scared of bloat

[Wonkawillie]

OK, so I lost my tiny pinkie to bloat this morning. I did everything possible including the simethicone drops. The other two sibling have been doing well, but I am worried that they are also bloating. I just took this picture of them. They had a small bit of FV at 11am. Like .3 cc each, now right before this picture they both had .3 cc of pedialite at 3 pm. Four hours after the FV at 11am. I wanted them to go a bit longer as it seemed they were not digesting too well. Do they look bloated? I am a bit freaked out. I am NOT happy with FV. I have used Esbilac on all my other squirrels and never had any trouble, now I may lose all of these to bloat? I never had bloat before. I think it is the FV. I have even been giving the FV made 3:1, to try and help them digest. Not sure what to do.

[Nancy in New York]

I would switch them to Jackie's Goats Milk Recipe for now and I can't believe that I am even suggesting this, but I would give them canned goats milk esbilac that you can buy in petsmart. Before the problems with esbilac, I always used goats milk esbilac with no problems. I added multi milk to that too. If you go with the goats milk esbilac I would either give them some ulta boost with it or a little heavy cream.
Here's Jackies recipe, but this is not for use for the duration of time, just something to get the babies through until a formula is gotten.

Goats milk is easier to digest.


Jackle's Recipe
1 cup goats milk
1/3 cup heavy cream
1/3 cup dannon all natural vanilla yogurt


Just a little resizinghttp://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/Babies%202010/squirrel20111.jpg

[Wonkawillie]

Well, How do you keep that much fresh, for long? I think they would be 6 weeks old before I could use this up? Is there a secret?
I finally got some weights on them. I searched my house for my food scale. they are exactly 25 grams each. JUST how much should they be eating? MAYBE I have been giving them too much food? The most one baby ever ate at one time was, like .9 cc. Maybe I should make sure they only eat like .4, each time? I have always judged by how full they looked, but maybe it needs to be more accurate with pinkies? By the way, thier weight has to be double than when I found them, as they are twice as big in three days. I bet they were 12 grams when I found them. They still had a black dot belly button and no grey to the skin where fur is thinking of growing. How many pedialite feedings can they safely have to clear them out, without getting them weak from no food????
So much info for such tiny kids.

[pappy1264]

I resized the pic, as it was very hard to see. Are they that color or is the the camera? The one on the left looks a little round, but it is hard to tell from this pic. (you beat me to it, Nancy...lol)

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

I'd go with half of Jackie's recipe and half fox valley if I were you. You can use the powdered

I'd be careful with goats milk esbilac. When the issues with Esbilac were first discovered and we weren't exactly sure what was up I had 12 eyes closed squirrels that were having issues with weight gain and diarrhea and I tried the goats milk esbilac and it didn't help their issues at all. It would probably clear these guy's systems out though :tilt. The thing that finally worked was switching to zoologic 33/40 mixed with fox valley.

It's a pain to have to mix two types of formula to get something that works, but if you have both ready to go it only takes a second.

Sorry to hear you lost your little tyke :grouphug

[Wonkawillie]

OK, if my husband catches me on the computer again, he is going to freak. Funny I got the best pictures with the crappy camera on my phone. I Just took these. This is now an hour and a half after .3 pedilate. I am so exhausted. I thought I had the best formula on the market!!! I have some old powdered esbilac from before the problems. I raised a squirrel last year on this with ease. I had it in the fridge. Do I dare feed it? I simply do not know what is right any more. I only have a small amount of the esbilac on hand. Attaching photos. The babies show the real color this time. let me know what you think.

[Wonkawillie]

Pics135880

[Wonkawillie]

see that band of white in the boys belly? It looks like a milkline, but it is a bit firm.

[Wonkawillie]

and no poop in almost 3 hours.

[mugzeezma]

I will confirm the goatsmilk recipe for tiny pinks like this under 3weeks.
They don't do well on FV OR Esbilac...this info comes from a very experienced rehabber.
Yes that is the milk line but he doesn't look bloated to me.

[Wonkawillie]

OK mugzeema, so ditch the FV for now and do the goat milk recipie? How long can they be on that goat milk formula? Then can I switch back to FV, as it is easy to mix up.

[mugzeezma]

OK mugzeema, so ditch the FV for now and do the goat milk recipie? How long can they be on that goat milk formula? Then can I switch back to FV, as it is easy to mix up.
Switch over in 4 feedings just to keep things running smoothly. When you start seeing them gaining weight and thriving in a week or two switch them to FV.
Yes a hassle but I don't know that cows milk proteins are easily digested by such tiny babes. Some have no problem with it.

[pappy1264]

I see the line, but they don't look bloated to me. If you have only been doing pedialyte, you may not see poop. I know your fear, I am in the same boat, dealing with a pinkie. Your two weigh the same as my little one. I am feeding 1 cc fv full stregnth (added heavy cream in today), and she is eating every 2.5-3 hours. I don't have any experience w/the goats milk, but others with more pinkie experience would know. Sending prayers....I know you have already suffered enough loss and I know how much these little ones grab ahold of your heart.

[UDoWhat]

You asked how much they should be eating. When I first get pinkies in I stay at or below 5% for a few days because these babies are not used to getting 5% in their tummies all at once. They nurse, snuggle, sleep, nurse, snuggle, sleep at will. They mostly refuse in the beginning to eat the entire 5%. After a few days they work up to more ccs at a feeding. As long as they are gaining weight I don't worry if they take a little less at first. At 25 grams 5% would be about 1.25cc. With the problems these little one's are having I wouldn't go over about .8cc unless they seem starving or not gaining weight. Pinkies can be tricky especially if they suffered from hypothermia long. Even after days in your care. Sorry you lost teeny one. He was loved and lucky to have you care for him. :Love_Icon

Marty

[Wonkawillie]

mugzeezma, I am confused, Do you sugest me give them straight goats milk formula, or mix it with FV? I have not slept much, and I just got back from running to two food stores. When I got home, I made the goat milk formula and gave it to them as soon as I got home. I only allowed them .5 cc. They went crazy for it! and are sleeping contently. But now I read the posts here and I think you mean to give them half goat milk formula and half FV. Spell it out for me please. What mix for how long and switch to what and how and when? So many things coming at me, I am and mixed up.
You want me to switch back to 100% FV when it caused them so much trouble?
Help135892

[Nancy in New York]

I believe what Mugzi means is that for the next four feedings you mix half of the goats milk formula with half of the FV, (the way that you have been making the FV: meaning water to formula ratio). The transition to the goats milk shouldn't upset their tummy too much if you mix these two formulas together only for 4 feedings. Then go straight to the Goats Milk formula for approximately a week....then transition them back to all Fox Valley by doing the same thing, half of the goats milk formula and half FV for four feeding and then all straight FV.
There are some little ones that don't do as well on the FV, and sometimes people do see a little bloat, but I must admit, that I think yours do not look bloated to me.
BUT when they get a little bit bigger, they should be able to tolerate the FV with no problems....:thumbsup

[UDoWhat]

They don't look bloated to me either. Although I agree it is hard to tell from pics. You are doing great. :thumbsup

[mugzeezma]

mugzeezma, I am confused, Do you sugest me give them straight goats milk formula, or mix it with FV? I have not slept much, and I just got back from running to two food stores. When I got home, I made the goat milk formula and gave it to them as soon as I got home. I only allowed them .5 cc. They went crazy for it! and are sleeping contently. But now I read the posts here and I think you mean to give them half goat milk formula and half FV. Spell it out for me please. What mix for how long and switch to what and how and when? So many things coming at me, I am and mixed up.
You want me to switch back to 100% FV when it caused them so much trouble?
Help135892

Here's the recipe
from the source :D

1 tsp goats milk
1 tsp FV (premade mix)
a couple of drops infant vitamins
a dab of full fat yogurt

convert over full FV(32/40) @ 5 weeks

I add Ultraboost to the 32/40 per instructions

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

So, Mugzeesmom, you are pretty much suggesting the same thing as me. You need to mix fox valley formula with the homemade goats milk formula for babies having issues digesting.

I think pinkies did amazingly well on the old esbilac and as long as fox valley is mixed with something else (I use Zoologic 33/40 mixed with fox valley 32/40) then they have no issues.

So, I'd recommend, like I have said before, mixing the formula up 1/2 fox valley and 1/2 goats milk recipe posted by jackie in Tampa:

Jackie's Recipe
1 cup goats milk
1/3 cup heavy cream
1/3 cup dannon all natural vanilla yogurt

What I would do if I were you is mix up the recipe Jackie posted and put it in a tupperware container in the fridge. It is good for up to 72 hours (4 days).

In another container, mix up your fox valley formula, which is good for 24 hours. Keep track of how much you mix when making the fox valley and then add the appropriate amount of the goats milk formula to it from the other container to make it 1/2 and 1/2.

An example: If you use a tablespoon measure for your formula mix like this:

You have a big container of the goats milk recipe ready to go already.

In another container mix 1 tablespoon fox valley powder with 2 tablespoons of water. That gives you 3 tablespoons total.

To make your formula half fox valley and half homemade recipe, add 3 tablespoons of the premade goats milk formula you have in a separate container to the fox valley formula.

Shake it up and you have your formula for the day!

You want to mix homemade formula into fox valley formula instead of the other way around because the homemade is good for 4 days in the fridge whereas fox valley formula is only good for 24 hours after you add the water and mix it up.

Hopefully this makes sense. I know how you're feeling, I have 2 baby squirrels, 4 baby bunnies and work 20 hours a week and am taking 9 credit hours of upper level science classes. Feels like I have no time for sleeping (perhaps because I don't :rotfl), but I love taking care of the little tykes so it makes it all worth it :).

Good luck with your little tykes.

I agree that they don't look bloated in the pictures, but if it puts your mind at ease to mix their formula 1/2 and 1/2 I'd go for it. It won't hurt them any, if anything it will help their digestion, so go for it :thumbsup

[mugzeezma]

Ummm:poke SRB2
1 TBS FV powder + 2 TBS h2o = 2TBS formula
The powder goes into solution
try it
not trying to argue...just a common mistake I've made myself until I tested it.

The goats milk recipe in and of itself lacks nutrition for the long haul
It's a good temporary fix.
Use straight goats milk for that recipe
The recipe I recommended comes from Karen Clark of Lovely Lita's Sheltering Tree Foundation
Pretty straight up tried and true.
She's had a lot of success with it after many problems with Esbilac AND FV causing high mortality in her pinkies.

[Rhapsody]

I see the line, but they don't look bloated to me.
I agree........ :thumbsup
they just look well feed, full, happy and content.

[pappy1264]

Ok, I am thinking maybe I need to do this with Bean.....she has been having issues again.....I had only added the heavy cream to the fv and she has been having trouble, takes forever for the milk line to leave. Can I get goats milk at Market Basket??? (sorry to threadjack.)

[island rehabber]

My two cents? Stop adding cream & yogurt and see what happens. These are rich, and of course they are cow's milk. Some tiny babies cannot tolerate them. If anything, add the Ultra Boost made by FV....or nothing at all.
Just my two cents. :D I've raised a passel of pinkies on straight FV and never lost one because of it.

[pappy1264]

Was that to me, IR? I went back to it this morning (straight fv) and got 1 cc into her. She is up to 27 grams this morning.

[Wonkawillie]

A BIG THANK YOU to all of you wonderful people for your help and ideas. Since last night when i got home from the rushing around to find the goat milk, I gave them the straight goat milk mixture, at 6PM. I allowed only .5 to make sure they could digest it and get things rolling again. First off they LOVED the flavor with the vanilla, stonyfield full fatted french vanilla yogurt and heavy cream! I took a peep at them in 2 hours and they had digested it all, had slim bellies and were sucking on each others hands, feet, blankie, etc. There was some poop in there with them too. For the rest of the night, I fed half of this goat mixture and half of the FV mixed together. They are doing great!!!!!!!:jump
I allowed them.7 at 3 feeding through the night at 10, 2am and 5am, but I let them go a bit longer to make sure their bellies were cleared out. Now I will increase it through the day today, as they are eating, pooping and peeing well, and so wiggly that I have trouble keeping them in position for feeding!!!! I bought the powder goat milk so it will stay fresh. I mixed the goat milk according to the package and set it aside. Then I made up the goat milk mixture from that. Using one part yogurt, one part heavy cream, to three parts goat. I only use tablespoons and teaspoons to measure as I dont need cups of food for little pinkies. So now I had my goat formula set asside. Then I made FV 2;1 and mixed half and half. Darn, I feel like a pharmacist or scientist with all this measuring and calculating! BUT.........Its working.
Thanks for all your support and sugestions!!!! You are the best

[mugzeezma]

Where did you get the Powdered Goats milk?
That sounds so much more economical than the quart!!! so much goes to waste.

yup, your a kitchen food chemist now :D

[Wonkawillie]

I am lucky enough to have a Whole Foods, organic supermarket here. This is where I found it.
Oh yes, more economical. I will save what I have left of the goat milk powder, in the fridge til the end of squirrel season in the fall, then I will mix it up and drink it myself. If you like goat cheese...this stuff is tasty Ice cold! I wonder if you can get the powder online?? I just checked. They have it at vitaminshoppe.com and on Ebay!!!!!

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

I make up a homemade formula that is powdered so I can put it in the freezer and use it just like I'd use fox valley formula or zoologic formula :).

I get my powdered goat milk at vitamin shoppe. You can also buy it on amazon.

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

Ummm:poke SRB2
1 TBS FV powder + 2 TBS h2o = 2TBS formula
The powder goes into solution
try it
not trying to argue...just a common mistake I've made myself until I tested it.

The goats milk recipe in and of itself lacks nutrition for the long haul
It's a good temporary fix.
Use straight goats milk for that recipe
The recipe I recommended comes from Karen Clark of Lovely Lita's Sheltering Tree Foundation
Pretty straight up tried and true.
She's had a lot of success with it after many problems with Esbilac AND FV causing high mortality in her pinkies.


I would like to disagree :). I know the powder doesn't make it quite 3 tablespoons, but it makes it more than 2. Will have to do a little experiment next time I make formula (in about an hour :) ), I'll let you know just how much extra volume the powder adds to the 2 tablespoons of water.

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

Forgot to post the results of my formula experiment yesterday :D:

So, I added 1 tbsp. fox valley powder and to that 2 tablespoons of water (measured in a syringe to make sure I got an accurate 30 ccs.) I then mixed the contents and used the syringe to measure how much formula I now had.... 37 ccs. So, the powder takes up about half of a tablespoon. Not a full one, but for the sake of ease of measuring, it is just easier to explain to people (especially sleep deprived pinkie squirrel caretakers) that it's 3 tbsp. when mixed. You could go with 2 I guess, but that would mean the end product would be more fox valley than other formula and I like to use more of the other than fox valley. Plus, when I mix, it works out to be 50/50 because I use 1 tbsp. Zoologic 33/40, 1 tbsp. fox valley, and 4 tbsp. water, so it's half and half since both powders would take up roughly the same amount of volume in the final mixture. It's easier just not to think of the powder taking up less volume than the water, would matter in chemistry, but not so much in formula mixing :tilt

[mugzeezma]

Yes, the volume increase is nearly insignificant a that small amount .16 of the volume ... in solution
~ 1/2 tsp increase volume in 6 tsps water(2TBS).
I'd still say go with the volume of water = volume of formula unless mixing gallons ... non of us do that volume...a pint at the most

[Jackie in Tampa]

the biggest healthiest sq out side is Banana, who was raised solely on Goatsmilk formula...
she survived pox..as did all of her off spring...
she continues to have multiple litters each year, all perfectly gorgeous.

Lightfoot, Dottie and DeeDee all survived pox here and are all still alive with perfect litters...Goats milk formula


If I could afford goatsmilk, it would be my choice...
I have raised many many sq on it...all of whom are super big and great attitudes...they're babies have all been tip top sqs.
BUT IT STINKS!


IR swears by FV plain....with perfect results.

If I do not see a pink doing well, I switch them to my GMilk and I always will. I do what I feel in my gut.
Each sq will be different, just like peeps, some will have digestive tract issues and some will be well balanced, just like people.

there will always be issues, making the right formula choice will be the rehabbers experiences and decisions.

Rocky was 100% esbilac sq, he was my first!:Love_Icon

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

Yes, the volume increase is nearly insignificant a that small amount .16 of the volume ... in solution
~ 1/2 tsp increase volume in 6 tsps water(2TBS).
I'd still say go with the volume of water = volume of formula unless mixing gallons ... non of us do that volume...a pint at the most

7 ccs is about 1 and a half teaspoons (a teaspoon is 5 ccs)! So volume increase of 1 and a half teaspoons in 6 tsps. water.

2 tbsp. is 30 ccs. So, one tablespoon is 15 ccs. If the volume increase was 7 ccs when 1 tbsp. of powder was added, that means that the 15 cc measure of powder worked out to an extra 7 ccs. in solution. That's half the volume of the measure added. I'd call that significant!

16 percent of the volume added from the powder is significant because 1 tbsp. was only 33% of the volume.

No matter how you work it, the powder takes up about half as much volume as the water. You can call that not significant if you want, but it's half, so I like to just say a whole one.

[mugzeezma]

Ultimately the ONLY right way to feed a baby squirrel is a mommy squirrel...all the rest is trial and error...

You have to do what id easiest and what works for you with the least amount of switcho chango

Mugzi was a 2 pounder and raised on KMR, heavy cream, and vitamin drops :dono

[mugzeezma]

I make up a homemade formula that is powdered so I can put it in the freezer and use it just like I'd use fox valley formula or zoologic formula :).

I get my powdered goat milk at vitamin shoppe. You can also buy it on amazon.

Regardless...you mix the recipe
ONE TEASPOON Goats milk
ONE TEASPOON FV premixed

it's still teaspoon to teaspoon with some FV left over...