Another Feeding Question: FV too rich?

[Adventurista]

Quick Recap:
My baby foxer is about 2 1/2 - 3 weeks now, I think. I've had him for 2 weeks. Started on Esbilac, switched to gmf while waiting for FV. He gained no weight during that time (18-20g). He took to the FV really well, now weighs 24g since last Saturday night (fed .6-1cc every two hours over the weekend). However:

He likes the FV and is now at full strength. He should be getting 1.2cc per feeding, which I've switched to every 3 1/5 to 4 hours. It seems like his stomach is too small for this amount. He does fine for about .7cc, then falls asleep or refuses to feed for a little while. Generally after 3-4 minutes he'll resume but can only take 1cc at one feeding. Toward the end it seems like it's just too much or too rich for him (although at the beginning he can't get enough and I have to slow him down). He also hasn't gained any weight since Monday night.

I'm considering switching his feeding schedule to .7cc every 2.5 - 3 hours, so feeding a less than the recommended amount, but feeding more often. Would this sound reasonable? Any other suggestions?

I ordered the booster from Nick at Fox Valley today as well, but it won't be here until probably next week. :thankyou

Se

[Rhapsody]

Feeding more often can cause BLOAT (which can be fatal) -- I would go for Longer times in between Feedings...... say every 3-4 hours then He will prob eat more FV as well.

[momma2boo]

Quick Recap:
My baby foxer is about 2 1/2 - 3 weeks now, I think. I've had him for 2 weeks. Started on Esbilac, switched to gmf while waiting for FV. He gained no weight during that time (18-20g). He took to the FV really well, now weighs 24g since last Saturday night (fed .6-1cc every two hours over the weekend). However:

He likes the FV and is now at full strength. He should be getting 1.2cc per feeding, which I've switched to every 3 1/5 to 4 hours. It seems like his stomach is too small for this amount. He does fine for about .7cc, then falls asleep or refuses to feed for a little while. Generally after 3-4 minutes he'll resume but can only take 1cc at one feeding. Toward the end it seems like it's just too much or too rich for him (although at the beginning he can't get enough and I have to slow him down). He also hasn't gained any weight since Monday night.

I'm considering switching his feeding schedule to .7cc every 2.5 - 3 hours, so feeding a less than the recommended amount, but feeding more often. Would this sound reasonable? Any other suggestions?

I ordered the booster from Nick at Fox Valley today as well, but it won't be here until probably next week. :thankyou

Se

Something doesn't sound right.
1) A foxer at 3 weeks of age, I would think, would weigh more than 20 grams
2) He should be eating far more than .7 ccs

Are you sure you're reading the scale and the syringe correctly?

EDIT: Maybe I am confusing another squirrel but I thought foxers were, in general, a bigger squirrel. Maybe I am mistaken (I only get grays here in Florida)

[Nancy in New York]

Something doesn't sound right.
1) A foxer at 3 weeks of age, I would think, would weigh more than 20 grams
2) He should be eating far more than .7 ccs

Are you sure you're reading the scale and the syringe correctly?

EDIT: Maybe I am confusing another squirrel but I thought foxers were, in general, a bigger squirrel. Maybe I am mistaken (I only get grays here in Florida)

I think that we established that her little one is a red, and not a foxer....:D

[Adventurista]

I think that we established that her little one is a red, and not a foxer....:D


Well, I know I'm reading the scale right because it's digital, so I'm assuming my math is right....but then again, I majored in English for a reason! :flash3

How do I know what type he is? I'm so ignorant about squirrels! I actually thought reds and foxes were the same? I think all we have here (Idaho) in the towns are foxes. My BIL is with Fish and Game and called him a fox squirrel. I've been a little concerned about his weight, too, but he seems okay otherwise (again, very ignorant on the squirrel subject, however. I'm also guessing on his age. He's starting to get very light fur on his body and his tail has a bit more. I've had him just about two weeks now....

[island rehabber]

We need a pic. :) There IS a problem with foxers (sciurus niger) being called "reds" in some parts of the country, when "reds" should be the tiny little stinkers we know and love (tamasciurus hudsonicus). They couldn't be more different in terms of size and weight...
That said, I agree with Rhapsody that you should stretch out feedings and let him take a bit more. FV goes thru the system much more slowly than GM or Esbilac.

[Adventurista]

Thank heavens for you all. Honestly, if it weren't for all the hlp you've given me, this poor thing would be dead! I'll snap a pic of him in a few minutes...just fed him, now I'm eating! :D

I'm also trying to do some research to see what actually lives here...

[Nancy in New York]

Thank heavens for you all. Honestly, if it weren't for all the hlp you've given me, this poor thing would be dead! I'll snap a pic of him in a few minutes...just fed him, now I'm eating! :D

I'm also trying to do some research to see what actually lives here...

This is what you posted to me 9/2/11, this is why I assumed he was a red...:D

You sent me pictures, which I posted, but he is such a tiny little peanut, it's so difficult to tell. My only thought is that if he is a red, that would explain the slow weight gain....:dono Perhaps new pictures would help...:) These are what you sent to me....a little difficult to tell what he is...:dono :thinking

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/August%202011/DSC_09131.jpg

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/August%202011/untitled3.jpg

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/August%202011/untitled.jpg

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/August%202011/untitled1.jpg





Re: How rapidly should they gain weight?

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Yes, I'll post a picture of him right now (I hope...haven't done that on this forum yet). He's undoubtedly a red. I'm in Idaho, and that's all we have in the cities!
I will say that otherwise he seems okay. He sleeps, he has an appetite, he even makes cute little noises at me. One thing I've also been wondering is if I should hold/nuture him more? I'm trying to not do too much because I'm afraid he'll imprint to me, although from what I've been told by (non-squirrelly) others, that's probably impossible to prevent. But I have dogs, and I don't think I should also have a squirrel pet.

[Adventurista]

Again, I sort of thought reds and foxes were interchangeable. I looked at some pics online, and the foxes look more like what we see around the neighborhood, not so much the reds. Hopefully I'm not doing anything wrong! I just weighed him again 24g. He was 18 when I got him 2 weeks ago, and hovered between 18 and 20 until I got the FV, then jumped to 24 and has stayed there since Monday. I'm nervous that something's wrong.

*the scab on his left elbow is from a big laceration that was on his arm when I got him. It cut all the way through the epidermis. I've been putting Neosporin on it after every feeding and it looks like it's healing well.

[Adventurista]

Also, I've been feeding him approx every 3 hours since Monday, trying to get 1 - 1.2cc in him. Tonight at his 7:30pm feeding he actually ate the entire 1.2cc fine---usually he falls asleep or just won't take anymore after .7 or .8cc. It kind of seems like he starts gagging on it at the end---he's not, but he has that look like when you eat half a cheesecake and want to barf. Not that I've ever done that....:nono

[island rehabber]

It kind of seems like he starts gagging on it at the end---he's not, but he has that look like when you eat half a cheesecake and want to barf. Not that I've ever done that....:nono

He may be doing what we call a "feeding trance", or "guppy mouth". it's harmless but very frustrating because often they don't actually swallow -- just go thru the motions. Tap him lightly on the top of his head or wiggle the syringe when he does this.

[Adventurista]

He does that several times, actually. But he'll get to about .7cc and just stop (keeps turning his head away) or falls asleep. Sometimes I'll let him rest for a couple of minutes and then try to get him to eat again.

Does he look okay? I keep worrying that he looks skinny. Are you able to determine what kind he is? I'm looking on some sites and it looks like Idaho actually has several varieties.

[island rehabber]

I'm going out on a limb here and say that he looks like a blinkie. A BLACK Eastern grey squirrel pinky! I could be wrong, it could be the lighting, but that's what I think. :D

[Adventurista]

He looks okay. Could be a wee bit plumper but not bad at all. To me he looks like a grey squirrel, but he's so young it's hard to tell. He must have been just born when you got him. Did he still have the umbilical dot?

You're doing a good job.:thumbsup It's really tough to take care of them when they're that young if you don't have a lot of experience.

Oh, thank you!!! I'm trying really hard. I've always had animals, but never anything this tiny--and no experience with squirrels, for sure. My husband (and everyone else) is amazed I've kept him on this long. Hard work! But so worth it. I'll keep posting some pics. We named him (which I've been trying not to do....because I contrary to what everyone here wants, I don't think it's good to keep him as a pet.) Anyway, his name is Kaikura, which is African for squirrel. Kai for short.

I'm holding him more, too, since I think it was Rhapsody said I should love on him more. My BIL does wildlife rehab, and with his, trying to hang out and bond with them is considered bad. It's so hard to know what the right thing to do is. I'm terrified that he'll wild up and be a terror this winter until I can release him this spring though---I'm having dread thoughts about that, to be honest.

EDIT: Oh, yes, he had the umbilical --actually it was like a small piece of cord attached. It came off yesterday, in fact and there was a teeny dot of blood on his tummy. His ears were already popped out a little when I got him. I kept thinking he was at two weeks then, but I think I was wrong.

[Adventurista]

This is the first pic of him, the day my friend found him 8/25/11. Wow, I can't believe he was so tiny now that I see that picture again!

[island rehabber]

4skwerlz is right -- a buddy for him would be wonderful. Wow, he is young! Just having kept him alive for so long is no small feat, Adventurista :bowdown When that black dot of his umbilicus falls off, he's 10 days old. :thumbsup

[Adventurista]

There are NO rehabbers around here! I kept trying to call people the day after we found him---they only do large animals, and I was told he would be fed to a snake or bird. :shakehead

I'm really sad about it, actually, because I think it would so great if he could grow up with another squirrel--and make it easier to release him. I'm terrified of two things: him wilding up and going insane on us this winter being the first one. The second is that I can't adequately prepare him for some reason and he dies the day after he's released. The responsibility seems a little overwhelming to me right now.

There is a girl I met in town who rehabbed and released one about three years ago, and it sounds like it was successful. She's going to loan me her cage when he gets bigger. I'm also considering calling the zoo again to see if they'll help me? They didn't want him because they already have too many bummers that are "important" animals. I have to say I'm so impressed with everyone down south---around here, these guys are vermin/pests. The only thing that's illegal with a squirrel is to shoot it within the city limits...and I think that's even something where they look the other way. :dono

[Adventurista]

I'm going out on a limb here and say that he looks like a blinkie. A BLACK Eastern grey squirrel pinky! I could be wrong, it could be the lighting, but that's what I think. :D

His tiny fur is coming in really dark! I'll keep posting pics as he progresses. Oh, and yay, me! I figured out how to post pics tonight. I just love this board---you are all so amazing. :grouphug

[Adventurista]

He's probably better off with you than a zoo.

Singletons can be released fine. You just have to spend a little more effort introducing them to the "locals" when they're in the release cage. Still, you might contact the local vets and humane society and let them know if someone brings in a baby squirrel, you'll take it. They're usually more than happy to pass them on to someone else! :D

Oh, my.....lol! I was thinking maybe I'd done my pennance! lol! :sanp3

[Adventurista]

4skwerlz is right -- a buddy for him would be wonderful. Wow, he is young! Just having kept him alive for so long is no small feat, Adventurista :bowdown When that black dot of his umbilicus falls off, he's 10 days old. :thumbsup

Hmmm....well, it fell off yesterday, but I had him for 12 days at that point? So, what would that mean?

Also, should I keep feeding him according to weight, then? I'm assuming yes? And is every ~3 hours still okay? I've slept the past two nights---so I feed him at 10:30 pm and then get up at 5 am to feed again---is this still okay?

[Adventurista]

Nope. It's just beginning.:D

Seriously, a sib will make your job a lot easier in the coming months. They will keep themselves amused in a cage. A singleton will demand lots and lots of attention from you. Just food for thought. It's all good. I know the winters are long in Idaho and you'll have a little furry buddy to play with. :)

Hmmm....well, maybe I'll put the word out. We're supposed to get some more thunderstorms tomorrow, so who knows? I guess I wouldn't mind another right now, but the thought of all those sleepless nights you all do....wow. You having my absolute admiration, all of you. :bowdown

[Adventurista]

He's eaten more at the last two feedings, and gained another gram! Maybe it just takes him a bit to adjust? :thumbsup

[Second Chance Wildlife]

I glanced over your post. It says you ordered booster from Nick. If you are referring to ultraboost a high fat cream supplement from Nick at fox valley your baby is much too young to have that. That product is used once their eyes have opened when they require more fat. I may have not read your post correctly but if your are talking about ultraboost please don't use this with that tiny baby.

[Adventurista]

Oh, good to know---didn't realize that! I thought someone had used it with closed-eye babies, so I'm glad you stopped me! I need to order some of the Henry's squirrel block too so I have that ready. When do they typically open their eyes?

Also, is there a link on this forum that has a sort of week-by-week charting of what they should weigh, when to introduce different foods, etc? I'm so new, and I think I'm getting a little overwhelmed! :D

[Adventurista]

I posted a few pics last night (taken last night). He gained another gram today, and he seems more eager to eat the full amount now, too. I'm planning to take another pic maybe Sunday and post progress?

[Nancy in New York]

I glanced over your post. It says you ordered booster from Nick. If you are referring to ultraboost a high fat cream supplement from Nick at fox valley your baby is much too young to have that. That product is used once their eyes have opened when they require more fat. I may have not read your post correctly but if your are talking about ultraboost please don't use this with that tiny baby.

I never heard that Ultraboost was suppose to be used on older babies. I have used this on all of my squirrels at all ages. On the back of the ultraboost package it states "Feeding rates may be increased or decreased according to the individual needs of the neonate":dono Why would heavy cream be alright to add, but not Ultraboost?

[Adventurista]

Maybe I'll call Nick at Fox Valley and ask him? He was sooo nice---even told me to call on a Sunday if I had questions! I don't think it will actually arrive until Monday or even Tuesday, though, so I'll have plenty of time to get some more info. :Phone

[island rehabber]

I agree with Nancy: Ultra Boost is specifically for neonates and pinkies who need that extra boost. After eyes opened babies are switched to 20/50, they don't need the extra fat. They are getting 50% as it is with that product. :thumbsup