To release, or not to release......

[LiLTreeRat]

Ok, need some advice...(forgive any crazy typing mistakes....Trooper likes to be the center of attetion and demands my hands play with him and NOT the keyboard.)

Anyway, he came to me as about a 2 week old cat attack baby that couldn't use his front legs at all. He is now appraoching 5 months old and gets around wonderfully dispite his "monkey foot" syndrom as I refer to it. He used his "hands" to eat and climb almost normal, however, when he walks/ runs, he turns his front feet/ hands under,palms up. He plays, climbs, runs, jumps, eats just fine. I just worry that what I think is "fine" may not be in the wild.

Oh, and for those of you that are farmiliar with him....the leaning to the left neuro symptoms he was showing....stopped...at least no signs of them for the past 4 days. :dono

What do you guys think?

[SammysMom]

That sounds a little scary for climbing to me. Not an expert though and I'm sure they will be here soon to weigh in.
Sounds like you did a great job with him though! :thumbsup

[stepnstone]

Lets vision a scenario here... He's trying to escape a predator, he jumps for a far branch. Misses with his hind feet, can't hold on with his front due to palms up...
Just my opinion but his handicap could make him an outcast, could make him prey. I would be really concerned about him in the wild.

[astra]

I am no expert either, but just using common sense, how fast will he run like that?... most likely, not fast enough to get away from predators. the entire anatomy/mechanics is off, he won't be able to push well enough off the ground to propel himself and develop speed fast enough to run away from predators...

...another thing - more dominant squirrels could pick on him because of his visible "difference"...

[crazysquirrels]

I would hang onto him until next year. You mention neuro issues and the feet thing. Give him more time to make 100% sure he is OK.

[LiLTreeRat]

I just know the longer I hang on to him, the harder it will be to let go...not necessarily for him, but for me, especially if he doesn't do the typical "wild up" soon. He was raised as a single and has never seen another squirrel....the closest thing to a squirrel he's seen is my chinchilla.:)

I just want so bad for him to 100% heal and be free. On the other hand, I love him so much, and my selfishness wants to keep him forever....I love him to pieces! He's the sweetest thing.

Thanks for your input, guess we will wait and see. One of the main reasons I am thinking about this is if he isn't releasable, I'm looking into neutering him, so it's a time thing....I'm being told that neutering now is best, but I certainly don't want to do that if he's able to be released.

:dono :thinking :dono :thinking

[LiLTreeRat]

Lets vision a scenario here... He's trying to escape a predator, he jumps for a far branch. Misses with his hind feet, can't hold on with his front due to palms up...
Just my opinion but his handicap could make him an outcast, could make him prey. I would be really concerned about him in the wild.

He holds onto things and climbs well...it's just when he walks along the ground. The outcast thing makes sense though, didn't concider that....good point.

[4skwerlz]

I just know the longer I hang on to him, the harder it will be to let go...not necessarily for him, but for me, especially if he doesn't do the typical "wild up" soon. He was raised as a single and has never seen another squirrel....the closest thing to a squirrel he's seen is my chinchilla.:)

I just want so bad for him to 100% heal and be free. On the other hand, I love him so much, and my selfishness wants to keep him forever....I love him to pieces! He's the sweetest thing.

Thanks for your input, guess we will wait and see. One of the main reasons I am thinking about this is if he isn't releasable, I'm looking into neutering him, so it's a time thing....I'm being told that neutering now is best, but I certainly don't want to do that if he's able to be released.

:dono :thinking :dono :thinking

I've heard vets recommend neutering an NR male, but I've yet to hear a single case of an actual NR male where neutering made a difference. I researched it pretty thoroughly for my Henry. There are MANY NR males out there, not neutered, who are sweet as can be (including my Henry, going on 4 yo).

If that's your main concern, I wouldn't worry; just take one day at a time.:)

[UDoWhat]

Hi LilTreeRat, To release or NOT TO RELEASE ... He sounds darling, but IMHO he absolutely can not be released in his condition. I know you said he can climb, hold on to things, etc., but he is NR from what you describe. I would need to see video of him, but what I'm reading here is not consistent with a releasable animal. To release him is making him easy prey for any prey animal. Also with his digits turning under, can he hold a nut? Can he sit up to eat. Also what was he raised on as far as formula. He sounds as though he has some long bone formation abnormalities. This can be from incorrect formula/nutrition values. I would need to evaluate this and other questions before I could make a decision for sure. :dono

Marty, Licensed Maryland Master Wildlife Rehabilitator

[crazysquirrels]

I have had 2 singles. Jackie was released. Very hard to do but she is happy. Talula just loves to play. Not sure she is ready. I knew Jackie was ready. I get mixed signals ffrom Talula. But when the time comes she will let me know. Just as your boy will let you know. That is the time to worry about. I was very very sad and scared when Jackie was set free. But 1 year later she is well and doing great. I LOVE her very much and still do. I think your boy should stay put for now. Great for him and you.

[SammysMom]

I understand wanting him to be whole and free, but if he doesn't have complete and proper use of his front feet then he probably isn't ever going to be 100%, right? Maybe a nice big outdoor cage where he can have the best of both worlds. :grouphug

[island rehabber]

I've got to agree with UdoWhat and others who say NR....this does not sound like a good situation for release, to me. For what it's worth I have also known NR males who are NOT neutered but who are sweet as pie. Lenny, who now lives at Tomo's, for example. :Love_Icon I swear it's the females you gotta watch out for. :D

[SammysMom]

IR, isn't it usually the females you have to watch out for? I know I am a whole lot more likely to take your head off than my husband is...lol :jump :jump :jump

[CritterMom]

Yup, Mister P, who is NR only because I stink so completely as a rehabber, has matured into an absolute sweetie pie who wants only to be permanently velcroed to his mommy. And as he is so very happy to demonstrate at the drop of a hat, Mister P is ALL MAN!!!

[Pierre]

I've got to agree with UdoWhat and others who say NR....this does not sound like a good situation for release, to me. For what it's worth I have also known NR males who are NOT neutered but who are sweet as pie. Lenny, who now lives at Tomo's, for example. :Love_Icon I swear it's the females you gotta watch out for. :D

Haha about the females.

I agree with IR [and others]. If he runs on his wrists he will eventually get sores and cuts on them in the wild. Wrists are not padded like soles of feet and won't stand up [pun intended] to the punishment of being walked on.

Additionally, I wouldn't neuter him. Male rats are rarely neutered [as it confers no strong health benefit] and the only time it is recommended is if the male is very very aggressive with other males. It is unusual for a male rat to be aggressive to its owner, even if it is with other rats [then it's a bad line or socialization issue]. [Females are a little different due to a propensity for mammary tumors in [primarily not exclusively] not-so-well-bred rats.]

You know, the world loves to spay and neuter animals. I am all for it to help reduce the significant number of unwanted litters, shelter animals, or for an aggressive animal. But for purely health reasons, I disagree. Women who have hysterectomies [including ovaries] have health issues due to the lack of hormones this creates. Mens' testicles aren't removed to decrease some possible health issue. We need our hormones [under normal situations] so why wouldn't animals? Estrogen and testosterone.

[LiLTreeRat]

Hi LilTreeRat, To release or NOT TO RELEASE ... He sounds darling, but IMHO he absolutely can not be released in his condition. I know you said he can climb, hold on to things, etc., but he is NR from what you describe. I would need to see video of him, but what I'm reading here is not consistent with a releasable animal. To release him is making him easy prey for any prey animal. Also with his digits turning under, can he hold a nut? Can he sit up to eat. Also what was he raised on as far as formula. He sounds as though he has some long bone formation abnormalities. This can be from incorrect formula/nutrition values. I would need to evaluate this and other questions before I could make a decision for sure. :dono


He can sit and hold a nut just fine. Its only when he walks along the floor that he walks palms up some of the time....not the entire time. He was raised on GNC Puppy Formula...not the best I know, but I didn't learn abot FV until he was close to being ready for solid introduction. He has been eating Rodent block as his main source since he was about 6 weeks old...started as powdered rodent block in yogurt/ oatmeal balls, which he still eats daily...LOVES them! He also eats Dandelion greens, brocclii, califlower, carrots, apples, and other occasional fruits. His problem is from nerve damage from a cat bite....he couldn't use his front arms AT ALL for the first month of his life, then slowly got better...he's almost there!....So hopefull he can fully recover!:)

[island rehabber]

Let's say this: the day you see him go 24 hours without walking a single step on his wrists is the day you begin the release process :) :thumbsup.

Re: spay/neuter, Pierre makes a great point. "The world" behaves as though there are no consequences to spaying/neutering that are not beneficial, but it's untrue. I had an intact tomcat for years (the BF wouldn't neuter him :shakehead). Whenever he went in for a vet visit, the vet would stroke him and say "Wow....the musculature in this cat is unbelievable. He's like a body builder. I've forgotten what a "real" male cat looks like." Kinda sad, huh? But when we're faced with millions of unwanted kittens being killed, I guess we can put up with our chubby eunuch boys . :peace

[LiLTreeRat]

Haha about the females.

I agree with IR [and others]. If he runs on his wrists he will eventually get sores and cuts on them in the wild. Wrists are not padded like soles of feet and won't stand up [pun intended] to the punishment of being walked on.

Additionally, I wouldn't neuter him. Male rats are rarely neutered [as it confers no strong health benefit] and the only time it is recommended is if the male is very very aggressive with other males. It is unusual for a male rat to be aggressive to its owner, even if it is with other rats [then it's a bad line or socialization issue]. [Females are a little different due to a propensity for mammary tumors in [primarily not exclusively] not-so-well-bred rats.]

You know, the world loves to spay and neuter animals. I am all for it to help reduce the significant number of unwanted litters, shelter animals, or for an aggressive animal. But for purely health reasons, I disagree. Women who have hysterectomies [including ovaries] have health issues due to the lack of hormones this creates. Mens' testicles aren't removed to decrease some possible health issue. We need our hormones [under normal situations] so why wouldn't animals? Estrogen and testosterone.

I somewhat disagree... testicles are removed and ovariohysterectomies are done in animals to reduce the onset later in life of problems such as testicular and prostate cancers in males and pyometras (fatal ovarian infections) in females. If the animal has no "need" for these parts, why put the animal at risk for these problems later in life? I guess it's all a matter of opinion. :D

[astra]

Haha about the females.

I agree with IR [and others]. If he runs on his wrists he will eventually get sores and cuts on them in the wild. Wrists are not padded like soles of feet and won't stand up [pun intended] to the punishment of being walked on.

Additionally, I wouldn't neuter him. Male rats are rarely neutered [as it confers no strong health benefit] and the only time it is recommended is if the male is very very aggressive with other males. It is unusual for a male rat to be aggressive to its owner, even if it is with other rats [then it's a bad line or socialization issue]. [Females are a little different due to a propensity for mammary tumors in [primarily not exclusively] not-so-well-bred rats.]

You know, the world loves to spay and neuter animals. I am all for it to help reduce the significant number of unwanted litters, shelter animals, or for an aggressive animal. But for purely health reasons, I disagree. Women who have hysterectomies [including ovaries] have health issues due to the lack of hormones this creates. Mens' testicles aren't removed to decrease some possible health issue. We need our hormones [under normal situations] so why wouldn't animals? Estrogen and testosterone.
:goodpost well said, Pierre.

Personally, I don't think that walking on inverted paws is something to recover from... of course, miracles happen in medicine, but... this seems to have been caused by some muscular-skeletal developmental problems that, usually, remain for life. Depending on the severity they can be improved, but never fully reversed... If that's his case, he is a NR. So, love him and cuddle him :Love_Icon :)

[Pierre]

I somewhat disagree... testicles are removed and ovariohysterectomies are done in animals to reduce the onset later in life of problems such as testicular and prostate cancers in males and pyometras (fatal ovarian infections) in females. If the animal has no "need" for these parts, why put the animal at risk for these problems later in life? I guess it's all a matter of opinion. :D

Well, it's not just a matter of opinion [meaning there is medical data], tho there is some personal decisions made of course. Too much to get into here, for both sides I believe [well, for me anyway]. While we can live without some parts it doesn't mean it is ideal. Regarding prostate cancer, it was researched greatly to see if the reduction of dihydrotestosterone would reduce prostate cancer and it did not. It does help reduce BPH . Removal of testes will remove testicular cancer but this is not a common cancer.

[B]
As with all in medicine, benefits over risks. There are some cases where the benefits [strong family history or overt disease] are greater than the risks, but routine spaying/neutering without specific reason [other than the reasons I stated before etc], I'm against and have seen no compelling medical data to counter this.

[Pierre]

I had an intact tomcat for years (the BF wouldn't neuter him :shakehead). Whenever he went in for a vet visit, the vet would stroke him and say "Wow....the musculature in this cat is unbelievable. He's like a body builder. I've forgotten what a "real" male cat looks like." Kinda sad, huh? But when we're faced with millions of unwanted kittens being killed, I guess we can put up with our chubby eunuch boys . :peace


Fantastic story. How wonderful. :grouphug My black lab lived to 15 1/2 yrs old, intact. My westie, 19 1/2, intact. My current yellow lab, is only six but will remain intact unless he develops some testicular issue. All my boys were lean, muscular, [15 1/2 year old still walked up the stairs every night until he passed] and healthy.

[island rehabber]

All my boys were lean, muscular, [15 1/2 year old still walked up the stairs every night until he passed] and healthy.

I never neutered my male dogs, because they never roamed outdoors alone. Cats are a different story, of course. The ferals I feed now are here largely BECAUSE OF that lovely muscle-bound tomcat fellow....:sanp3:shakehead.

[Pierre]

I never neutered my male dogs, because they never roamed outdoors alone. Cats are a different story, of course. The ferals I feed now are here largely BECAUSE OF that lovely muscle-bound tomcat fellow....:sanp3:shakehead.

Yes, my dogs never roam either. Walks and fenced yard. Even if they did, all the females are spayed! :rotfl I love your tomcat story, and "oops" about your wealth of ferals! Roaming animals, should not roam first of all, but if somehow they have to :thinking they should be spayed/neutered. There are cities that capture feral animals and do just this, then return them.

[UDoWhat]

Back to your original concern with respect to your little one. My first thought as to being a non-releasable seems to be probable. However, I would agree that if he is able, in time, to walk as a normal squirrel on his foot pads, I would most definitely begin a slow, soft release. Would it be posssible for you to post a video of him walking on his wrists so I (we) might be able to evaluate him a little better? Some believe that one day of freedom is better than all lifetime in a cage. I am afraid this could be the outcome if released in this condition. I will look for futher info as to how or if this can be corrected in time

Marty

[astra]

I somewhat disagree... testicles are removed and ovariohysterectomies are done in animals to reduce the onset later in life of problems such as testicular and prostate cancers in males and pyometras (fatal ovarian infections) in females. If the animal has no "need" for these parts, why put the animal at risk for these problems later in life? I guess it's all a matter of opinion Well, it's not just a matter of opinion [meaning there is medical data], tho there is some personal decisions made of course. Too much to get into here, for both sides I believe [well, for me anyway]. While we can live without some parts it doesn't mean it is ideal. Regarding prostate cancer, it was researched greatly to see if the reduction of dihydrotestosterone would reduce prostate cancer and it did not. It does help reduce BPH . Removal of testes will remove testicular cancer but this is not a common cancer.

[B]
As with all in medicine, benefits over risks. There are some cases where the benefits [strong family history or overt disease] are greater than the risks, but routine spaying/neutering without specific reason [other than the reasons I stated before etc], I'm against and have seen no compelling medical data to counter this.
have to agree with Pierre, again ;-)
I will just add that there has not been enough research about the risks of testicular and prostate cancer in male squirrels, kept as pets. And so far, there don't seem to be any recurring, consistent problems of that kind among male pet/NR squirrels on TSB.
And all decent honest doctors/surgeons will tell you that any surgery should be the last resourt, only after all other possible and impossible treatments/means/meds/etc etc failed.

[Busysqrl]

I'm certainly no expert, but I do believe the push to spay and neuter dogs and cats is not necessarily for the health of the animal, but to decrease population which is admirable. However, in the case of an NR squirrel, that's not necessary. Anesthesia is something you want to avoid if you can. I have an NR adult male gray squirrel who I rescued from my yard as a 9 month old semi-adult squirrel. It's taken about 6 months, but he is now a TOTAL pet and CRAVES being held and snuggled. Therefore, I do not believe that neutering necessarily makes the animal a better pet and I would go so far as to suggest that for small animals who aren't going to be released, that it's a money making opportunity for the vet and that only. Of course if the male becomes overly aggressive, that might be a reason to neuter, but I wouldn't neuter just for general purposes. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

A video of your boy would definately be helpful, but he doesn't sound releaseable to me if he doesn't have full good use of his feet. I know my male could get around in my backyard, but was picked on so mercilessly by the other squirrels because he couldn't jump far to get away from them, he couldn't get to the feeders and was very debilitated by the time I caught him. Just food for thought.

[LiLTreeRat]

Well, it's not just a matter of opinion [meaning there is medical data], tho there is some personal decisions made of course. Too much to get into here, for both sides I believe [well, for me anyway]. While we can live without some parts it doesn't mean it is ideal. Regarding prostate cancer, it was researched greatly to see if the reduction of dihydrotestosterone would reduce prostate cancer and it did not. It does help reduce BPH . Removal of testes will remove testicular cancer but this is not a common cancer.

[B]
As with all in medicine, benefits over risks. There are some cases where the benefits [strong family history or overt disease] are greater than the risks, but routine spaying/neutering without specific reason [other than the reasons I stated before etc], I'm against and have seen no compelling medical data to counter this.

I agree...too much to get into here....being in the veterinary medicine field for 15 years..... we could certainly go on and on! :D Thanks for your input, it is very much appreciated!

[LiLTreeRat]

Therefore, I do not believe that neutering necessarily makes the animal a better pet and I would go so far as to suggest that for small animals who aren't going to be released, that it's a money making opportunity for the vet and that only. Of course if the male becomes overly aggressive, that might be a reason to neuter, but I wouldn't neuter just for general purposes. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

Just a note....the vet in the case wouldn't make any money.....I work for him :) The thought was simply for behavioral issues that could arise with the testosterone levels in intact males., which certainly may not be the case with squirrels such as it is in other animals....thats why I came here for advice, and what WONDERFUL advice I have recieved from everyone!!! Thanks so much!!
:jump

[Pierre]

:) Even if we have some slight differences in our thoughts on spaying and neutering :) , I know you without question are looking out for the best for your little guy, and have helped him soooo much already. You obviously have a big big heart! :Love_Icon

I look forward to seeing pictures and/or videos of your cutie, to watching him grow, and hopefully seeing him improve more and more as time goes on.

[astra]

:) Even if we have some slight differences in our thoughts on spaying and neutering :) , I know you without question are looking out for the best for your little guy, and have helped him soooo much already. You obviously have a big big heart! :Love_Icon

I look forward to seeing pictures and/or videos of your cutie, to watching him grow, and hopefully seeing him improve more and more as time goes on.
Pierre made another excellent and absolutely essential point!:D
:worthless

[Pierre]

:worthless

Like Astra said:

We love pix!!

:jump

[LiLTreeRat]

ok....here are a few....not the best pics, but in one of them, you can see him turning his foot under......


140751 140752


140753



:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :

[astra]

ok....here are a few....not the best pics, but in one of them, you can see him turning his foot under......:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :
OMGOODNESS! Look at that little face and huge eyes! Must confess, if he were mine, I'd be secretly excited that I could keep him forever :hidechair :tilt (as much as I would want him to be released, too, i;-)), but you know what I mean ;-).

[Pierre]

OMGOODNESS! Look at that little face and huge eyes! Must confess, if he were mine, I'd be secretly excited that I could keep him forever :hidechair :tilt (as much as I would want him to be released, too, i;-)), but you know what I mean ;-).

Me too! Exactly what Astra said! He looks like an angel. :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

Kiss that sweet little face for me.

I wonder if getting little soft splints or something might help keep him from turning his palms under?... To strengthen his wrists. Maybe he could wear them when you have him out or something. Kind of like corrective shoeing.

Try PM'ing Natures Gift if you like. She is another excellent rehabber who also often has clever ideas to go along with those you're getting here.

[UDoWhat]

:Love_Icon He is so cute. When he walks did you say he turns both feet under? I really don't know what to say about him. I still would need to evaluate him actually walking, climbing, etc. to be sure. Thanks for the pictures. They do help. I would like to see the way he walks in a video if possible.
Now, I was wondering since you have access to a Vet would your Vet take a look at him? It could be something as simple as a "snip this or snip that" surgery to allow muscles/tendons or whatever to lengthen to have his feet become normal. Just wondering? Also, the neutering dilemma is most likely a personal choice. I have had male squirrels both with and without :) . I could not tell the difference personality wise. Both were sweet and friendly. I believe that the anesthesia is a bigger concern for squirrels. My feeling is still a darling, cutie, nonreleaseable squirrel. :Love_Icon

Marty, Licensed Maryland Master Wildlife Rehabilitator

[LiLTreeRat]

I will try to get a video uploaded over the weekend. 000000000000000.....(Sorry..Trooper jumped on the keyboard)...:D

I think you guys have helped me decide that neutering is pretty much not necessary as far as squirrels go anyway. Thanks for that....I'm not really a big fan of a small animal under anesthesia anyway. :shakehead.

Sounds like I may have a forever friend on my hands...thats perfectly fine, but I still have hopes of future improvement and possible release....guess only time will tell. You all have been great help, and I will certainly be taking advantage of that on a regular basis I'm sure! :)

Hopefully Troopers's video debut will be posted soon! :jump

[LiLTreeRat]

Hey, I just graduated from "Junior Member" to "Member" !! Yea me! :thumbsup LOL ! :wott
:multi :jump :wahoo :crazy :)

[Tickle's Mom]

YAY YOU!!!!!!:wahoo :wahoo :wahoo :wahoo :wahoo

I have a NR, my first and only squirrel, thus far :D

They are so worth the time they require - Trooper does sound like a keeper, for his own safety. :grouphug

[UDoWhat]

:jump A real live member of TSB, you rock! :rotfl An official "member" of the nut house , no less ! :wahoo

Marty