looking for some help :)

[ninjasteve]

Hi there.. so I was doing some research last night and came across this forum.. after reading up on MBD, my wife and I believe our 4 year old little buddy has it..we came upstairs later on last night and "nutty" was in his hammock laying on his back and acting rather unresponsive...we thought he was super tired at first until we picked him up and noticed something is not right.. he was very lethargic, not moving much at all,kind of cool to the touch and just looked different..we have not been giving him the proper diet like we should have..now we know what we need to feed him..:)
we use to have a UV light but it had broke a while back and never got around to getting another one.. so we now know thats a must have...... we usually fed him mostly carrots, sweet potatoes, mellons, any fruit pretty much and alot of nuts..non salted of course..usually in the shell too.. like mixed nuts.. also we would give him animal crackers and we gave him ensure from time to time..
after reading several posts about MBD , we went out this AM and got another full spectrum UV bulb and blasted him with that.. we also got pedialyte(only because some said its ok and some didnt??) and more ensure and plain calcium pills..600mg each.....we have given him 3 doses now of caclium which we split up the pill in different little sections and crushed it into a powder mixed with the pedialyte in a syringe, he seems to be taking it, although this last feeding he resisted a little, but we got some more in him. he probably has had about 300 mg or so so far..and only has had a little bit of ensure. so my question is, is the ensure ok to feed him for his food intake as his appetite is not really there? how should we be going about all of this?? i believe we are following the directions for treating this disease...he does seem to be doing better from this AM...he is more responsive...a little more verbal with the chittering and moving his front limbs around more..not as much with the back legs..although my wife checked them and when she tugged on them a bit, he did resist with them... so we are hoping he is not paralyzed...oh and he currently lies in his hammock under the bulb with a little blanked on him and a sock buddy next to him to keep him warm.. he did pee in his hammock a couple of times , so im assuming this is a good sign as well?? any help is much appreciated as i said we want to make sure we are doing everything necessary to keep him in our lives :)
Thanks so much!!

[island rehabber]

:Welcomeninjasteve! We are so glad you found TSB before it's too late to help your squirrel buddy. FOLLOW THE PROTOCOL listed to the letter and he WILL improve...but it takes time. Lots of time, sometimes up to a year or more, for him to be normal again. And sometimes MBD leaves impairments which can't be reversed, but let's hope that's not the case. You MUST folow the diet and be strong: he must be on rodent block and calcium and NOT fruits and nuts. Tough love will save his life.

mergency Treatment for MBD

Get calcium into the animal IMMEDIATELY, not later, not tomorrow, NOW.
Delaying treatment can cause death or permanent paralysis.

You will need:
• Tums, rolaids, or calcium supplement (any kind)
• a syringe or spoon

Crush one pill and add a little water or fruit juice to make a paste. Use the syringe or spoon to force-feed the mixture, a little at a time, until it is all gone. The first day, give a total of 500 mg of calcium per 1 pound bodyweight. Divide this amount into 6-8 doses throughout the day/night to maintain blood calcium levels.

Important!

1. Any kind of calcium pill is okay for the initial dose. But you must use PLAIN calcium pills (without Vit D) from then on.

2. Try to give many small doses of calcium throughout the day/night to keep blood calcium levels as steady as possible.

3. If seizures or paralysis worsen or return, give another emergency dose, then seek help from a veterinarian, rehabber, or from The Squirrel Board, as relapses can be very serious.

The acute symptoms (weakness, lethargy, seizures, paralysis) will usually improve within a few hours, but this does not mean the squirrel is cured. It will take many months to rebuild the calcium in the bones. (See the "Long-Term Treatment for MBD.”)

More Tips

MBD causes brittle bones that break easily. Try to keep your squirrel confined to a small cage and away from high places, where he might jump and break a bone.

Heat is very soothing for an animal with MBD. A heating pad turned to low and placed so they cannot chew the pad or cord, or a rice buddy (a sock filled with dry rice/beans and microwaved for about 20 seconds) will work.


Long-Term Treatment for Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD)

The next step to curing MBD is to fix the diet.

1. Remove ALL seeds, nuts, corn, and treats.

2. Follow the Healthy Diet For Pet Squirrels, which can be found on the Henry’s Healthy Pets website (www.henryspets.com) (http://www.henryspets.com%29/).

Your squirrel MUST eat rodent block or squirrel blocks every day. If your squirrel doesn't like rodent blocks, you can try crushing them up with peanut butter or avocado temporarily.

3. In addition to the Healthy Diet, you will need to continue giving extra calcium every day for several weeks. Use a syringe or spoon, or you can try putting the calcium on a small piece of fruit.

Calcium Dosage (for a 1-pound squirrel):

Week 1: calcium = 500 mg per day
Week 2: calcium = 250 mg per day
Weeks 3-8: calcium = 100 mg per day

If acute symptoms—weakness, lethargy, seizures, paralysis—return at any time, you will need to give another emergency dose of calcium.

More Tips
MBD causes brittle bones that break easily. Try to keep your squirrel confined to a small cage and away from high places, where he might jump and break a bone.

Heat is very soothing for a squirrel with MBD. A heating pad turned to low and placed so they cannot chew the pad or cord, or a rice buddy (a sock filled with dry rice/beans and microwaved for about 20 seconds) will work. __________________

[CritterMom]

You have a good start here. The Ensure is a good short term way to get lots of nutrients into him, plus it is sweet and they seem to like it. You can try putting the calcium into the Ensure - if he likes the taste he will take it more readily.

If you read the info we have on MBD you know this is a LONG TERM treatment that will also involve a wholesale diet change for him. The nuts will have to go for a while - he will eventually get them as treats, but you will need to convert him to eating a rodent block of some kind as his staple, so as to provide the calcium he needs as part of his diet and not an added supplement.

You will want to keep the calcium intake high - about 500mg per day spread out in multiple servings - for some time - until the acute symptoms are gone, and then you will slowly start decreasing it as you add in healthy foods that will have their own calcium in them.

[ninjasteve]

wow.. so awesome i got two replies so soon...love this board and love knowing there are people out there who truly care about these little precious gems who are a part of our lives... thanks so much for the quick responses. i will keep you posted on his condition as time moves on... im thinking his appetite will be back fairly soon?? my wife and i will be purchasing henrys rodent blocks pretty soon.. is there an alternative in the meantime that i should give him for rodent block?? isnt there like a recipe to make your own or something? i thought perhaps i read something like that....
thanks again for everything :)

[CritterMom]

wow.. so awesome i got two replies so soon...love this board and love knowing there are people out there who truly care about these little precious gems who are a part of our lives... thanks so much for the quick responses. i will keep you posted on his condition as time moves on... im thinking his appetite will be back fairly soon?? my wife and i will be purchasing henrys rodent blocks pretty soon.. is there an alternative in the meantime that i should give him for rodent block?? isnt there like a recipe to make your own or something? i thought perhaps i read something like that....
thanks again for everything :)


You can try getting a bag of the Kaytee Forti-Diet for rats at a local pet store but he likely will turn his nose up. The Henrys are some of the most palatable. You can use the regular rat blocks to make "Boo Balls" which include ground rat diet plus Fox Valley formula powder and some other ingredients - it is in the Nutrition room here, but for now, I think I would let him have the ensure and then work to transition him to the Henrys. Once he likes those, he can branch out even more. Bear in mind that this is going to be like raising a kid until 12 on pizza and McDonalds and then announcing he is going to go vegan. Expect some whining and resistance!

Good health food and vitamin stores sell calcium without D as a powder already - no crushing necessary. I would suggest that you look for that - it will make things a LOT easier for you!

[ninjasteve]

ok crittermom.. sounds like a plan.. we will order the henrys soon...and maybe do some exploring around on here for other blocks we can do as homemade etc...
as far as the light i got, it came from a store called agway..not sure you ever heard of it, but the light is called agrosun..its a 60 watt screw in and says dayspot grow bulb with full spectrum lighting..the fixture is a dome with a clamp and its clamped up on a curtain rod about 2 feet from his cage shining down.. is this ok?
thanks as always :)

[CritterMom]

Honestly, most full spectrum bulbs are relatively worthless for metabolizing Vitamin D. The only ones that actually emit UV are the reptile lights and the strongest ones available only emit the UV for 10 inches directly below the bulb. The lamps like you have are "visual full spectrum" which means the light is the same color as full spectrum - it is good for reading and close work and crafters like them - but they don't have any beneficial effect. The good news is that the rodent blocks have ALL the Vitamin D Nutty needs.

[treeman]

I'm glad you found the board, ninjasteve! I learn something new everyday on TSB! :flash3

I add calcium to my formula. I had read somewhere to use calcium WITH vitamin D, but here y'all say not to. What does the vitamin D do? I thought it helped absorbtion?

[astra]

I'm glad you found the board, ninjasteve! I learn something new everyday on TSB! :flash3

I add calcium to my formula. I had read somewhere to use calcium WITH vitamin D, but here y'all say not to. What does the vitamin D do? I thought it helped absorbtion?
if you are using Fox Valley you do not need to add any calcium to it, because it is complete. It has everything in the right amount, and by adding calcium or anything else to it you run a risk of overdosing on calcium or whatever it is you are adding.
Fox Valley formula should not have anything added to it in terms of vitamins/minerals.
Calcium overdose is as dangerous as its deficiency.

Vit D in cal. pills is the wrong amount for a squirrel. It's way too high and you will do more harm with it.
Again, as long as they eat formula (and later a rodent block) they do not need any supplementation. They can get their vit. D from blocks + mushrooms (some other foods), but mostly - blocks.

Please do not add any vitamins/minerals to their formula.

If you are following MBD protocol - just follow it as prescribed: these guidelines have been proven through hundreds of experiences and saved hundreds of squirrels.

[treeman]

:thankyou astra! See?...I really Do learn something everyday!...No more calcium.

[astra]

:thankyou astra! See?...I really Do learn something everyday!...No more calcium.
:) :grouphug

[quagmire]

Quagmire was suffering from MBD effects. We have the right diet and one of the UV lamps but find REAL sunlight works best. We have a small outdoor cage for him and he gets a minimum of 30 minutes a day of sunlight, sometimes more.

Don't know what state you are in so be careful of prying eyes. In Florida it is legal to have squirrels, other states are not so nice.

Good luck.

[astra]

Don't know what state you are in so be careful of prying eyes. In Florida it is legal to have squirrels, other states are not so nice.

Good luck.:grouphug :goodpost

[CritterMom]

If you go hunting locally for blocks until you can get the Henry's, these are the most likely ones you will find at pet stores:

Kaytee Forti-diet - http://www.kaytee.com/products/kaytee-fortidiet-pro-health-mouse-rat.php

Kaytee is in almost all chain pet stores and is relatively easy to find. Another choice is

Sun Seed Critter Cubes - http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/199947/product.web

Oxbow makes Regal Rat but I have yet to convince anyone to eat them - too bad, they are very high quality but must taste awful!

Like I said, he may look at you like you have two heads when you hand him these ghastly things that are NOT NUTS. If you get the big rejection, I have a bunch of ideas to deconstruct them and use them as a base for something he will like, but try just plain first.

[Skul]

Regardless of which block you choose, please continue to offer other foods as well.
Blocks are a major part of the diet, but, other items provide a needed variety.
HHB's are the favored.

[island rehabber]

Oxbow makes Regal Rat but I have yet to convince anyone to eat them - too bad, they are very high quality but must taste awful!

Ain't it the truth? I know a rehabber who bought 100lbs of them....not one squirrel would touch them. Then she generously bestowed 5lb bags on her rehabber friends....none of our squirrels would touch 'em either. :sanp3

[ninjasteve]

hi again guys... thanks for the all information and kind words.. nutty is still kind of the same.. he is still going pee, no sign of poop though??...and he is still pretty responsive and chattering everytime we go near him.. i assume because he is in pain and doesnt want us to touch him??
we took him out of his hammock and propped some towels up in the corner of his cage, we closed out the bottom so he cant fall through the hole and we now have two sock buddies to keep him warm and a little blankey covering up his lower half ...we gave him another dose of calcium and he drank a little ensure..not alot.. but at least its something..it looks like his tail is moving now and his back legs looked to move a little bit from time to time.. so im hoping paralysis is not really in the picture?? we moved him from the hammock because we figured when he gets a little more energy to want to move he can more freely do so and he wont fall out of the hammock and get hurt...what do you all think???
and how long will it take for him to possibly start moving around more etc??
crittermom, thanks about the bulb.. its going to have to do for now but maybe tomorrow we can go to petsmart and get a reptisun one for him... we only have the dome base so we will get a screw in one..i think i saw the repti sun 10.0 are good right??? as you guys know its winter time and not much sun is around..plus he is in a huge and heavy ferret cage so we cant wheel him out into the sun and the sun doesnt really come in the window.. so really a bulb is the only thing for now until perhaps next summer we can take him outside in the sun somehow..
also, when work starts back up for us on monday, our schedules wont really permit us to feed him 6 to 8 doses of calcium...can we just give him more and do 4 doses or something??
thanks alot everyone.. you ROCK :)
happy turkey to all...gobble gobble!!!!

[CritterMom]

Yes, breaking up the calcium into 4 a day is fine. I think restricting his climbing is a very good idea, too. If he isn't eating much he won't be pooping much. Does he like avocado? It is a good way to sneak calcium to him and has lots of fat in it. Cut two thin slices, sprinkle with calcium oowder and work it into the surface of the avocado (I use a butter knife) then sandwich them with the calcium inside.

Warm the ensure before you offer it to him. Have you tried syringe feeding it to him?

Is there a way to rig a heating pad where he couodn't get to it to chew? That would be a lot easier than the buddies, and the supplemental heat is important.

[pappy1264]

For down the road, if you won't eat block, grind some up and mix it in with full fat Stoneyfield French Vanilla yogurt. I can usually get mine to eat block this way (or pour the yogurt over the block).

[ninjasteve]

hello again...well we were at my family's house for thanksgiving this afternoon..unfortunatley we werent able to give him a third dose until now. around 8 hours later...he doesnt seem to be doing much better at this point...still responsive but also acting a little weird..like a couple fits of paralysis and not opening his eyes and then he will open.. not chattering as much either.. so thats odd..we are getting a little concerned over here... i really hope he will be ok... we are going to try and warm up the ensure..see if he will take that better...we are really FORCING this stuff into him now...he is really resisting us... any ideas on whats going on here??? eveything is leading me to believe he has MBD... i just hope we arent too late...i know tuesday night he came down with this and we couldnt do much for him until yesterday AM...what do you guys think??? his breathing isnt raspy sounding so i dont think he is sick with the flu.....i know at times his breathing seems a little harder...not sure what to think? please help
thanks

[Nancy in New York]

hello again...well we were at my family's house for thanksgiving this afternoon..unfortunatley we werent able to give him a third dose until now. around 8 hours later...he doesnt seem to be doing much better at this point...still responsive but also acting a little weird..like a couple fits of paralysis and not opening his eyes and then he will open.. not chattering as much either.. so thats odd..we are getting a little concerned over here... i really hope he will be ok... we are going to try and warm up the ensure..see if he will take that better...we are really FORCING this stuff into him now...he is really resisting us... any ideas on whats going on here??? eveything is leading me to believe he has MBD... i just hope we arent too late...i know tuesday night he came down with this and we couldnt do much for him until yesterday AM...what do you guys think??? his breathing isnt raspy sounding so i dont think he is sick with the flu.....i know at times his breathing seems a little harder...not sure what to think? please help
thanks


Would you be willing to take him to a vet?

[CritterMom]

Make sure he is nice and warm - if you can get a heating pad under his area without him being able to bite the cord, that is ideal. Make sure he is staying hydrated. He may not like the store bought pedialyte - if not, try home made:

1 teaspoon salt
3 Tablespoons sugar
1 quart water

Warm this like you would formula and offer by syringe.

How much calcium in milligrams are you getting into him daily?

Does he like the Ensure?

Another way to get some calcium into him might be some almond butter. Most grocery stores are now selling unsalted almond butter in their natural foods section, and places like Whole foods and Trader Joes have it. Just mix the dose of calcium into the almond butter and roll it into a little ball and see if he will eat it.

Tums are actually a pretty good source of straight calcium and my squirrel considers fruit Tums to be a wonderful treat. That might help you get it into him, too.

[CritterMom]

Would you be willing to take him to a vet?


Nancy, he is pretty close to you...

[ninjasteve]

also.... i dont think anyone told me but when do you think we could expect him to really start moving around more etc??
and i forgot to say he did move while we were gone... he was facing to the left before we headed out for dinner and then we got home he was faced to the right....
and yes crittermom we been using a syringe... and like i said he is resisting us...its frustrating for us because we dont want to see anything happen to him and want him better asap...and he wont eat obviously so the ensure is really the only thing we are trying to give him..
also, good news, before we left earlier this afternoon he did let a turd out and it looked kind of healthy....
thanks

[CritterMom]

Well, he hasn't really slid any further into being sick - that is good. It could take several days before you start to see real improvement.

[ninjasteve]

well nancy as you know its not legal to own one of these little buddies in ny so a vet is out of the question....
we could try tums next... maybe try the homemade pedialyte...
i can tell you yesterday afternoon he took in a ton of the pedialyte...its strawberry flavored...but lately today he like doesnt want anything..we are really forcing stuff into him...
ughhh...
thanks guys..really mean it...

[Nancy in New York]

well nancy as you know its not legal to own one of these little buddies in ny so a vet is out of the question....
we could try tums next... maybe try the homemade pedialyte...
i can tell you yesterday afternoon he took in a ton of the pedialyte...its strawberry flavored...but lately today he like doesnt want anything..we are really forcing stuff into him...
ughhh...
thanks guys..really mean it...

I am aware of that, but I can pm you some information about one that will see him if you want.

[ninjasteve]

thanks nancy... where abouts in ny if you dont mind me asking?? im about 45 minutes away from albany...but we really have limited funds right now too, so we would consider taking him as a last resort...
i take it thats where you go for yours?
thanks

[ninjasteve]

oh crittermom to answer ur question...we are giving him straight calcium mashed up into powder 4 times a day now... we figure its around 150mg each time...although the is some residue left in the little bowl we use..so im thinking we are losing some of the mgs....
thanks.... u guys are wonderful

[Nancy in New York]

thanks nancy... where abouts in ny if you dont mind me asking?? im about 45 minutes away from albany...but we really have limited funds right now too, so we would consider taking him as a last resort...
i take it thats where you go for yours?
thanks

I'm in Schenectady. My vet is in Saratoga, but not sure that she would treat without you being licensed or subpermitted.

The vet I am thinking about that would treat is an exotics vet in Schenectady.

[ninjasteve]

one more thing... i take it these little guys sleep a TON when they are like this until they get better??? he is like a zombie...

[CritterMom]

Yes, lethargy is one of the symptoms.

It sounds like you have gotten him hydrated and the salt is not good long term, but you can make the solution I suggested without the salt - the little bit of sugar makes them want to drink more.

Hit a pet store tomorrow and pick up a bag of the Forti-diet. Also get the almond butter. You can make him some solid food with ground up Forti diet, the Ensure and some almond butter and can add some extra calcium to that. He needs solid foods too.

He hurts. Their bones ache when they get this way - the calcium has been leached from them and he has what is basically sudden onset osteoporosis. That is why the warmth is so important - it makes him feel better.

[ninjasteve]

ok we can try that...
but how am i going to get him to eat solid foods when he doesnt want us to bother him and try to force liquid in him?
also, i was checking on him just now.. he is in a deep sleep..but when i touch him he does react by ears moving a little and his skin twitching and his tail twitches as well.. so i dont think he is paralyzed?
thanks again

[Nancy in New York]

ok we can try that...
but how am i going to get him to eat solid foods when he doesnt want us to bother him and try to force liquid in him?
also, i was checking on him just now.. he is in a deep sleep..but when i touch him he does react by ears moving a little and his skin twitching and his tail twitches as well.. so i dont think he is paralyzed?
thanks again

How much hydration have you gotten into him today. This may call for tough love if you are going to pull him through this.
Is his body warm, you know normal feeling, or is he cool?

[ninjasteve]

hello everyone...wanted to give you an update on nutty...right now he is sound asleep hugging his little rice buddy and his head is buried under a towel...we got a heating pad now, thanks to nancy :) kim too who helped out a ton and between nancy and kim they made it all happen for us..without them nutty may not be here right now...so thanks again :) but we are about to give him another feeding soon..he seems to love fox valley, so hopefully he will take double in tonight and then we wont have to give him supplemental calcium too...we will prolly give him another dose of infant ibuprofen,,is this ok????
will keep you all posted more..
thanks so much

[ninjasteve]

and it was brought to my attention that nutty had a little mini seizure type thing a few minutes ago...didnt last long and he is fine now..it happened earlier too...kind of weird but this is to be expected or?? we shouldnt worry??? and we are giving him a little maple syrup after it to get his sugar levels up...
thanks guys :)

[CritterMom]

He can have the infant ibuprophen every 4 hours.

It is wonderful that he likes the FV, but he will need to be supplemented with exdtra calcium for some time. The FV has exactly what a growing squirrel baby needs to thrive but it doesn't have enough calcium to counteract MBD.

If he likes the FV, you may be able to hide some extra calcium in there. You can also get some yogurt - Stoneyfield Yobaby is a wonderful tasting FULL FAT yogurt and the vanilla or banana will very nicely hide calcium doses.

The seizures are part of MBD too - yes, bring his blood sugar up with some syrup. If I am not mistaken you are giving him 600mg a day right now?

[island rehabber]

You could not be in better hands on this planet than Nancy & Kim's. Do everything they tell you :):):thumbsup. If nutty had any type of seizure then his MBD is advanced and you must be absolutely DEVOTED to following the protocol in order to save him. He can be saved, and you can do it, with love and determination and your two angels Nancy & Kim. :bowdown:bowdown

[ninjasteve]

thanks crittermom... we are trying our best to give him that much.... so far he has around 250mg of supplemental calcium and 5 ccs of fv....we will put supplemental calcium in his dose of fv tonight..hopefully he will take it all in..
if he has a mini seizure tonight while we are sleeping i guess there is nothing we can do to get his sugar levels up because we wont know he had one or anything..it really stinks because we want him to get better at the snap of a finger..but we also know reality too..and we know its going to be a long process.. the good news is he is peeing regularly and he pooped more today and my wife took her finger and rubbed the bottom of his back feet and he reacted and jerked them back..so im hoping he is not paralyzed...
thanks so much again will keep u posted as much as i can..
hugs and kisses from nutty too :)

[ninjasteve]

thanks island rehabber... its reassuring to us that we can save him with alot of devotion and help...its frustrating too to see him in this condition...he has gotten better...so thats a plus..but i hate these little seizures he is having..thats discouraging...but at least they arent big ones and last long..

[ninjasteve]

one more thing... should we keep mixing a little syrup in the fv all the time? i dont want to give him sugar shock or anything? what do you think?? but i think the extra sweetness is helping him take it all in :)

[Nancy in New York]

I say whatever/however he will take it... do it. This is not the rule of thumb, but this is crisis. But as CritterMom said, if you mix the yogurt in that too that too will peak his interest.

As we were discussing earlier, you did raise concern about overdoing the calcium by giving the Fox Valley along with the extra calcium. My way of thinking is that since this is crutial to get the extra calcium into him, not to be concerned with combining that with the amount of calcium from the FV.

As I told Steve, Nutty actually is drinking some FV but not enough to make much of a difference with the calcium intake from the supplements. So there is no worry about overdosing with the Fox Valley and the extra calcium. This is just temporary anyway that's why it's emergency treatment. Then we scale back the additional calcium after a week.
And does anyone know how much calcium is actually in the Fox Valley?:dono

[astra]

I say whatever/however he will take it... do it. This is not the rule of thumb, but this is crisis. But as CritterMom said, if you mix the yogurt in that too that too will peak his interest.

As we were discussing earlier, you did raise concern about overdoing the calcium by giving the Fox Valley along with the extra calcium. My way of thinking is that since this is crutial to get the extra calcium into him, not to be concerned with combining that with the amount of calcium from the FV.

As I told Steve, Nutty actually is drinking some FV but not enough to make much of a difference with the calcium intake from the supplements.

And does anyone know how much calcium is actually in the Fox Valley?:dono
i think you are right, Nancy.
I do not know how much cal is in FV, but I agree that at this point an overdose is unlikely, since he's been deficient in it to begin with.
In fact, extra cal might be more helpful than harmful at this point.

[ninjasteve]

ok you got it nancy... we will keep supplementing it in with the fv...and then like you said we can scale back after some time..
he took 7cc's of fv with 150 mgs of supplemental calcium and then he took another 4 more ccs of regular fv.. so thats good...and we managed to get another dose of infant ibuprofen in him..he is not a fan of that...lol
we are going to turn back on his heating pad but this time put a few more blankies under him so he doesnt get too hot...
thanks :)

[SammysMom]

I'm probably stating the obvious but be sure to NOT put him directly on the heating pad. You don't want him to be able to chew the wire or the pad with the heating elements in it.:grouphug :grouphug :grouphug
It sounds like you are doing a great job taking good care of this little sweetie!:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

[ninjasteve]

hi sammysmom..thanks for the input...well the chord is away from him outside the corner of the cage..and the pad itself is under him but under like 4 other blankets..so he doesnt get too hot..earlier he seemed to have been a little too warm we think and the setting is on low...he was breathing kind of heavy and we think its because it was a little too much warmth..perhas we should just put half his body on it and half not??? i dont know..thanks..
he had 3 little mini seizures tonight ....sucks to see it happen..i assume we shouldnt be worried??? like this is def common?? no one has said to be worried yet and that its part of MBD...just want to be reassured everything seems A OK so far :)

[SammysMom]

Is it possible to put the heating pad under his cage bottom? I know that it is always recommended to have the pad away from the baby. If he isn't active maybe the blankets are enough of a deterrent,but maybe an expert will chime in on the subject.:thinking
As far as seizures go, I know they can be part of MBD, but they do take a lot out of them when they happen. Just keep doing what you are doing and they should stop as he improves.:grouphug

[astra]

hi sammysmom..thanks for the input...well the chord is away from him outside the corner of the cage..and the pad itself is under him but under like 4 other blankets..
no, please, put the heating pad UNDER the cage.
Do not put him directly on the pad, even with 4 blankies. He will move the blankies, will end up on top of the heating pad and will get burned and/or overheated.
Overheating is as dangerous and can be deadly.
He also might end up chewing through the pad.

The pad should be under the cage, never directly under the baby.

[ninjasteve]

well the heating pad is towards the bottom of his cage..as i said, there are like 4 layers under him so im thinking this should be ok as far as him not getting too warm???
and your right on the seizures...and we give him some syrup whenever he has one of those..its comforting to us that he isnt having any big ones..they are these little tiny mini ones..his head goes back a little and his stare is blank and he gasps for breath a couple of times and then he comes right out of it...within a few seconds... so again i want to make sure this is normal?
thanks :)

[UDoWhat]

Do you hear any clicking in his chest? I don't like the heavy breathing or the seizures. Was this a cat caught baby? I need to go back and read this entire post. Is he dehydrated?? Doesn't seem that he could be but too much heat could be a problem. Please do put is cage/box 1/2 on and 1/2 off the heating pad so he can move away from the heat if he needs to. Going to read the post for other clues.

Marty

[Nancy in New York]

For anyone new coming on I will try to capsulize this situation.
Nutty is a four year old grey squirrel who was found as an orphaned baby.
He was on a pretty crappy diet, which the mom and dad now know thanks to the board.
The other night, Wednesday I believe, they came home to find Nutty in his hammock almost comatose....lethargic. Nutty has no use really of his back legs now.
I was not on this emergency to start, CritterMom was.:bowdown She directed ninjasteve to do everything for MBD....and he is starting that protocol.
Now the problem appears to be these mini seizures that are coming. ninjasteve is giving a little syrup to get the blood sugars up when these occur.
Any input would be greatly appreciated and welcomed.

ninjasteve feel free to correct anything I have posted....I thought this would help so that people don't have to go back to read the whole thread.

[UDoWhat]

Has he been aspirated ? Did any formula get into his lungs? When did the heavy breathing start?

Marty

[Nancy in New York]

Has he been aspirated ? Did any formula get into his lungs? When did the heavy breathing start?

Marty

I think I can answer that. The heavy breathing started when he was on his heating pad on low, he had some covers over him. Steve took the covers off, and felt below to see how warm the pad was, and it was not overly warm at all. Right after that, Nutty had one of the mini seizures.
No aspiration that I'm aware of.

[UDoWhat]

I think I can answer that. The heavy breathing started when he was on his heating pad on low, he had some covers over him. Steve took the covers off, and felt below to see how warm the pad was, and it was not overly warm at all. Right after that, Nutty had one of the mini seizures.
No aspiration that I'm aware of.
I was just wondering if he might have a bacterial lung infection for some reason... along with what I too believe is MBD. During the seizures I would gently touch him so he knows you are there with him. Don't pick him up just a gentle touch or kind, gentle, words.

Marty

[ninjasteve]

yea there is no clicking in his breathing...his breathing is rather quiet..it was just heavy at the time but since has gone down to normal..and this last little tiny one was smaller then the other two and he quickly came out of it and his breathing wasnt too heavy at all...
we have like 4 layers between him and the heating pad...i felt where he is lying and it doesnt appear too warm at all...
my wife just checked on him and its not too hot at all on his blankets..and she went to check on him and he heard her and actually got his whole half of his body up to look at her.. woo hoo :) i think progress is getting better..
and he was found in a cemetery by my dog actually...eyes still shut and hardly any hair on him..we nursed him on puppys milk but i forget what kind we got...and his diet has been very calcium deficient...
thanks everyone :)

[ninjasteve]

yea i dont think he has a lung infection or anything..im obviously no expert but i know his breathing sounds quiet and fine...
and whenever he did have a mini, we do pet him and tell him softly that he wil be ok..im hoping they stop as he gets better...i guess thats the goal right? :)

[UDoWhat]

yea there is no clicking in his breathing...his breathing is rather quiet..it was just heavy at the time but since has gone down to normal..and this last little tiny one was smaller then the other two and he quickly came out of it and his breathing wasnt too heavy at all...
we have like 4 layers between him and the heating pad...i felt where he is lying and it doesnt appear too warm at all...
my wife just checked on him and its not too hot at all on his blankets..and she went to check on him and he heard her and actually got his whole half of his body up to look at her.. woo hoo :) i think progress is getting better..
and he was found in a cemetery by my dog actually...eyes still shut and hardly any hair on him..we nursed him on puppys milk but i forget what kind we got...and his diet has been very calcium deficient...
thanks everyone :)

I was just trying to cover all bases on the breathing issue. Continue as you are doing with the MBD protocol. I will check back in the a.m. Keep us posted on the seizing. Praying for you and your baby one. (Not so baby in age, I know).

Marty

Edit, You are doing great with him. It takes time to heal from MBD.

[ninjasteve]

no problem... i appreciate all the help i can get :).... i will keep posting his progress for sure... my wife is going to add a couple more layers of blankets because its getting a little toasty again and we dont want him getting too hot..he cant move that well and wont be able to crawl away from it... so we need to be super careful :) im stoked he "sat up like" to look at my wife :)

[Nancy in New York]

I was just trying to cover all bases on the breathing issue. Continue as you are doing with the MBD protocol. I will check back in the a.m. Keep us posted on the seizing. Praying for you and your baby one. (Not so baby in age, I know).

Marty

Edit, You are doing great with him. It takes time to heal from MBD.

Thanks so much Marty for your thoughts....much appreciated!!! Never hurts to cover all bases, good thinking! :Love_Icon

[Nancy in New York]

no problem... i appreciate all the help i can get :).... i will keep posting his progress for sure... my wife is going to add a couple more layers of blankets because its getting a little toasty again and we dont want him getting too hot..he cant move that well and wont be able to crawl away from it... so we need to be super careful :) im stoked he "sat up like" to look at my wife :)

I am thrilled about that too. You know, I wonder if you would just want to go with a rice buddy for the night so that you guys can get some sleep. Not sure you will be doing much sleeping if you feel you have to check the pad all the time. I know you would have to reheat the rice buddy, but at least you could sleep every couple of hours....:rotfl Is it warm in the room that Nutty is in?

[Jackie in Tampa]

please tell me he was pooped more...
we need poops...
you are doing great...i went back and read thread, will lurk
you have the best rehabbers helping you...
i would do what you are doing but allow to drink a syringe or two of clean water once a day between one of his treatments, a healthy flush:)
concentrate on a pureed food to help bowel movement immediately ...
do not allow him to get blockage...
keep changing the fluids, fv, ensure, molasses water, dilute pedialyte, calcium feedings...but keep him hydrated..

have you felt his spine, has his tail moved at all
when you poke the middle of foot sole does he react, pinch foot?

you want a barely warm spot, fist sized...if otherwise put blankets between heating pad and squirrel.

worth a try asking friends if they have human metacam/meloxicam or animal metacam in any form
or
tramadol
these would be ideal for pain.
ibuprophen can be hard on belly.
if this is diabetes related on top of mbd, his diet def needs changed...fruit and no veggies will be fatal.
how much does he weigh?
adding yogurt after the pain med will help with belly ache
3 & 4 y/o on a bad diet is prime age for mbd symptoms to present themselves..
long slow recovery....small cage, no jumping, brittle bones,
no junk food ever again etc...
i assume his teeth are good if cracking nuts..

thinking out loud
sending good vibes..

:Love_Icon nutty:Love_Icon

[ninjasteve]

hi jackie...no more poop yet... he has pooped everyday so far since he came down with this.. he had a little poop on wednesday and he had more poop thursday and more yesterday...so i dont think there is a problem of him pooping...???
we did feed him around 7.5 ccs of FV mixed with around 150 mgs of straight calcium...he got it all in and we gave him another dose of infant ibuprofen....we dont know where we can get metacam etc??? nancy gave us the infant stuff....
she also gave us HHB's...and also gave us her homemade boo balls..he sniffed one a little while ago but didnt want it....so at this time he is only taking the FV and pedialyte when we can get it into him...we will try regular water as well..oh wait my wife did get a little big of luke warm tap water into him...not much but some...we think he peed a little during the night again, he is moving more...he can move his upper half of his body pretty good..his arms are really responsive...his tail will move a little when we touch it..like twitches etc...not bushy though...and his back feet will react when she rubs her fingers against them..he will jerk them back a little..but he is getting more and more responive it seems...and luckily he hasnt gone into any mini seizures that we know of yet today...
his heat pad is working good, we keep feeling the blanket he is laying on and it feels a little warmish but not like it was..so we think its good at this point and we are keeping him covered up with my wifes shirt she wore the other night, to help make him more comfy...im just praying all will be alot better soon too...
any other suggestion is greatly appreciated..
as far as his weight..we are not sure..maybe a pound...so we are trying to get around 600mgs of straight calcium in him a day plus the FV at this point which i know has calcium...although no one is sure how much is in it??? but astra and nancy said its ok if he gets a little more in him at this point because of his deficiency...so he wont get over dosed at this point...
we also put a full spetrum light on him during the day for a while and we open his curtain and blinds to try and get some regular light in, although its winter now and the sun doesnt shine in too good at all..but its something im thinking? if i left anything out, i will post again after this
thanks everyone :)

[ninjasteve]

ok and we dont have plain yogurt in the house right now but we can look for some.. what kind would be good??
and yes before this whole ordeal he was cracking nuts constantly...his teeth are bright orange but i assume its from eating many carrots and not being able to brush his teeth? lol....ask my wife how good his teeth are since he has bit her twice now...but we know its because he is in pain and doesnt want us touching him...but as i said he is getting better
thanks alot :)

[island rehabber]

Nonono -- orange is GOOD in a squirrel :D! Their teeth are supposed to be orange, it's a protective coating.
Calcium can be constipating, but he needs it so badly right now I wouldn't worry. Just be sure he is taking as many fluids as possible to keep things moving.

[Nancy in New York]

Try a little bit of apple juice too, that may help him.
I have also heard that some orange juice is also good, just dilute it a little.... 1/2 water, 1/2 OJ.
Also get some canned pumpkin, NOT the pie filling, just plain pumpkin. That may also help.

[ninjasteve]

thanks everyone...we are fighting him again to get the fv with calcium in him but he did poop again...woohoo :)...what a little fighter he is... lol..and man did he chatter at me when i walked in there to look at him..as if to say, get out of my room lol
thanks everyone :)

[ninjasteve]

another update...we got the full 7.5 ccs of fv with calcium into him but he was more uncooperative than before..so my wife had to keep sneaking it into him from the side of his mouth...is this normal where sometimes he acts like he wants it and then other times its such a big task??gets frustrating...again good news is no mini seizures...and we also got another dose of the ibuprofen in him...nothing else though...so no water mixture or anything...we dont want to over stress him either..he is tired acting now because of the fight he put up .lol
thanks :)

[patjones]

Just lurking and watching just wanted to tell you I am glad he is doing a little better

[ninjasteve]

thanks pat...much appreciated.. :) and im sure from here on out it can only get better and better :)
thanks again to all on TSB

[CritterMom]

Break off a chunk of one of the calcium pills you are using and pop it in your mouth and chew it up. Yes, I am serious. Does it taste horrible? If so, that is the problem.

I have some straight calcium powder I would be happy to send you - you are not that far from me and it won't take long to get there. I tasted it today and it has NO flavor at all.

PM me your address and it will go out on Monday. The powder is a million times easier, too.

[ninjasteve]

ok crittermom you got it...thanks a ton for that...its much appreciated..
good news..we stepped out to the store, got home and went to check on nutty...he moved himself completely off the blankets and was looking out the window...still isnt really moving his back legs..but hey its a huge step so far :)

[ninjasteve]

by the way crittermom...we are mixing it with the fv and a dab of maple syrup :) but apparently he still can taste it anyways....lol

[UDoWhat]

I just got back from a trip....

The fact that it's been several days now and Nutty is still not responding fully to the calcium is very concerning. I don't think you're giving the calcium OFTEN enough. It's also possible there is another problem such as diabetes of course.

This is how I have seen the best success in dealing with a severe case of MBD.



If Nutty doesn't respond to this within 24-48 hours (no more seizures, appetite improves), then the prognosis is not very good. Or it may suggest another problem, such as a broken leg, pelvis, or back due to brittle bones. Or more remotely, some kind of head injury from a fall, or even diabetes, although we haven't to my knowledge seen seizures/paralysis from diabetes. In the remote chance that it's diabetes, I would definitely cut out the fruit, syrup and sweets right now.

I hope this helps.
This is great advice from 4skwerlz. Unless he just won't take the Ca without the sweet stuff. If that is the case, use the sweet juices/ fluids to get him to take the Ca. I agree it does sound like severe MBD and the calcium has to be given to him. It will save his life. Try some flavored yogurt (strawberry, blueberry, vanilla) The apple juice or applesauce watered down may make the "medicine go down" easier. Also as Jackie suggested give him some plain water too. He needs that too.

Marty

You are in great hands here. I will lurk and watch if needed.

[ninjasteve]

ok your going to give my wife a stroke over here....i know your just trying to give us good advice and we do truly apreciate everyones input but there seems to be conflicting information at times....
if you read back in the thread you will see how we are saying he seems to be getting better...although his back legs arent working it seems, when we rub the bottom of his feet he does react a little to it by either moving them back a little or turning his foot up a little, his tail reacts a little as well......yesterday his reactions for his tail and feet and legs seemed better...not sure why but there is still a little movement in them when touched certain ways...his whole upper half of his body is working just fine...he can move his head better...like sit it up to look at us when we come in the room...he is peeing and pooping.. and as of today, as far as we know, he hasnt had any seizures at all...so we strongly believe he is getting better..please dont discourage us from how we believe :) lol...we arent giving him any fruit....the only sweet thing he gets is when we add a couple little drops of maple syrup into the FV...thats it...and when he did have a few mini seizures last night we gave him a little maple syrup to get his sugars levels back up..we were told the seizures is part of MBD...we were also told that this is going to be a long process of him getting healthier..so we figured if its baby steps of improvement then its better than none at all or having get worse...him not wanting any solid type of food sucks but what can we do?? he feels terrible still im sure...how many of us want to eat when we feel like utter crap?? yesterday he wanted the FV but for some reason today we are battling him with it BUT we are getting it into him...we give it to him from the side of his mouth..and he is taking it in..
as far as getting him calcium every two hours?? we go back to work on monday..thats not possible and we were told giving it to him 4 times a day is fine too...and we were told at least 500mgs a day but then jackie said 600..so if we split up 4 doses of 150 each plus the FV which has calcium, then shouldnt that be good enough??? he took a little water earlier but not much...we did not give him anymore pedialyte as we were advised not to for longer than 24 hours...
thanks i think i said everything i wanted to...lol

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

Just lurking and watching just wanted to tell you I am glad he is doing a little better
me too lurking and learning

[ninjasteve]

thanks marty.... we were going to try some yogurt earlier but was told by kim not to bother with it yet...same as solid foods like avocado etc..we have all we can do to get the fv in him anyways...
again some improvement is better than none? or am i wrong here? lol.. you guys are the experts here but it gets discouraging when i read different things...

[UDoWhat]

thanks marty.... we were going to try some yogurt earlier but was told by kim not to bother with it yet...same as solid foods like avocado etc..we have all we can do to get the fv in him anyways...
again some improvement is better than none? or am i wrong here? lol.. you guys are the experts here but it gets discouraging when i read different things...
YES any progress is good. If he has not had any seizures today or even not as many that also is progress. As for food, WHATEVER he will take... give it to him. Sweet or not sweet. (IMO)FV, Ensure, WHATEVER he will eat. Let's get him over the hump Calcium 'wise". We all do things just a bit differently but the common thread is calcium in. I think by Monday 4x per day is good. Do the best you can do. I usually do 4-5x per day, myself. I feel you are doing a great job. We all do. Keep us posted.

Marty

[ninjasteve]

ok marty will do....the only thing is he goes longer during the night without getting an Ca but he is getting the dosage we were told to per day at this point..keep in mind he just started on the fv yesterday afternoon...so today is really a full day of giving that to him..:)
thanks alot :)

[CritterMom]

Why don't you try making a couple of the little peanut butter or almond butter/calcium balls like 4skwerlz suggested tomorrow - see if he is willing to try them. If so, you can leave him some sitting close to him where he can get them on Monday...he may administer the calcium to himself by then...

[ninjasteve]

we may end up doing that...he has boo balls here, thanks to nancy, he smells them but doesnt want them..so we were told to make a peanut butter water and dip those into it , let it dry and see if he will want it then.. so we are trying that first..
thanks again to everyone trying to help.. :)

[SammysMom]

Just a suggestion, Sammy was a pill about calcium when we went through his bout of early stage MBD. The only thing I could use that covered it was Nutella. If I remember correctly I squashed up boo balls he wouldn't eat and added the Nutella and he ate them. It is not a good regular food for them as it is way too sweet, but in a pinch it worked. :grouphug

[UDoWhat]

Yes, try what 4S and Crittermom have suggested then by Mon you will be able to see if he will eat them himself. If not , try to give him the calcium 4 x per day or even 1 dose in the middle of the night.( 2-3 a.m.) I know that might not be possible. Even if only for a week. BUT let's hope he tries the "do it yourself" method.

Marty

[SammysMom]

4S, you always help!!!:thumbsup

[ninjasteve]

yea we will try ....as i said he has no interest in eating at this point..we are getting fv into him by the side of his mouth...he doesnt fight much that way and he does take it in....kind of weird because yesterday he seemed to have loved the fv...we are going to try and mix half ensure and half fv...lets pray he likes that... ughh why cant anything be easy? lol :)
thanks all

[ninjasteve]

ok 4s.... no problem... i understand...but we were told even 4 times a day is fine...so today in total he will have 600mgs of straight calcium plus the fv which has calcium in it...so thats not enough???? we dont want to over do it either...at this point its def force feeding him anyways..we tried the boo ball rolled in peanut butter water mixture and he wanted nothing to do with it..he smelled it but said no thanks....
he did just have a mini seizure , but thats the first one today that we know of and what happened was my wife took his blanket off him as he peed again and got pee on his sock buddy..well once she took his sock buddy from him, he flipped out and threw himself in a little seizure.... so that was a bummer..but what can we do?? we gave him a cc and a half of water maple syrup to get his blood sugar levels back up and his breathing was a little heavier because of the seizure so we are waiting to get that back down and then its feeding number 4 for today...
thanks

[ninjasteve]

does anyone know how much ca a squirrel will absorb at one time?? maybe that would help alot to know and whether its critical to be giving him more often than 4 times a day??? but come monday it will be difficult to do this as we need to work...
thanks

[ninjasteve]

well we are not just giving him fv...we are adding 150 mgs of calcium in that.. so thats not ok?? im confused now...

[Margie]

How often are you giving the ibuprofen? You have to be careful with pain relievers in animals. They are metabolized by the liver and it is a much slower process in small animals than it is in people. The medication can accumulate in the body and cause toxicity. This will first cause loss of appetite.

[ninjasteve]

thank you 4s for your input, help and concern...however if you read back in the thread, you will see where i said we were giving him fv with 150mgs of supplemental ca....every 4 hours...and so far we gave him 2 doses at .12 cc of ibuprofen yesterday and 3 times today but we did not give him anymore and we wont..we will monitor how he seems with pain..although so far he doesnt seem to be in alot of pain...just a little while ago we actually mixed half ensure with half fv and this time 225 mgs of calcium and he took in a total of 15 ccs...i would say thats awesome wouldnt you?? and he peed alot tonight...
and that seizure he had was very little...he arched his head back and his legs got a little stiff and then he was out of it within a matter of 7 seconds..so i dont see that as being a very bad seizure..i had a dog who was epileptic so i know how bad seizures can be... and right after he had that little one, he had more movement in his feet and tail...which is good i think...so all in all he is doing better than he was for sure... he came down with this late tuesday night but unfortunatley we couldnt really get anything into him until wednesday morning around 9:30....and just started using the fv yesterday afternoon and he has come a long way with that...so thanks again for the advice and help..will keep you posted...

[ninjasteve]

no i know 4s...im not saying anyone gave me wrong advice..but there has been conflicting information which can make it seem confusing and frustrating because it sends your head spinning and not knowing what EXACTLY to do.. but all is good..we appreciate any feedback,..but again he is doing better and we have seen some great improvement from yesterday AM until now...:)

[UDoWhat]

thank you 4s for your input, help and concern...however if you read back in the thread, you will see where i said we were giving him fv with 150mgs of supplemental ca....every 4 hours...and so far we gave him 2 doses at .12 cc of ibuprofen yesterday and 3 times today but we did not give him anymore and we wont..we will monitor how he seems with pain..although so far he doesnt seem to be in alot of pain...just a little while ago we actually mixed half ensure with half fv and this time 225 mgs of calcium and he took in a total of 15 ccs...i would say thats awesome wouldnt you?? and he peed alot tonight...
and that seizure he had was very little...he arched his head back and his legs got a little stiff and then he was out of it within a matter of 7 seconds..so i dont see that as being a very bad seizure..i had a dog who was epileptic so i know how bad seizures can be... and right after he had that little one, he had more movement in his feet and tail...which is good i think...so all in all he is doing better than he was for sure... he came down with this late tuesday night but unfortunatley we couldnt really get anything into him until wednesday morning around 9:30....and just started using the fv yesterday afternoon and he has come a long way with that...so thanks again for the advice and help..will keep you posted...

This does sound better. We all want this sweet squirrel to pull through and get better. This is a serious illness but he can get better. 4S has outlined the best plan for him. Please keep us posted. I will be praying for you, your wife, and your sweet squirrel.

Marty

[ninjasteve]

thank you marty and i hope that you guys dont think i seemed upset because im def not.....i just wasnt sure if 4s read the entire thread because it does say in here that he is getting better.. :)
no seizure is good but i would rather he had a tiny one now and then as a result of mbd than a really big one...agreed? :)
thanks for all your prayers, concern and help :)

[UDoWhat]

thank you marty and i hope that you guys dont think i seemed upset because im def not.....i just wasnt sure if 4s read the entire thread because it does say in here that he is getting better.. :)
no seizure is good but i would rather he had a tiny one now and then as a result of mbd than a really big one...agreed? :)
thanks for all your prayers, concern and help :)
YES no seizures is best... but big one's we really don't want. :nono Prayers and more prayers. No worries we are all here to help each other and our beloved squirrels.

Marty

[CritterMom]

I know this is scary because it is your little boy. But 4skwerlz wants you to know what you are up against.

For Sunday, why don't you try to get some calcium into him every 2 hours - break your dosages up so he is getting more, smaller doses.

Do either of you work close enough to home that you could use your lunch hour to blast home and give him a dose mid-day once you go back to work?

[ninjasteve]

ok we wil try that..good news is he took in 23 ccs this AM of half ensure and haf fv with around 240 mgs of ca...so thats good..he is still really alert and responsive and his back legs, feet and tail seem to be a little more reactive to touch...so thats good..
yes my wife works close to home so she willl be coming here during lunch to feed him etc :)
thanks alot

[island rehabber]

ok we wil try that..good news is he took in 23 ccs this AM of half ensure and haf fv with around 240 mgs of ca...so thats good..he is still really alert and responsive and his back legs, feet and tail seem to be a little more reactive to touch...so thats good..
yes my wife works close to home so she willl be coming here during lunch to feed him etc :)
thanks alot

That's such good news! Keep up the good work! :thumbsup

[ninjasteve]

thank you island rehabber...we were thrilled he took that much in...we just fed him a little while ago but he only took in 9 ccs total including the supplemental ca...but i suppose its to be expected as he had a big hearty breakfast :)....
we are going to get some yogurt today and see if he will take that in...full fat kind like yobaby or stonefield or something...and we will try him again with a loveball...at least his appetite seems to be getting better... i know this is going to be a long process so we just need to keep chugging along and as long as he is progressing then thats good :)\
thanks alot!!

[CritterMom]

The Yobaby is unbelievably delicious - I detest yogurt and I always steal a spoonful of this - vanilla is excellent, banana too - I found pear ONE TIME and P and I fought over it...

It is also REALLY digestible - it is designed for human infants.

[ninjasteve]

ok cool...we will get that then....:) thanks for all of the advice and help...all of you are awesome...

[SammysMom]

So happy to see things are going along so well! You are doing a great job an getting help from some of the best "squ-xperts" on TSB! :thumbsup

[ninjasteve]

thank you so much sammysmom....we are getting ready to feed him now..and we went out and got some yobaby yogurt..apple and sweet tater flavor...we figured since he loves sweet taters perhaps he may want this :)
thanks alot

[CritterMom]

You can mix the yogurt right into the FV and the flavor of it may make him want to eat more of it.:thumbsup

[ninjasteve]

well as of right now we are mixing ensure with the fv..but we should mix a little yogurt in that as well??? we gave him around 1 cc of the yogurt..he wasnt a big fan..we think its the texture thing as he kept wiping off his face as if to say ka ka momma, its sticky..lol
we did manage to get around 18ccs of the ensure/fv plus supplemental ca...so he does like that..and he did pee a little more..he pooped a good amount today as well..thought i would share and its lighter brown in color..
i wish he would eat more solid foods but im not going to complain..he seems to be doing better and is taking more fv/ensure in...so i think thats good.. no seizures today that we know of.. :thumbsup

[CritterMom]

If he is happy with the ensure/FV blend and is eating that well, that is great. He is getting all of the nutrients and stuff he needs and I am sure as he starts to feel better he will start eating solids, which will be including the rodent blocks this time around!

The poops will be light on the FV.

[ninjasteve]

yea maybe we will just keep doing what we are doing and not mix it with yogurt right?? because as i said he is eating it...
def rodent blocks this time around...i will NOT go through this again..i feel so bad for poor little boy..:) he knows he is loved and will be taken care of...he is a fighter, thats for sure :)
thanks everyone as always

[UDoWhat]

well as of right now we are mixing ensure with the fv..but we should mix a little yogurt in that as well??? we gave him around 1 cc of the yogurt..he wasnt a big fan..we think its the texture thing as he kept wiping off his face as if to say ka ka momma, its sticky..lol
we did manage to get around 18ccs of the ensure/fv plus supplemental ca...so he does like that..and he did pee a little more..he pooped a good amount today as well..thought i would share and its lighter brown in color..
i wish he would eat more solid foods but im not going to complain..he seems to be doing better and is taking more fv/ensure in...so i think thats good.. no seizures today that we know of.. :thumbsup

Happy Day!!!This is great news. As Crittermom has said he is getting all the nutrients, calories, etc that he needs in a liquid diet for now. His jaws could also be sore as a result of the MBD so don't worry about a bunch of solids for now. Soon he will be back to normal. Add the solids as you can and as Nutty will accept them and eat them comfortably. I am so pleased with the amounts of liquid nutrition he is taking in. :thumbsup You are doing a great job!

Marty

[ninjasteve]

thank you marty..as i said before if it wasnt for us finding TSB and getting so much great help on here, who knows what would have happened .. yea im thinking the same thing..as long as he keeps getting his good dosage of ca and keeps taking in a good amount of fv/ensure then i aint complaining..it will be a matter of time before he is a ton better and hopefully moving around his cage..still not as much reaction in his tail and his legs that we would like but its early still.. and there is a little bit of reaction which is better than none right?
thanks again

[Nancy in New York]

Just thought I would post a couple of photos of little Nutty. What an adorable squirrel he is. He is so lucky to have you both....what great parents....:bowdown :bowdown

This was before Nutty was feeling bad, but this is also what he will be looking like again shortly.....:)

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_03601.jpg

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_04421.jpg

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_10011.jpg

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_10071.jpg

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_03621.jpg

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/TSB%20photos/IMG_10311.jpg

We love you Nutty!!!!!!:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

[ninjasteve]

awww he our little man :)...and he says thanks to all of you and he loves you too!!!:grouphug

[UDoWhat]

thank you marty..as i said before if it wasnt for us finding TSB and getting so much great help on here, who knows what would have happened .. yea im thinking the same thing..as long as he keeps getting his good dosage of ca and keeps taking in a good amount of fv/ensure then i aint complaining..it will be a matter of time before he is a ton better and hopefully moving around his cage..still not as much reaction in his tail and his legs that we would like but its early still.. and there is a little bit of reaction which is better than none right?
thanks again

Oh my yessssssssssssssssssss. If there is some response in his tail and legs it is a very promising sign. He will be stronger and stronger day by day. Also, thank you Nancy for posting the pictures of Nutty. What a handsome boy!!

Marty

[Jackie in Tampa]

I just love him already:Love_Icon
Get well little buddy!:grouphug

[island rehabber]

Nutty is beautiful! And he's got a dream team here working for him that can't be beat....prayers and good energies going out to you, Nutty, for a total recovery! :grouphug

[ninjasteve]

yes thank you very much nancy for posting those pics....i cant wait until he is like that again :)
we just played around with his legs and tail again... not much reaction in either...a little reaction in his legs...took a little while of stimulation...his tail didnt react much at all , then again, he knows mama is touching him so he may be relaxed and not want to move em at all..unless we make him do it a little lol

[ninjasteve]

aww thanks everyone for all your prayers and support :):grouphug

[SammysMom]

He is totally adorable! You keep up all the good loving care! TSB will keep up the prayers and great information. It is what TSB does best! :grouphug :grouphug :grouphug

[ninjasteve]

thanks both of you guys...he def wants to move..he was just flailing around with his upper body just now and he moved himself a little bit...poor little guy...
thanks for all the support...its almost feeding time...will keep you posted :)

[mpetys]

Hi ninjasteve! I'm a lurker, been following Nutty's progress and praying for a complete recovery. You are in good hands here with the folks who have been helping you. I had to come out of lurkdom when I saw the photos Nancy posted. Nutty is so adorable. Continued prayers for both you and Nutty! :grouphug :grouphug

[Nancy in New York]

Hi ninjasteve! I'm a lurker, been following Nutty's progress and praying for a complete recovery. You are in good hands here with the folks who have been helping you. I had to come out of lurkdom when I saw the photos Nancy posted. Nutty is so adorable. Continued prayers for both you and Nutty! :grouphug :grouphug

Glad that you came out....:) It just makes it so much more personal when you can see the little one that we are all praying for, doesn't it? Now he belongs to all of us.....right? I mean once a picture is posted....:tilt

[mpetys]

Glad that you came out....:) It just makes it so much more personal when you can see the little one that we are all praying for, doesn't it? Now he belongs to all of us.....right? I mean once a picture is posted....:tilt

That is exactly right. Makes a big difference! Nutty's image is now engraved in my heart!

[ninjasteve]

aww thank you guys.. nutty thanks everyone on here so hugs and kisses from all of us :)..
update... last night he took in around 19 ccs... and this AM around 20 ccs and wanted it even more this time..so thats good..he peed alot..so we cleaned that all up...we feel so sorry for him because his upper body moves great but his poor lower half he cant seem to move.. i know its going to be a long process and could take some time before he can move more freely down there.. just gets a little discouraging at times.. but we know he is doing better over all and we have complete confidence he will be healthy again soon :)....
oh and at each feeding he gets 225mgs of supplmental ca 4 times a day.. so thats 900mgs plus whats in the ensure/fv mixture... i assume this is more than enough?? we dont want to overdose either...but he seems good with it so far..
thanks alot everyone :)

[Jackie in Tampa]

whoa..
I may be outta line...
But as a person who has turned MBD around numerous times...
including sqs with seizures, paralysis...
hate to step on toes here...but that's alot of cal...
:shakehead :peace

[CritterMom]

Yeah, that is more than he should need. I would drop it back to 600 at least. Isn't our starting protocol 5-600mgs? Too much doesn't help any faster... Don't worry about trying to count what is in the FV, but do drop the total per day quantity back.:thumbsup It is more important to try to evenly spread them out through the day to the best degree you can while working than to give huge amounts.

You need to keep an eye on his belly and around his genitals - if he is not grooming himself you wll need to start wiping him down regularly - I would just use a washcloth dipped in warm water and wrung out. If urine sits on his skin for any length of time he will get all irritated from it like a baby with diaper rash.

[Jackie in Tampa]

goal at my house is to slowly get 500mg a day of calcium mixture in them over a 24 hour period...
this with nutrition fluids should be fine.
I rotate fluids throught the day also..
going between diluted molasses water , Fv, Ensure or Boost and a few sips of plain water between, in addition to the calcium mixture.
if his bladder doesn't empty completely...there is the possibility of sepsis..
please research here and on the web... expressing the bladder maybe needed. If he is constantly wet, he is dribbling and his bladder is not completely empty...
if so...it's dangerous...
I am not trying to scare you...but you need to know what to watch for.
Is he changing positions or just laying still?
Be careful, but do not allow him to remain in same position...he needs to be massaged in the lower half gently...he needs circulation..
are his feet still nice and warm:thumbsup
are his ears normal? or are they pleated, pinched or laying down?
if so this can indicate pain... MBD hurts...
really...like deep bone aches...keeping him warm will help.

Don't despair...most sqs can recover enough to have a semi normal life...
I have a 9.5 year old sq that has hurdled with one tooth...so with the right diet...your sweetie can too!
Go slow and consistant...
thanks ...I can feel the love:Love_Icon

[ninjasteve]

ok we can go back down with the ca... the way 4s was talking he would be getting that amount a day in him anyhow.. and i talked to a rehabber who originally was ok with the 600 a day until a couple others on here acted like he should have more..so she called her vet who said at this point giving him the extra amount wouldnt hurt him because of his deficiency... whatever he doesnt use he will pee out etc... but we can cut back now?? he hasnt been getting that much for more than day or so now??
and he changed positions himself last night BUT only his upper body as his lower half doesnt move..we can massage his legs and feet for sure..and yes his feet are warm..and his pads are pink...
his ears for the most part of up like normal..somtimes they go down but i think its when he gets irritated because we are right there bothering him etc.lol...as he chitters at us lol...
we been putting a washcloth rolled up between his legs in front of his peepee and he has been soaking that up..and the rest of him feels dry.. he was starting to get pinkish down there but now that we been putting that cloth down there is no more pink...
not sure if i left anything else..
as i said before, we are both working and there is no one at home all day to give him more frequent doses... so we give him a feeding and dose in the AM around 7 or so and then again at noon and again at 5 and then again before we go to bed...not sure of any other way..
thanks guys

[Jackie in Tampa]

:thumbsup he is your sq...all we can do is give you advise...
the decisions are ultimately yours...you are his eyes and ears etc...
we are not vets, however most vets are NOT in tune with sqs and their particulars, trust me on that!
I have been taking sqs to vets {many many} for several years and never have I had a vet tell me the actual calcium intake amounts...
there are only a few REAL SQ vets in the USA, and it's because they like them, not because they study them, no one does...no money in sqs, they are ilegal in most states....sad but true.
You will find more sq info here on TSB than most laces...
however you need to start reading threads to pick up what works etc...
we all have our own ideas and agendas...
It sounds that even with you both working, you will be fine...:thumbsup
hugs to you for doing your all for him...:grouphug really...TY!

[ninjasteve]

no i know..your right... all we can do is read up and talk with you guys on TSB.. this is a great forum..without it he may not be here right now... but as i said, we are also working with a licensed rehabber from this forum.. i talk to her a zillion times on the phone a day about all of this.. i talked to her again a little while ago about what was posted and she said fine no biggie.. dont give him any Ca at lunchtime..and give him 100mgs at 5 and then 100 more before we go to bed..so he will have 425 in supplemental ca and whatever he gets from his formula/ensure mixture... which he seems to love..
we dont EVER want anything to happen to our little baby so we do appreciate the help and advice..it gets overwhelming at times on here though because some people say to do this and then some say do that and then you say thats too much ca now.. i hope you understand where we are coming from..its been a very stressful last 4 or 5 days and all we want to do is get our nutty better and hope for the best all the time.. :)
thanks everyone!

[ninjasteve]

ok 4s no problem..understandable.. BUT as i said we can not do this during the week as we have to work..he can only get it 4 times a day OR we could split it up more frequently at night when we get home??
thanks

[Nutty's Mama]

Hello everyone, this is Nutty's mom, Fawn. I just wanted to personally thank everyone that has helped Steve, myself and of course Nutty through this hard time. To think back that only a couple of days ago I thought that I could possibly be loosing my little man and now he is acting so much better and slowly becoming himself again - brings tears to my eyes.
If it wasnt for all of your advice, prayers and warm wishes, I dont know where we would be today. So again, thank you!!!!:thankyou

[ninjasteve]

ok you got it...but the only thing right now is, yesterday was his first full day of full nutrition...we even put a nut in front of him to see how he would react, he didnt want it, and the loveballs, same thing, so he is not eating any actual solid food.. so we cant sprinkle anything for him to nibble on because he isnt nibbling lol..we will try though..perhaps tomorrow.. like i said, lunchtime he wont get any supplemental ca and then he will get 100 at dinner and 100 before bed..totaling 425... sound good?
thanks

[Nancy in New York]

Hello everyone, this is Nutty's mom, Fawn. I just wanted to personally thank everyone that has helped Steve, myself and of course Nutty through this hard time. To think back that only a couple of days ago I thought that I could possibly be loosing my little man and now he is acting so much better and slowly becoming himself again - brings tears to my eyes.
If it wasnt for all of your advice, prayers and warm wishes, I dont know where we would be today. So again, thank you!!!!:thankyou

Welcome to TSB....all I can say is that I know the love and devotion that you and Steve have for your little Nutty. You both are fantastic people and he is one lucky squirrel to have found his way into your lives....:bowdown :bowdown :bowdown

[ninjasteve]

hi 4s..yea nutty is taking alot in now..he took in around 19ccs last night of half FV mixed with half ensure and this AM around 20ccs... so a good amount of that he is taking in..
we didnt try a block this AM as we knew his belly is really full and he was sort of sleepy after filling him up..my wife is going to put a block in there after feeding him at noon and also a loveball....so we will see.. hopefully he will nibble on it...
thanks :)

[CritterMom]

Hi, guys - I know, all is very confusing.

I would rather see Nutty get a small amount of calcium today when you go home for lunch. Give him the 100mg you were talking about doing later in the day. Even though you gave him a bunch this morning, his body will have discarded (through urine) what he couldn't absorb by lunch, and he will need another dose.

Will he lick a little bit of peanut butter off your finger? If he will, you can mix a bit of the calcium with a little PB and roll it into a little ball and leave a few with him so he can eat them while you are gone, and he will get little doses of calcium all day long.

[ninjasteve]

hi crittermom...well we tried putting some PB on a loveball and he didnt want it..and then my wife had a little pb on her finger and he didnt want it, so i doubt at this time he will want it....
again we thank all of you for the input.. we just want him feeling alot better soon ... :)
thanks 4s...i will pm you if i need more help..if you want to post on the thread you can.. im not upset lol... we are just trying to do what works for our schedules too...as i said we have to work... i wish we were millionaires..if we were we would be rehabbers as well and have a house full of nuttys lol

[Nutty's Mama]

i wish we were millionaires..if we were we would be rehabbers as well and have a house full of nuttys lol

Not only Nuttys but all the other little wild critters we could get our hands on to help :)

[Sissy]

Listen to Kim, she is the best you will ever find!!! I've been lurking and just wanted to send some prayers and healing thoughts to Nutty. :Love_Icon

[ninjasteve]

ok no problem 4s :) ... i didnt want to say her name on here as i wasnt sure she wanted it to be known lol.. no problem... there was some confusion but thanks for clearing it up..
my wife went home to find nutty on the other side of his cage.. he moved on his own..im sure he dragged himself..and he pooped all over.. looked normal..light tan..and peed as well... he was shivering a little because he didnt have much to cover up with..so she put him back on that and turned the pad on for him..and put another layer between him and the pad.. just in case he got a little toastier..someone will be there around 2:45 to check on him anyhow. he got about 100mgs of ca plus 11ccs total of the FV/ensure.. he took it down ok..so i think he is doing really well now. :)

[ninjasteve]

update... checked on nutty and now he is half way off his blankets looking out the window chattering... so im thinking he is really starting to come around now.. woohoo :)....it wont be long and he will be back to his silly self, climbing the cage, doing backflips and just being nutty..
will keep you updated on more..thanks everyone :)

[CritterMom]

So here is a way to start tricking him into eating some solid food, and getting him used to the taste of it, since it is new to him.

I know Nancy sent you some Boo Balls and also some of the Henry’s blocks. Chop or grind couple of them up – you can even do one of each. Then mix in enough of the FV/ensure stuff he is eating and liking into them so you have a sloppy consistency sort of like cream of wheat. Warm it for a couple seconds in the microwave and try offering him a little bit with a spoon – it should smell familiar to him because he is already eating the FV and ensure. You may want to wait until he is a little hungry to try this. If he likes it you are halfway to getting him to eat the plain blocks. I make something similar for my boy (I use yogurt instead of the FV) and he LOVES it – lots of time I give him his “oatmeal” at night before he goes to bed!

I would keep him restricted to only part of his cage for a bit - looks like a ferret cage that you can block access to the levels with. His bones are very fragile right now - it will take some time before he gets all of the bone mass he has lost back - and you don't want him to injure himself because he is feeling better. This is good news, though!

[ninjasteve]

ok sounds good.. we will try it if not tonight perhaps tomorrow he will be even better... we do have to make sure he is pretty hungry..we got lots of time yet :).. we will need to figure out a way so he cant hurt himself as he gets more mobile though...
thanks

[CritterMom]

Lots of padding on the cage bottom - an old blanket or comforter or something so if he falls, it isn't on the hard cage bottom.

[ninjasteve]

0k will do... we have had him confined to the upper level anyhow.. and we took out his half shelf and ramp as well... so we will put extra padding etc tonight, in case he manages to start climbing a little...
thanks alot :)

[Nutty's Mama]

Update: I was sitting here in the computer room and I heard this clinking noise - I got up to see what it was and there was Nutty drinking from his water bottle!! :wahoo Steve was in the room with him and said he had been doing so for the past 3-4 minutes. I watched for a couple seconds and noticed that the towel under the water bottle was very wet, so I know that he was also playing with the water bottle. I dont know how much he actually drank but Im sure it was a good amount. This makes me so happy and I feel that we are on a great road to recovery. Go Nutty Go!!:D

[mpetys]

Sounds great. It must have sounded like music to your ears!

[ninjasteve]

oh yes it was music to our ears BUT the little booger got filled up on h2o and didnt take as much formula in ... so we need to be careful he doesnt get a ton of water in him and not much of the good stuff :) lol...boy is he in for a rude awakening when he cant do what he wants lol
thanks everyone

[Nancy in New York]

oh yes it was music to our ears BUT the little booger got filled up on h2o and didnt take as much formula in ... so we need to be careful he doesnt get a ton of water in him and not much of the good stuff :) lol...boy is he in for a rude awakening when he cant do what he wants lol
thanks everyone

That little stinker....:D

[ninjasteve]

thats what i said.. and then when my wife went to feed him he only took in 9 ccs total, so we know he got filled up on water...and then this AM he put up a fight and wouldn only take around 10 ccs.. so who knows, maybe he got more water into him overnight... either way, we want him to have as much good stuff as possible.. so out comes the water bottle at lunchtime lol

[Nancy in New York]

thats what i said.. and then when my wife went to feed him he only took in 9 ccs total, so we know he got filled up on water...and then this AM he put up a fight and wouldn only take around 10 ccs.. so who knows, maybe he got more water into him overnight... either way, we want him to have as much good stuff as possible.. so out comes the water bottle at lunchtime lol

Yup, that's what I would do....or when you do have it in, just offer less than an inch. At least he's staying hydrated....:D

[Nutty's Mama]

Also, since he didnt have much of a breakfast this morning, I left him a love ball and an HHB so Im hoping that when I go home at lunch time, he will have munched a little on either one....fingers crossed :)

[ninjasteve]

update...nutty got in around 17ccs at dinner with 125mgs of supplemental calcium...and he was motoring around in his cage a little...crawling, he went to one corner then another...after my wife got his formula and stuff into him, he was like really pooped looking, closing his eyes, i assume from moving around so much, and he is warm but he shivers..like these tremor things...but i know he is not going in a seizure..ok and we just looked at him again and the bogger is in the other corner again...wide eyed and looks fine..im just curious on the shivers??i dont hear any noise from it though...
thanks everyone :)

[ninjasteve]

thanks 4s...i called her earlier and told her...she said not to be alarmed...and it could be him checking his teeth etc she said hamilton was doing it or something......like i said it didnt look to be an onset of a seizure...and i actually dont think he is doing it anymore..just curious as to what others may think.. :)

[ninjasteve]

and he is getting 600mgs a day...150mgs 4 times a day..
fawn checked on him and he was starting to go to sleep but no more shivers she said...so not sure what it is..just wanted to get others input..not that i would ever doubt kim :)

[ninjasteve]

yea that is all he is getting now.....so the purr is a silent one right???
because i didnt hear any noise at all... im a worry wart...my wife even said to stop worrying lol...i just dont recall seeing that before..but my wife said he has done it a few times before...

[Nancy in New York]

I'm a worrier too Steve.....just the way I am. How is the heating pad working? Does it seem to be getting too warm?
Did you remove his water bottle? Did he eat any of the HHB's?
Give that little one a big hug for me.....:grouphug

[ninjasteve]

i talked to kim again and i told her i never doubt her, but it is nice to hear what others say as well.... i guess when i used the word tremors, it wasnt right,,,yes they were vibrations that came on for like 2 seconds and then off and then on and then off..that type...
thanks everyone :)
nutty is all done getting a little wash down...we used a syringe of your nancy and i filled up a cup of warm water and we laid him on his back on a towel and put him an inclince so when i shot the water on his belly and testicles area, it ran down on the towel...he actually seemed to have liked it..and i think it stimulated him as he is peeing more and pooped more lol

[CritterMom]

Hey Steve how is Nutty???

[ninjasteve]

hey crittermom... nutty is doing good still...been getting a good amount of FV in him...he has been averaging around 20 to upper 20s of ccs everytime.. his tail is flickering some..and his legs and feet are having a little more reaction when touched etc :).. so all in all he is doing pretty good.. oh and he is motoring himself around the cage.. he latches on the bars with his hands and pulls himself around.. poor little peanut :) lol...he is going pee and poop alot..
he still has these little vibrations from time to time.. like he is sleepy and has those, but im wondering if its because his body is trying to charge back up , and like his neurons are firing more again..i dont know..im not worried like they are seizures or anything because i can tell if its one of those..but its as if he is cold and shivering a little yet he is warm to the touch..perhaps its just part of a symptom of the MBD??
thanks for asking... we truly appreciate it and im sorry i havent really updated much lately..

[CritterMom]

How much did you hold and handle Nutty before he got sick?

I ask because one of the "things" that I do every morning with my little guy is bring him into my room for some interactive time every morning before I leave for work. It is quite early, and he likes to pancake in front of one of the windows and watch the sun come up and the wild squirrels wake up and head to my deck for breakfast. I lean on his shelf, and he will crawl up so his front half is laying in the palm of one hand and I put the other one over his back - he responds by covering that hand with his tail. As I pet him, I can feel little vibrations in his body - almost like the shivers that little dogs like chihuahuas do but less pronounced. I think it is a way for them to burn off nervous energy, since he is certaily not ill at ease, sick, or anything of the sort!

The purring is quite different. 4skwerlz described it as being able to almost feel it rather than hear it, but I CAN hear Mister P and it reminds me of the low grade hum of high voltage lines.

I guess what I am saying is: is it possible that he has always done this "vibrating" but you never really noticed until now when you are spending SO much time doting on him?

[ninjasteve]

it could very well be normal.. im just a worry wart.. because i have noticed it lately and its like 4 days of it now.. i dont recall noticing it before though.. and have been pretty observant of him :)... my wife holds him the most at this time for feeding and cleaning him etc...
kim doesnt seem too worried anyhow , she wants us to take a video of him and send it to her..she said it could be that his nerves are firing ?? i dont believe its seizures because his head stays where it is, doesnt arch back or tilt and his arms dont stiffen outwards etc.. i pretty much know what a seizure looks like ... just curious if anyone else there experienced this with an MBD case or whatever? :)
thanks so much

[Nutty's Mama]

How much did you hold and handle Nutty before he got sick?

As I pet him, I can feel little vibrations in his body - almost like the shivers that little dogs like chihuahuas do but less pronounced. I think it is a way for them to burn off nervous energy, since he is certaily not ill at ease, sick, or anything of the sort!

I guess what I am saying is: is it possible that he has always done this "vibrating" but you never really noticed until now when you are spending SO much time doting on him?

Hey CritterMom - I think you might have hit the nail right on the head with this one. I told Steve the other day that it might have always been something that he did but since we are like hawks watching his every move now, we really notice it.
Before Nutty got sick, he used to hug the side of his hammock and almost "beat it up" and he used to do that almost every morning, so he might have been doing those vibrations during that time and we never noticed.
Thanks for asking about Nutty!!!!

[ninjasteve]

hi everyone.. its been a long time since i was on here or updated anyone about nutty.. just wanted to say he has been doing really good.. he eats a lot and drinks alot..pees and poops just fine.. unfortunately he isnt walking yet, he motors himself around in his upper part of his cage.. its been 3.5 months now since it all happened.. he does have pretty good leg movement a lot so we are hoping and are a little confident he will walk again one day ,even if he hobbles along... :)
his diet is cucumber, broccoli, little cherry tomatoes cut in half , endive.. we also give him ensure/fv at least once a day now, only because he was taking it 3 times a day for a while before and lately the last couple months he hasnt wanted it that much.. plus he does get 2 HHBs a day, the picky eaters , i would say he leaves a decent amount of crumbs behind though lol.i think he picks through them for the nuts but he does prolly eat a good half of the block at each time..so in essence he eats 1 HHB a day in total.. we give him one in the AM and one at lunchtime.. we also give him a nut at night "sometimes" and an animal cracker at night at times too..
this past saturday he was starting to act kind of loagyish...but he was eating and drinking... we got a little concerned because he wasnt acting his normal self.. he seemed a little "off".. so i automatically thought of MBD again :( ugghh... although his diet has been really good, a little perplexing??.. so for the past couple days we have been giving him one half of 1/8th of a teaspoon of ca powder(thanks to crittermom who sent this to us a while back)..which is equivalent to around 75mgs a day split up into 2 doses.. he seems to be alot better now.. not as sleepy and more perky acting.. we dont know if perhaps he just wasnt feeling that well, as colds were going around in the house.. but we didnt notice any runny nose, or watery eyes or clicking or weird sounds in his breathing... so i was wondering what you guys thought, was this possibly the start of MBD again in a very minute form or do you think maybe he was feeling a little under the weather? as i said he was eating and drinking normal and going potty normal, was just loagy and would chitter and act like he didnt want to be touched.. something he did before with this MBD thing too....
should we keep giving him the 75 mgs twice a day supplemental and then wean him off of it in a few days or so ?? im just wondering "IF" it was the start of some small form of MBD , would that little bit of Ca really make the difference? im a little puzzled and would like any input :)..
thanks alot , you guys rock ALWAYS!!! :)
sorry for not being on in a while..

[island rehabber]

I would absolutely go back to the MBD protocol with him -- now. It is very easy for MBD squirrels to relapse, and to be honest other than the broccoli he's not eating the Healthy Diet for Pet Squirrels. High calcium veggies are a must: arugula, kale, escarole, mustard greens....any one of those will improve his diet. Yes I would definitely supplement calcium and see if you can get him to take 2 HHB's a day. :thumbsup

[CritterMom]

If it is feasible, in the morning, give him just his HHBs and fresh water. I also feed regular rat block (I use Harlan Teklad but the Kaytee Forti Diet for rats that is sold in pet stores is okay, too), and make sure he always has a few of those in his cage. Then at lunchtime, give him the veggies. They are hungriest first thing in the morning and if he has ONLY the blocks and HHBs to eat, he will, instead of going for the veggies first. Then in the evening if he' been a good boy, he gets his nut treat. Your best bets in that category are hazelnuts and almonds, which have more calcium and less phosphorus than other nuts. WORST choices are peanuts, brazil nuts and pine nuts. I like to buy hickory nuts online - enormously hard, thick shells that take a LONG time to open that have very little actual nut in them. I have seen my boy spend more than 3 hours working constantly to open one of those!

The bags of spring mix are a nice choice for greens and are so easy - open bag, serve!

[ninjasteve]

thanks for the replies :) ... i forgot to tell you he also has zupreme or forti, i dont remember the brand but he has those blocks in there all the time, we got them from another member on here who got them from chris's squirrels? i think that was the place.... he has the bigger block in there with him all the time... he doesnt like the smaller ones.. lol... occasionally he will munch on the bigger block when he feels like it... to be honest with you, he doesnt normally touch his veggies in the AM anyhow.. he will munch on his HHB and then usually go back to bed.. but we put the veggies in there .. we should just not put any in there at all then and only the HHB?? and you say to still give him the extra ca for now? and get those greens..?? i can tell you we tried with escarole before and he didnt like it.. he is a picky eater.. but i guess if we ONLY give him certain things, he will eat as he wont starve himself...
thanks again guys :)

[ninjasteve]

also should we give him more ca than we are now? as i said before we are giving him like 75 mgs or around there split up into 2 doses.. i dont want to over do it as i read before they can get toxic with it..
thanks :)

[CritterMom]

I would absolutely put him back on the MBD protocol now with the additional calcium, and like you did before, wean him off of it slowly. If you can get him to where he is reliably eating the HHBs, you don't have to get too crazy about the specific greens, because the HHBs will supply him with all the calcium and other that he needs.

It takes a LONG time to regrow the bone lost to MBD and you need to be pretty vigilant until then.

[ninjasteve]

ok thanks crittermom.. but im thinking the 500mgs a day mbd protocol is way too much to give him now as he isnt like he was when we first found him back in november.. he eats good, drinks good, moves around good for how he can and seems pretty much back to normal and that is only with around 75mgs of extra ca in the ensure/fv mixture.. we really dont want to take a chance and overdose him with ca..
thanks so much again :)

[CritterMom]

If he is reliably eating the HHBs it will probably be okay, just keep an eye on him and if he back slides, you can increase. Try to spread it out, too, not just one blast of calcium but several spread through the day.

[island rehabber]

we really dont want to take a chance and overdose him with ca.

According to Dr. Emerson DVM, this is an extremely difficult thing to do as the body sheds (pees out) excess calcium that it does not desperately need. I would not treat your squirrel with the belief that you are one Tums away from overdosing him. The symptoms you describe sound like the MBD is flaring up again.

[ninjasteve]

well you guys are the pros but i know there does tend to be conflicting information from time to time on what others feel etc.. crittermom says the dose we are giving him in addition to his HHBs and ensure/fv should be ok and keep an eye on him, which we do :) we are giving it to him in two doses and as i said he does seem better from a couple days ago already.. so your saying island rehabber that we should put him back on full force of the ca? im a little confused..again just dont want to overdo it..i know i keep reiterating that, sorry..
thanks again :)

[JLM27]

Remember sunshine vitamin D3. Use a crushed human calcium supplement pill with D3.

[ninjasteve]

well sometimes the sun shines through the window into his cage and we have an ott light shining on him.. we dont use pills crushed up.. we use calcium carbonate powder... i never heard anyone say to supplement D3??
thanks :)

[CritterMom]

well sometimes the sun shines through the window into his cage and we have an ott light shining on him.. we dont use pills crushed up.. we use calcium carbonate powder... i never heard anyone say to supplement D3??
thanks :)

The HHBs you are feeding him have all of those in them, including the D.

[ninjasteve]

ok good :) ..i figured there is alot in them he needs..
so we should just give him the dosage of extra ca that we are giving him now and keep an eye on him and if need be to increase it? just want to make sure i have this right :) ...
my wife went home at lunchtime and he was wide awake and perky, looking out the window :) ... so thats good.
thanks so much!!!

[ninjasteve]

also .. how long should we keep giving him the extra ca?

thanks :)

[ninjasteve]

hey I didnt hear back from anyone?? :( lol..
nutty is doing really good again... just as perky as can be...eating a ton..he ate so much yesterday... :) .. was a good boy...
anyhow, I asked how long should we keep giving him the supplemental Ca for? as stated we are giving him around an extra 75mgs of the powder mixed with his ensure/fv... and he religiously gets 2 HHBs a day :)
thanks as always!!!

[Nutty's Mama]

OK - yesterday was the first day that we went back to the MBD protocol and gave Nutty 500mg of calcium. I gave him 100mg in the morning (7:15am), sprinkled around 100mg on his veggies which he ate between 7:15am and noon time, 100mg at lunch time, 100 mg at 5:15pm and 100mg at 9:30pm.
I noticed as we went through the day he became more and more sleepy acting (it was raining yesterday, so I attributed his loagyness to the weather). Well when I went to feed him this morning, he was basically a zombie. He didnt want to wake up, didnt want to get up and when I offered him is HHB this morning, which he usually devours, he ate the corner off and went right back to sleep. Whats going on?? I feel like I made him toxic with calcium....is this possible?
It's not like he is totally unresponsive. He did move his tail and did move his back legs, but he is totally not himself at all. My husband offered him a small piece of an animal cracker to see if he would do anything and he grabbed right ahold of it and ate it right down. I put him up to his water bottle after that and he took 3-4 licks and then went right back to bed.
Monday and Tuesday - he was awesome!! I was giving him around 225mg of CA a day broken up into 3 doses. He was eating his veggies, eating his HHB's and acting like the normal Nutty. Npw when I up'd the CA dosage, he's a zombie. Please help!!! :dono

[island rehabber]

If he takes fluids from a syringe for you, I would hydrate him first before doing anything else. If he's not eating & being reclusive he is dehydrated, and since he only took "3-4 licks" at his bottle on his own, try syringeing some water or Pedialyte to him. I do not think you've made him 'toxic' with calcium. However, he does need the D3 in order to metabolize the calcium you have given him. If he hasn't been getting D3 with it, it's possible that this is another relapse of the MBD.

[ninjasteve]

im at home right now keeping an eye on him....how can we get d3 in him then? where do we get it??? im a ball of nerves right now...we will push some fluids in him then to make sure he keeps hydrated...
thanks alot IR

[Nancy in New York]

Steve, I copied this from a post about calcium.
Call around to pet stores and see if they carry it. I got this on line at the link that was supplied at the bottom.
Call anyplace that would sell exotics, as this is a reptiles supplement.
So what you would ask for is Exo Terra Ca and D3

Originally Posted by Charley Chuckles
I received an email from Dr. Emerson last night and she said since it is so hard to get the Nutroball another good source of calcium/D3 for anyone interested the product is called Exo Terra Ca and D3. And it would be just a pinch sprinkled directly on food daily

Thank you Abby!

I was waiting patiently cause I know Dr. E did not want 15 of us bugging her about it!
That product is affordable and available in lots of stores...
http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CF4Q8gIwBg#

[ninjasteve]

thanks so much for the reply nancy...i will call around and see if they carry it...and i assume keeping giving him the regular dose we are giving him? we think we will cut back on the amount that we were giving him yesterday...the weird thing is, before that he was doing awesome...super perky and eating up a storm...and now this...he did pee a little while ago...he is all wet..so i dried him off the best i could...i moved him and he bit me ...but i also dont usually touch him like my wife does..he doesnt seem in pain...im at a loss here..
thanks alot

also, i did manage to get a little water in him via syringe...we dont have any pedialyte right now..he took the water in, latched on to the syringe...i had to keep showing it in his face though lol

[Nancy in New York]

Remember you can also make your own pedialyte:

1 tsp salt (teaspoon)
3 Tbsp sugar (tablespoon)
1 quart warm water

Keep refrigerated.

It just seems strange that he would go from being perky etc. one day to this....I do wonder if there is something else happening.
Could he have fallen, or gotten a leg caught on something.
Hydration is always key Steve....always.
Did you give him any hard nuts recently, any new branches, anything out of the ordinary other than the amount of calcium? To me it's highly unlikely that would be the source of his problem....:dono
:Love_Icon

Edit....
Steve why did your start giving him extra calcium if he was acting perky and energetic before?
Are you giving him extra calcium anyway since he first got MBD, and just upped it yesterday?

[ninjasteve]

ok...called petsmart...they dont have exoterra but they have flukers and its ca/d3...and phosphorous free....so looks like we will get that unless anyone else has another idea?? they had a couple other kinds too that are ca/d3...
thanks again

[Nutty's Mama]

Nancy - thats why this has become so concerning because we havent given him anything out of the ordinary. He couldnt have fallen because he cant walk yet and he hasnt gotten caught up in his blankets in some time - i make sure that his nails are dulled down and he has fleece in there so its nothing that he can really get caught on.
When I go home at lunch time, should I give him his FV like I normally do or really concentrate on getting him hydrated and give him some homemade pedialyte?

[Nancy in New York]

Do you know roughly how much he has drank in the last 24 hours...I mean approximate? Does he have food available for him in his cage now?
I think that I would try rehydrating at lunch time. If he is dehydrated, it can really do a number on their body....I just went through this with a squirrel that I was watching for the week. I swear this sounds so similar....:dono
Sammy, the squirrel I was watching...got somewhat dehydrated because of the different water here, he is from Connecticut. I saw his water bottle going down, but at home he would drink tons of water, and not here. His mama also pushes on the bottle when she sees him drink, as did I....but most likely I wasn't as aware of it as his mama. The last day here, just like Nutty....and it came out of the blue.
Push the fluids. I will get the link to the thread that I am talking about.:thumbsup

[Nancy in New York]

OK here's the thread, skim through it and see if it sounds like Nutty.
http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33562

Also if Steve is home today, have him keep offering the water bottle
to Nutty, take it to where ever Nutty is, and have him gently squirt it a little if he starts drinking.

[Nutty's Mama]

Sounds very familiar actually - its pretty much what he is doing. Just wanting to sleep.
I'll tell Steve to keep offering him water, but about 20 minutes ago he said that he was sleeping.
As far as how much he has drank in the last 24 hours? I would say that the water in the bottle went down a 1/4 of an inch, not as much as he usually takes - usually he drinks A LOT!
When I go home at lunch time I'll give him the homemade pedialyte and see what happens.

[Nancy in New York]

Sounds very familiar actually - its pretty much what he is doing. Just wanting to sleep.
I'll tell Steve to keep offering him water, but about 20 minutes ago he said that he was sleeping.
As far as how much he has drank in the last 24 hours? I would say that the water in the bottle went down a 1/4 of an inch, not as much as he usually takes - usually he drinks A LOT!
When I go home at lunch time I'll give him the homemade pedialyte and see what happens.

Yup, that's what Sammy's Mom said that Sammy drank alot....but not here, even though I was aware of it,that he was a good drinker,
to me he drank a good amount
as all squirrels drink different amounts
some BIG water drinker, and some not so much....:dono
Isn't it strange how these two stories really do sound similar?
:grouphug

[Nutty's Mama]

It actually takes some stress off my shoulders that someone else experienced the same thing - at least we think.
I'm just not sure why Nutty went into this state when nothing really changed except the amount of Ca that I was giving him. Who knows though, strange things happen all the time. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that by getting Nutty hydrated that he will turn around and go back to his normal self.:)

[Nancy in New York]

Dehydration can do some really terrible things....so fingers crossed that's his problem...:grouphug

[ninjasteve]

hi nancy...i talked with kim...she doesnt seem too concerned and also wonders how it could be mbd again when he religiously got up to 40ml of fv with the extra ca in it plus 2 hhbs and veggies everyday...she said def get pedialyte in him and just try and feed him more and let him rest and go from there and she also said to get the ca/d3...they have at petsmart flukers brand and is phosphorous free...so we willl get that and sprinkle a little on his food or a piece of fruit..lets hope he is ok soon...she also said if worse came to worse we can go to your vet with you or something...just an option..
ughhh so nerve racking with alll of this..
thanks alot for all your help!!! :)

[Nutty's Mama]

Thank you for all your help Nancy. We appreciate it very very much!!
Hopefully with the pedialyte I give him this afternoon we will by on the road to recovery yet once again.:) :thankyou

[Nancy in New York]

Sounds like a plan....hydration is key. Follow him around with the water bottle, no fooling. SammysMom does that...:thumbsup
Yup there is another vet too that will see Nutty if we can't get in immediately to see Joy, so we have options.
:grouphug

[Nutty's Mama]

Here is the lunch time update:
3 ccs of Pedialyte
13 ccs of FV
3 ccs of water
After that was all done, he went right back to sleep. And I should mention that he didnt take all of that willingly - there was a struggle, but he did drink it.

[redwuff]

How is Nutty doing?

[babysquirrelchip]

Read the whole thread just now.
Nutty seems to be in great hands! You guys are doing great!
He's in my thoughts and is hopefully on the road to recovery :grouphug

[Nutty's Mama]

Well, Nutty is back to himself this morning. He ate his formula, veggies and was basking in the sun for a good hour today. We truly believe that he had a really upset belly and needed a day to work it out of his system. Scared me to death though :)
We bought the Ca/D3 suplement today and put a little on a piece of fruit and gave it to him at dinner time. He ate it all with no problem.
Thank you everyone who helped with this situation and thank you to everyone who's thoughts went out to Nutty.:grouphug

[Nancy in New York]

Well, Nutty is back to himself this morning. He ate his formula, veggies and was basking in the sun for a good hour today. We truly believe that he had a really upset belly and needed a day to work it out of his system. Scared me to death though :)
We bought the Ca/D3 suplement today and put a little on a piece of fruit and gave it to him at dinner time. He ate it all with no problem.
Thank you everyone who helped with this situation and thank you to everyone who's thoughts went out to Nutty.:grouphug
Way to go Nutty!:wahoo
:Love_Icon