just started acting lethargic?????

[pitonia]

Hi, new to the board. I rescued two male grey babies approx 5 wks old at the time. Now 17 wks old. Full intention to release, but unfortunatly one is shall we say a little slow. I think he was dehydrated a bit to long before I got them. Anyway. They have grown great, been fully active till late last night. Since I have decided not to release they go out daily on the pool deck/enclosed. I put some trees in planters and they can play all day. At dusk they hop in their cage and come in the house at night.
Last night the one started squicking a bit while he was sleeping.
Then this morning The one was up waiting to go out as usual.
The other one was hunced over with tail over back sort of puffed up.
I gave him some sugar water and he seemd to perk for a minute.
He did urniate and I do not see any abnormal poo in cage.
I have given him several drinks which he is doing on his own of the sugar water, but is is still balled up with tail over back. He has taken short spurts of running and haning on cage, mainly to get away from me, but then he goes back to position.
Any ideas out there?
They eat fresh fruits, veggies, rodent chow, and get peanuts as treats, a small bit of seed mix, sunflower, flax... nothing has changed since they were weaned.
I am trying to find a local vet that does these guys, but in the mean time any help will do.
Thanks Becky

[CritterMom]

The diet and age makes me suspect metabolic bone disease. What "rodent chow" do they eat?

There is a calcium to phosphorus balance that you need to try to keep at 2:1 with these guys and the foods you describe are very high in phosphorus and very low in calcium. They likely have weaned and are no longer getting calcum from their formula.

Please try this as an emergency treatment: Tums is an easily available source of calcium. Get a Tums and get 500 mg of calcium into your squirrel through the day. Break it and offer it - he may just eat it as is, if not, dissolve into some water and syringe it into him - doesn't matter how, just get some calcium on board. I would also put him in a smaller carrier and put it on partial heat from a heating pad - the body leaches calcium from the bones since the diet lacks sufficient amounts and it causes the bones to ache.

It will take a while to fix if this is the issue, both squirrels will need to be treated, and the diet will need to be worked on. It is fixable...

[pitonia]

Thanks. That is what I suspected. The rodent chow is Kaytee Forti diet Pro Health with DHA omega -3. I will run to the store and pick up some tums. I have copied the feeding list from the board.
Does their health delcline rapidly? What else should I be looking for?
Thanks again, Becky

[CritterMom]

It isn't a bad food, but if it does not form the majority of the diet they may still be deficient. It isn't so much the rodent blocks; it is the other food. Both sunflower seeds and peanuts are very high in phosphorus, so they would need to take in large amounts of calcium to compensate for it. Coincidentally, sunflower seeds and peanuts are WAY yummier than rodent blocks and if given a choice - well it is like me being given a choice between liver and ice cream!

There is a lot of info on MBD in the Nutrition forum.

It usually starts with lethargy and can run the gamut to siezures, paralysis and death/ But if it is MBD you should start to see improvement in a couple days with the added calcium. They aren't fixed at that point - it will take months to get THERE, but if you start to see rapid improvement, you know for sure what you are dealing with.

[pappy1264]

What veggies/fruits are you feeding? Some have more calcium then others. Do they get greens?

[CritterMom]

Here is some good reading for you:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28007

[pitonia]

I mistakenly took the cage out on the deck to get the well one out- he likes to bite, working on that:) now the sick one (sorry no names yet cause I really had not planned on keeping them) Now I can't catch him to go in carrier. He will take drink when I put bowl in front of him. Right now he is laying in his usual spot in the shade. But runs when I try to pick him up.
His fur is fluffed and he seems to look twice his normal size. Is this part of symptoms too?
I am headed for the store now. Thanks for everyones help.
Becky

[Jackie in Tampa]

fluffed and spikey is dehydration and sometimes indicates pain...where are you located...sqs are legal here..in fl
I will help if you are near..otherwise you are getting good advise..
I would start calcium NOW!!!!
I will share my number if needed, I have vets, meds and some experience with sqs...l
Thanks for recognizing he needs help...

WE HAVE ALOT OF FLA MEMBERS that will help...

[pitonia]

As to feeding I have been giving them small amounts of apples, bananas, cantaloupe, watermelon, pear, tomatoe, carrot, lettuce, mushroom, cabbage, cucmber, grapes. Not all everday I try to mix it up. Once in a while strawberry/banana yougurt and a few honey nut cherrios. They get 2 peanuts ea in shell unslated a day. But they did have very small bowl of seed daily. 2 rodent chow ea a day.
Becky

[pitonia]

I am in lakeland. I am going to the store now and will check the board asap when I get back. Thanks for the help,
Becky

[CritterMom]

I don't KNOW that this is the problem but the timing is highly suspect. They get lots of the minerals they need from their formula, so they are fine while nursing. Then they wean and the food they begin to eat does not supply what the formula was. So the young ones that are just weaned are normally the ones we see with this issue.

I would also give calcium to the other squirrel - same diet, same issues - they just have not presented themselves.

A lot of times they will just eat the calcium tabs like they are a treat - my squirrel will beat you silly for a Tums. Of course he likes plastic buttons, too...

[Jackie in Tampa]

beware of heat stroke too

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17785

Many here have my number...just shout if I can help...
will be in and out all day..Lakeland is close...
Rhapsody is in Lakeland ...not sure what is needed, or if she can help...
I would absolutely start calcium.
Please read the emergency treatment for MBD, Metabolic Bone Disease

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17677

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28006

small cage is best ....low heat helps if MBD:Love_Icon

[pitonia]

I am back. He was sitting on top of the light fixture when I got home. Then started to run around. His fur looks better and he is not acting as lethargic. He would not take the tums, but of course the other one couldn't eat it fast enough.

I am wondering if he might have had a bit to much sun yesterday. 1/2 the deck has shade so it's not like they are blasted all day. But maybe the heat got to him. I am going to have to wait till bed time (there's not mine) to get him to eat a tablet and get pedylite in him. Right now he has drank quit a bit of sugar water. And is being uncooperative.

I would love to have either emails or numbers for you all in my area. Not only for emergencies, but tips on how to now get them calmer if that's possible.

Since I was going to release they had as little as possible contact. Since we decided releasing wasn't an option I have been able to get them to sit on my shoulder. Their terms not mine. They come when I call them to go to bed. I would like to be able to pick them up and hold them. My first try ended in blood, again mine not theirs.
Any way bought a bunch of veggies on the list to restart diet, got enough tums to last a bit and pedylite. We'll go from there. I'll keep you posted.
Becky

[CritterMom]

Since they are already wild-ish, why did you decide that release isn't possible?

[SammysMom]

When Sammy weaned he also started to act like MBD was a problem a few weeks later. I did the tums routine and then started adding boo balls with Fox Valley to his diet daily. He still gets 2 per day with 2 squirrel blocks along with veggies and fruits and so far so good. Just a suggestion for future for both. Hope they both do well!:grouphug

[pitonia]

I decided not to release since when I went to do a soft release out on the deck. The one's lack of full faculty was apperent. He would climb on the trees and fall off. Lucky they are not to far from the ground. He would lanch himself at the house and fall to the ground. He is really slow compared to the other one. The only thing he dosen't fall off of is my shoulder. I figuared it was due to the dehydration he suffered before he got to me. They are inseperable now to each other. I don't have the heart to seperate them.

[pitonia]

UPDATE: I have been syringing pedialyte and tums mixture (1 tums to 1/4c water) Not sure if I should add more tums?
Anyway he has only taken in about 5cc's so far.
He is just laying on top of his covers and does not seem to care to much for the heating pad. When I try to pick him up he will let me, but as soon as I place him close he wants to run. Jumps right back in to the carrier and lays flat out.
How often should I force the liquid?
I know he is really dehydrated. Pull neck skin and it dosent bounce back. I have been trying every ten minutes. It seems as though he will only really take a good dose every thirty minutes.
How long before I see some improvment?
Thanks,
Becky

[CritterMom]

Keep giving him the rehydration liquid every half hour, getting as much of it as you can into him each time. When he is peeing freely and it is nice and clear, and his fur smoothes and overall demeanor improves you will know he has had enough and you can start switching him to straight water.

[pitonia]

Just to let everyone know he is doing just fine this morning. Back to his old self. Hoping it was more of a dehydration issue then MBD. I will still keep them on the tums and new diet just in case. Thanks to all.
Still wouldn't mind email info or numbers for those members in my area.
Thanks again,
Becky

[CritterMom]

So why did he become dehydrated? Do you give them their water in a bottle or a dish? If it is a bottle, how often do you check to make sure the little ball in the end hasn't gotten stuck and no water is coming out? They WILL do that.

[Jackie in Tampa]

:wave123 Hi Pitonia, I will Private message you my phone number, I am almost close.

Taking them outside as often as possible is a great idea, yet they will get the required UV even if they are in the shade. Making them feel safe and secluded is always a good idea while they are outside. If they stress and run circles inside cage , there is the possibility of injury and heat stroke. Another stress factor is domestic pets stalking them while they are out. I don't know your situation, but free roaming cats are the worst. Also having them under shade tree or having their cage covered on top will make them less vunerable to hawk stalking.
Bar spacing on their cage is also important, especially if they are outside.
Wouldn't want anything to be able to grab them thru the bars...:shakehead

With the rains we have been having, make sure they and their stuff stays dry....mold issues are a beast and can lead to serious respitory issues.

Yes, I would continue with the additional calcium just in case. The diet posted in the nutrition forum is what they will need to be fed forever, no junk food. Treats should be limited as well as nuts until they are following this diet.
You are getting great advise, ask as many questions as you need...
:worthless
would love to see pics of your set up and sqs!:Love_Icon :Love_Icon

[pitonia]

When they are in their cage they have a water bottle that is always checked 2x daily. When they are on the deck they have 2 bowls on either side of the deck. Since this one is a little slow and it was really hot that day he just may have not drank enough.

I am keeping him in today to make sure his is fully rehydrated before he gets to go out again. He is running all over the cat tree eating and drinking. I think he is feeling much better. He hates the tums. so now I have to figuare out how to get him to take it.

My deck has a screen enclouser so they are well protected. The only thing other then song birds in our yard is one squirrel. He likes to seat in the tree near the screen and they all stare at each other. 1/2 is shaded by outside trees and the other 1/2 most of the afternoon is sunny. There cage is kept in the shade out there while they are out so if they want they can run in and eat. At night they hop in and I roll them into the bedroom for the night.
Becky