Where should I place the cage for winter..

[iwonka]

I bought a new big cage for my 5 squirrels which are staying with me over the winter. The cage measures: 42" x 33" x 76" and I don’t really have place for it in our living area. I can put it in my office but there is a carpet on the floor and cleaning could be a problem (remember: 5 monsters !! :flash3 ). I also have a big room with a ceramic floor but it’s in our basement and there is not a lot of natural light.

My squirrels will be fed with all the best: HHR blocks and fresh vegetables so there won’t be a vitamin or nutrition issue.

I would really appreciate your opinion on this matter.

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[SammysMom]

Well, the office is probably better due to light. I have Sammy in the dining room with a shower curtain liner under it that I change regularly. They are only about $2 - $3 each so they are a reasonable solution.

[pappy1264]

That cage is going to be pretty small for five squirrels to get through the winter without fighting alot. I had four in one bigger then that and they really started fighting pretty good (we ended up building a huge cage in the basement, bought lights for the uva/uvb you get for parrots and put them on a timer. Even with out of cage time, unless they are out ALOT, that is going to get stressful on them. Are you in the position to build something downstairs and use lights?

[iwonka]

That cage is going to be pretty small for five squirrels to get through the winter without fighting alot.

:sanp3 Realy?!... I have a problem !!..

What can I do?.. I will have to find somebody and separate them...

[Nancy in New York]

WOW that cage really is gorgeous. I wonder if there is anyway to modify without spending another fortune.
Overwintering is one of the hardest things....only because they grow so much in the next 6-8 months and they get antsy.
Are we talking about grey squirrels?

[pappy1264]

Maybe you can build around it, put the nestbox(es) inside the cage, but have more area around it they can stretch out and sort of have their own space? I saw a huge difference in my guys once they had the bigger cage (it is 10 ft long, by 6 ft high, by 3.5 ft deep, with a double entry door, so no escapes. Another thing with being in the basement, it is warmer then outside, but cooler then the upstairs house, which makes it easier come spring, for acclimation purposes.

[iwonka]

Are we talking about grey squirrels?

Yes.. 2 males and 3 females.

As for now they seem to enjoy each other and I see them yelling only for food.

[iwonka]

They are in the small cage now: 30x24x50.. Maybe I can connect both cages somehow?...

OMG - my husband will divorce me !! :osnap :the_wife

[Nancy in New York]

They are in the small cage now: 30x24x50.. Maybe I can connect both cages somehow?...

OMG - my husband will divorce me !! :osnap :the_wife


I think he would only divorce you if we can't figure out how to use that gorgeous cage....can you post a photo of the other one too, perhaps we can think of how to connect them....but you will also need an access door.:thinking

[iwonka]

I think he would only divorce you if we can't figure out how to use that gorgeous cage....can you post a photo of the other one too, perhaps we can think of how to connect them....but you will also need an access door.:thinking

It's the smallest cage. It does not show well in the photo but there is a large door in front of the cage.

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[pappy1264]

Maybe keep the two boys in the one they are in now, and the three girls in the bigger one? Not ideal, but think that would be a little better, and then there is not the stress of the males trying to mate with the girls and chasing them around (which does happen!)

[iwonka]

It's the smallest cage. It does not show well in the photo but there is a large door in front of the cage.

I just found that I can remove the roof of the cage very easily without weakening the structure.

My first idea (when I bought the biggest cage) was to keep the smallest one as a "solarium" in the sunny days...Like today.


153648

[iwonka]

Another idea!

What is the lowest temperature for squirrels can be in during the overwintering? .. I have a large garage where I can install my two releasing cages. What do you think?

[Nancy in New York]

I have an attached garage, and last year I had to use that for my over winters.
I got a huge cat tree to put out there, and then a rug that I put up on the wall for them to climb on.
I didn't keep them in the garage the whole time, just some out time so they could excercise etc...usually about 3-4 hours a day. Around February, I turned the whole garage over to them because they would not get back into their cage to come inside.
We cleaned everything out of the garage that they could get into....because they will.
I think you are just talking about putting them in your garage, and not necessarily letting them have free roam, right?
How cold does it get? I know that there are some people that overwinter outside, so depending on your temps in the garage, I don't see why not...:dono

[Scooterzmom]

I would think that the garage would be fine for the winter, unless it gets down below 0 degree F. In that case I would probably place a space heater in there for those nights. Do make sure the garage is absolutely squirrel-proof no wires to chew, paint etc... if you intend to ever let them loose in there. There are many, MANY dangerous things for squirrels in a garage... be very careful.

[Adventurista]

I've been going through something similar, and I talked to a rehabber on the other side of my state who had some interesting advice. I'm nervous that it may contradict some of the advice we get here, so please just take it for what it's worth. She's an old-timer at this, and had some things to say to me.

First of all, I told her I was really nervous about the baby I raised from a pinky fighting with the two newbies I got from the vet. She laughed and asked me if I thought they never fought in the wild. She definitely has a different perspective, and she sort of sat me down and explained that as wild animals, they are not kind and loving toward each other as we humans wish they were. It gave me some new thoughts. She has been rehabbing for 30 years and apparently has a very wide network on that side of the state (wish I could have talked to her a few months ago when I first found my baby, but it has worked out just fine).

She also laughed at me when I said I was worried about them getting cold if I left them in a garage or screened porch over winter. Did I think they have heaters in their nests in the trees? Well.....ahem. I suppose they do not.

She said that where I live, it is often safer to release them (well equipped) in the winter months than in the summer, because there is less chance of predation by hawks, dogs, and cats, even though there is snow on the ground. Interesting. Of course, you have to provide food and water for them all winter. Apparently their mothers start kicking them out of the nest soon, because they begin mating in January and February again (these are foxers I'm talking about). I can't remember the percentage that actually make it in the wild, mind you....I think I read that only 30 or 40% see their first birthday.

Anyway, I found someone who is interested in rehabbing full-time to take the two new (wild!) babies and I am keeping Kai over the winter. I guess I'm more taking the advice I've gotten here with him than the advice that she gave me (keep him outside or at least in a covered porch, don't touch him once he's weaned, only feed him wild foods ("those foods you're feeding him are very nice, dear, however where is he going to get avocadoes, Henry's Blocks, and shell peas himself? hmmmm?"). I guess there are as many opinions on rehabbing as there are rehabbers!

Based on what she told me, I think your babies would probably be fine--and maybe even better, in the garage. I know what you mean about the husband, too....mine is being soooo patient, but I think there is a limit! :rotfl


Another idea!

What is the lowest temperature for squirrels can be in during the overwintering? .. I have a large garage where I can install my two releasing cages. What do you think?

[astra]

Hi A,

THanks for sharing that!

What she told you is nothing new, but one of the characteristic rehabbing views. Some of the people here would agree with some of the points she made.
Others from here would disagree. Even here people seem to vary on certain points, especially, when it comes to late Fall release and such.
So, after everyone has voiced their view, it will ultimately be the person's choice what to do.

I'll just make a few observations.
1. Even though, there are two mating seasons per year, not all squirrels necessarily have two litters. Most of the time, they have one litter per year (either one). I have even observed that with my wilds. In warmer climates, like FL, they do have more frequent litters, but in colder climates it's not as common.
Most of the time, Fall babies bunch up together with their mom to stay warm in the winter. No one who has sibs and/or Mom around stays all alone in his/her nest, especially, in cold climates.
Even if we allow for the fact that she decided to have her litter next Spring, the new spring babies do not come until late March/early April. Until then, at least through the coldest months of Jan and Feb, her Fall babies are with her.

2. As for being safer from predators in the winter... hmmm.. i wonder where she got that from... and even if that's in some sort of rehab book, i'd contend with it, because it contradicts plain common sense and general info about predators and preys in the wild.
In the winter, predators are more, say, determined and ravenous because there is less food for them, too. And it's cold. Winter is hard in terms of food for both, squirrels and hawks and all others.
Moreover, with all trees standing bare, squirrels have nowhere to hide, really. How is it safer in the winter if you are out there in the open?...
If winters were so much safer, as she says, there would not be a common admission that "fall babies are pretty much just part of the food chain" (or something along those lines)?

3. Yes, they fight. Not because they do not know how to love each other, contrary to what she said, but because they are put in very stringent and often merciless "laws" of the survival of the fittest.
Besides, they fight because, just like people, who, according to her, are "loving to each other" (hmmm, really?), because all squirrels do not like all squirrels. Just like all people do not like all people. I like few and cannot stand the rest, personally.
Squirrels, like all other animals, can be very affectionate towards each other. They know how to love, how to appreciate love and give it back.
Honestly, I do not know how she could work so many years with animals and completely miss the magic of it all - never recognized how amazing animals are, including squirrels. Sorry, but to me it sounds like she looked but did not see, she heard but did not listen...

4. Fighting in a cage and fighting in the wild are two different things. When squirrels meet other squirrels whom they dislike, they might get into fights, but both of them can walk their separate ways and avoid each other. Squirrels in the cage do not have such freedom.
Fighting squirrels in the wild do not have to share a nest box and a food platter and be confined to the same spot day in and day out.
But squirrels in rehab who happen not to like each other are forced to face each other every single minute of their rehab life.

Fighting puts a lot of stress on all of them, and yes, it's part of their real life, but again, in the wild, they can run away, they can go to their own nest and be alone, eat in a different place, and relocate if necessary.

Caged squirrels, again, do not have that freedom.
Therefore, putting together squirrels who dislike each other is subjecting them to this increasing unmitigated awful stress that can be damaging to their emotional well-being (it can damage confidence of a less aggressive squirrel), as well as physical. I remember reading about similar situations regarding other animals, especially, dogs.

4. Comparing young wild juvies out of the nest in the Fall to rehabbed juvies for release in the Fall is wrong.
Wild babies raised by their wild mother have been learning important squirrelly things from their mother. The kind of knowledge that was unavailable for the rehabbed babies.
Wild babies even after they are allowed to explore the outside on their own, still stick close to their mother and continue learning from her. During winter they often stay with her till spring, along with the sibs.
Another thing that is unavailable to the rehabbed babies who are truly on their own once released.
So, wild juvies and rehabbed juvies of the same age are not equally equipped to be out there in the wild. So, the comparison is inappropriate.
Although, even wild Fall babies have higher mortality rate than Spring babies.

5. Of course, their nests do not have heaters, but as I said, during winter, a squirrel is very rarely on its own in its nest (and if it is so, it often freezes to death during severe winters). No, they do not need heaters, because they have each other: during cold winter months, squirrels group up and sleep in a bunch keeping each other warm.
Moreover, wild babies, being always in the wild (sorry for this wordiness;-)) have plenty of time to gradually acclimate to the changing temps in the Fall and grow a nice thick winter fur.
Rehab Fall babies, especially, the later ones, depending on the weather and the release process do not have enough time to acclimate to the 100% outside conditions and to grow 100% winter thick fur. Of course, eventually, they do, but in the meantime, they freeze. And those who are more sensitive get sick.

Sorry for the novel I've written here, but I just could not agree with some things that that rehabber said.

As I said, here you will find people who agree with her wholeheartedly, those who agree with some views only and those who disagree.

So, it is ultimately the person's choice and decision, what they are comfortable with, the means and facilities they have, their capabilities.

But honestly, all these rehab "stylistic" differences aside, it just amazes me that someone who has been working with animals, squirrels specifically, for as long as it seems, can say that "they do not love each other"...:shakehead

:grouphug

[Adventurista]

Yeah---like I said, take it for what it's worth. I'm so very new to all of it, and have already taken some advice that in hindsight I wish I wouldn't have, but it's all a learning process. Really, it's like anything else in life! I'm just thankful that I get to have this truly unique and amazing experience in my life!

I just hope and pray that Kai really will "wild up" and be able to be a "real squirrel." After having those "wild" babies for a week or so, it really made me see how very "not wild" he is. They were terrified of me---he wants nothing more than to be out of his cage with us. I've noticed a lot of instinct with him (hiding food a little bit, wanting to be up high in his cube, etc.) but he's definitely not like the other babies are.

ETA: As for animal love...I've seen how animals can bond and what I would say love one another and humans...but I've also seen where it's "all business." Wolf packs depend on each other, and the bond of a pack is incredible---until, say, the hunter members start breaking their teeth on bones when they take an animal down--then all bets are off. The hunter members are often the first to die, usually of starvation because they can no longer hunt and eat. I've seen stuff like that in a lot of instances---nature can be pretty cruel from our standards. Then again, so can we I guess.

[astra]

ETA: I've seen stuff like that in a lot of instances---nature can be pretty cruel from our standards. Then again, so can we I guess.
yep, that's part of the "survival of the fittest"... nature can be utterly merciless, indeed...

unfortunately, people are the same and even worse, because, in addition to instincts, humans, supposedly, possess reason, moral and ethical judgement...but, as I said, that's supposedly...

I hope, Kai will wild up.
Most of them do, eventually, especially, the older they get. He is still relatively young. They vary in temperament, too... Maybe, it will just take him a bit longer...:) :grouphug

[Adventurista]

I think my husband (the man who said, "what are you THINKING?!" when I brought home this tiny, naked, practically fetal creature) does *not* want him to wild up! lol! He keeps saying, "You know, I don't mind if we keep him." And he keeps telling everyone that I'm getting too attached...haha! I couldn't even call him by his name until about a week ago---he was just Baby Squirrel.

Either way, it's up to Kai and I think he's going to have a pretty good life. This has certainly been a lot of fun so far (although during those couple of weeks when I was feeding him every two hours, freaking out at every little thing...)



yep, that's part of the "survival of the fittest"... nature can be utterly merciless, indeed...

unfortunately, people are the same and even worse, because, in addition to instincts, humans, supposedly, possess reason, moral and ethical judgement...but, as I said, that's supposedly...

I hope, Kai will wild up.
Most of them do, eventually, especially, the older they get. He is still relatively young. They vary in temperament, too... Maybe, it will just take him a bit longer...:) :grouphug

[astra]

I think my husband (the man who said, "what are you THINKING?!" when I brought home this tiny, naked, practically fetal creature) does *not* want him to wild up! lol! He keeps saying, "You know, I don't mind if we keep him." And he keeps telling everyone that I'm getting too attached...haha! I couldn't even call him by his name until about a week ago---he was just Baby Squirrel.
:rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

Either way, it's up to Kai and I think he's going to have a pretty good life. This has certainly been a lot of fun so far (although during those couple of weeks when I was feeding him every two hours, freaking out at every little thing...):) :grouphug

[pappy1264]

Good post, Astra!

This one paragraph is one of the biggest reasons I overwinter (plus up here, there is NOTHING left on our trees already!)

5. Of course, their nests do not have heaters, but as I said, during winter, a squirrel is very rarely on its own in its nest (and if it is so, it often freezes to death during severe winters). No, they do not need heaters, because they have each other: during cold winter months, squirrels group up and sleep in a bunch keeping each other warm.
Moreover, wild babies, being always in the wild (sorry for this wordiness;-)) have plenty of time to gradually acclimate to the changing temps in the Fall and grow a nice thick winter fur.
Rehab Fall babies, especially, the later ones, depending on the weather and the release process do not have enough time to acclimate to the 100% outside conditions and to grow 100% winter thick fur. Of course, eventually, they do, but in the meantime, they freeze. And those who are more sensitive get sick.

If it hasn't started to get too cold out, a garage will work, they will get a thick fur coat over time, but not truly be exposed to the elements and wind. Make sure they have lots of good insulation in the nest box.

I moved four of my six (two are 'singles, they are still upstairs) downstairs yesterday. It is cooler down there, and by the time the spring is here, the temp downstairs and outside will probably be about the same, so they will already have a thicker coat.