of milk. LOL Do these squirrels probably get MBD?

[island rehabber]

To the best of our knowledge, MBD does NOT occur in the wild.

We are not sure how squirrels get all their calcium in the wild because there are so many different sources: bones, egg shells, high-calcium plants and plant matter; even insects. Typically these are not things a pet squirrel owner is going to feed their little guy. This is why, without these wild foods to balance the diet, pet squirrels (and non-releasables in long-term captivity) get MBD. The nuts, corn, and treats they are given tend to be very high in phosphorous, yet there isn't enough calcium to balance that phosphorous so.....MBD. :(

We also have to remember that squirrels in the wild eat so many different things at different times of year. They don't eat pecans year 'round -- they eat pecans when the pecan trees do their thing and then not for another 10 months or so. Captive squirrels, however, get the same foods year 'round regardless of season because their owners can buy them in a store. THIS also screws up their calcium/phosphorous ratio.

[mdyoung216]

Thanks

[CritterMom]

I think it is not even so much that they consume lots of calcium in the wild, but that they do NOT consume as much phosphorus as they do with many captive diets. It is the relationship between these two elements more than the quantity of the calcium that affects MBD.

[island rehabber]

I think it is not even so much that they consume lots of calcium in the wild, but that they do NOT consume as much phosphorus as they do with many captive diets. It is the relationship between these two elements more than the quantity of the calcium that affects MBD.

:goodpost

[pappy1264]

Also, captive squirrels will never get as much sunlight as a wild squirrel can and does. They absorb vitamin D from being in the sun, which the body needs to process calcium. There are foods that have vitamin D in them that is part of a healthy squirrel diet (but again, not every squirrel will eat everything you put in front of them, no matter how hard you try.)

[stepnstone]

:bump


I just don't understand! So many come to TSB asking for help listing a diet that is lacking proper nutrition and void of any rodent block and describing classic symptoms of MBD. Members reach out pointing out that starting the emergency treatment for MBD won't hurt if it's not MBD but can save a life if it is and it just seems to fall on deaf ears. The first trip they want to take is through denial. One would think they were told their squirrel had Leprosy! Too high of a percent of the time we then get to read; She's gone or He's gone! Along with the familiar "they were fine yesterday"... :shakehead

I give thanks to the kind hearts that rescue these babies and many (as I was myself in the beginning) don't have a clue about a squirrels needs,
I get that! Unfortunately, MBD is often a result of that lack of knowledge! What I can not comprehend is how anyone can come on this board seeking advice of all the experience that is here and then not really listen to what is being said! I hurt for the squirrel, I get angry for the squirrel!
Treatment for MBD can be highly effective for a squirrel who has MBD, harmless to one that does not have MBD. MBD kills! MBD is treatable!

There is no room for doubt! And too often... no time!

I just don't get denial when there is a life that hangs in the balance! :shakehead

[SammysMom]

:goodpost :bowdown :goodpost
Saved my Sammy for sure!!!:Love_Icon

[stepnstone]

Even after two + years my girl will turn off eating her block and I'll have to go through the tough love process all over again. :dono
Sometimes she has even dropped a few grams playing her stubborn role, I do not waver! :nono

I have been going through her selective eating this past week again after I found stashed block. :eek:
I pulled everything except for giving her fresh block, yesterday she barely ate... :(

I removed the uneaten block last night, this morning when I took her upstairs I didn't give her any food for the first hour or so...
Then I took her two blocks...
She about ripped my hand off grabbing for them, growling at me while holding them both at the same time and chowing down! :rotfl

I will always remain vigilant when it comes to the health and survival of my baby girl... in spite of herself. :Love_Icon

[island rehabber]

:bowdown You're a good squirrel pappa, step. This is such an important thread and I'm glad you bumped it. Too much MBD around here lately and too much denial, as well.
:thankyou

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

I have never had to deal with this dreaded disease, only have read about it.

Peaches and Finnegan go thru days they will eat block and days they wont.
Some days they don't want any greens, some days they eat it all.

Cages are cleaned out completely EVERYDAY...No stash EVER!!! This way I know what they eat and how much EVERYDAY!!!

It is hard to force a squirrel to do anything , much less make it eat something it doesn't want to. Some days the block is frozen, some days it is room temp, other days I nuke it 15 seconds and roll in Fox Valley. Variety seems to be the key, they do get bored.

[owenssammy]

I have just been reading all your comments on this. Very interesting. I came on this forum for help nearly 2 years ago and everyone has been of great help to me and the survival of my squirrel peanut. I must say after feeding her a diet of fruit, veg nuts and home made blocks with added calcium, I have even decided to order blocks from Henrys and I live in the UK so is an expensive diet for my girl!! But of course I will spend the money as she is my baby and i want her to have the best and healthiest life she can have. I would hate her to get MBD and suffer in that way. I have read soooo many awful stories on here of people trying to help these little guys and then developing MBD. I think it can't be talked about enough and if people listen and act on it many squirrel lives can be saved :D :thankyou

[stepnstone]

Too much MBD around here lately and too much denial, as well.

Yes, definitly is! :shakehead

Bottom line!

MBD kills! MBD is treatable!

There is no room for doubt! And too often... no time!