are my babies bloated/ are they okay?

[Skalar]

http://gallery.skalar.org/var/resizes/misc/IMG_0767.JPG?m=1297174720

His belly looks a bit big. Is this okay? They all are hungry and want to eat more and more and more.

The day I got them(tuesday), I started feeding them Esbilac (in the can) and they developed diarrhea. I quickly diluted it with 50% water, and then it has turned into a yellow runny mess or a gooey paste.. I don't think that's normal. (they're also pooing all over their nest as well)

other than that they seem happy, eager to eat and already have personalities!

Background:
I was doing tree work and a worker cut into the nest, totally destroying it and throwing 3 little babies about 30ft to the ground. one hit a junction box and got a bloody nose (he's okay now) and the other 2 were unharmed. Seeing the nest was destroyed, there was nowhere to build another nest in that tree (the palm was trimmed) I figured it was a matter of time before some animal ate the babies or the sun would cook them. So I took them in.


I really love these guys. I want to do the best I can for them, and maybe its guilt from destroying their nest.. nevertheless, I'm becoming attached.

[island rehabber]

:Welcome Skalar. Thank you for trying to save these babies.
First and foremost, don't give them anymore Esbilac for right now: give them at least two feedings of pedialyte (or homemade hydrating solution) to clean out their little systems. There are many problems with Esbilac now and my personal opinion is not to go near the stuff, EVER.
Second, depending upon where you are we have many wonderful, experienced members in Florida who may be able to take your little cuties in and give them the very best chance for survival and release back to the wild. I know you're getting attached, but raising baby squirrels is very difficult and time-consuming. Depending upon how old yours are, they may need to be fed every 3-4 hours around the clock.
The formula you'll want to feed them is by Fox Valley nutrition, only available online via their website. But hydrate the babies first, with WARMED pedialyte or hydrating solution:
1 qt warm water
3 tablespoons sugar
1 teaspoon salt

Are you willing to give them to a qualified squirrel rescuer? Please think seriously about it. :)

[Skalar]

Welcome Skalar. Thank you for trying to save these babies.
First and foremost, don't give them anymore Esbilac for right now: give them at least two feedings of pedialyte (or homemade hydrating solution) to clean out their little systems. There are many problems with Esbilac now and my personal opinion is not to go near the stuff, EVER.

I'd also like to point out that this photo was taken directly after a feeding (only time I could get the lil guy to relax) his belly is down a lot now but not gone away entirely..
and Esbilac is all I have right now.l


Second, depending upon where you are we have many wonderful, experienced members in Florida who may be able to take your little cuties in and give them the very best chance for survival and release back to the wild. I know you're getting attached, but raising baby squirrels is very difficult and time-consuming. Depending upon how old yours are, they may need to be fed every 3-4 hours around the clock.

I've been feeding them every 4 hours round the clock since I got them exactly 1 week ago.
I'm putting in the time, and I'm dedicated and determined to personally make sure these babies are going to be okay.




The formula you'll want to feed them is by Fox Valley nutrition, only available online via their website. But hydrate the babies first, with WARMED pedialyte or hydrating solution:
1 qt warm water
3 tablespoons sugar
1 teaspoon salt

Are you willing to give them to a qualified squirrel rescuer? Please think seriously about it. :)

They dont seem dehydrated to me. I've had them for over a week and they seem to be okay besides this slight bloat and the semi runny stools. I'll take your advice and feed them pedialyte this time around and see if that helps.

[Rhapsody]

I personally use Esbilac and have never had any problems with it, but I use the powder kind and only mix the formula as needed (never premix ahead of time). If you are going to keep feeding the Esbilac I would suggest that you do as suggested and stop the feedings of it for now and start with the Pedialyte for a couple of feeding to clean their little system out and give the bloat time to subside.... then you can start back up with the feedings, but this time use the Powder form of Esbilac.

BTW -
How old are the squirrels?
How much are they eating every 4 hours?

[Skalar]

alright, thanks. I've only heard good things about Esbilac for baby squirrels


I Just fed them some Pedialyte. I thought they weren't going to like it, but they drank ~1mL and then passed right out.. I made them go to the bathroom and they curled up into a ball in my hand afterwards. cute. Hopefully this does the trick

and I'll grab some of the powdered form today... Should I also get the fox valley formula just in case?

[Rhapsody]

and I'll grab some of the powdered form today... Should I also get the fox valley formula just in case?

You need some thing to fed them now so I would go ahead and get the powder form of Esbilac and I would order the Fox Valley IF that is what you are going to transition them over to and feed them in the long run (its up to you) - other wise give them a week or two and their little bodies will adjust to the Esbilac formula and the poo issue will resolve its self... this always happens with my babies.

[Nancy in New York]

Can you post a photo of the babies? I can't open the one you posted. Are you using 1 cc syringes? Do the little ones have eyes closed, do they have fur?
Personally, I would not use Esbilac ever again. You should order the Fox Valley, you can even order it here...http://henryspets.com 32/40. Leigh is also in Florida and you will get it fast. She also has 1 cc syringes. Do you have any formula left?
If you have to use the esbilac, I would buy the canned; it is the powdered that is causing terrible problems....But get them off of that and order the Fox Valley. Go to post number 19 in this thread..http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20629
OR you could use this until you get your Fox Valley.

Jackie (Jackie in Tampa) has graciously offered her temporary replacement formula recipe.
Jackie's Goat Milk Recipe
1 cup goats milk
1/3 cup heavy cream
1/3 cup dannon all natural vanilla yogurt

[Skalar]

Can you post a photo of the babies? I can't open the one you posted. Are you using 1 cc syringes? Do the little ones have eyes closed, do they have fur?

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/8742/img0763xs.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8548/img0765zs.jpg

http://gallery.skalar.org/var/resizes/misc/IMG_0763.JPG?m=1297053975
http://gallery.skalar.org/var/resizes/misc/IMG_0765.JPG?m=1297126909

the bloat
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/8145/img0767f.jpg

eyes closed, they're JUUST starting to get their fur in. No teeth I can tell yet, and their ears are unpinning, and I think they can hear now. They were esentially hairless last week. I think that puts them at around 3 weeks?

The Local feed store here had sterile 3cc Syringes. I've put a rubber nipple on them, so I can control the flow and the babies prefer the nipple as well (so they can hold onto the syringe and suckle)




Personally, I would not use Esbilac ever again. You should order the Fox Valley, you can even order it here...http://henryspets.com 32/40. Leigh is also in Florida and you will get it fast. She also has 1 cc syringes. Do you have any formula left?

I only use a little and freeze the rest immediately. I then re-warm the cubes of formula up and feed them.



If you have to use the esbilac, I would buy the canned; it is the powdered that is causing terrible problems....But get them off of that and order the Fox Valley. Go to post number 19 in this thread..http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20629
OR you could use this until you get your Fox Valley.

Jackie (Jackie in Tampa) has graciously offered her temporary replacement formula recipe.
Jackie's Goat Milk Recipe
1 cup goats milk
1/3 cup heavy cream
1/3 cup dannon all natural vanilla yogurt
[/I][/B]

I've been using the canned formula. I was using 100% until they got diarrhea..then I diluted it, which they didn't like (kept wanting more and more)

[Nancy in New York]

Just resized your pictures...

http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/Babies%202010/img0763xs.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/Babies%202010/img0765zs.jpg
http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/nancym518/Babies%202010/img0767f.jpg

They are adorable.:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon
Do you have a grams scale? How much do they eat at one feeding? Is there anyway that you can order the Fox Valley asap? What I would do is to get them OFF of the Esbilac....seriously, the ones that haven't had a problem wtih the Esbilac, in my opinion, are just lucky...last year was a nightmare for SO many rehabbers. Since you are almost out of formula...why not get the best there is? JMO, along with many others...:D In the meantime, you can use Jackie's goat milk formula.
If you pm me your address, I will get some 1 cc syringes out in the mail today along with some nipples.
Do you have them on a heating pad? Put the container they are in half on the heating pad and half off, and put the heating pad on low. Get one that does not shut off. If you have flannel, or fleece put lots of the in there, they love to burrow under. Good Luck with the babies, I am thrilled that you found us...we are all here to help you with your little gems....:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon
The little one that you are holding in the last photo, is this the one that hit something on his way down? Do you know what those tiny marks on his tummy are?

[island rehabber]

Nancy's giving you great advice, Skalar. One thing I'd like to point out is the milk line in the baby's tummy above. See that white band going across the bottom of his abdomen? When you're feeding, use that line to judge when they have had enough. The milk line should go up to the middle of the abdomen -- that's when you stop. Don't feed the baby again until the milk line vanishes or is almost gone. Hourly schedules are handy, but watching the milk line helps you to really tailor your schedule to the individual babies' needs. :thumbsup

[Skalar]

ah, thanks. I'll use that to help me. I'm always worrying if I'm overfeeding them.





[B][I]Just resized your pictures...

They are adorable.:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon
Do you have a grams scale? How much do they eat at one feeding?

Right now i"m using 5-6% of their bodyweight. and yes I have a scale. they have been gaining weight.


(and yes I've already named them. 2 boys and a girl (pinky's the girl)


2/7
Squeaky 33.7
Chipper 36.4g
Pinky 27.5g


2/8
Squeaky 34.9
Chipper 37.5
Pinky 28.2

so right now chipper would be getting 2.25mL of formula per feeding.




Is there anyway that you can order the Fox Valley asap? What I would do is to get them OFF of the Esbilac....seriously, the ones that haven't had a problem with the Esbilac, in my opinion, are just lucky...last year was a nightmare for SO many rehabbers. Since you are almost out of formula...why not get the best there is? JMO, along with many others...:D In the meantime, you can use Jackie's goat milk formula.


If you pm me your address, I will get some 1 cc syringes out in the mail today along with some nipples.


thanks, will do. I'm thinking of ordering the 20/50 formula because after shipping they will be or will be close to 4 weeks of age.




Do you have them on a heating pad? Put the container they are in half on the heating pad and half off, and put the heating pad on low. Get one that does not shut off. If you have flannel, or fleece put lots of the in there, they love to burrow under. Good Luck with the babies, I am thrilled that you found us...we are all here to help you with your little gems

I have a heating pad in there, wrapped in a blanket and I have a thermistor I can measure the temperature. Its around 102-103 degrees. and the Squirrels seem comfortable with it. They can roll off of it/ Crawl around anytime they get too hot, but they never seem to. They snuggle against it.

[Nancy in New York]

Sounds like you are doing perfect....they sure are adorable. Yes you can order the 20/50 no problem. Just stick around...we love to watch babies grow...:grouphug :thumbsup
Did you mean you have the heating pad under them...(not in with them???) Do you have them in a cardboard box? If so, you can easily put that heating pad under the box and they will get sufficient heat....I just worry if it is in with them.
Hopefully after the FV they will be gaining a little more daily...I saw someplace the average weight gain daily...I will try to find that.

[island rehabber]

Average desired weight gain for grey squirrel babies is 5-7g per day. :)

[spykitten01]

Also - please replace the cardboard box with a plastic container. If the babies wiggle under the blankies and are laying on the box, it can dry out their skin and dehydrate them. Once you have a plastic container - place the heating pad UNDER half of the container on low with a blanket or towel BETWEEN the pad and the OUTSIDE of the box. Like was already mentioned, a pad with no auto off is the best. You never want babies in direct contact with the heating pad. Also, make sure towels are never put in with the little ones, as they can get their toes/nails stuck and hurt themselves badly - Fleece is by far the best. You can usually get a few yards for a reasonable price at the local fabric store.

Personally, Esbilac almost killed my girls from diarrhea so I wouldnt recommend using it - I substituted the goats milk recipe already posted earlier until I could get the Fox Valley in and it worked very well. When the FV came they couldnt get enough and they began to THRIVE. I also gave them a course of metro to help with the diarrhea and rid their systems of any nasty bugs - their poo was very slimy and VERY smelly. I just made sure to add some all natural, unflavored, whole fat yogurt in to promote the growth of GOOD gut flora. Please get these babies on some FV ASAP, and I personally would go with the goats milk formula until it arrives. I was unable to find fresh goats milk, so I used the powder kind and it worked juuuuust dandy :)

Thank you so much for taking these little ones in and giving your all to raise them - Youve found a great resource in the kind and wonderful people here and we all just want to help you succeed!:Welcome

[Nancy in New York]

Average desired weight gain for grey squirrel babies is 5-7g per day. :)

:thankyou :thankyou :thankyou :D

[SammysMom]

Oh my goodness are they adorable! Good luck with them, it sounds like you are doing great. The experts here keep me on the right track with my baby who is now 4 months old and doing fine only because of all the support I get here at TSB! :thumbsup

[Rhapsody]

One thing I'd like to point out is the milk line in the baby's tummy above.
See that white band going across the bottom of his abdomen?
When you're feeding, use that line to judge when they have had enough.
The milk line should go up to the middle of the abdomen -- that's when you stop.

AWESOME ADVICE!! - Thats one of the first things I was told when I first came to TSB almost five years ago and I to this day I still measure my squirrels feedings by that white line and it never fails me, or the babies. :thumbsup :thumbsup

[Rhapsody]

Personally, Esbilac almost killed my girls from diarrhea so I wouldnt recommend using it -

Can you please be a little more specific on how you where using the Esbilac Puppy Formula that it made your squirrel sick?

Were you using the liquid formula at full strength or diluted?
Where you using the powder formula at full strength or diluted?
Did you premix the formula for the entire days usage or Did you mix as needed?

Thank you.... just curious to what the actual cause may have been.

[Nancy in New York]

Can you please be a little more specific on how you where using the Esbilac Puppy Formula that it made your squirrel sick?

Were you using the liquid formula at full strength or diluted?
Where you using the powder formula at full strength or diluted?
Did you premix the formula for the entire days usage or Did you mix as needed?

Thank you.... just curious to what the actual cause may have been.

Here is a exerpt taken from WildAgain Wildlife Rehabilitation, Inc.
Milk replacers for wildlife
Update: May 2010
And the link: http://www.ewildagain.org/Milk%20Rep...e_may_2010.htm

Some rehabilitators feeding formula made with Esbilac® powder produced since December 2008 to juvenile wildlife continue to report positive gastrointestinal health and excellent growth when they prepare it with hotter water and allow the mixed formula to ‘rest’ in the refrigerator at least 4 hours. Other rehabilitators who modified their formula preparation practices, even including feeding probiotics twice a day, report that some juvenile wild mammals are growing well but develop soft stool or diarrhea, often with an offensive odor.

[Nancy in New York]

Another interesting article that IR posted...

Manufacturing Changes for Esbilac® Powder Affect Wildlife Rehabilitators - Questions and Test Results

http://www.ewildagain.com/Nutrition/Esbilac%20Manufacturing%20Changes.htm

[spykitten01]

Can you please be a little more specific on how you where using the Esbilac Puppy Formula that it made your squirrel sick?

Were you using the liquid formula at full strength or diluted?
Where you using the powder formula at full strength or diluted?
Did you premix the formula for the entire days usage or Did you mix as needed?

Thank you.... just curious to what the actual cause may have been.


I was using the diluted powder and typically mixed the powder first thing in the morning and threw it away in the evening - I only heated what I needed to use when I needed to use it - when I would first mix it, I would use HOT water and a little full fat yogurt and made sure to mix it VERY thoroughly. Almost as soon as I started using Esbilac, their tummies went downhill and as soon as I had them on something else and ran a course of metro, the symptoms resolved and NEVER came back - They were slow to develop while I had them on the Esbilac as well. They improved some on the goats milk formula and then THRIVED once they were getting FV - They had an enormous growth spurt and TONS of fur growth after being on it just a few days.

[Skalar]

wow. Should I have ordered 2 1lb bags of the formula then?

[spykitten01]

Start with the first, one bag got my girls from around 4wks - 10/11 weeks. Its always a good idea to offer them formula as long as they want it - at that point in time, only Willow had any interest, and Reilly wanted nothing to do with a syringe. Even Willows interest was fairly minimal - she'd slurp distractedly at a few CCs and then wander off and be done with it - Some squirrels never seem to want to give it up Haha - With 3 youll be needing another bag or two, but you can wait till youre about 3/4 of the way through the first bag.

[Rhapsody]

I was using the diluted powder and typically mixed the powder first thing in the morning and threw it away in the evening - I only heated what I needed to use when I needed to use it - when I would first mix it, I would use HOT water and a little full fat yogurt and made sure to mix it VERY thoroughly.

Thanks for your honest recap of how you used the Esbalic formula..... I have asked several other people the same question that had issues with Esbalic along with the story that was posted above (while I have never had a problem in 5 years) and from what I have concluded they all have these factors in common: premixed formula, hot water to prepare, stored in cold place after mixing at hot temperature.

This leaves me to wonder IF the past issues with Esbilac was more in the way people were preparing the formula than with the formula/ingredients its self - just a little food for thought, not trying to change peoples mind on the formula they feed their squirrels.

I say that it might be in the way people are preparing the formula as I personally do not waver any from the way the instructions say to prepare the Esbalic formula, nor do I premix the formula (every feeding is freshly mixed) and I do not add any other food item to the formula and my squirrels have never had an issue or bout with bloat or diarrhea - not even once. I mix the amount of powder and water I need for one feeding then its all over and done with until the next feeding is required.

:)

[island rehabber]

Rhapsody, it was Pet Ag, the company that makes Esbilac, who changed their manufacturing process in late 2008, I believe. This is well documented, and unfortunately it led to unprecedented sickness and death reported by wildlife rehabbers all over the US. Particularly with regard to squirrels and rabbits, rehabbers were losing entire litters of babies to the bloat and diarrhea caused by the "new Esbilac". The company made no effort to rectify the situation; instead, it backpedalled and claimed they "never intended it to be used for anything except puppies." :shakehead
So while everyone may have their own quirk or two when mixing/preparing formula, those same people never had a problem until Pet Ag changed their process. This is why The Squirrel Board no longer recommends using Esbilac for baby squirrels.

[Rhapsody]

So while everyone may have their own quirk or two when mixing/preparing formula, those same people never had a problem until Pet Ag changed their process.
This is why The Squirrel Board no longer recommends using Esbilac for baby squirrels.


It breaks one heart to think of all the baby squirrels that perished with the change...... and yet the more I read the more I personally feel that it was with the mixing of the Esbilac after they changed the formula that created all the deaths. sad so sad. :shakehead So - over all I guess I am just trying to say that I dont personally think that Esbilac is bad, IF it is prepared the right way....... leaving undissolved formula behind is the wrong way (see below).

http://www.ewildagain.com/Nutrition/Esbilac%20Manufacturing%20Changes.htm
Young animals that eatinadequately dissolved formula are consuming less nutrition and can develop diarrhea and grow more slowly.
The inadequately dissolved and undigested milk products in an animal’s GI tract are a great place for bacteria to grow – and infections to develop.

.... but I do have to say that 2nd statement from the Esbilac report does make one stop and think.
.... glad I got a hand held egg whisk that I bend blend blend with before feeding.

Thanks for the good conversations - it has given me some thing to think about.

[Skalar]

well, I fed them the Goat's milk formula about an hour ago. I hope its okay for the lil guys.. any change worries me.



I don't know how to tell you, but I absolutely love these lil guys! In the past week they've brought a bright spot in my life I didn't even know was dark. I've grown so attached.


One thing I know is the Esbilac was making them bloated and made them poo all over themselves, I hope the goat's milk formula does the trick until I can get the FV. Wish I could have gotten it last week.

[Rhapsody]

One thing I know is the Esbilac was making them bloated and made them poo all over themselves,

Yeah that happens with the liquid formula (especially at full strength)..... I would never recommend liquid formula over powder formula, no matter what brand you use.

[Skalar]

I'd like to say, after switching to the goat's milk formula, they've been doing very well today. Happy, and gaining weight! I'm sure this will hold them over until the proper squirrel formula arrives.


2/8
Squeaky 34.9g
Chipper 37.5g
Pinky 28.2g

2/9
Squeaky 36.5g
Chipper 40.5g
Pinky 30.2g

their weights are up, they're happy and most importantly they seem to be getting full each time I feed them. Thanks, I really appreciate all your help, and the squirrels do too!

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7027/img0776st.jpg

Happy and content....isn't that just pure cuteness?

[island rehabber]

Beautiful baby! Good job, Skalar!
and please don't worry if the babies get a little.....er.....stinky? Goat's milk is a fantastic, healthy formula for them and rehabbers have used it for decades.....but it does make the babies a bit less than sweet-smelling. :tilt :sanp3 I learned that from Jackie in Tampa. :rotfl

[Rhapsody]

Awwwwwwwww - the last picture is wonderful, leaves me feeling all warm and fuzzy inside. :Love_Icon

[Skalar]

and please don't worry if the babies get a little.....er.....stinky? Goat's milk is a fantastic, healthy formula for them and rehabbers have used it for decades.....but it does make the babies a bit less than sweet-smelling. :tilt :sanp3 I learned that from Jackie in Tampa. :rotfl


I noticed that, I figured since they were getting their fur it was that 'squirrel smell' coming in. I'll be switching them over to the FV formula as soon as it comes in (it shipped today)

The big things, the bloat and the diarrhea are gone, which makes me think they're gonna be just fine :)

[Nancy in New York]

I noticed that, I figured since they were getting their fur it was that 'squirrel smell' coming in. I'll be switching them over to the FV formula as soon as it comes in (it shipped today)

The big things, the bloat and the diarrhea are gone, which makes me think they're gonna be just fine :)

Wonderful news....we love to see babies. How adorable. Glad they are doing better...wait until you get the FV....you and babies are all going to love it. When you first introduce it though start off with 1/2 goats milk and 1/2 FV for a few feeding, and then go to just the FV, and they will do wonderful. But anytime you switch them over the loose stools can start again until their tummies adjust...:thumbsup

[UDoWhat]

Skalar, your babies are beautiful. :Love_Icon Believe me you ARE hooked! That's how fast that happens. I have been a rehabber for ten years and have had many baby squirrels in those years. I used Esbilac all those years UNTIL one year I lost 8 of my eleven pinkies. I was heartbroken and closed to any futher babies that year. I switched to Fox Valley and was able to turn the other three around. In less than 48 hours the diarrhea was gone. All three were later released. OK, enough of that! Have fun with your babies and keep us posted.

[island rehabber]

I used Esbilac all those years UNTIL one year I lost 8 of my eleven pinkies. I was heartbroken and closed to any futher babies that year. I switched to Fox Valley and was able to turn the other three around.

Oh God, Udo, that is exactly the type of horror story I've heard from so many who used Esbilac. And while I appreciate the Casey's methodology for using the "new Esbilac" without killing baby animals, I frankly lack the advanced calculus skills, patience and OCD required to follow it! :D

[UDoWhat]

IR, plus who has the time to read the study on how to use this "off label" product. I'd like to say I'm done with this rant, but I'm NOT.

Skalar, How are those babies today? You are doing great! Happy Day!

[Skalar]

they're doing great. if USPS can be believed I get my FV formula in today. They're growing like weeds! (I'm having trouble telling them apart because they're changing so quickly!)


they have hard, yellow colored stools now, thankfully. They look happy and healthy and gained an average of 2g since yesterday. Now that's growing! I can't imagine gaining the equivalent of 15-20lbs a day..


I think they're starting to not need the overnight feedings, as last night their bellies were still full of milk so I put it off for a few hours until the morning.


http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/7158/img0784s.jpg
look at all that fur!

[Nancy in New York]

I love your babies....wonderful job. Remember what IR said too that they should gain an average of 5-7 grams a day! They are too cute for words!!!:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

[gs1]

i didn't see this posted by anyone else yet... and ir or nin or someone can confirm/correct ....

but with fox valley you'll space out your feedings more because it takes longer to go through the digestive tract.....

so if you were feeding every 2 hours before ... then you'll go to every three hours ... aprx!!! .... and ofcourse if you can still see the milk line then that will be your guide.....

they're beautiful babies ...:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :thumbsup :)

[Scooterzmom]

Sooooo very cute! Adorable little buttons!!!!!! You are so lucky to have these cuties in your care! They look wonderful and I'm sure they're in great hands!!!!! :D