Need help... found some babies who may have been poisoned...

[rednek_gurl]

My husband called me this morning a little while after he left for work. He and his boss found 3 baby squirrels under the hood of one of their trucks. He called me and I went to get them. The problem is, the boss had put rat poison under the hood to keep rats from chewing up the wires, and the babies were sitting on top of it. So I'm afraid they may have eaten some, or the mother may have eaten it and died, leaving them there alone.

Please! I need all the info I can get! I have 2 flying squirrels, which I raised, so I'm not entirely new to this. I know how to make the squirrel blocks, and I have the milk to feed the babies, I just don't know how to handle them if they actually have been poisoned. PLEASE HELP!!!

[Jackie in Tampa]

are they bleeding from any orifice?
where are you in ark?
'close to' is good enough...we just need a general area...
hang on...someone will be on soon...

[Jackie in Tampa]

charcoal for poisoning can be bought at drug store...
how old are babies? eyes open?
ask what type poison BOSS used, please.

[Pierre]

Rat poison has a pretty good antidote if you catch it soon enough. It is vitamin K.

Not sure the dose you'd need. Someone could research that. If you can find out the brand he used, that would help.

How are the babies doing? What age, etc.?

[Jackie in Tampa]

Pierre, I have no experience with rat poison...thanks for jumping in!:)

[rednek_gurl]

Not sure how old they are. They are fully furred, eyes open, but they are pretty small. I'm thinking they are probably still nursing. They seem to be ok. No bleeding, just scared. I have one in my lap... he's snuggling. :) I can take a picture in just a minute. Not sure on the type of poison, but I can probably find out. I need to know EXACTLY how to administer whatever it is I need to give them. I have never had to nurse a (possibly) poisoned baby before, so be as specific as possible please. I'm hoping they aren't into solid foods yet... maybe they didn't nibble on the poison. (praying) I am in south west AR.

[mousehole]

Rednek how long ago did you find the squirrels? And how old are the babies? Most Rat poison manufactured these days kills almost instantly.

Jackie's question is spot on the money - check for bleeding from the nose or the anus, if there's no sign of blood or cramping then there's a good chance that they didn't ingest any of the toxin.

I would as a precaution give them a cottonball bath to ensure that they have no poison on the fur or skin.

They will have to be monitored over the next few days but unfortunately there's not much else that can be done.

Even with a full size dog a transfusion is often required as the blood thinners that are used in most commercial poison's attach themselves to the blood platelets and cannot be cleaned any other way.

Ah yes Pierre the vitamin K will help if given fast enough good point.

[rednek_gurl]

I had just walked in the door with them when I posted the first message... so I've had them a little less than an hour. There is no bleeding, and they don't act like they are in pain. They are snuggled up like little puppies. I talked to my husband... he's not where he can ask the boss about the poison, but his coworker said the box is at the office and he can check it out when he gets back. It will be a couple of hours though. I saw the posion itself... it looked like a yellow waxy block with what looked like bird seed in it. How do I give them the vitamin K? Do I crush a pill and mix it with water? Can they be overdosed on it? I'll get 'em cleaned up ASAP. I had thought about that when I saw 'em sitting on the poison...

[rednek_gurl]

Here are a couple of pics... I hope I did it right... never posted a pic on here before. :)

[Jackie in Tampa]

what I would do...
go get charcoal and vitamn K immediately
then start hydration and keep them warm....
start researching what to watch for etc...
I have to feed baby sqs...will ck back as soon as I can..
I will keep you in my GOOD THOUGHTS>>>
Bless the little ones...
Pierre, do you have experience with this? anyone?

[rednek_gurl]

I have them in a 10 gallon aquarium for now until I can get a better cage built. I put the one I was snuggling with back in the tank with the others so I could take a pic. He had a little fit... wanted me to get him back out. I put my hand beside him and he climbed up in my hand. I think I have a spoiled squirrel.... that didn't take long. lol :)

[NovaAlison23]

My little Jack was like that. He was much happier in my lap then in his cage. Luckily he has outgrown that and is okay in his cage with his brothers and sisters now. Sending good thoughts your way for 3 healthy babies.

[rednek_gurl]

I will go get that stuff right now. What kind of charcoal? I have never had to use it before, so I may be asking a stupid question, but do you mean like bbq charcoal? And should I get some pedialyte? Can you tell how old they are by the pics? Should I use a bottle with them?

[CritterMom]

Activated charcoal from the drug store. When you ask the pharmacist for it, also tell him that you desperately need some wither 1cc or 3cc syringes - nothing larger. Do NOT use a bottle.

You can make your own pedialyte:
1 teaspoon salt
3 Tablespoons sugar
1 quart water

They usually like it better than the store bought.

[NovaAlison23]

Avitivated charcoal. But it only has a very short window to be used (I had a sister vet walk me through charcoaling a dog when she ate chocolate chip chocolate brownies and had a racing heart). From my searches it looks like health food stores should carry it. Vitamin Cottage and such.

[rednek_gurl]

Thanks CritterMom... I'll go get some now. What about the vitamin k? How do I fix that for them?

[stepnstone]

Not sure what kind of chips you are using in the tank, cedar is not good for squirrels. They need something to snuggle down in like pieces of old t-shirts, strips of sheet, fleese, anything like that they won't get their toes/nails caught in. No towels or that type material.

[rednek_gurl]

Stepnstone, I am using Natural Critter Care bedding. It is made from "reclaimed cellulose fiber". I use it with my rat. She loves it. :) It's soft and doesn't have any scent. I am going to find them a t-shirt to snuggle with in a little bit. I've gotta run to the store right now to get the charcoal and vitamin K. Be back soon! And thanks to everyone for their help and advise!!

[rednek_gurl]

OK... I got the charcoal (200mg) and they gave me two 100cc syringes. But they told me I can't get vitamin K over the counter... have to have a prescription for it. So I guess I'll give 'em the charcoal and make up some (homemade) pedialyte and hope for the best. Now.... how do I mix the charcoal up? :)

[NovaAlison23]

1-888-4ANI-HELP

The recommended dose of activated charcoal for all species of animals is 1-3 gm of charcoal per 1 kg body weight.

^^ This is the info I can find online. It is supposed to be in a slurry. Please try to call the number to get specifics. They are animal poison control. Please note that I'm not an expert, just trying to help you out while I wait for phone calls.

[Pierre]

OK, the good new is, if they ate the poison and it is the anticoagulant kind [still find out], you have a window of time to start the vitamin K treatment. It does not kill quickly. Takes days or a week.

The bad new is, you'll need a prescription or someone to send you some. Realize that you will need to give the vitamin K for a few weeks, but if you start right away [and you would need to for best result], you should have a good outcome [they should live].

They bleed internally over time and you would not necessarily see any blood coming out of them. They might cough and try to vomit and such as they start to bleed in their lungs, but you ideally don't want it to go that far.

I'm not sure of the dose [yet] for vitamin K.

Are you sure they ate some [was the block right there and had been nibbled on]? Where were the babies when they were found? Etc etc.

[rednek_gurl]

Thanks Nova :) I'll give em a call. I just weighed one of them and he weighed 0.148 kg, so this is gonna get confusing. lol One of the babies is chewing on a squirrel block, so that's promising...

[rednek_gurl]

Pierre: I am still waiting to find out what kind of poison it was. I'll have to wait til my husband gets back to the office which will probably be another couple of hours. The poison looked as if it had been broken apart, so it was hard to tell if it had been chewed on. And I don't know how long it had been under the hood (may have been days...), or how long the babies were under there. They may have been chewing on it for a while, or they may have gotten scared and ran under the hood for the first time this morning when they saw people. I'll have to find out from my hubby when he gets home why they were even looking under the hood to begin with... (having a problem with the truck or did they see the squirrels run up into the engine?) When he called me and I went to go get them, they were still under the hood trying to hide amongst the hoses and stuff. They were literally sitting right on top of the poison block, but like I said, I don't know where they were before my husband and his boss opened the hood. They may have ran to that side of the engine when they got scared. Hard to tell whether they ate any or not.

[Pierre]

Cool. Hopefully you'll have more info soon.

BTW, it seems you can buy vitamin K at some vitamin stores. If you do, only get Vitamin K 1. K 1 only. Hoping your poison control number can help.

[DipityDane]

Praying the babies havent been eating the poison! Most brands are anticoagulant type toxins.....Im not sure on the K dose but I do know that OD can cause some liver issues or hemolytic anemia which is probably rare and with major OD. The babies look to be about 8 weeks old. Keep us posted....if you need assitance hollar....we probably arent far from you.
Erin

[rednek_gurl]

Can you tell by the pics how old they may be? How long do they need to drink milk? I am going to order some formula from Fox Valley and need to know which one I should get. Do I need the one for up to 4 wks or the one for 4 wks and up?

[rednek_gurl]

Thanks Dipity Dane! I guess that answered my question about which formula I should get! :)

[DipityDane]

Judging by the pics they look around 8 weeks....they still will need formula for awhile.along with the rodent block.....Id definitely say they are over 4 weeks.

[DipityDane]

Youre welcome! :D

[Nancy in New York]

Here's a link to help determine the age of your baby.
I am guessing more like 6 weeks...:thinking
http://www.squirrelsandmore.com/feature/174/how-to-determine-the-age-of-a-baby-squirrel.htm

[rednek_gurl]

I think you're right Nancy. Their tails aren't very "fluffy" yet... and they aren't really afraid of me. Which is a good thing. I was afraid they would chew me up when I tried to hold 'em, but they are pretty calm.

[Nancy in New York]

I think you're right Nancy. Their tails aren't very "fluffy" yet... and they aren't really afraid of me. Which is a good thing. I was afraid they would chew me up when I tried to hold 'em, but they are pretty calm.
:thumbsup :thumbsup Pretty calm is a good thing...for now.:D

[4skwerlz]

Did they look like this? (Sorry, not a great pic.)
149501

149500

If so, it may be difethialone, a second-generation anticoagulant poison. Very bad stuff.

Activated charcoal will not help. The antidote is Vit K1 (or Kj). Started immediately.


Anticoagulants are defined as chronic (death occurs after one to two weeks after ingestion of the lethal dose, rarely sooner), single-dose (second generation) or multiple-dose (first generation) rodenticides, acting by effective blocking of the vitamin K cycle, resulting in inability to produce essential blood-clotting factors — mainly coagulation factors II (prothrombin), VII (proconvertin), IX (Christmas factor) and X (Stuart factor).
In addition to this specific metabolic disruption, massive toxic doses of 4-hydroxycoumarin or 4-hydroxythiacoumarin and indandione anticoagulants cause damage to tiny blood vessels (capillaries), increasing their permeability, causing diffuse internal bleedings (haemorrhagias). These effects are gradual, developing over several days, but claims that they are painless are unfounded: in humans both warfarin poisoning and haemophilia commonly cause moderate to severe pain from bleeding into muscles and joints.[1] In the final phase of the intoxication, the exhausted rodent collapses in hypovolemic circulatory shock or severe anemia and dies calmly. However, because of the duration of discomfort and pain before death it has been suggested that the use of rodenticides can be considered as inhumane.[2]
The main benefit of anticoagulants over other poisons is that the time taken for the poison to induce death means that the rats do not associate the damage with their feeding habits.
First generation rodenticidal anticoagulants generally have shorter elimination half-lives,[3] require higher concentrations (usually between 0.005% and 0.1%) and consecutive intake over days in order to accumulate the lethal dose, and less toxic than second generation agents.
Second generation agents are far more toxic than first generation. They are generally applied in lower concentrations in baits — usually on the order of 0.001% to 0.005% — are lethal after a single ingestion of bait and are also effective against strains of rodents that became resistant to first generation anticoagulants; thus, the second generation anticoagulants are sometimes referred to as "superwarfarins".[4]


Difethialone does have the antidote Vita-
min Kj which is always effective when the treatment is done
correctly. An antidotal therapeutic method is proposed
following a dog study (Lechevin 1986).

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=vpcthirteen&sei-redir=1#search=%22Difethialone%20antidote%22

[4skwerlz]

You CAN get Vitamin K1 without a prescription!

Maybe not at that pharmacy, but at a health food store. Charcoal won't help if it's an anticoagulant.

[Pierre]

You CAN get Vitamin K1 without a prescription!

Maybe not at that pharmacy, but at a health food store. Charcoal won't help if it's an anticoagulant.

Yep! I pointed that out above. You need the K 1 tho, not K 2 or K 3. So a vet site stated.

[rednek_gurl]

OK... I am gonna go see if I can find a health food store around this small town. Thanks again everyone. Please be praying for us!!

[4skwerlz]

Yep! I pointed that out above. You need the K 1 tho, not K 2 or K 3. So a vet site stated.

That's correct. It has to be K1 (also called Kj), which is phylloquinone, the natural, plant-based form.

Thank goodness, it is completely nontoxic in rodents, so dosing won't be as critical.

If you can't find it locally, I can give you link to an online supplier that could overnight it to you.

[Pierre]

That's correct. It has to be K1 (also called Kj), which is phylloquinone, the natural, plant-based form.

Thank goodness, it is completely nontoxic in rodents, so dosing won't be as critical.

If you can't find it locally, I can give you link to an online supplier that could overnight it to you.


:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

[rednek_gurl]

OK... hubby just got here. He took a pic of the poison. He said it was called Bite II. I have included the pic on this post. Can someone please find out which type of poison this is and what I need to do for these babies? I need to get to class now. Will be back on around 6. Thanks so much!

BTW... they drank some of the pedialyte I mixed up for them. One didn't drink but about 1/4 of a syringe, one drank about 1 3/4 of a syringe, but the last one drank 5 1/2 syringes full! I guess he was thirsty! And they are all nibbling the squirrel block. :)

[NovaAlison23]

1.2 Synopsis:

Bromadiolone is very toxic for all mammalians. A single dose may cause death in rodent species. The anticoagulant effect can be successfully countered by vitamin K1 administration.


2.1.2 Mode of action:

Bromadiolone is vitamin K antagonist. The main site of its action is the liver, where several of the blood coagulation precursors under vitamin K dependent post translation processing take place before they are converted into the respective procoagulant zymogens. The point of action appears to be the inhibition of K1 epoxide reductase.

2.1.3 Excretion products:

The major route of elimination in different species after oral administration is through the faeces. The liver is the main organ of accumulation. Bromadiolone has been found in the liver as an unchanged parent compound. Elimination from the liver is biphasic with an initial rapid phase of 2-8 days and a slower phase with half-life of 170 days.

4.4.1 Early symptoms of poisoning:

The main features of bromadiolone poisoning are excessive bruising, nose and gum bleeding and blood in urine and faeces in the less severe cases, and bleeding from several organs within the body leading to shock and possibly death in the more severe cases. The onset of the signs of poisoning may not be evident until a few days after ingestion.

5.1.4 Treatment:

All suspected poisonsed patients should receive medical attention immediately. If poisoning is recent (within 2-3 hours) gastric lavage has been recommended. Repeated administration of activated charcoal is useful. Vitamin K1 (phytomenadione) is the specific antidote of choice. Dosage is dependent on coagulation parameters, mainly prothrombin time.

If the patient is bleeding severely, 25 mg of vitamin K1 (phytomenadione) should be given by slow intravenous injection. Prothrombin time should be checked at 3-hourly intervals in severe cases and after 8-10 hours in less severe cases. If no improvement occurs, vitamin K1 injection should be repeated. In moderate to minor cases of poisoning, vitamin K1 may be given in lower doses.

(The treatment is for humans and mammals. It can be taken in through the skin, the poison. So I suggest K1 NOW. It says they should start dying 24-7 days after poisoning, but can be recovered with K1 and charcoal, although it's probably too late for charcoal. Charcoal keeps it from absorbing the poison into the system, in something so little it has been digested already)


AGAIN I'm NOT a pro, just doing research on the web for you while you handle your babies.

[lila01]

I just had a puppy that ate a tray of rat posio. And we didn't know it til about three day later and it almost killed him! It has been a week now and he is starting to do much better! So if they did eat it watch them very close for the next few days! He had no bleeding that we could see it was all internal and he had to have a plasma transfusion and is still on vitamin k for the next two weeks it will b three weeks total that he's on it! I hope they r ok because I can tell u from experience that it is very scary how sick it make them so quick!! Prayers for the babies and you!

[rednek_gurl]

Well, the babies seem to be OK so far. I got a little bit of milk down them. They seem to prefer the squirrel blocks. It took a while to even get them interested in the milk, and only one drank more than 1 syringe of it. They took the pedialyte a lot better. How much should they be getting per feeding and how many feedings per day? Should I feed them during the night? Thanks so much for all the help today. Hope everyone has a wonderful night! :)

[Nancy in New York]

Well, the babies seem to be OK so far. I got a little bit of milk down them. They seem to prefer the squirrel blocks. It took a while to even get them interested in the milk, and only one drank more than 1 syringe of it. They took the pedialyte a lot better. How much should they be getting per feeding and how many feedings per day? Should I feed them during the night? Thanks so much for all the help today. Hope everyone has a wonderful night! :)
OK I am guessing that your little ones are 6-7 weeks old by the photos. Also a guess, but I am thinking perhaps they weigh around 140 grams. Rule of thumb, feed 5-7% of their body weight. So each feeding should be between 7-10 cc's of formula, a little more if they want it, but watch for bloating, hard bellies. 4 times a day. They need to start drinking more, do you use nipples? They may prefer that.
They need fleece in their space, something to burrow into.
PM me your address, I will hook you up....I have plenty.:Love_Icon :Love_Icon
They will need a smaller cage real soon. I will look for the link in a little while and send it to you. Good luck with these littles...send me your address.:Love_Icon

[rednek_gurl]

This morning's feeding went a lot better. They all drank at least 5cc, but I think it was more like 7-8ccs. They were pretty hungry. I need to dye their tails or something so I can tell them apart! I got them out one by one and tried to feed them, but they prefered to be in their cage while they were drinking their milk. I was keeping up with how much each one drank until I put them back in their cage. Should they be able to drink out of a bowl yet? Should they have a water bowl in their cage now? I am afraid they will just dump it over... Anyways, they were peppy and playful after their feeding. They were running around, biting each other's tails.... then the milk took effect and they curled up and went back to sleep. :) :Love_Icon