health and MBD

[quagmire]

I have 3 year old neutered gray squirrel. He has not been active and not eating well. In past summers he slows his eating and looses weight. He does not jump any more, walks slowly, does not run, does not climb much, kinda hops with both rear legs together instead of one at a time when walking. No obvious injuries. He is very alert mentally. Lays down on his belly to chew pine cones and other stuff. Has trouble sitting up while holding food to eat. He used to run around the tile floor and climb so much that he kept his nails short, now they are long and have trimmed.

Took him to vet had x-ray nothing visible. Had calcium blood level tested using ferret standards 7.8 out of minimum range of 8.0. Vets says o.k. level but are not always accurate. Give him foods high in calcium Kale, Swish Chard, Henry's blocks, has bird mineral block. Gave tums to begin with which he really liked for a while. Then tried powder Reptical on his foods but he will not eat food with it on them. Put Reptical in his water but it does no dissolve. Searched for liquid calcium at drug store cannot find. Got calcium carbonate liquid gel caps 1200 MG per serving plus Vitamin D3 1000IU. I thought I might be able to get the liquid out of that. Got a UVB screw in light bulb Reptisun 10.0 compact fluorescent light bulb.

Any suggestions to get him to eat more calcium?
What would proper levels be?
How may hours of UVB and how close to the bulb? if the right bulb?
long term treatment suggestions?
any ideas of other possible problems?

[astra]

Experts will be on here soon.

As far as I remember, vet's tests on cal in blood are not always accurate. For one thing, ferret cal needs are completely different from those of a squirrel. What might be ok for a ferret, might not be ok for a squirrel.
Another thing - cal in blood is not always a good determinant of the overall calcium deficiency if any present.

You said you give him Henry's block. Could you, please, be more specific as to what it is exactly he eats daily: how many blocks per day, which blocks exactly (e.g., does he HHBs every day, or occasionally; on days when he doesn't get HHBs what does he get etc etcetc)- please provide as much detail as possible for the experts to understand the situation.

You mentioned TUms. When did you start giving them?... How often?... IN what amounts?... are there any changes in his behavior, even if slight?

Also, when did you first observe his symptoms?... How long ago and with what frequency?... Did the symptoms progress?... how fast?....

Does he have a full run of the house?... are there house plants he could have gotten into?...

PLease think of everything and describe it as detailed as possible.

Please keep checking - someone will be on here soon.:grouphug

[Tickle's Mom]

Sure sounds familiar - my Tickle is paralyzed now due to MBD. What you describe is exactly what her original owners described to me.

See below:


Emergency Treatment for MBD

Get calcium into the squirrel IMMEDIATELY, not later, not tomorrow, NOW. Delaying treatment can cause death or permanent paralysis.

You will need:

--Tums or calcium pills (any kind)
--a syringe, eyedropper, or spoon

Crush one Tums or calcium pill and add a little water or fruit juice. Use the syringe, eyedropper, or spoon to force-feed the mixture, a little at a time, until it is all gone. Feed a total of 600-800 mg of calcium, and spread it out through the day and night to keep his blood calcium levels as steady as possible.

If the squirrel is having seizures, weakness, or paralysis, the symptoms will usually improve within a few hours, but this does not mean the squirrel is cured. It will take many months to rebuild the calcium in the bones.

Long-Term Treatment for MBD

The next step to curing MBD is to fix the diet.

1. Remove ALL seeds, nuts, corn, and treats.

2. Follow the Healthy Diet For Pet Squirrels, which can be found at the top of the “Squirrel Nutrition” forum. (http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=16093) Your squirrel MUST eat rodent block or squirrel blocks every day. If your squirrel doesn't like rodent blocks, you can try crushing them up with peanut butter or avocado temporarily. You can also make a tastier version of squirrel blocks using the recipe at the top of the Squirrel Nutrition forum.

3. In addition to the Healthy Diet, you will need to continue giving extra calcium every day for several weeks. Either use the syringe/eyedropper or you can try putting the calcium on a small piece of fruit.

Week 1: calcium = 500 mg per day
Week 2: calcium = 250 mg per day
Weeks 3-8: calcium = 100 mg per day

The cause of the acute symptoms—weakness, lethargy, seizures, paralysis—is a drop in blood calcium levels. If these symptoms return at any time, you will need to give another emergency dose of calcium.

More Tips
MBD causes brittle bones that break easily. Try to keep your squirrel away from high places, where he might jump and break a bone. Also, if he is in a tall cage, either place him in a smaller cage, or pad the bottom very well.

Heat is very soothing for a squirrel with MBD. A heating pad turned to low and placed so they cannot chew the pad or cord, or a rice buddy (a sock filled with dry rice/beans and microwaved for about 20 seconds) will work.

[quagmire]

Henry's healthy blocks for adult squirrels.

Quagmire has free run of screened-inporch which gets direct sun through screen.

August 11 ended eight day construction on roof, during the time he was confined to his cage on porch. Noticed not as active thought it might be hot weather (south central Florida). Started loading h im up with high calcium foods. Went on vacation August 20. He was restricted to his cage. Returned September 2. He was a little worse. September 7 went to vet had x-ray, looked like minor knee degeneration. Gave anti-inflammatory (Metacam).

He is eating good now and likes his Tums again. He sometimes squeaks when he moves or is picked up, like in pain.

[astra]

Henry's healthy blocks for adult squirrels.

Quagmire has free run of screened-inporch which gets direct sun through screen.

August 11 ended eight day construction on roof, during the time he was confined to his cage on porch. Noticed not as active thought it might be hot weather (south central Florida). Started loading h im up with high calcium foods. Went on vacation August 20. He was restricted to his cage. Returned September 2. He was a little worse. September 7 went to vet had x-ray, looked like minor knee degeneration. Gave anti-inflammatory (Metacam).

He is eating good now and likes his Tums again. He sometimes squeaks when he moves or is picked up, like in pain.

how often does he eat HHBs?... daily? every other day? how many per day?
What else does he eat daily?

[quagmire]

He is currently eating large pieces of kale, two slices of apples, a grape, half Henry's block, a full Tums per day.

It is hard to make sure he gets enough sunlight when he stays in his bed/hammock most of the day. Every day since seeing the vet he has been going outside in a small cage and placed in the sun for at least one hour per day(two different intervals). He also scratches at his ears frequently. Vet said no mites. Gave liquid to clean out ears.

[4skwerlz]

Henry's healthy blocks for adult squirrels.

Quagmire has free run of screened-inporch which gets direct sun through screen.

August 11 ended eight day construction on roof, during the time he was confined to his cage on porch. Noticed not as active thought it might be hot weather (south central Florida). Started loading h im up with high calcium foods. Went on vacation August 20. He was restricted to his cage. Returned September 2. He was a little worse. September 7 went to vet had x-ray, looked like minor knee degeneration. Gave anti-inflammatory (Metacam).

He is eating good now and likes his Tums again. He sometimes squeaks when he moves or is picked up, like in pain.
It looks like you ordered HHBs about a month ago for the first time. If he's eating the HHBs, that's an important part of the treatment, but the Henry's blocks alone are not enough to cure MBD. You need the treatment posted by Tickle's Mom.

There is really no such thing as a "high calcium" veggie; even the best veggies have only a few mgs of calcium. They must eat a rodent block or squirrel block every day.

Never use "Calcium with Vit D"; not Reptical, not human tablets. Reptiles and humans have much higher Vit D requirements relative to calcium, so the balance is off (too much Vit D). Excess Vit D makes the MBD worse. Use the PLAIN CALCIUM; Tums are fine.

Please follow the treatment posted by Tickle's Mom exactly. It has saved hundreds of squirrels. If you have questions, post them here.

As Astra posted, we need an exact list of his diet; amounts and frequency, as well as any supplements given. He will need to be on a very controlled diet, plus calcium supplementation, for many months to come.

Please keep us updated, every day if you can.

[quagmire]

He just ate a grape and almond and licked some of the liquid from the calcium/vit D3 capsule. He will not touch a regular ole peanut.

[4skwerlz]

He just ate a grape and almond and licked some of the liquid from the calcium/vit D3 capsule. He will not touch a regular ole peanut.

Please read the post just before this one.

[astra]

He is currently eating large pieces of kale, two slices of apples, a grape, half Henry's block, a full Tums per day.

It is hard to make sure he gets enough sunlight when he stays in his bed/hammock most of the day. Every day since seeing the vet he has been going outside in a small cage and placed in the sun for at least one hour per day(two different intervals). He also scratches at his ears frequently. Vet said no mites. Gave liquid to clean out ears.
half a block is not enough.
If I remember it correctly, the minimum is 2 blocks per day. If his regular menu had only half a block per day on average, even with Tums, that might not have been enough and this might be a case of beginning MBD.

As 4sqwerlz said, if this is MBD, you need to follow the MBD Treatment as Tickle's Mom outlined.

My other question: did I understand it correctly that there was construction going on and all that time he was out on the porch?... I don't know how involved the construction was and how much space it took, but could he have inhaled whatever was going on in that construction activity?

But going back to his diet, if his average daily allotment of HHBs was half a block (whereas the recommended minimum is 2, I think), MBD is very likely.

Please, follow all the steps for MBD treatment and keep logging everything in this thread so that we can all together monitor your little guy and follow his progress. If something stops working, we will be able to catch it early and/or modify the treatment accordingly.

:grouphug :grouphug

[astra]

It looks like you ordered HHBs about a month ago for the first time. If he's eating the HHBs, that's an important part of the treatment, but the Henry's blocks alone are not enough to cure MBD. You need the treatment posted by Tickle's Mom.

There is really no such thing as a "high calcium" veggie; even the best veggies have only a few mgs of calcium. They must eat a rodent block or squirrel block every day.

Never use calcium with Vit D; not Reptical, not human tablets. Reptiles and humans have much higher Vit D requirements relative to calcium, so the balance is off (too much Vit D). Excess Vit D makes the MBD worse. Use the PLAIN CALCIUM; Tums are fine.

Please follow the treatment posted by Tickle's Mom exactly. It has saved hundreds of squirrels. If you have questions, post them here.

As Astra posted, we need an exact list of his diet; amounts and frequency, as well as any supplements given. He will need to be on a very controlled diet, plus calcium supplementation, for many months to come.

Please keep us updated, every day if you can.

:goodpost :grouphug

[quagmire]

should I put him in a smaller cage and clean each day to verify what he is eating exactly. He has food stored all over the porch and his big cage. Just tried to give HHB but he would not eat it. Maybe if he has nothing else to eat he will eat HHB.

[quagmire]

cannot find PLAIN CALCIUM any where!

[4skwerlz]

cannot find PLAIN CALCIUM any where!

Tums are fine for now. Use those.

[4skwerlz]

should I put him in a smaller cage and clean each day to verify what he is eating exactly. He has food stored all over the porch and his big cage. Just tried to give HHB but he would not eat it. Maybe if he has nothing else to eat he will eat HHB.

Not a bad idea. Clean out all his nut stashes. You need to control his diet.

You might want to keep him in his cage a bit more until he improves. With MBD, they can break a bone just jumping onto the floor.

[quagmire]

just ordered Henry's MBD KIT.

will the UVB light bulb be of any use?

[quagmire]

Quagmire put himself to bed for the rest of the night :)
thanks for all your help. I am putting myself to bed as well.

[4skwerlz]

just ordered Henry's MBD KIT.

will the UVB light bulb be of any use?

Not really necessary. Your squirrel will get all the Vit D he needs from the diet, and there's a risk of eye damage from the UVB bulbs. However, a little time spent in natural sunlight IN THE SHADE (like a covered porch) on days when it's not too hot, is always good for health and wellbeing.

[quagmire]

He ate a entire HHB this morning along with a snack size carrot. He spent 30 minutes in the sun. Did not eat his Tums. Working on crushing it. I short have video if need to see.

[quagmire]

This evening he ate half HHB. I tried crushing Tums and mixing with water but he will not eat/drink. Tried giving him a whole Tums but he still will not eat. Cannot give Reptical or human Calcium/vit D3, so I do not know what to do to make him eat more calcium. He had 30 more minutes of sun this afternoon along with UVB bulb this evening.

[astra]

This evening he ate half HHB. I tried crushing Tums and mixing with water but he will not eat/drink. Tried giving him a whole Tums but he still will not eat. Cannot give Reptical or human Calcium/vit D3, so I do not know what to do to make him eat more calcium. He had 30 more minutes of sun this afternoon along with UVB bulb this evening.
try crushing Tums in a little bit of fruit juice (just pick the one with no added sugar):grouphug

[4skwerlz]

I tried crushing Tums and mixing with water but he will not eat/drink.

You must MAKE him take it. Do you have a syringe? Mix the Tums with water to make a liquid paste, draw it into the syringe, put the syringe into the side of his mouth and squeeze it into his mouth; he will have to swallow some of it. If you don't have a syringe, you can rub the paste onto his gums.

If he doesn't eat/drink, he can't live. You must get the calcium into him.

[quagmire]

Got Henry's MBD Kit. This morning he ate/drank 3 mL of the calcium powder mixed in apple juice. This evening he drank 3 mL calcium powder mixed in orange juice. He likes it so far, should be easy to keep him eating it. If i am calculating correctly one serving size of calcium = .8grams(1/4 tsp) which has 330 mg of calcium. He got that twice today so that is 640 mg. According to the chart for week 1 he should get 500 mg per day, so he is on schedule.

Will orange juice or apple juice cause diarrhea?

He is still getting one hour concentrated sunlight. He only ate half Henry block today. Will try the vitamin shake tomorrow along with calcium and HHB.

[4skwerlz]

Are you seeing any improvement in his symptoms since giving the calcium? Appetite? Activity? Etc?

OJ or apple juice shouldn't cause a problem in an adult squirrel. But you can also try vanilla yogurt, avocado, even peanut butter, to mix with his calcium.

[Jackie in Tampa]

:grouphug
you are getting the best help there is...
please follow all instructions...
hoping for better updates in the future...
I have a pet sq, Rocky, who has been in recovery for 5 years ...:thumbsup
hugs hugs hugs

[quagmire]

no change in condition. He still moves slowly as if in pain and occasionally squeaks. He does not run, jump, hop, but walks and is very alert mentally. His appetite is good but trying to only allow him to eat HHB. His teeth chatter on occasion and when he is climbing sometimes his back legs tremble. He still acts weak in his back legs. He would just lay around all day in his bed if I don't get him up and put him outside in the sun or have him sit with me on the sofa. I think it is because his legs are weak and he aches. He seems more physically active while in the sun, maybe it's the heat or outside stimulus.

This morning he drank his dosage of calcium and ate broccoli and cauliflower, but would not eat HHB.

[quagmire]

Today he ate his daily dosage of calcium (one on a.m. one in p.m.)
he drank daily allowance of Henry's vitamin-mineral powder supplement w/o.j.
he got his one hour sunlight
he ate half HHB, broccoli, almond, tsp baby food peas.
he walked around inside the house and on his porch quite a bit today. It was fairly cool this morning so maybe he will eat more preparing for fall/winter
thanks for support:Love_Icon

[4skwerlz]

Today he ate his daily dosage of calcium (one on a.m. one in p.m.)
he drank daily allowance of Henry's vitamin-mineral powder supplement w/o.j.
he got his one hour sunlight
he ate half HHB, broccoli, almond, tsp baby food peas.
he walked around inside the house and on his porch quite a bit today. It was fairly cool this morning so maybe he will eat more preparing for fall/winter
thanks for support:Love_Icon

You should see his appetite improve as his MBD gets better. Try to spread the calcium into more than two doses per day. Keep doing what you're doing, and keep us posted as often as possible.

Hoping for more improvement.:grouphug

[astra]

You should see his appetite improve as his MBD gets better. Try to spread the calcium into more than two doses per day. Keep doing what you're doing, and keep us posted as often as possible.

Hoping for more improvement.:grouphug
:goodpost :grouphug :)

[poohpooh]

I,m new to the board but I see all the references to different blocks and meds. You have stated that you can't find calcium alone. I find that the best source of natural calcium comes from acorns. You can store them up like I do or purchase them online. I'm not saying not to use the other products and ideals. Just if you have picky eater give it a try it's their natural diet in the wild. I use blocks and yogurt myself with fresh vegs and antler.

•USDA Nutrient Database: Nutrient Data Laboratory



Acorns are more impressive in terms of the minerals they contain. A 1 oz. serving of dried acorns contains 0.29 mg of iron, 0.19 mg of zinc, 15 mg of calcium and 201 mg of potassium. The same sized portion of raw acorns supplies you with 0.22 mg of iron, 0.14 mg of zinc, 12 mg of calcium and 153 mg of potassium.

Not a good source for vitamins.



Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/524274-nutrients-in-acorns/#ixzz1Zghky6Ky

[quagmire]

just and update,
Quagmire is getting calcium three times per day along with Henry's powder protein. If there is any reason why these two should not be mixed please advise.
He is getting at least one hour direct sun light per day.
He does not eat Henry's blocks any more. He is nibbling on rodent blocks. He eats peas, carrots, tomatoes, grapes, apple, granola, almond. He has not eaten kale or swiss chard recently.

Best news: he is walking around the porch floor, even trying to run when startled by outside wild birds. He has been taking single steps with his back legs instead of keeping them together and kinda hoping. He has jumped off my shoulder to a chair about six inches away....he is even standing up on his back legs while holding food in his front paws to eat, as opposed to lying on his belly to eat.....big improvement...hoping he gets even better :rotfl

[SammysMom]

:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup :wahoo :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

[astra]

good update.

However, I would limit his jumping and running as even though his external symptoms might have subsided and he seems to be more active, the internal condition/damage of MBD is, most likely, still there. His bones are not completely healed and he may end up injuring himself with a jump that is too high, or too rash.

What block and how many per day does he eat?... He should not be just nibbling on it, he should be eating it. If he stopped eating HHBs and is just nibbling on a rodent block, that's not good.
Give the block/HHB first thing in am before anything else. Do no give him grapes, apples and almonds until he finishes his HHB, block and dark green leafy veggies. He must eat blocks, he must eat greens, or he will relapse.

Please keep posting updates!:grouphug

[quagmire]

Quagmire update:

he is not eating Henry's blocks or his Kaytee pellets like he should. He eats plenty of other stuff. He is getting powder calcium, protein, and Henry's Vita-Mins.

He looks to be gaining some weight. Should he be gaining weight quicker? Should he focus more on carbs or protein?

He is moving better but still wants to sleep most of the time. He goes outside in the grass and roots around eating what ever he chooses, such as small acorns and weeds/grass. The lawn is not treated and other wild squirrels live there. When he gets tired/bored/frightened he walks himself back inside the porch.

It has been cool the past couple days in central Florida.I'm thinking that is why he has gotten out of his bed on his own.

[Jackie in Tampa]

:poke overdue for a quagmire update Jeff and Sherry!
and how about a pic too??:D