Symptoms of metabolic bone disease???

[gingchamp]

Can someone please tell me the symptoms of metabolic bone disease?? My Rosie is very sick and I have no idea what it could be!! She's very lethargic, droopy eyed, and has little interest in eating!! Please help!:dono

[Scooterzmom]

I just sent a PM. Hopefully someone will be here soon to help you.

I'm not an expert at MBD but at least I can recommend that you provide something soft and warm to lie on. It's a bit like people with severe arthritis, their bones hurt very badly and the warmth helps to relieve some of the pain at least.

What does her diet consist of usually? How old is Rosie? How long has she been this way?

Do you have any Tums or calcium pills handy?

I'm not sure of the dosage you'd ned but I know that if it's MBD they'll ask you to provide some calcium, so you might as well check to see what you have handy.

[Mrs Skul]

:wave123 Hi GingChamp
Can you tell me what the diet consist of? How long has she been feeling bad? When did she eat last?
Do you have some tums antacids, or Calcium powder?
What kind of a squirrel do you have?

[gingchamp]

Rosie is about 16 months old. Her diet consists of a variety of nuts (Both store bought and ones I collect in the wild) and plenty of veggies like avocado,yams, green beans, frozen peas,broccoli,and some fruits (she prefers veggies).She also has several types of calcium blocks and a mineral/salt wheel. She started acting lethargic about 3 days ago. Today she really has me worried.

[gs1]

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17677



Emergency Treatment for Metabolic Bone Disease (updated 3-31-09)

Get calcium into the squirrel IMMEDIATELY, not later, not tomorrow, NOW. Delaying treatment can cause death or permanent paralysis.

You will need:

--Tums or calcium pills (any kind)
--a syringe, eyedropper, or spoon

Crush one Tums or calcium pill and add a little water or fruit juice. Use the syringe, eyedropper, or spoon to force-feed the mixture, a little at a time, until it is all gone. Feed a total of 600-800 mg of calcium, and spread it out through the day and night to keep his blood calcium levels as steady as possible.

If the squirrel is having seizures, weakness, or paralysis, the symptoms will usually improve within a few hours, but this does not mean the squirrel is cured. It will take many months to rebuild the calcium in the bones.Long-Term Treatment for MBD

The next step to curing MBD is to fix the diet.

1. Remove ALL seeds, nuts, corn, and treats.

2. Follow the Healthy Diet For Pet Squirrels, which can be found at the top of the “Squirrel Nutrition” forum. (http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=16093) Your squirrel MUST eat rodent block or squirrel blocks every day. If your squirrel doesn't like rodent blocks, you can try crushing them up with peanut butter or avocado temporarily. You can also make a tastier version of squirrel blocks using the recipe at the top of the Squirrel Nutrition forum.

3. In addition to the Healthy Diet, you will need to continue giving extra calcium every day for several weeks. Either use the syringe/eyedropper or you can try putting the calcium on a small piece of fruit.

Week 1: calcium = 500 mg per day
Week 2: calcium = 250 mg per day
Weeks 3-8: calcium = 100 mg per day

The cause of the acute symptoms—weakness, lethargy, seizures, paralysis—is a drop in blood calcium levels. If these symptoms return at any time, you will need to give another emergency dose of calcium.

More Tips
MBD causes brittle bones that break easily. Try to keep your squirrel away from high places, where he might jump and break a bone. Also, if he is in a tall cage, either place him in a smaller cage, or pad the bottom very well.

Heat is very soothing for a squirrel with MBD. A heating pad turned to low and placed so they cannot chew the pad or cord, or a rice buddy (a sock filled with dry rice/beans and microwaved for about 20 seconds) will work.

[gs1]

Rosie is about 16 months old. Her diet consists of a variety of nuts (Both store bought and ones I collect in the wild) and plenty of veggies like avocado,yams, green beans, frozen peas,broccoli,and some fruits (she prefers veggies).She also has several types of calcium blocks and a mineral/salt wheel. She started acting lethargic about 3 days ago. Today she really has me worried.


mbd is usually the first thought because it is so easy for the squirrel to get.

in order for them to digest nuts etc... calcium is leached from their bones.... (4skwerlz has a better explanation)

if the squirrel isn't getting enough calcium mixed with the proper combination of phosphorus etc... it is still not getting enough calcium to their bones...

squirrel diets are really, really hard....

if you start the mbd treatment with the calcium tablets... it won't hurt her...

how is her peeing/pooping etc...

what happened the last week... anything sprayed...did she get into any kind of poisons... did she chew something that might have been toxic etc...

where are you ..nearest city etc... if in case we have rehabbers nearby that can help you.....

[Mrs Skul]

What formula did you raise her on? Is she a handicap Squirrel? Does she eat the calcium? You said 3 days. Did she Throw up? Is she still peeing and poohing? Could any of the nuts have been moldy? Do you peal the avocado? Could she have gotten into something Poisonous? Do you feed any kind os Rodent block, or Squirrel block?

[gs1]

formula like fox valley and full fat danone yogurt is good for calcium too....

but again ... talk to 4skwerlz ..and other experienced rehabbers.... mrs skul too is excellent... she's dyslexic but she's great over the phone... (well she's great anywhere....:D )

[Scooterzmom]

what kind of rodent block does she get? The kind you find at pet stores for rats and mice? If so, that may not have enough calcium/nutrients in there for her... therefore you may be looking at MBD.

Does she get branches, plants for outside? Anything that could possibly have had toxins on it? Things that come from outside "might" have toxins which could cause a kind of poisoning... which would cause the lethargy and weakness too. You menttioned nuts from outside... I'd be worried about those, sometimes they can be moldy and we can't see that. I would remove those immediately as a precaution.

I'm not an expert on their illnesses, am only throwing out ideas as to the possible causes of her feeling so bad. :( I hope others can help you better... :dono

Keeping you and sweet Rosie in my prayers, hoping she makes a prompt recovery.

[gingchamp]

I think I might know the cause of the MBD!!! My husband has been feeding her nuts continuosly throughout the days recently!! Ive told him to stop because shes no longer wanting her veggies!! I happened to buy a bottle of tums today. Going to give her the tums/water mixture immediatly!!

[Mrs Skul]

Take a 2plain tums and dissolve in 1 cc of water. About 1 TBS water. Do you know the milligrams of the tums? Do you have a syringe? You can also make a past and rub on her gums. Do you have and maple syrup or Molasses? You can rub that on the gums and start giving the tums water.

PS Make sure the tums don't have and extra vitamin in it.

[gingchamp]

Okay that did not go well. she threw a fit and i think more of mix ended up on her rather than in her. could i crush a tums and mix it with peanut butter or something???

[Mrs Skul]

GingChamp
If it is MBD after giving the tums mixture you will notice a real big difference. I am going to go ahead and post a few cites for you. This is something you will need to order/buy for her diet. We try to keep offering Baby Formula to all Captive Squirrels and Flying Squirrels. This is a extra boost to there system if she does not eat her veg every day. I will post the nutrition for you to read later on. This will help keep her diet straight. You need to only give Yams /Sweet potatoes a few times a month. There is a lot of sugar in them. Also 1 piece Fruit a day.

[gs1]

I think I might know the cause of the MBD!!! My husband has been feeding her nuts continuosly throughout the days recently!! Ive told him to stop because shes no longer wanting her veggies!! I happened to buy a bottle of tums today. Going to give her the tums/water mixture immediatly!!


a couple of days probably wouldn't hurt unless she's been borderline for a while...and to be honest ... preventing mbd in squirrels is so hard.. it's almost impossible unless you see them eating their blocks... and not stashing (and stashing will create mold at least in hhbs which are my favourites - no preservatives etc... anyway this is all longterm.)

anyway ... it's very possible mbd but it doesn't mean that we also stop looking at other things....

:grouphug

[gs1]

Okay that did not go well. she threw a fit and i think more of mix ended up on her rather than in her. could i crush a tums and mix it with peanut butter or something???

mrs skul just posted about molasses or maple syrup.... it's not easy... i know... maybe a paste would be easier so you don't get liquid in her lungs...:grouphug

edit: yes ... smooth peanut butter mixed with something? oil??? i don't know... you dont want to choke her either .. peanut butter on the roof of her mouth etc... but would the calcium be absorbed....

omg ... i don't know.... maybe not.... not peanut butter... not a nut butter ... but what about applesauce? ... sweet yogurt? ...

[Mrs Skul]

Just hand her a tums and see if she will eat it. You can mix it with applesauce, or a sm amount or Peanut butter. But you will have to keep offering her some water. That is going to keep her hydrated and help move the calcium along.

[gs1]

edit again.. listen to mrs skul...not me....... she knows what she's doing...

goodnight... hope to find good news in the morning..will be thinking of you....

:grouphug

[gingchamp]

I handed her a tums....and she started eating it!! very surprised and relieved!! did i read that i need to still be giving her formula?? esbilac puppy formula was what i had her on as a baby

[Mrs Skul]

Gingchamp we have a Bad T storm going on right now. If you notice the Green feet by my name disappear. Please don't worry. I will try calling in some help until I get back on. Did she take the tums when you offered it to her? Did you try the tums past?

[Mrs Skul]

No Esbilac right now. Just offer her as much water as she will drink with the Tums. Do you Know the Milligrams of the tums?

PS On the can of Esbilac is there a golden retriever on it? Is there a white puppy.

[gingchamp]

one tablet is 750 miligrams

[gingchamp]

on the esbilac i believe is a golden retriever puppy

[Mrs Skul]

Hear is a few site you can visit later when things settle down. You have to get her Started on either Henry's Healthy Blocks. Or A Rodent Block for Rats.:D The Henry's is made just for Squirrels This is a complete diet, as long as you feed a Healthy Vegetable and Leafy green diet. Tell your HB.:nono NO MORE NUTS!!! :D :poke """My Squirrels would boycott and hold this computer hostage, if I stopped giving nuts.""":rotfl Just a nut a day as a treat. I will give a whole nut for them to open. After the Vegatables have been eaten.
http://henryspets.com
http://foxvalleynutrition.com/main/prod.asp
http://www.squirrelsandmore.com/

[gingchamp]

Thank you so much for all your info! This is a wonderful forum with amazing people! Im so happy to know that there are other people out there just like myself! Most people I know think Im crazy for loving and caring so much about squirrels!:thankyou

[Mrs Skul]

Esbilac has changed the formula. The Golden Retriever is still the old formula. That is good. Go ahead and mix up a small amount and see if she will take some. We Recommend FoxVally. What a lot of members do is mix it into some yogurt. This needs to be a full fat yogurt. (The one recommend is YoBaby Vanilla Yogurt, made by SpringVally.)1TBS formula to 1/12 TBS of Full fat yogurt. This can be added on the side of the Veg dish. You can put it in a bottle cape, or offer it as a treat through a syringe. You have my number Call me tomorrow I will explain. If you would like, PM a phone number for me to call you. It will not cost you anything. I don't mind helping you out with all of this in the weeks to come.

How is your Little girl doing? Did she eat the whole Tums? Did you find out what the MG were on the Tums? If she finished the Tums offer her some water. You can also offer her half a Tums. If she does not eat it. That is fine.

[Mrs Skul]

:rotfl NUTS NUTS That is what we all are here at TSB!:D
By the way Welcome to the Squirrel Board.:Welcome
I know you will be right at home hear. When you get a chance check out some of the cites. Nutrition being one of the first one to read. There is a lot of wonderful information available. There are a lot of Rehabbers and License Rehabbers with good advice.
You just have to be patient and read through the information. Loads of help!
Now What is your Squirrels name? What kind is she? :dono Tomorrow we will find if someone who is up close to you that can help if you ever need it. Don't worry No one will try taking your baby Girl away from you. We don't work that way hear.:nono
We just try to guide you in the right direction of Nutrition and when you need help we offer it. Even in Illegal states.


PS
YoBaby is made by StonyField. It is a organic yogurt.

[Mrs Skul]

GingChamp How is your Little Girl doing? :dono She should be showing a little improvement. Is she drinking any water?

[Mrs Skul]

GingChamp
I need to go feed my babies and a critical Flying Squirrel. I will leave the computer on. I will check back in about 30 min.
If you need anything just post the question. I will be back shortly. :thumbsup3 If you need to get off. Just post that is what you are going to do. :thinking
I will alert a few other Senior Rehabbers, that you will be checking in tomorrow.
Please If your Squirrel starts feeling much better. DON"T Leave. Keep posting updates for a few weeks. She is not out of the woods.
This is just a band aid over the problem right now.
Hang tight, be back in 30 min. :wave123
Christal

[Ellymae]

Just saw this thread. Is it okay to give Tums smoothies 750 mg peppermint flavored to a squirrel?:thinking

[mugzeezma]

Just saw this thread. Is it okay to give Tums smoothies 750 mg peppermint flavored to a squirrel?:thinking
750mg calcium carbonate
Actually you need to look at the ingredients for ELEMENTAL calcium...I believe that ends up being 320mg 10mg magnesium

You will need to give her a couple tablets a day...I find thye like the berry flavor.
I have no idea what the reaction will be to peppermint. I've offered starlight mints just to see the reastion and they always turned their noses up at it.
I guess it depends on the squirrel.

[jo_schmoe]

Just saw this thread. Is it okay to give Tums smoothies 750 mg peppermint flavored to a squirrel?:thinking
Yes its fine to give them the peppermint flavored Tums. I give mine one or two a week just to chew on. They LOVE them. Just not sure about the smoothie kind. I use the plain ole regular.

[jo_schmoe]

Ok, just read the entire thread....please cut out the nuts if someone hasn't told you. Don't worry....she may be mad at you....but it will save her life and she will forgive you.
Please keep us updated....she sounds like a real sweetheart!:Love_Icon

[squirrelington]

there seems to be a litteral sea of information out there regarding mbd in squirrels sometimes the whole calcium vs phosphorus thing gets confusing to me for instance i have a beautiful boy he is roughly 9 or 10 years of age and up until 2 weeks ago was acting normal and doing squirrel things just like any normal pet squirrel would but lately he has become lethargic and dose not have his normal appetite he is also sleeping much more and is not drinking his water as much as before over the years i have included plenty of fresh vegies and plenty of nuts in his diet and have also supplemented with additional calcium from time to time although not regularly i recently found out from this web site that nuts are not the best for pet squirrels hats off to all of you for your labor of love also he has not had too much acsess to unfiltered sunlight but i have provided him with uv lights in the past two days i have been giving him concentrated doses of calcium carbonate with vitamin d my first instinct for fear of loosing him mostly was to start mega dosing him with calcium ihave refrained from doing that however because i understand that more is not always better i have heard that hhb's are a good diet option but i have also heard that they contain ultra high levels of nutrients plus added whey protien which can cause kidney failure i have not noticed a change in energy levels in the two days of oral calcium doses and i am wondering is more necessary? i have talked to some of the rehabbers in the tampa bay area but they tend to disagree as to the proper treatment regimen other than to say calcium-calcium-calcium i live and work in tampa and i think the world of these rehabbers but more input is always appreciated it would be great if i could meet some other people who are learned on this subject even just to get some food for thought on this website would be great for example how long before i start to see improvement in my precious little boy or should i pursue drastic intervention measures by the way his name is little boy i will try to get some pictures as soon as i figure out how to post them i am a realative newcomer to the world of computers once again i sure would appreciate any help the good folks here could provide god bless signed dazed confused and desperate in tampa fl.

[jo_schmoe]

9 to 10 years old sounds almost in the geriatric age bracket for a squirrel. Maybe she is becoming arthritic?? :dono

[island rehabber]

squirrelington, you should begin the Emergency Treatment for MBD immediately, without modification or hesitation, because it has proven to save squirrel lives over and over again!

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17677

As for the whey protein issue, I would like to see the documentation for this "causes kidney disease" thing that's going around. Recently I heard that Pet Ag took whey protein out of their Esbilac formula and the results were pretty much disastrous as far as baby squirrels were concerned. One or two HHB's per day is your adult squirrel's best insurance against MBD....it definitely sounds as if she has it now, but it's not too late to reverse it. Nuts MUST GO. Remember that in the wild, squirrels only get CERTAIN nuts at CERTAIN times of the year, for only a two or three week period.....nuts nuts nuts, all year round, is completely unnatural for a squirrel and will result in poor health and MBD.

[4skwerlz]

The whey protein rumor....This is really twisting the facts.

Where this rumor probably originates:

Theoretically, megadoses of protein can cause kidney damage. That's "excessive amounts of protein" not "recommended amounts of protein," like in rodent block.

Ironically, if you do decide to consume excessive amounts of protein, of all the various sources of protein, whey protein is the least likely to have this effect because it is the highest quality form of protein there is; there are no waste products that must be metabolized by the body.

[island rehabber]

Off topic, but I'll bet you anything that Pet Ag took out the whey protein because of COST, not health-related reasons. :shakehead

[squirrelington]

hello again everyone: just wanted to say that its day 4 now since i discovered my little boy in distress,and started emergency mbd treatment. He is doing alot better now thanks to the good advise given to me by my rehabber freinds and the good folks here at the squirrel board. I do still have some questions however,for example i am still not sure how much calcium is too much or when to start backing off. The whole how much for how long thing is a little uncertain to me.Since I began treatment he has been getting approximately 400 to 700 gms. per day of calcium plus what is added to his water which i believe is a maintnence amount along with a potassium magnesium mixture.This 300 gm. discrepency lies in the fact that when i put the calcium on or in his food he dosent always finish it all. Once again he is doing much better but i must know when to back off and to how much for daily intake any help is appreciated thanx and god bless signed: hopefull in tampa fl.