Dog has IVDD-maybe not urinating

[Twi_prime]

Hi all. Anyone have experience with Intervertibral Disc Disease in dogs? We're getting a crash course since yesterday, when our 4-year-old Boston terrier/Beagle mix was moving pretty slowly but could still walk. Since late last night, she can no longer walk, it seems. Back limbs seem mostly paralyzed--"mostly" meaning vets at a vet teaching hospital felt she was able to move back limbs on her own just a *tiny* bit when her rear end was held up for her. We're not seeing that at home so far, to tell the truth. They did tell us to be very concerned if we don't see her urinating and it seems we don't. She does poop a little when we take her out and hold her rear end up for her.

Could it be she isn't as comfortable peeing with us holding her up yet? Could it be that she isn't really in control of the pooping and then has even less control over her peeing (i.e. can't squeeze to get it to come out)? Anyone have experience expressing the dog's bladder for her and/or links to helpful videos? Thanks very much.

[Mrs Skul]

:wave123 Hi Twi_prime
Take a hand towel and place it around her belly.
Then hold both ends to gather. Walk with her and hold her rear end up. You will be her back feet. Holding them just barley TIP TOEING! :thumbsup3
This should put enough presser bladder to go pee. Little Boy dogs are harder to help pee. If she does not pee by morning, Call the Vet ASAP!
I have raised Pekingese for many years. (Lots of Slipped disk, and Paralyzed Doggies.) Eventually they would get use of the back feet by a year.
Knot sure about degenerative dice! :dono Did the Dr give you any Predzone, or a Steroid Shot?

[Twi_prime]

:wave123 Hi Twi_prime
Take a hand towel and place it around her belly.
Then hold both ends to gather. Walk with her and hold her rear end up. You will be her back feet. Holding them just barley TIP TOEING! :thumbsup3
This should put enough presser bladder to go pee. Little Boy dogs are harder to help pee. If she does not pee by morning, Call the Vet ASAP!
I have raised Pekingese for many years. (Lots of Slipped disk, and Paralyzed Doggies.) Eventually they would get use of the back feet by a year.
Knot sure about degenerative dice! :dono Did the Dr give you any Predzone, or a Steroid Shot?

Thanks Mrs. Skul. That seems like a pretty easy way to do it. Today she got to the point where it squeezed right out of her when my bf picked her up to take her outside, in fact. Maybe she just finally got full enough.

I've found some videos where people have a technique (or different techniques even) for gently squeezing the bladder with their hand while holding the dog in a standing position. That's what the vet did with my cat a few weeks ago. Too bad I didn't know this was coming; I could have just asked him for some instruction at the time. Maybe you're technique could help us to get her bladder more empty before taking her out of the crate. As in, maybe we could get the sling (or a long ace bandage?) down through the top of the crate, underneath her, and have her pee on a training pad before we take her out to try and get a bowel movement (which I'm not sure are coming under her control at this point :( )

We didn't get any steroids, unless Tramadol has a steroid in it. Our regular vets gave a joint supplement with glucosamine and other stuff, plus Vetprofen (which I think is also called Carprofen). The emergency vets at UF added Tramadol and Diazepam. No steroids so far, although that has occurred to me.

I'm glad to hear your Penkingese got relief after a while. Did you ever use water therapy? Some things I'm reading make me think that, after a period of rest, maybe we should get her a doggie life vest and take her into the pool, under the vets' advice, of course.

Thanks very much. :bowdown

[equine623]

Please be careful attempting to express the bladder if you don't have experience, you can actually rupture the bladder. Palpate the lower abdomen, see if you feel a "water balloon" feeling structure. If so, that's the full bladder. Gentle pressure will help release some of it, as you have seen when she went after being picked up. BUT the danger of not having the bladder fully emptied is an increased risk for UTI. Perhaps its worth a trip back to the vet for exam and hands on teaching.

Are they suggesting surgery or just strict cage rest?

[Twi_prime]

Please be careful attempting to express the bladder if you don't have experience, you can actually rupture the bladder. Palpate the lower abdomen, see if you feel a "water balloon" feeling structure. If so, that's the full bladder. Gentle pressure will help release some of it, as you have seen when she went after being picked up. BUT the danger of not having the bladder fully emptied is an increased risk for UTI. Perhaps its worth a trip back to the vet for exam and hands on teaching.

Are they suggesting surgery or just strict cage rest?

We definitely want to get the vet to demonstrate, since we've heard about these risks. Plus, I think we need them to advise and/or demonstrate expressing her bowels too. She had a couple of small bowel movements early on, but I think maybe it just came out on its own and now we're not seeing much.

We actually saw her scratching with her back left foot today and felt cautiously optimistic about it. I wonder if it's really, really a good sign, or if the nerves that allow her to pick the leg up and scratch wouldn't necessarily allow her to put weight on it or walk. And, of course, it's only the left leg; there's still the right to think about.

Surgery was recommended and we tried to work out the financial end of it. My bf's mom was able to lend us money, but not enough to get the surgery, unfortunately. Probably could have done it if not for the $3000.00 we are still paying back since my bf's cat needed CRF care 2 years ago. We applied for the Care Credit card but were turned down. Those were the only options they offered. I asked about payments, but they said we'd have to put down 75% of the highest estimated cost ($5000.00), which we just have no way of doing. We don't have any kind of credit card, or else we would have happily incurred the debt. So, 6 weeks of crate rest it is. We're wondering--and I'm going to ask our vets about this too--if therapy in the pool would have to come after the crate rest, or if it could start earlier. I'm thinking it might keep her spirits up, among other things. Not gonna jump the gun or act without their ok though, of course.

Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge. We welcome advice! :)

[equine623]

I'm by no means an expert, but here's what I know. There is two kinds of disc problems, one is an actual rupture and one is more of a bulging disc due to compression. If the disc is bulging and the pet is allowed to continue with activities, this can lead to a rupture. So absolute cage rest is required. Definitely no pool, no stairs, no walking, running, jumping...nothing. Sounds ridiculous now because she's not voluntarily moving, but if after a month she wants to go out and play you still need to be cautious.

Prognosis isn't great with those that are paralyzed, unfortunately. Did they do a deep pain response test to see if the legs have feeling still?

I don't know what your feelings on things like this are, but acupuncture can help with pain and inflammation - may not fix the disc but might help her be more comfortable.

Good nutrition is vital. Anti-oxidants can help general immune function and also reduce inflammation. Make sure she is drinking enough. Probiotics can help too if the pain meds are making her stomach unhappy.

I can totally understand about financial limitations. As long as she's comfortable, you can see how cage rest goes. And remember, surgery is a good option but still not a guarantee that things will be fixed, or that it won't happen again.

Good luck,
Jill, CVT

[vettechmarie]

Hi all. Anyone have experience with Intervertibral Disc Disease in dogs? We're getting a crash course since yesterday, when our 4-year-old Boston terrier/Beagle mix was moving pretty slowly but could still walk. Since late last night, she can no longer walk, it seems. Back limbs seem mostly paralyzed--"mostly" meaning vets at a vet teaching hospital felt she was able to move back limbs on her own just a *tiny* bit when her rear end was held up for her. We're not seeing that at home so far, to tell the truth. They did tell us to be very concerned if we don't see her urinating and it seems we don't. She does poop a little when we take her out and hold her rear end up for her.

Could it be she isn't as comfortable peeing with us holding her up yet? Could it be that she isn't really in control of the pooping and then has even less control over her peeing (i.e. can't squeeze to get it to come out)? Anyone have experience expressing the dog's bladder for her and/or links to helpful videos? Thanks very much.



Hi Twi. As someone mentioned there is a large distinction between a herniated disc, a ruptured disc, and a bulging disc. Herniated means that the outer shell of the disc has a crack in it and the inside of the disc is poking out, ruptured means ruptured, and a bulging or pinched disc means that the space between the vertebrae is smaller than it should be and is "pinching the disk". A pinched disc is the easiest to deal with.

The vet NEEDS to give you muscle relaxers for the dog. Tramadol is pain medication but will do nothing to help relax those muscles. The key with disc problems is CAGE REST CAGE REST CAGE RESTtinfoil . If you can get methocarbamol (muscle relaxer) along with the tramadol she may have a chance to get better. I see them all the time, and it is possible for her to get better.

The only thing that worries me is the lack of mobility in the back legs. They really need to get her on a muscle relaxer. With pinched discs, dogs tend to anticipate pain and keep their muscles tense, which only worsens the problem.

As far as expressing her bladder at home. It feels like a water balloon. Squeeze gently while she is standing over the grass or pee pad. Though it is possible to rupture a bladder, it is very hard to do so. Don't be afraid, but dont squeeze as hard as you can. Use your best judgement.


The good news is if she isn't constantly trickling pee and/or poop, she may have a good chance of being able to recover. When a dog is paralyzed in the back end they lose complete control of the muscles that allow them to defecate and urinate. So the fact that she obviously has not lost that control is a very good thing.


Good luck!

[Twi_prime]

I'm by no means an expert, but here's what I know. There is two kinds of disc problems, one is an actual rupture and one is more of a bulging disc due to compression. If the disc is bulging and the pet is allowed to continue with activities, this can lead to a rupture. So absolute cage rest is required. Definitely no pool, no stairs, no walking, running, jumping...nothing. Sounds ridiculous now because she's not voluntarily moving, but if after a month she wants to go out and play you still need to be cautious.

Prognosis isn't great with those that are paralyzed, unfortunately. Did they do a deep pain response test to see if the legs have feeling still?

I don't know what your feelings on things like this are, but acupuncture can help with pain and inflammation - may not fix the disc but might help her be more comfortable.

Good nutrition is vital. Anti-oxidants can help general immune function and also reduce inflammation. Make sure she is drinking enough. Probiotics can help too if the pain meds are making her stomach unhappy.

I can totally understand about financial limitations. As long as she's comfortable, you can see how cage rest goes. And remember, surgery is a good option but still not a guarantee that things will be fixed, or that it won't happen again.

Good luck,
Jill, CVT

Hi Jill, I'm honestly not sure if it's a bulge or a rupture.

The discharge papers from UF (the emergency vet we most recently saw) mention that my local vet (whose paperwork given to us says nothing about the diagnosis) did x-rays showing 'degernative disc disease of the thoracolumbar vertebrae.'

Local labwork all normal and 'showing a stress leukogram.'

Under problems, UF's paperwork lists Hindlimb paraplegia, deep pain positive, T3 - L3 Lesion.

Under diagnosis, UF says 'Open for T3-L3 lesion - suspect Intervertebral disk disease, other differentials include meningitis, diskospondylitis, FCE or neoplasia.' The only one of those the doc seemed to focus on was FCE--which he says is fibrocartilagenous embolism and explained as disc fluid coming out of the disc and shooting into the spinal cord and said some cases of it get better on their own).

UF says its neurologic exam showed hindlimb paraplegia, hindlimb CP deficits, intermittent superficial and deep pain response in the hindlimb, and hindlimb hyperreflexia. These (and things they listed as normal in the cranial nerves and forelimbs) they say are 'consistent with a spinal cord lesion between T3 and L3.'

Things I'm not really clear on the meaning of are the stress leukogram, CP deficits, and hyperreflexia.

He did mention that the 4 - 6 weeks of strict cage rest is the most important part of her treatment. First time I really noticed that strong statement. So, thanks for pointing out the strictness of it for me too. :) Now, she does sit herself up in the cage. Do you think that's ok? Today, we've noticed her trying to scratch with her back *right* foot (she started using the left for that a little since yesterday). D'you think those returing movements could do her any harm? Seems like it would be hard--and maybe cruel? I don't know--to keep her from scratching?

I'm not against accupuncture, although I doubt we could afford it any more than surgery, to be truthful. We're all for anti-oxidants too. For a dog, would we want to be thinking about vegetables or pill supplements or something else? Any specific recommendations?

Thanks for reading this looooonnnnnnggg reply. If you have other ideas, or can clarify those things I don't understand, it's much appreciated.

[Twi_prime]

Hi Twi. As someone mentioned there is a large distinction between a herniated disc, a ruptured disc, and a bulging disc. Herniated means that the outer shell of the disc has a crack in it and the inside of the disc is poking out, ruptured means ruptured, and a bulging or pinched disc means that the space between the vertebrae is smaller than it should be and is "pinching the disk". A pinched disc is the easiest to deal with.

The vet NEEDS to give you muscle relaxers for the dog. Tramadol is pain medication but will do nothing to help relax those muscles. The key with disc problems is CAGE REST CAGE REST CAGE RESTtinfoil . If you can get methocarbamol (muscle relaxer) along with the tramadol she may have a chance to get better. I see them all the time, and it is possible for her to get better.

The only thing that worries me is the lack of mobility in the back legs. They really need to get her on a muscle relaxer. With pinched discs, dogs tend to anticipate pain and keep their muscles tense, which only worsens the problem.

As far as expressing her bladder at home. It feels like a water balloon. Squeeze gently while she is standing over the grass or pee pad. Though it is possible to rupture a bladder, it is very hard to do so. Don't be afraid, but dont squeeze as hard as you can. Use your best judgement.


The good news is if she isn't constantly trickling pee and/or poop, she may have a good chance of being able to recover. When a dog is paralyzed in the back end they lose complete control of the muscles that allow them to defecate and urinate. So the fact that she obviously has not lost that control is a very good thing.


Good luck!

Hi Marie. As I was mentioning in my reply to Equine623, I'm just not sure what kind of disc problem it is. If I could scan the x-rays and post them (don't know if that's possible), would you have any idea what it shows about the abnormal area? [actually, I'm looking closely at some other explanations and it sounds like he's saying MRI would be the best way to know for sure?)

Does the Diazempam (is that valium?) have muscle relaxant qualities? I had the idea he said that's what it's prescribed for. Will you please let me know if that doesn't sound right? Is the methocarbamol far superior?

On the bladder expression, one of the local vets showed me today--she and her techs were a huge help; I can't pick her carrier up by myself and I have a very tough time picking her up out of the carrier; my bf couldn't be there. What she showed me seems very simple and she did say that it's very unlikely I would rupture her bladder, especially since there doesn't seem to be any blockage. Since Cici is pretty big, she worked while Cici lay on her side. She also said that she thinks Cici is doing some of the peeing on her own and that her anal tone looks good, so she doesn't think we need to express poop at this time. Maybe, she says, Cici is just not going 'cause she's spending so much time in the carrier (we do carry her outside to go, but I imagine having her rear end held up and us standing close by isn't her ideal situation).

Thanks for the encouraging news on what her peeing and pooing abilities tell us. She doesn't seem to be dribbling pee or poo unstimulated. She just gets rid of the pee when we pick her up. Not sure if that could be gravity or stress or just that I'm sure her belly gets pressed on a little when Danny picks her up. We are really happy to hear the things we can be cautiously optimistic about. She's a very happy, sweet dog and we want her to have a great life. I'll post a pic of her next. :)

[Twi_prime]

Here's a pic of Cici with her Daddy, probably in 2010?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v372/Twi_prime/Ciciinmaybe2010.jpg

[vettechmarie]

Hi Marie. As I was mentioning in my reply to Equine623, I'm just not sure what kind of disc problem it is. If I could scan the x-rays and post them (don't know if that's possible), would you have any idea what it shows about the abnormal area? [actually, I'm looking closely at some other explanations and it sounds like he's saying MRI would be the best way to know for sure?)

Does the Diazempam (is that valium?) have muscle relaxant qualities? I had the idea he said that's what it's prescribed for. Will you please let me know if that doesn't sound right? Is the methocarbamol far superior?

On the bladder expression, one of the local vets showed me today--she and her techs were a huge help; I can't pick her carrier up by myself and I have a very tough time picking her up out of the carrier; my bf couldn't be there. What she showed me seems very simple and she did say that it's very unlikely I would rupture her bladder, especially since there doesn't seem to be any blockage. Since Cici is pretty big, she worked while Cici lay on her side. She also said that she thinks Cici is doing some of the peeing on her own and that her anal tone looks good, so she doesn't think we need to express poop at this time. Maybe, she says, Cici is just not going 'cause she's spending so much time in the carrier (we do carry her outside to go, but I imagine having her rear end held up and us standing close by isn't her ideal situation).

Thanks for the encouraging news on what her peeing and pooing abilities tell us. She doesn't seem to be dribbling pee or poo unstimulated. She just gets rid of the pee when we pick her up. Not sure if that could be gravity or stress or just that I'm sure her belly gets pressed on a little when Danny picks her up. We are really happy to hear the things we can be cautiously optimistic about. She's a very happy, sweet dog and we want her to have a great life. I'll post a pic of her next. :)


Good anal tone is great news! Means she is not paralyzed and the problem lies within the relationship between her back and legs. Expressing a bladder is pretty easy, especially if they have showed you :-) You will most likely have little problems. Like I said and the vet said, it is quite difficult to actually rupture a bladder.

Unfortunately, an MRI is the only way to know what is specifically wrong with her back. Depending on where you live, MRI's can cost in the upwards of 2000$. If she has had xrays done, the vet should have been able to look at them and see if the spaces in the vertebrae are all normal size. If there was an abnormally small one, that would most likely mean she has a pinched disc.


Diazepam (valium) has relaxing qualities, but is more effective for neurological issues because it also acts as a anti-neurotic. In my opinion, Methocarbamol is far superior for back issues because it specifically focuses on the muscles, while leaving the dog completely lucid and able to function. The other thing I would worry about with Diazepam, is she will lose a lot of function in everything, which is really what we are trying to go against. You could think she's getting worse, or not able to walk still, but she could truly just be too knocked out from the Diazepam. Tramadol and Methocarbamol are a great combo for anything back related. I would definitely ask your vet if you can get some, I would even insist if I had too! lol:poke

If it was my dog, I would continue the cage rest for a total of 6 weeks, 4 is a little low for such a severely disabled doggie. She can do whatever she wants within the cage as long as she isnt chasing her tail, or doing backflips. :-) If there is already more movement in her back legs, that is GREAT news. That means she most likely can get better if handled correctly. I would not worry about the MRI, way too expensive. Just cage rest, meds, and pray! Do you know if they tested her skin reflex in her back end? If not, try taking tweezers and pinching up and down her back and legs, and look for a "knee jerk" movement of the skin. If she doesn not have that reflex, try to isolate where the lack of reflex starts. (i.e. start at her head and go down her back till it stops)

[equine623]

Hi Jill, I'm honestly not sure if it's a bulge or a rupture.

The discharge papers from UF (the emergency vet we most recently saw) mention that my local vet (whose paperwork given to us says nothing about the diagnosis) did x-rays showing 'degernative disc disease of the thoracolumbar vertebrae.'

Local labwork all normal and 'showing a stress leukogram.'

Under problems, UF's paperwork lists Hindlimb paraplegia, deep pain positive, T3 - L3 Lesion.

Under diagnosis, UF says 'Open for T3-L3 lesion - suspect Intervertebral disk disease, other differentials include meningitis, diskospondylitis, FCE or neoplasia.' The only one of those the doc seemed to focus on was FCE--which he says is fibrocartilagenous embolism and explained as disc fluid coming out of the disc and shooting into the spinal cord and said some cases of it get better on their own).

UF says its neurologic exam showed hindlimb paraplegia, hindlimb CP deficits, intermittent superficial and deep pain response in the hindlimb, and hindlimb hyperreflexia. These (and things they listed as normal in the cranial nerves and forelimbs) they say are 'consistent with a spinal cord lesion between T3 and L3.'

Things I'm not really clear on the meaning of are the stress leukogram, CP deficits, and hyperreflexia.

He did mention that the 4 - 6 weeks of strict cage rest is the most important part of her treatment. First time I really noticed that strong statement. So, thanks for pointing out the strictness of it for me too. :) Now, she does sit herself up in the cage. Do you think that's ok? Today, we've noticed her trying to scratch with her back *right* foot (she started using the left for that a little since yesterday). D'you think those returing movements could do her any harm? Seems like it would be hard--and maybe cruel? I don't know--to keep her from scratching?

I'm not against accupuncture, although I doubt we could afford it any more than surgery, to be truthful. We're all for anti-oxidants too. For a dog, would we want to be thinking about vegetables or pill supplements or something else? Any specific recommendations?

Thanks for reading this looooonnnnnnggg reply. If you have other ideas, or can clarify those things I don't understand, it's much appreciated.


The stres leukogram is a change in blood cells that is typically seen on a stressed animal, so while the results are "abnormal" it is a pattern that is normally seen...if that makes sense.

CP is conscious propioception. Basically does the brain know where the limb in in regard to the rest of the body and the surrounding environment. In a dog with normal CP, if you flip their front paw over (i.e. try to touch the bottom pads to the back of the "wrist") and try to place the top of the foot on the ground they will immediately turn it the right way. With a loss of CP the animal simply stands on the bent foot, or takes a long time to right the foot. hope that makes sense, its easier to demonstrate then explain.

Hyperreflexia is what is sounds like - when the reflexes were checked their was a much more dramatic response...a hyper response - not the typical small jerk or muscle twitch but a much bigger reaction.

Again, I hope that makes sense....some things are easier to show than explain over a computer. Let me know if you want me to clarify.

As far as anti-oxidants go...probably supplements. Vitamin C and E are easy to obtain and relatively inexpensive. Coenzyme q-10 or SOD which is superoxide dismutase have been recommended by a vet for skeletal problems as well. If you're interested I can look up dosages...let me know what she weighs.

I don't think you need to stop her from scratching. If she starts getting restless or bored in the cage, as they often will, especially as they start feeling better, then you will have to come up with safe ways to entertain her.

The fact that she has deep pain response is good. Good anal tone is a great sign as is controlling her urine and bowel movements. I'm glad you were shown how to express the bladder. It isn't hard to do and I agree that rupturing a bladder isn't easy necessarily but still not a risk worth taking IMO if you can get a hands on lesson.

I think that was mostly everything...sorry for the long reply :rotfl Hope it helps. There are homeopathic remedies that can help - not sure where you stand on those. I can PM or email you that info, I know not everyone on the board supports alternative therapies.

Good luck :)
Jill, CVT

[Twi_prime]

Good anal tone is great news! Means she is not paralyzed and the problem lies within the relationship between her back and legs.

Marie, could you elaborate on that? I'm not sure what that means. To my untrained ear, that sounds like 'the nerves aren't communicating between her spine and legs,' which sounds like nerve damage/paralysis. Again, to my untrained ear. Help me understand what it really means please?