HHBs vs. Harlan Teklad?

[allie]

Morning all!

It's nuts here at work today!! I am fairly new to the TSB. Can you vary diet between HHBs and Harlan Teklad rat blocks? I have now ordered both. Jazzy is a 1yr. old female gray squirrel. She has finally decided she will eat the HHBs, but I wanted to give her some "healthy" variety. Can I vary the two on a daily basis? She also gets lots of fresh veggies, loves our "home dehydrated" veggies (as a crispy snack, not as part of her regular diet), and 1-2 nuts/day, occasional seed mixes (pumpkin, sesame, etc.) as treats....
thx!
:thinking

[Pierre]

HHB's are like a multi-vitamin / food and should be given in a "dose" per day, meaning, you should give 2 blocks per day only. Then feed the rest of the day healthy foods. They have a 4:1 ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus per block, which was designed to make up for less calcium in other foods, but if given too many per day could result in too high of calcium levels.

Harlan Teklads are a complete food and you could feed as many as you like per day, along with healthy foods. These are best given through momma2boos "Boo Ball" recipe as squirrels love these and don't really like the taste of the block plain. Search for "Boo Balls" in the Nutrition section.

:thumbsup

[mugzeezma]

HHB's are like a multi-vitamin / food and should be given in a "dose" per day, meaning, you should give 2 blocks per day only. Then feed the rest of the day healthy foods. They have a 4:1 ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus per block, which was designed to make up for less calcium in other foods, but if given too many per day could result in too high of calcium levels.

Harlan Teklads are a complete food and you could feed as many as you like per day, along with healthy foods. These are best given through momma2boos "Boo Ball" recipe as squirrels love these and don't really like the taste of the block plain. Search for "Boo Balls" in the Nutrition section.

:thumbsup
HHBs and rat block?:thumbsup

rotate all of it I say...they get bored and can get picky eating one thing all of the time. Squirrels were made to be opportunistic feeders.

At 1 year Jazzy can have what we call a BooBall variation (BBV)without the formula added or with LESS formula added.
You can also grind the block and add nutmeats...about 2tsp nuts per 1/2 cup of ground block...mix with a 4oz of apple sauce or ALL fruit babyfood.

[gs1]

wow 4skwerlz :thumbsup maybe that should be a sticky....:D

um ...could admin move this to nutrition? ... my ocd is itching....:D

[island rehabber]

This thread most definitely should be in the Nutrition Forum, where more folks will see it. Good info, everyone. Thanks gs1 -- was heading up to my release site and you caught me almost out the door :D

[Pierre]

Pierre is right that HHBs are "dosed" rather than feed freely as 80-100% of the diet. Not quite a vitamin pill, more like an Ensure or one of those "nutrition bars" you get at the health food store.

Just to clarify a few other things:

HHBs were formulated to work with the Healthy Diet, so the phosphorus is lower to make room for the high-phosphorus foods in the rest of the diet. If HHBs had a 2:1 ratio, you'd have to watch the calc/phos ratio in the rest of their diet like a hawk. As it is, you really don't have to worry about that.

I also want to try to put something else in context: What it means when we say "Two HHBs per day provide 100% of minimum requirements for nutrients."

1. "Minimum requirements" means, "feed less than this, and animals will begin to show symptoms of deficiency."

2. "Optimum amounts for health" are higher for many nutrients. At these levels you'd see above-average growth, energy, fur condition, etc.

3. "Upper tolerance levels" are in most cases many times higher than min reqs. For many nutrients, like calcium, there is no toxic level per se, and it's mostly a matter of balance with other nutrients.

This is how NRLA describes their requirements:

"No margin of safety"; most rodent blocks include large safety margins for many nutrients (up to 400-500%), to ensure that after storage and nutrient degradation, there will be adequate amounts of nutrients remaining. The NRLA requirements do not include this; it is up to the manufacturer. HHBs do not include this margin of safety either; all nutrients are close to 100%.

What I'm trying to get across is: the NRLA minimum requirements represent very conservative levels of nutrients. In fact, my main concern about HHBs initially was that the nutrient levels were too low.... Where it was most clearly demonstrated in the research that higher levels of certain nutrients were beneficial (e.g., Zinc and Vit E) we did include slightly higher levels, though still conservative.

For some nutrients, the concepts of "deficiency" and "overdose" become almost meaningless; what's important is the balance between levels of nutrients. For example, in an animal consuming the required amount of calcium, you can induce calcium deficiency simply by increasing the phosphorus. So is this a "calcium deficiency" or a "phosphorus overdose"? It's all about balance.

As long as the nutrients are in balance, including the required fat and protein, it is almost impossible to overdose. Vitamin pills, yes, you could take a bottle-full and overdose. But an Ensure or one of those meal replacement nutrient bars; they're filling.

I discussed this with Dr. Calvert early on, asking whether we needed to scale the number of HHBs fed according to the size of the squirrel, pointing out that body sizes range from less than a pound up to 3-4 pounds for a foxer. His quick reply was: "No, the squirrel will eat to meet his energy requirements." In other words, if the squirrel's weight is good--not too fat--that means he is meeting (not exceeding) his energy requirements, and since the fat/protein/vits/mins are in balance, he is almost certainly meeting (not exceeding) his other requirements as well.

Anyhow, glad you brought this up, Pierre. Sorry for the long reply, and I hope this helps folks understand some of the theory behind HHBs.
:wave123

Thanks 4S! :goodpost

[Rhapsody]

I use both of them with my squirrels and they love them both...... I personally feel that HHB & HT are the BEST BLOCKS out there for Squirels. :thumbsup :thumbsup
... I feed HHB in the morning and HT #2018 in the Evening.

[island rehabber]

I use both of them with my squirrels and they love them both...... I personally feel that HHB & HT are the BEST BLOCKS out there for Squirels. :thumbsup :thumbsup
... I feed HHB in the morning and HT #2018 in the Evening.

Mine never seem to like the HT 2018 :dono. I offer a steady supply of Mazuri monkey biscuits (cut in half) and KayTee Rat & Mouse blocks besides their proper allotment of HHB's (one a day for the littlest ones and 2 a day for the big kids. ) Anyone who has known me for five minutes knows that I don't shake, bake, mix, fix, or measure ANYthing more complex than "1:2 parts Fox Valley to water ":rotfl. It's gotta come springing from a BAG, ready to go! :D.

[Milo's Mom]

Anyone who has known me for five minutes knows that I don't shake, bake, mix, fix, or measure ANYthing more complex than "1:2 parts Fox Valley to water ":rotfl. It's gotta come springing from a BAG, ready to go! :D.

Sorry, gotta thread jack here... IR I just laughed so hard I fell off the chair, which only made me laugh harder. Gosh I hope the rest of today goes just as well. (I have to bake and decorate my sister's birthday cake today)

:rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

[Jackie in Tampa]

I feed HHBs and veggies, I also offer FV. I also allow nuts...

I do not deviate.
Switching around means they can pick and chose...not ideal!
One day they can have junk food and the next day not...
NO!
I have several NRs, and I KNOW what looks good on my sqs and what keeps them rolling and playing...:peace

I do not guess, I feed confidently.
HHBs have stopped seizures...what else can I say?
What else needs to be said!!!!:thumbsup

[Pierre]

:

[mugzeezma]

I just can't get my boy to eat them....:shakehead Wish he would. It would be easier. He loves and eats a lot of Boo Balls per day. Oh well.

Do what works...
There is a place for everything...
Variety is the spice of life...

can't think of anymore cliches:thinking

[Jackie in Tampa]

I just can't get my boy to eat them....:shakehead Wish he would. It would be easier. He loves and eats a lot of Boo Balls per day. Oh well.
I am anxious to see what the booball analysis shows...
if healthy, I will try feeding them...
but I have a feeling just from learning so much about nutrition and how things process and metabolize...that my sqs will only be getting HHBs...
thankfully they are healthy and liked!:thumbsup

[island rehabber]

I was scared of the Kay-Tee blocks because, well, they're "pet store crap". But then 4skwerlz did an analysis and said, you know, they ain't that bad! They actually stack up better nutritionally than some of the lab blocks, I think. Great, because I can run out and buy a bag at Petco when I'm waiting for Mazuri's or HHB's to arrive by mail. (I can't get the Mazuri's in any store around here, either....I hate this thinking ahead nonsense....why should I have to think ahead? I'm a GEMINI! :rotfl:shakehead)

[mugzeezma]

I was scared of the Kay-Tee blocks because, well, they're "pet store crap". But then 4skwerlz did an analysis and said, you know, they ain't that bad! They actually stack up better nutritionally than some of the lab blocks, I think. Great, because I can run out and buy a bag at Petco when I'm waiting for Mazuri's or HHB's to arrive by mail. (I can't get the Mazuri's in any store around here, either....I hate this thinking ahead nonsense....why should I have to think ahead? I'm a GEMINI! :rotfl:shakehead)

I've BEEN using the KayTee FortiDiet PROHEALTH...you need to make the distinction between the blue bag and the green bag of lesser quality.
Oxbow is a top notch feed as well but has fish meal (???). Some will say a hearty NO THANKS to that.
KT PH has probiotics and omega3 added that other feeds do not.

[Jackie in Tampa]

I think...
mazurri has meat products in the rat blocks...
who knows how long that meat made yuck sits in a warehouse...
yes kaytee is veggie I think...

I , on the motherhand {get it, hehe} , have for 9years been looking to find something stable and true to feed...
I will not argue, but saying I HAVE LOOKED FOR 9YEARS, must mean something...
I have handled more sqs than most on TSB...I need to sleep... and knowing and after seeing what I have,....

I love my sqs and I do not feed corn seed coz I know it is bad...and I feed HHBs coz I know they are good...easy peasy...
:D

[mugzeezma]

I have used HHBs or the recipe
but
I prefer something I can pick up off the shelf

[allie]

WOW!!!!!

All I thought to do was ask a simple question about HHBs vs. HT!! You people are so very awesome and thorough in answering any type of question. I am humbled by the love and care you offer your "babies." I am a new squirrel mom, only since one of our barn cats was playing with it almost a year ago now. But I am thrilled to be a squirrel mom....Had planned to release Jazzy after I felt pretty sure she hadn't suffered any real damage from the kitten. .. ( a real huntress...) On afterthought, we have lots of foxes, coyotes, etc. around, and I couldn't bear for her to be a "statistic."

Thanks so much for all the info, I am on this board first thing most mornings to get more "learnin...!!"

[momma2boo]

My Boo was 6 when he died from complications from an abscessed incisor. Up until then he ate a version of the Boo Ball. The original Boo Ball used Kaytee Forti Diet Pro Health. I switched to Harlan Teklad because it doesn't have alfalfa in it but I am not so sure that the exchange of alfalfa for soy is such a great trade out. The jury (my jury) is still out on this one. Research says that alfalfa can cause tumors in rats but squirrels are not rats .... so? Now research is coming out on soy that has me rethinking the Kaytee Forti Diet.

I just don't know. There just isn't any research on our beloved squirrel. We are almost feeding them blindly. Squirrels are not rats and the NRLA is the closest thing we all have to go on. Unfortunately the NRLA refers to rats not squirrels. We do what we think in our hearts is best for the fuzzers we love so much and hope we have it right. It is trial and error. As long as we learn from the errors and not repeat them then we are moving in the right direction, right?

[island rehabber]

I've BEEN using the KayTee FortiDiet PROHEALTH...you need to make the distinction between the blue bag and the green bag of lesser quality.
Oxbow is a top notch feed as well but has fish meal (???). Some will say a hearty NO THANKS to that.
KT PH has probiotics and omega3 added that other feeds do not.

Yup, got the blue ProHealth bag. :thumbsup As for Oxbow, I know it;s good quality but most squirrels don't like it. Tomo bought a 100lb bag once, and probably still has 99.8lbs of it :shakehead.

[CritterMom]

Yup, got the blue ProHealth bag. :thumbsup As for Oxbow, I know it;s good quality but most squirrels don't like it. Tomo bought a 100lb bag once, and probably still has 99.8lbs of it :shakehead.


Oxbow used to be strongly flavored and scented with green apple - you can still smell it a little...but they changed the formulation and it turns out that what everybody LIKED was the green apple flavoring, which is all but gone now. P won't even eat Boo balls made with the Oxbow - had to feed them to my wilds, who are easy.:thumbsup Too bad - it is a really good food.

I don't care much for the Mazuri you get in pet stores - it has an ungodly amount of protein - like 24-25% which is really high. Their breeder formula is lower but only available in 50 pound bags. It is what I use to feed my wilds but P laughed hysterically at me when I offered it to him (doesn't cost enough I guess).

[mugzeezma]

Yup, got the blue ProHealth bag. :thumbsup As for Oxbow, I know it;s good quality but most squirrels don't like it. Tomo bought a 100lb bag once, and probably still has 99.8lbs of it :shakehead.

Oxbow works if you just toss it in there for noms...I mix it into the BBV milieu.

Honestly, I think a squirrel will ANYTHING if you grind a wee bit of nut into it.

Nuts are squirrel crack and need to be used very sparingly.

[island rehabber]

Know what? With the exception of what's ground up in HHB's, Luther, Alba, Vera, Siobhan, Meriel, Kiara and Smokey have never had a nut in their lives. Not one. That's why they eat their blocks. :thumbsup I am still learning. :D

[scoobysnack]

Scooby gets nuts only every once in awhile. Not daily, sometimes not even weekly. She is a great eater. She will eat her monkey chow every day. I also tend to "make" her eat it. She has to eat some before she gets more fruit and veggies. If she has an empty plate except for a piece of chow on there, she does NOT get refilled! LOL

[mugzeezma]

Scooby gets nuts only every once in awhile. Not daily, sometimes not even weekly. She is a great eater. She will eat her monkey chow every day. I also tend to "make" her eat it. She has to eat some before she gets more fruit and veggies. If she has an empty plate except for a piece of chow on there, she does NOT get refilled! LOL

:rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

[Pierre]

Grayson :Love_Icon has to eat all his Boo Balls in the morning before he gets other stuff. He eats about a good tablespoon of them. He gets veges, fruit, and a nut or two per day after the Boo Balls. He's 10 months old now and his coat is thick and soft, and his tail is nice and bushy. :D I think HHBs are great too.

[Pierre]

.

[mugzeezma]

.

LOL
period?

[Pierre]

Hahaha. It was a mistake but wouldn't let me delete it!
Sorry.....
:jump