Feeding my baby 6-8wk old squirrel PetAg Kitten Milk Replacer

[flsquirrel]

I just got a squirrel who is about 6-8 wks old, my friend who was caring for it for the past month+ was feeding it the Esbilac Puppy Milk, I spoke to a handful of locals who have had squirrels before from "pinky" up to 2+yrs old and all said to use instead Kitten Milk Replacer, that they had used it with good results and their squirrels all gre o be healthy and strong.

Anyone have any feedback or experience using Kitten Milk Replacer?

The baby is pooing runny when I got it earlier today, before I changed it to the Kitten Milk Replacer.

Thanks,
Jon

[island rehabber]

The Squirrel Board does not recommend ANY formula for feeding baby squirrels except Fox Valley Day One for squirrels: www.foxvalleynutiriton.com (http://www.foxvalleynutiriton.com), Day One 32/40 and 20/50.

Any formula made by Pet Ag, including Esbilac and KMR (Kitten Milk replacer), has been responsible in the past three years for thousands of deaths of wildlife babies, including squirrels. There are several Sticky threads here on TSB detailing this issue. Again, we DO NOT recommend anything but Fox Valley. There is a temporary Goat's Milk Formula you can use until the Fox Valley arrives, which is also available in the following thread:
http://www.thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29903

[MiriamS]

Hi Jon and welcome to TSB. Thank you for doing some research and finding us but oh my gosh, no KMR :nono Did you perhaps get it backwards and the local rehabbers recommended Puppy Replacement Formula instead? I'd be surprised to hear about any experts recommending that KMR be used for squirrels. It's for kittens and baby raccoons only. Squirrels are different altogether so you must stop the KMR right away. Even if you can't get goat's milk right away, stop the KMR and pick up some Pedialyte at the local drugstore or Wal-Mart.

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the emergency section where a flying squirrel expert can weigh in. It is an emergency because the KMR will kill your squirrel.

[flsquirrel]

which product specifically would I need for a squirrel 6-8 wks from Fox Valley?

With all due respect seeing as I am not experienced, this information about "not" using these other products makes me leary, I know of soooo many people who have used Esbilac and PetAg Kitten Milk Replacer successfully and until I got to this board hadnt heard "not" to use the other products.

I hope this is not to promote Fox Valley, again, dont take this in any wrong way, but when everyone else has been using the other products successfully, I thought to do what others have done to make sure these babies are well nutritioned, and live.

[flsquirrel]

Hi Jon and welcome to TSB. Thank you for doing some research and finding us but oh my gosh, no KMR :nono Did you perhaps get it backwards and the local rehabbers recommended Puppy Replacement Formula instead? I'd be surprised to hear about any experts recommending that KMR be used for squirrels. It's for kittens and baby raccoons only. Squirrels are different altogether so you must stop the KMR right away. Even if you can't get goat's milk right away, stop the KMR and pick up some Pedialyte at the local drugstore or Wal-Mart.

Perhaps this thread should be moved to the emergency section where a flying squirrel expert can weigh in. It is an emergency because the KMR will kill your flyer.

I dont have a flyer, I have a Florida Grey Squirrel....the folks who told me to use KMR are folks who have used it themselves, and their squirrels are over 2yrs old now days, and they have used it on every baby they have rescued.

Great, so , now "who" do I believe, the folks I know, or?

I just want to make sure im feeding it what it needs.

[MiriamS]

I apologize that I somehow got the idea you have a flying squirrel. I don't know why that happened in my head. Probably because I'm taking care of so many hurricane babies. Squirrels are squirrels, though, and while I am new at caring for grey squirrels, I've been reading about them on TSB for years and nobody uses KMR.

You can rest assured that nobody is pushing Fox Valley for financial and/or promotional purposes. Everyone actually spends EXTRA money to buy it because it's the best for the babies. Somewhere on TSB there are photos of baby squirrels from the same litter, some fed Fox Valley and the others Esbilac (puppy) and the difference is shockingly dramatic.

[flsquirrel]

I apologize that I somehow got the idea you have a flying squirrel. I don't know why that happened in my head. Probably because I'm taking care of so many hurricane babies. Squirrels are squirrels, though, and while I am new at caring for grey squirrels, I've been reading about them on TSB for years and nobody uses KMR.

You can rest assured that nobody is pushing Fox Valley for financial and/or promotional purposes. Everyone actually spends EXTRA money to buy it because it's the best for the babies. Somewhere on TSB there are photos of baby squirrels from the same litter, some fed Fox Valley and the others Esbilac (puppy) and the difference is shockingly dramatic.


Which product on fox valley would i need, i just dont want my little guy to die....great and i wasted $20 on KMR then.

[Nancy in New York]

Which product on fox valley would i need, i just dont want my little guy to die....great and i wasted $20 on KMR then.

You would get the 20/50 Fox Valley formula.
You would probably only need the pound bag of it since your little one is that age. If you send me your address through a pm, I will send you some. I have plenty here.

[MiriamS]

Which product on fox valley would i need, i just dont want my little guy to die....great and i wasted $20 on KMR then.
Money should not be a factor when caring for an animal BUT perhaps you can return it or sell it to one of your friends. You would be doing the right thing by that squirrel by ordering Fox Valley ASAP with expedited delivery. There are a lot of TSB members in Florida so perhaps you can get some from them to hold you over while you wait for the FV to arrive. :thumbsup

[MiriamS]

According to the map, it looks like you're not especially far from Lakeland and Tampa, where a number of TSB members live. I've sent them messages so maybe you can arrange something.

[flsquirrel]

You would get the 20/50 Fox Valley formula.
You would probably only need the pound bag of it since your little one is that age. If you send me your address through a pm, I will send you some. I have plenty here.

Thats awfully kind of you, i'll send pm.

I'm on this page http://www.foxvalleynutrition.com/main/prod.asp andI dont see anything that says 20/50 though?

[MiriamS]

The website is a little odd with its navigation.

http://www.foxvalleynutrition.com/prod/pricing.asp?CID=3&PLID=1

Click on 1 pound and it will be added to your cart.

[flsquirrel]

According to the map, it looks like you're not especially far from Lakeland and Tampa, where a number of TSB members live. I've sent them messages so maybe you can arrange something.

Its not about the money, but at the same time since I came into this inexperienced, without knowing what to do one can waste alot of money on the wrong things (such as I did).

I actually got it from my friend who is in Brandon Florida (hour away from me), he had been feeding it the puppy milk, said he's put in close to $100 so he said just to give him $100 for it since he is going on a cruise on 10/1, he only took it in because he was cutting down a palm tree and it fell out.

I personally got it to keep as a pet....but will be spending alot of time on this board to make sure I care for it appropriately.

Thanks for sending out the messages =)

[flsquirrel]

The website is a little odd with its navigation.

http://www.foxvalleynutrition.com/prod/pricing.asp?CID=3&PLID=1

Click on 1 pound and it will be added to your cart.

Awesome, thanks for the link, wow $10 vs the $20 I spent.

So at 6-8 wks will a pound take me all the way through to it being weaned out?

[MiriamS]

he had been feeding it the puppy milk
Wait, so has the baby been getting puppy replacement formula or kitten replacement formula? Makes a big difference even if you are going to transition to Fox Valley.

But you're smart to be prepared to do a bunch of research and keeping a grey squirrel as a "pet" has some serious pros and cons that you need to learn about. A proper cage will cost you another $100+ Then you will fall in love with the squirrel and start buying it all kinds of goodies. Trust me, it will happen. Unavoidable. So just learn and be prepared to take on the 5-10 year responsibility.

[flsquirrel]

Wait, so has the baby been getting puppy replacement formula or kitten replacement formula? Makes a big difference even if you are going to transition to Fox Valley.

But you're smart to be prepared to do a bunch of research and keeping a grey squirrel as a "pet" has some serious pros and cons that you need to learn about. A proper cage will cost you another $100+ Then you will fall in love with the squirrel and start buying it all kinds of goodies. Trust me, it will happen. Unavoidable. So just learn and be prepared to take on the 5-10 year responsibility.

It's been on the Esbilac since it fell out of the palm tree, I called some of my friends who have raised squirrels and they said i could stay on the esbilac, but that they had better results on the KMR, so I went and got it eh KMR and have so far only given it 1 feeding of it, and I have a partial can of Esbilac it came with.

[flsquirrel]

Wait, so has the baby been getting puppy replacement formula or kitten replacement formula? Makes a big difference even if you are going to transition to Fox Valley.

But you're smart to be prepared to do a bunch of research and keeping a grey squirrel as a "pet" has some serious pros and cons that you need to learn about. A proper cage will cost you another $100+ Then you will fall in love with the squirrel and start buying it all kinds of goodies. Trust me, it will happen. Unavoidable. So just learn and be prepared to take on the 5-10 year responsibility.

If all goes well I am going to build it a screened 4'-6' wide, 4' tall, and about 3' deep enclosure for it and put tree branches in it.

I was told once its weaned and on a natural diet, not to give it nuts if I'm going to keep it as a pet as it can become addicted and will attack just for the nuts, to give it a variety of fruits,, bananas, apples, etc, and that it can eat table food in moderation....does this sound about right?

I've have owned and raised African Grey's before, I know it's not a squirrel, but I have gone thru the whole hand feeding, etc with birds at least before, and its been a rewarding experience, plus I work from home, so I'm actually looking to raise it as my buddy.

[MiriamS]

It's been on the Esbilac since it fell out of the palm tree, I called some of my friends who have raised squirrels and they said i could stay on the esbilac, but that they had better results on the KMR, so I went and got it eh KMR and have so far only given it 1 feeding of it, and I have a partial can of Esbilac it came with.

Ohhh okay. Only one feeding of KMR might not be such an emergency. Perhaps I'm mistaken about the KMR but again, I've never ever heard of it being used for squirrels. So your question is what next? Is there a 24 hour store that sells goat's milk or pedialyte? I think either of those options would be better than the KMR or Esbilac PMR. Did your friend say how long the squirrel has been fed PMR and whether it had diarrhea during that time?

Based on my knowledge of African greys, I think you probably have a decent idea of what you're in for except that squirrels are not as smart as African greys so may not be as "well behaved" and "pet like." I would still advise reading as many threads on this board as possible before you decide to really keep this squirrel as a pet. The diet won't be as fruit based as you mentioned above and nuts can be fed as treats here and there but you are right in that it will not be fed human food.

[flsquirrel]

Ohhh okay. Only one feeding of KMR might not be such an emergency. Perhaps I'm mistaken about the KMR but again, I've never ever heard of it being used for squirrels. So your question is what next? Is there a 24 hour store that sells goat's milk or pedialyte? I think either of those options would be better than the KMR or Esbilac PMR. Did your friend say how long the squirrel has been fed PMR and whether it had diarrhea during that time?

Based on my knowledge of African greys, I think you probably have a decent idea of what you're in for except that squirrels are not as smart as African greys so may not be as "well behaved" and "pet like." I would still advise reading as many threads on this board as possible before you decide to really keep this squirrel as a pet. The diet won't be as fruit based as you mentioned above and nuts can be fed as treats here and there but you are right in that it will not be fed human food.

Yes I need to feed it tonight before I go to bed, and of course during the next few days until Fox Valley 20/50, I have a partial can of Esbilac left which is what my friend has been feeding it since he got it which it was probably a week or two old because it had really short hair almost none, and eyes still sealed at the time...and yes he says the poo was soft and diarrhea like, he says its bcus its a liquid diet for now, when i got it today it did poo and it was almost liquidy.

I did get a link from Nancy in New York for the Henry's blocks, and a link to a diet, so I will be pursuing that....but for tonight I may just give it either the KMR or the Esbilac just so it has food in its belly, and tomorrow?

[UDoWhat]

I just wanted to let you know that the KMR is not a good idea. It causes long bone malformation. The long bones begin to curve. Also a head tilt and head "bob" result from being fed KMR. I know this because I did it to 2 sweet little babies many years ago when I first started rehabbing. They were not able to tolerate the Esbilac so I tried the KMR to save them. They tolerated the KMR better as far as to digest it.... but all the other problems began to become apparent. I would not suggest KMR.

Marty
Got to go feed. I will check back in as I can. Good luck with these babies.

[MiriamS]

I think some more experienced members will be stopping in to give you some advice and possibly to help get you Fox Valley tomorrow. I suspect they would all advise NOT feeding KMR. Better the squirrel miss a feeding than get something that can make it sicker. Did you order the Fox Valley to be express shipped? These are what I think are the best options in order of preference:

1. get goat's milk formula tonight
2. get Pedialyte (sold at any drug store) tonight
3. get Fox Valley tomorrow from another member (fingers crossed)
4. goat's milk formula tomorrow

My instinct is that if you can't get to a drug store tonight it's better to skip a feeding until you can get the goat's milk tomorrow. But keep checking for another member to weigh in.

[flsquirrel]

I just wanted to let you know that the KMR is not a good idea. It causes long bone malformation. The long bones begin to curve. Also a head tilt and head "bob" result from being fed KMR. I know this because I did it to 2 sweet little babies many years ago when I first started rehabbing. They were not able to tolerate the Esbilac so I tried the KMR to save them. They tolerated the KMR better as far as to digest it.... but all the other problems began to become apparent. I would not suggest KMR.

Marty
Got to go feed. I will check back in as I can. Good luck with these babies.

Thanks Marty, I will keep it on the Esbilac until Fox Valley.

[MiriamS]

Hmmm, having just read UDoWhat's post, now I wonder if I was wrong and the KMR would be acceptable for just a night. :thinking Let's wait to hear from a few more members and hopefully someone in Tampa.

Can a rehabber please weigh in with specific instructions for Jon as to what he should do TONIGHT and tomorrow until his Fox Valley arrives? His baby has Esbilac diarrhea so should he dilute the Esbilac? Add infant Kaeopectate?

[flsquirrel]

I think some more experienced members will be stopping in to give you some advice and possibly to help get you Fox Valley tomorrow. I suspect they would all advise NOT feeding KMR. Better the squirrel miss a feeding than get something that can make it sicker. Did you order the Fox Valley to be express shipped? These are what I think are the best options in order of preference:

1. get goat's milk formula tonight
2. get Pedialyte (sold at any drug store) tonight
3. get Fox Valley tomorrow from another member (fingers crossed)
4. goat's milk formula tomorrow

My instinct is that if you can't get to a drug store tonight it's better to skip a feeding until you can get the goat's milk tomorrow. But keep checking for another member to weigh in.

So straight pedialite as a feeding?

[jo_schmoe]

The now even more runny poohs are probably from a sudden switch from one formula to the next.
I would suggest getting your hands on some pedialite and hydrating the baby. It also will help flush out the formula.
If you can get the goats milk, cream and yogurt...do so!
If not...let us know.

[flsquirrel]

The now even more runny poohs are probably from a sudden switch from one formula to the next.
I would suggest getting your hands on some pedialite and hydrating the baby. It also will help flush out the formula.
If you can get the goats milk, cream and yogurt...do so!
If not...let us know.

The runny poo was before the KMR when I went to pick up the squirrel at my friends place....prior to hat I asked him what was the poo like and he said like a peanut butter consistency....my guess would be thought that on a fluid diet you dont poo solid pellets.

For tonight I will feed it the Esbilac one last time, its been on it for over a month now and its still kickin, but tomorrow I'll pick up the pedialyte, as for he goats milk I dont even know where to begin to find that.

[UDoWhat]

Hi I am sorry for the alarm. Did not read the full post carefully. I would say that KMR for 1or 3 feedings is ok. Just not long term. My babies were on KMR for 3 weeks when I noticed they were always curling up, their legs looked "bent" and their heads were bobbing. Sorry for the hurried response.

Marty

[MiriamS]

Okay, if you can't get to a 24hr store tonight then one more Esbilac puppy feeding won't be the end of the world.

On a Fox Valley fluid diet, poops are solid! Your poor little baby has had diarrhea for a month now. You'd be surprised at where you might be able to get goat's milk. Do you live near a Whole Foods or small "natural food store?" Even one of those gigantic suburban supermarkets like Publix might carry it. Or maybe Trader Joe's. Just start making phone calls in the morning. But you can definitely find Pedialyte nearby.

Poor Marty's got like, 30 hurricane babies she's feeding. :poke She's typing in her sleep. :sleep1

[Nancy in New York]

Where is Spring Hill Florida? Let's see if we have some members from near that area that can help with some Fox Valley for tomorrow. I am sending out some, but it will not go until Tuesday, from New York.:shakehead

[mpetys]

Where is Spring Hill Florida? Let's see if we have some members from near that area that can help with some Fox Valley for tomorrow. I am sending out some, but it will not go until Tuesday, from New York.:shakehead

Nancy, Domino Effect Rescue is in Weeki Wachi which is fairly close to Spring Hill.

[flsquirrel]

Okay, if you can't get to a 24hr store tonight then one more Esbilac puppy feeding won't be the end of the world.

On a Fox Valley fluid diet, poops are solid! Your poor little baby has had diarrhea for a month now. You'd be surprised at where you might be able to get goat's milk. Do you live near a Whole Foods or small "natural food store?" Even one of those gigantic suburban supermarkets like Publix might carry it. Or maybe Trader Joe's. Just start making phone calls in the morning. But you can definitely find Pedialyte nearby.

Poor Marty's got like, 30 hurricane babies she's feeding. :poke She's typing in her sleep. :sleep1

I have a few health food stores i will be calling tomorrow, hopefully they are open on Sunday, if not i'll have to go out to the country and find a goat =), just kidding.

Wow so a baby on FV poo's solid, like pellets? wow, so poor little guy has had diarrhea all this time, goodness, i hope he doesnt get roids (just kidding)....well maybe its best for him that I just picked him up, because he was going to be at my friends until the 10/1 when I was planning on picking him up, good thing im impatient.

[mpetys]

which product specifically would I need for a squirrel 6-8 wks from Fox Valley?

With all due respect seeing as I am not experienced, this information about "not" using these other products makes me leary, I know of soooo many people who have used Esbilac and PetAg Kitten Milk Replacer successfully and until I got to this board hadnt heard "not" to use the other products.

I hope this is not to promote Fox Valley, again, dont take this in any wrong way, but when everyone else has been using the other products successfully, I thought to do what others have done to make sure these babies are well nutritioned, and live.

Hey neighbor. I am in Tampa. I found my first squirrels in February of 2010. A friend who had previously found and raised a squirrel sent me some information which included using the Ebsilac puppy formula. I had four baby boys. They went downhill quickly. When the first one died, I was frantic. Had I done something wrong? What about the remaining three? So I got on the internet and the first thing I did was find a rehabber that I had read an article about years ago. I found the article and her website. She advised me not to use the Ebsilac as they had lost quite a few babies that were on it and that all over the country babies were dying. Something about they changed the formula. They made it better for puppies but it was killing wildlife. The rehabber told me that she was using Fox Valley and that it was the only thing she would recommend. Gave me the website so I could order some. I called them up and ordered some to be sent to me via overnight mail. The next morning two more of my babies died. I had one baby left and he was going downhill fast. Just before noon my package arrived. I had been only giving the remaining baby pedialyte to get him hydrated. I started him out on the Fox valley in a diluted amount. Slowly but surely, he started gaining ground. I had the faintest hope that he just might make it.

During this time, I got back on the computer and found this website. I talked to many other people and found they recommended the same thing. There are some that will still use Ebsilac but have to go through specific set of instructions to make it work. My feeling is that why would I want to use a product that is not made for baby squirrels and that the manufacturer even denied was intended for wildlife and from what I understand, when they got complaints about babies dying, they did nothing.

Fox Valley has formula for a variety of wildlife. I am not associated with Fox Valley other than being a satisfied customer. The owner is very responsive. He is willing to take the time to talk to you on the phone and answer any questions you may have.

I haven't compared pricing but I do believe that the Fox Valley comes out cheaper than the Ebsilac. I remember I paid something like $24 for the can of Ebsilac I bought last year and the Fox Valley is $10.95 per pound.

By the way, my friend who gave me the information on what to feed a squirrel, would still be recommending Ebsilac had I not found out all the changes that had been made since she first used it.

I'll get off my soapbox now! :D I hope you take the advice of the many rehabbers on this board. Good luck with your baby.

[mpetys]

Okay, if you can't get to a 24hr store tonight then one more Esbilac puppy feeding won't be the end of the world.

On a Fox Valley fluid diet, poops are solid! Your poor little baby has had diarrhea for a month now. You'd be surprised at where you might be able to get goat's milk. Do you live near a Whole Foods or small "natural food store?" Even one of those gigantic suburban supermarkets like Publix might carry it. Or maybe Trader Joe's. Just start making phone calls in the morning. But you can definitely find Pedialyte nearby.

Poor Marty's got like, 30 hurricane babies she's feeding. :poke She's typing in her sleep. :sleep1

Publix carries Goats Milk. Bought it there several times. Just my personal preference but I have found that the apple flavore pedialyte is accepted the most.

[MiriamS]

if not i'll have to go out to the country and find a goat =), just kidding.
Stranger things have happened on TSB. I actually think someone in upstate NY ended up finding a goat the other day to save some hurricane orphans because all roads out had been flooded!

I think you have a good plan. Thank you for taking the baby from your vacationing friend earlier rather than later. Your squirrel will benefit sooner and quickly. :thumbsup

[MiriamS]

Publix carries Goats Milk. Bought it there several times.
:wahoo Go ME for remembering my grandmother's supermarket.

[flsquirrel]

Nancy, Domino Effect Rescue is in Weeki Wachi which is fairly close to Spring Hill.


Weeki Wachee is righ in Spring Hill, I technically live you could say in either, I might have to look them up in the morning and see if they might have any FV.

Wow, I read your other post below, what a shame.

Well I am glad I decided to jump on the board tonight, I feel so bad for this little guy, apparently with the diarrhea since my friend has had him is NOT good.

1st thing in the morning I will be getting the goat milk if i can find a local health food tore thats open on Sunday and getting this lilttle guy the right food right away.

[flsquirrel]

On another note I have to say thank you to all of you for chiming in and helping out, I am most appreciative, and my new friend and hopefully family member will thank you later as well.

You guys are all awesome!

Will keep you posted tomorrow as soon as I get the goats milk.

Here are some pics of my little guy: https://picasaweb.google.com/100487976295545360363/BabySquirrel

I'm going to give him a quick feeding of the Esbilac for the night, and im going to hit the hay....talk to you all tomorrow :thankyou

[Nancy in New York]

Wow so a baby on FV poo's solid, like pellets?

Look over on the right hand side on the tan fleece....those are Fox Valley poo's...:hidechair
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/Magentas%20Babies%20and%20Jeffrey/IMG_5094.jpg

[mpetys]

This can be discussed more at a later time, but please read as much as you can about keeping squirrels as pets. As a rule, it is not a good idea. I say this as someone who kept a squirrel as a pet. Remember the little guy I spoke about earlier who was the only one that survived after Ebsilac? Well, he was my first squirrel and I found that I just couldn't let him go when he got old enough. He is now 19 months old. I love him like crazy BUT he has, on several occasions, bitten both my husband and I horribly. It is hard to imagine a one pound squirrel can cause so much damage with so much blood. At some point, he decided that he no longer liked my husband. Then he went through a phase when he would bite me every chance he got. I do believe that these episodes he has now coincide with mating season.

I regret to this day that I kept this perfectly healthy squirrel from being able to live a life outdoors. He is happy now, but if I ever felt that he was miserable, I would do a soft release with him and give him that opportunity to be free. He has been exposed to my dogs and cats and has no fear of any of them. Quite the opposite, they fear him.

So, for you to keep him as a pet, I guess my concern would be would you be willing to release him in a proper way should it become apparent that he needs to be a wild squirrel. The next concern is who is in your household that will be exposed to him. Generally, they pick one person to bond with and that is it. There are squirrels that are the exception to this rule you can read about many of them here on this board. The next thing would be what other animals are in your household. They should never be out with dogs or cats. Even if they seem to get along, all it would take is for the dog or cat to upset the squirrel to have the squirrel start teeth chattering and attack. A dog or cat being attacked by a squirrel could easily kill the squirrel.

What has helped me was to read as much as possible and to read about different members experiences. Ask lots of questions. There are no dumb questions.

Good luck!

[MiriamS]

Ha ha, Nancy, I'll see you one and raise you....thirteen I believe.

147977


Jon, apologies but it's been a long week for everyone and we get a little punchy late at night. :Drink

Your little guy...in the photos...OMG that squirrel is beyond precious. Such adorableness belongs only here on TSB, where you have suddenly found yourself sunk into the most wonderful community of people.

You know you're gonna have to name him. :poke

[Mrs Skul]

HI flsquirrel :wave123
I thought I would post the Goat Milk Recipe!

One of our senior members who posts as Jackie in Tampa uses an excellent temporary substitute, and it can be assembled from locally purchased ingredients:

3 parts goat’s milk
1 part heavy whipping cream*
1 part vanilla yogurt

Formula will last 48 hours in refrigerator.

Goat’s Milk
This can be purchased at natural food stores such as Trader Joe’s and Whole Foods, and at most health food stores that sell groceries. It is a product for humans. Do not substitute commercial formula made for baby goats or other livestock sold at feed stores.

Goat’s milk is available fresh in a carton; evaporated in a can; and as a powdered milk. If you purchase either the evaporated or powdered versions, please blend them with water according to the package directions before using to make the formula.

Heavy Whipping Cream
This is found in small cartons in the grocery store near the coffee creamers and half and half. Regular heavy cream may be substituted if it is unavailable, but the heavy whipping cream has the highest fat content, and is preferred.

Yogurt
Yogurt has beneficial bacteria in it that soothes and settles digestion. Full fat yogurt is best, and a good choice that is very widely available is Stoneyfield Yobaby yogurt. However if it is unavailable, a low fat vanilla yogurt may be substituted. Avoid those that have artificial sweeteners in them. Vanilla and banana are both popular flavors, and the sweet taste of the yogurt helps to convince the baby to accept it.

It has been recently discovered that very small pinky squirrels may do better digestively if, instead of being given Fox Valley formula straight, mix the Fox Valley 50/50 with the Goat’s Milk Formula assembled WITHOUT the heavy whipping cream.

*It is recommended that when just starting to feed a new baby that the first feedings be made without the heavy whipping cream. This will give their digestive systems a chance to acclimate from mama’s milk to our substitute without the harder-to-digest whipping cream. Once they accept the formula and are eliminating properly, the whipping cream can be gradually added in.

When your Fox Valley formula arrives, please transition your babies to the new formula slowly, by blending the Goat’s Milk Formula with the blended and liquefied Fox Valley formula, increasing the ratio of Fox Valley with each feeding until you are no longer using the goat’s milk.
__________________
Island Rehabber
NY State Licensed
Wildlife Rehabilitator

[flsquirrel]

Ha ha, Nancy, I'll see you one and raise you....thirteen I believe.

147977


Jon, apologies but it's been a long week for everyone and we get a little punchy late at night. :Drink

Your little guy...in the photos...OMG that squirrel is beyond precious. Such adorableness belongs only here on TSB, where you have suddenly found yourself sunk into the most wonderful community of people.

You know you're gonna have to name him. :poke

Good morning folks,
I just got up, ready to o find some goats milk, I did get a pm from a fellow in Tampa, I sent him my #, says he has FV he an hook me up with.

As for the name, my friend had named it "Master Splinter" or Splinter, which I am not fond of, its the name of the ninja rat in the cartoon Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, this aint no rat.....I was thinking of Chip (disneys Chip n Dale), but we decided on Hammy from Over the Hedge.

[jo_schmoe]

Good morning folks,
I just got up, ready to o find some goats milk, I did get a pm from a fellow in Tampa, I sent him my #, says he has FV he an hook me up with.

As for the name, my friend had named it "Master Splinter" or Splinter, which I am not fond of, its the name of the ninja rat in the cartoon Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, this aint no rat.....I was thinking of Chip (disneys Chip n Dale), but we decided on Hammy from Over the Hedge.
I was going to say...if you have a walmart and cant find fresh goats milk.....they do carry it in a can. You just need to add equal parts of water to it to get it back to the right strength. Dont forget the heavy cream and yogurt.
Now...when you do get the GM dont just give it to the squirrel. You will need to slowly introduce it. Start out with 3/4 puppy formula....1/4 GM. If all goes well....next feeding can be 1/2 and 1/2...gradually stepping up to full GM.
I had mentioned yesterday that switching formulas all in one feeding will cause stomach issues.....such as watery stools and trust me it will.
Hope all is well....and you can get the GM soon. When your FV arrives....you will need to do the same transition.

[pappy1264]

In the interim, you can feed the gm's recipe, it is easily digestible, if you cannot get some from anyone close.

Market Basket carries fresh, Whole Foods carries the powdered gm.

[MiriamS]

Good morning folks,
I just got up, ready to o find some goats milk, I did get a pm from a fellow in Tampa, I sent him my #, says he has FV he an hook me up with.
Fantastic. Let us know how it goes with your search for GM and FV.

Hammy is a fabulous name. :rotfl

[mpetys]

Good morning folks,
I just got up, ready to o find some goats milk, I did get a pm from a fellow in Tampa, I sent him my #, says he has FV he an hook me up with.

As for the name, my friend had named it "Master Splinter" or Splinter, which I am not fond of, its the name of the ninja rat in the cartoon Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, this aint no rat.....I was thinking of Chip (disneys Chip n Dale), but we decided on Hammy from Over the Hedge.


Let us know if you are able to connect with the other Tampa member. If something falls through and you need some FV to tide you over, I can give you some. I am on Hwy 301, two miles north of Interstate 4. I am just north of Brandon and south of Zephyrhills. My day is pretty tight as I have 12 babies I am feeding so I can't meet you halfway or anything.

[flsquirrel]

Let us know if you are able to connect with the other Tampa member. If something falls through and you need some FV to tide you over, I can give you some. I am on Hwy 301, two miles north of Interstate 4. I am just north of Brandon and south of Zephyrhills. My day is pretty tight as I have 12 babies I am feeding so I can't meet you halfway or anything.

Michelle,
Yes I was able to meet up with Emmdano he was a great help, hooked me up with 1/2lb of FV 20/50, a syringe which by the way Nancy you were right, the syringe is the way to go, he also hooked me up with some biscuits.

"Hammy" as my son and I have now named him, had about 7-8cc's of FV.

Thanks Emmdano, I owe you!

[jo_schmoe]

Whoohooo!!!
Great news!:jump

[flsquirrel]

So I have been hearing both that a squirrel may or may not go wild on me, or during season it may become agressive.


1) "Hammy" is a boy, for those of you whos squirrels have gone wild on you, at about what age did this happen?

2) For males, when is the mating season, and at what age will this begin?

3) Have any of you been lucky to end up with a non aggressive/biting squirrel who has ended up as your pet?

I know that there is that possibility, more son than not, I just want to know when to possibly expect this....although of course I hope to get lucky and end up with a pet quality, non aggressive/biting squirrel.

Thanks again folks =)

[4skwerlz]

So I have been hearing both that a squirrel may or may not go wild on me, or during season it may become agressive.


1) "Hammy" is a boy, for those of you whos squirrels have gone wild on you, at about what age did this happen?

2) For males, when is the mating season, and at what age will this begin?

3) Have any of you been lucky to end up with a non aggressive/biting squirrel who has ended up as your pet?

I know that there is that possibility, more son than not, I just want to know when to possibly expect this....although of course I hope to get lucky and end up with a pet quality, non aggressive/biting squirrel.

Thanks again folks =)

Hi there. I have a 4-year-old noneleasable squirrel named Henry so I have a little experience with that. I've also watched this situation play out on TSB maybe more than a hundred times over the years. There are people that are strictly anti-pet squirrel, vehemently so. I'm agnostic on the issue, but you should know the realities.

First, will your squirrel be "pet material"? That means totally bonded with humans, loving and docile in temperament, content to live indoors, and showing no desire to be free. I'd say maybe 10% at the very most are like this. I think the odds are best with the boys; they seem a bit more laid back. There are exceptions of course. So the chances are good your loving baby squirrel will turn into a wild animal at some point during the first 6 months of life.

Also, sometimes they seem like perfect pets at first, and then wild up suddenly. This can happen at any time in the first 2-3 years of life. You'll find a lot of threads on TSB along the lines of "Help! Snoopy Suddenly Attacked Me...Viciously Biting." Check out Rama's thread for a taste of what can happen.

Assuming your squirrel is the rare "perfect pet squirrel," you should also know what's involved with caring for one. Don't even think of a squirrel as a pet. It is really more like having a small furry child that never grows up. Like a human toddler, they will demand your attention most of the time that you're home. And someone needs to be home for most of the day. He will need to have free roam of your house for at least several hours a day. During that time everything in the room will be knocked over, climbed, peed on, broken, chewed on.... really, the destruction beggars description. Everyone in the family will be covered with scratches pretty much from head to foot; the scars are permanent. There are a lot of threads about all this too.

Squirrels are the most amazing animals I know. Smarter than dogs, with a huge capacity to love humans. Their antics and personalities will make you smile every day. It will love you with a passion and attachment beyond what I've seen in any other animal species. And you will love it in return pretty much like you love your human children. But your life will never be the same. You can't travel; who's going to watch the squirrel while you take a 2-week vacation? Your life will, it must, revolve around the squirrel. And they live up to 15 years. And this is with a "perfect pet squirrel"; most are less than perfect, i.e, eventually decide they only like one member of the family and will bite the snot out of anyone else. This is extremely common.

Sorry for the long screed. Long story short, I do think a squirrel can be happy in captivity if the people are willing to make the huge sacrifices necessary. Just my opinion.

I don't mean to talk you into or out of anything; just sharing some of the realities. Feel free to call me anytime if you want to discuss this further: 321-626-1897.

Leigh

[MiriamS]

Wow Leigh I think you gave a great summary. :thumbsup

[flsquirrel]

UPDATE:

"Hammy" is doing great, I forgot what ratio to mix the FV, so I am doing 1part FV, 2 parts water, 1 part heavy whipping cream, 1 part nonfat plain yogurt.

He has already started pooing pellets, a few at a time, really tiny, peanut butter in color, and somewhat hard, not sure if this is how it should be, but it beats diarrhea.

He has started eating a biscuit/block, and is also horseplaying....I put a old kids hooded towel from when my son was a baby on my desk while i work, and he gets in it, when I put my hand in there he starts playing with my hand, grabs my finger and rolls around, gets on his back wrestling with my finger making this little purr/growl sound, really cute and fun.

[Nancy in New York]

Well we need more photos of that little one!
I will include some HHB's (Henry's blocks) for your little one too.
So glad that he is doing well on the Fox Valley....:thumbsup

[4skwerlz]

I see Hammy's still with you and doing well. :) That's so cute; they do love to "wrastle" with your hand, and they make the cutest little noises, don't they? Don't say I didn't warn you how irresistible squirrel-love is.:D How are you doing on the trust and worry about biting?

[flsquirrel]

I see Hammy's still with you and doing well. :) That's so cute; they do love to "wrastle" with your hand, and they make the cutest little noises, don't they? Don't say I didn't warn you how irresistible squirrel-love is.:D How are you doing on the trust and worry about biting?

Hi Leigh,
Well, Im still not sure if to prep him for release, or keep as a pet.

I think I will just continue to do what I am doing of caring for him, and who knows, maybe several months go by, a year, or 10 :D

But yes, my 2 worries right now are the scratches, if I can find a way to enjoy him and not get all scratched up, then that will make me keep him for now and possibly until the day comes that he decides to become aggressive.

If there is anything that can be done with regard to the nails then that will be helpful in my keeping him, but if not, and just everyday play is going to amount to scratches then unfortunately I can't, as cute and loveable as they are I just cant put myself through the daily serving of scratches....as a pet he would not be kept caged all the time, he would roam freely for hours daily....and I also dont want my son to end up scratched all over on the days he's with me.

If something can be done with the nails, then that would inline me to keep him, but the fact alone that at some random moment in his life there is that possibility for him to decide to either go wild, or during mating season become aggressive, I understand, but I dont want to be the recipient of the bite I hear hey are capable of, much less my son....I have gone through this with parrots, but parrots once hand fed and tamed never ever will they bite their human.

Honestly, it may end up that Hammy may have to be prepped for release, which sucks because I really enjoy him, and its only been 3-4 days.

[SammysMom]

Oh no, it doesn't suck if you are prepping him for release! You are doing such a great job making sure to give him a good and healthy life!:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

[Nancy in New York]

Hi Leigh,

But yes, my 2 worries right now are the scratches, if I can find a way to enjoy him and not get all scratched up, then that will make me keep him for now and possibly until the day comes that he decides to become aggressive.




Here you go. This is one of our members and how she had to dress while going in to feed her 3 overwintered squirrels that she raised as babies....:rotfl

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/August%202011/105349.jpg

[flsquirrel]

Here you go. This is one of our members and how she had to dress while going in to feed her 3 overwintered squirrels that she raised as babies....:rotfl

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/August%202011/105349.jpg

WHOA, break out the Storm Trooper costume :crazy

Yeah, thats a bit more than I am willing to do, I much rather put hammy in the hands of someone experienced before I go to those lenghts.

I dont mind caring for him, but that would be too much.

I do have a couple of locals who have rescued and prepped squirrels for release before, of course I dont know the specifics of how they have done it, if proper or improper, but I might find out as hey said they would welcome taking on Hammy.

I will just continue to take it one day at a time, but I will come to a decision sooner than later as I dont want either of us, Hammy or I to continue to bond if I am not going to be the one, I know it will hurt him, and it already hurts me to look at him and know I may have to pass.

But I will make sure that whoever does take him knows what they are doing, I pretty much paid $100+ to rescue him, I'd hate to see him go to he wrong hands and die.

[Nancy in New York]

WHOA, break out the Storm Trooper costume :crazy

Yeah, thats a bit more than I am willing to do, I much rather put hammy in the hands of someone experienced before I go to those lenghts.

I dont mind caring for him, but that would be too much.

I do have a couple of locals who have rescued and prepped squirrels for release before, of course I dont know the specifics of how they have done it, if proper or improper, but I might find out as hey said they would welcome taking on Hammy.

I will just continue to take it one day at a time, but I will come to a decision sooner than later as I dont want either of us, Hammy or I to continue to bond if I am not going to be the one, I know it will hurt him, and it already hurts me to look at him and know I may have to pass.

But I will make sure that whoever does take him knows what they are doing, I pretty much paid $100+ to rescue him, I'd hate to see him go to he wrong hands and die.


Oh, I'm sure that we have plenty of exceptional Florida members that will take Hammy for release. OR you could release in your own yard if you have the set up for it....we will help you out regardless.:thumbsup

[MiriamS]

I think you're doing great and thinking about it in exactly the right manner. If you have an appropriate natural surrounding outside your home, he can become a friendly wild squirrel. It's quite rewarding knowing that you helped save a little life and then be able to see it come visit you for treats and perhaps even affection. It's fine to just wait and see.

[Sidewinder]

My little Oscar is about 5 weeks old, and I have been feeding him Esbilac Puppy formula (with yogurt and whipping cream) since the first week when I found out I shouldn't be using the kitten formula. He opened his eyes yesterday and today he weighs 145 grams. He's never had diarrea and he eats really well. Should I change him now to Fox Valley? Thanks!

[4skwerlz]

My little Oscar is about 5 weeks old, and I have been feeding him Esbilac Puppy formula (with yogurt and whipping cream) since the first week when I found out I shouldn't be using the kitten formula. He opened his eyes yesterday and today he weighs 145 grams. He's never had diarrea and he eats really well. Should I change him now to Fox Valley? Thanks!

Yes. They do so much better on Fox Valley, and it's cheaper too. You'll need the 20/50 formula, for babies 5 weeks and older.

[Sidewinder]

I am on Henry's web site now getting ready to order. I have been using 5 cc syringes to feed him. Should I change to a larger syringe with a nipple now?

[Nancy in New York]

I am on Henry's web site now getting ready to order. I have been using 5 cc syringes to feed him. Should I change to a larger syringe with a nipple now?

No don't change to anything larger, that would be a turkey baster....:rotfl :rotfl
Personally, the largest I ever use anymore is the 3 cc syringe....and always the silicone mothering nipple.
Keep him safe and order a couple of 3 cc syringes. The older he gets the more powerful he will suck, the 5 is really too large.

[flsquirrel]

UPDATE:
Hammy is doing great, getting big, but he is doing some weird stuff, I wonder if he's bipolar...all by himself he gets in his "defensive pose" and starts doing the growling, really funny, and sometimes he does like he is striking at something with his paw while he growls, and he growl is sooo funny.

Is this normal behavior just to randomly be doing that out of the blue and at nothing, because he literally suddenly strikes a defensive pose, and he is doing it ALOT now, he reacts to any little sound wether the sound of my office chair squeak, etc he is acting very "alert and on the ready".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also I thought for a minute he might be blind because for the past week I noticed he would not react to my hand or syringe as if it wasnt really there, I would move my hand around his face and he wasnt "stiff", it almost appeared to me as if he was mostly responding to scent vs sight, not to mention I let him lose once and he ran right into a all as if he didnt even know the wall was there as he ran in that direction, but yesterday when he did the growl and and funny aggressive pose I noticed he did in fact see my hand, he followed it not with his head but his eyes, so I am glad to know at least that he is not blind, but I wonder why he doesnt even move when he sees my hand coming to grab him as if he didnt even see me...oh well, as long as he's not blind thats what really matters, but i'd be interested to know if you guys have seen this before.

[flsquirrel]

bump.

[jo_schmoe]

UPDATE:
Hammy is doing great, getting big, but he is doing some weird stuff, I wonder if he's bipolar...all by himself he gets in his "defensive pose" and starts doing the growling, really funny, and sometimes he does like he is striking at something with his paw while he growls, and he growl is sooo funny.

Is this normal behavior just to randomly be doing that out of the blue and at nothing, because he literally suddenly strikes a defensive pose, and he is doing it ALOT now, he reacts to any little sound wether the sound of my office chair squeak, etc he is acting very "alert and on the ready".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also I thought for a minute he might be blind because for the past week I noticed he would not react to my hand or syringe as if it wasnt really there, I would move my hand around his face and he wasnt "stiff", it almost appeared to me as if he was mostly responding to scent vs sight, not to mention I let him lose once and he ran right into a all as if he didnt even know the wall was there as he ran in that direction, but yesterday when he did the growl and and funny aggressive pose I noticed he did in fact see my hand, he followed it not with his head but his eyes, so I am glad to know at least that he is not blind, but I wonder why he doesnt even move when he sees my hand coming to grab him as if he didnt even see me...oh well, as long as he's not blind thats what really matters, but i'd be interested to know if you guys have seen this before.
Sounds like he put on his big boy pants!! LOL

[4skwerlz]

Grrr-ing and swatting are normal squirrel aggressive behavior. They will often react defensively to noises we can't hear. Sounds like Hammy is wilding up nicely. Squirrels with this type of personality usually do very very well in the wild, as opposed to a baby with a more timid personality.

Squirrels don't see very well right up close to their face. Their eyes are placed high up and wide apart on their heads so they can scan the skies for hawks, so they don't focus well on objects close to their nose.

I hope Hammy doesn't have a vision problem. Could just be baby clumsiness, but I'd be concerned if he's still bumping into walls a couple weeks from now.

[flsquirrel]

Grrr-ing and swatting are normal squirrel aggressive behavior. They will often react defensively to noises we can't hear. Sounds like Hammy is wilding up nicely. Squirrels with this type of personality usually do very very well in the wild, as opposed to a baby with a more timid personality.

Squirrels don't see very well right up close to their face. Their eyes are placed high up and wide apart on their heads so they can scan the skies for hawks, so they don't focus well on objects close to their nose.

I hope Hammy doesn't have a vision problem. Could just be baby clumsiness, but I'd be concerned if he's still bumping into walls a couple weeks from now.

Funny thing is the growling was only yesterday, today he hasnt done it at all.

I do however need to find a new home for him, and fast, he needs more room that I can't provide him with, I wont just let him roam freely while he pee's/pop's everywhere....only problem is I am not in a position to just lose the $150+ I have put into him, dont know what to do, but he does need to go fast as muh as I hate to.

[Nancy in New York]

Funny thing is the growling was only yesterday, today he hasnt done it at all.

I do however need to find a new home for him, and fast, he needs more room that I can't provide him with, I wont just let him roam freely while he pee's/pop's everywhere....only problem is I am not in a position to just lose the $150+ I have put into him, dont know what to do, but he does need to go fast as muh as I hate to.


Sorry got away from the thread for a while. I thought that you had somebody that was willing to reimburse you for him? Didn't she want a pet? :shakehead :shakehead

Perhaps you should cut your losses and hand him over to a rehabber. The longer you keep him, the more it will cost you.

Remember whomever you give him to, will also be spending a lot of money on him keeping until release.

You got the squirrel thinking it would make a good pet, right? Now, because you found out differently....how can it be that you are not in a position to lose $150.? Either you could afford it since you bought the squirrel, and now you can't....I don't get this? The money you spent is already gone? Am I missing something?

[4skwerlz]

Funny thing is the growling was only yesterday, today he hasnt done it at all.

I do however need to find a new home for him, and fast, he needs more room that I can't provide him with, I wont just let him roam freely while he pee's/pop's everywhere....only problem is I am not in a position to just lose the $150+ I have put into him, dont know what to do, but he does need to go fast as muh as I hate to.

It's illegal to "take money for a squirrel," which in the eyes of Florida Wildlife, is selling wildlife. Of course we realize you don't mean it quite that way. You care about Hammy and want the best for him. And you'd like to recoup some of your expenses. That's understandable. But the law does not see it that way.

Florida Wildlife patrols this site. In fact, we have at least two active members of TSB who are Florida Wildlife officers! They also patrol Craigslist, etc., because this is an issue they take very seriously. I think the fine is $10,000.

I know there are rehabbers here willing to take Hammy and finish raising him for release. But if they give you money for him they risk losing their license, or worse. And you risk a very hefty fine. So does the person you got Hammy from. And Hammy would be confiscated and possibly euthanized.

Usually if the person does the right thing and hands the squirrel over to a rehabber, Florida Wildlife considers it "case closed."

[flsquirrel]

Well, I'm not concerned about the "ongoing" expense as I dont see how it can be that much to feed a squirrel, it's the expense to make an enclosure large enough for him, and I was going to do that if I was going to keep him as a pet, but after gathering all the information thus far I agree they are not pets.

The $150+ I really wasnt ready to spend when I got hammy, I got him unexpectedly, I wasnt suppose to get him until 10/1, I am a single dad, and every dollar counts, and getting hammy before 10/1 wasnt the right decision on my part, but nonetheless he has been better in my hands vs my friends.

Well, I guess since a re-homing fee is out of the question, I understand it's not going to happen here or on craigs so I will hang onto him until I find a local or friend-of-a-friend who will not have an issue reimbursing me, and I know how to use good judgement on selecting he right person who will care for him properly so Hammy wont go to just any home....hey times are tough, and just because I got him too soon when I wasnt financially prepared means that I am just going to take a loss.

Hopefully this wont generate any negative comments, because I had/have good intentions, I'm just not going to lose my $.

Well guys, thanks for all the information and help that was provided, but this is where I part ways.

Moderator you can close my account, and close/lock this thread.

Thanks

[Nancy in New York]

Well, I'm not concerned about the "ongoing" expense as I dont see how it can be that much to feed a squirrel, it's the expense to make an enclosure large enough for him, and I was going to do that if I was going to keep him as a pet, but after gathering all the information thus far I agree they are not pets.

The $150+ I really wasnt ready to spend when I got hammy, I got him unexpectedly, I wasnt suppose to get him until 10/1, I am a single dad, and every dollar counts, and getting hammy before 10/1 wasnt the right decision on my part, but nonetheless he has been better in my hands vs my friends.

Well, I guess since a re-homing fee is out of the question, I understand it's not going to happen here or on craigs so I will hang onto him until I find a local or friend-of-a-friend who will not have an issue reimbursing me, and I know how to use good judgement on selecting he right person who will care for him properly so Hammy wont go to just any home....hey times are tough, and just because I got him too soon when I wasnt financially prepared means that I am just going to take a loss.

Hopefully this wont generate any negative comments, because I had/have good intentions, I'm just not going to lose my $.

Well guys, thanks for all the information and help that was provided, but this is where I part ways.

Moderator you can close my account, and close/lock this thread.

Thanks

I know your intentions were good....:grouphug :grouphug
Sorry if I sounded snarky....you should see what my hubby has to put up with....:shakehead :rotfl
:grouphug
Just a lot of sad things going on with little fuzzers that have nothing to do with you....but you got the brunt....sorry.

[island rehabber]

I will be snarky, though. I am the Admin/Owner so the buck stops here....

Nearly every wildlife rehabilitator in this country is a VOLUNTEER. We are snooped on and regulated by our state agencies, but we don't receive a thin dime. Most of us never even get donations from people who bring us animals all hours of the day and night, including holidays and days we'd rather have spent with our families somewhere. We do this out of our own pockets and never expect a cent (I've received zero donations this year, but that's fine. I don't do this for the revenue :D.)
What I'm saying is, when a member of the general public decides to play rehabber, they can't expect a REHABBER to make up for the money spent on the animal. That squirrel is going to cost money to feed, house and release -- and God Forbid if it needs a vet. If you don't want to lose money, be like most of the American public and turn the other way when you next see an animal in need -- "let nature take its course"....:shakehead

With that I will close this thread. :peace