aflatoxins

[naturelady1]

Like most folks here, I've been following the sudden illness and heartbreaking news about 2ndHand Ranch Rescue's squirrels. I am new to squirrel care and have a question about aflatoxins. Didn't want to ask on her thread, cause feel the energy there should be prayers, healing, and support at this time.:Love_Icon

I bought loose mixed nuts at Walmart on Sunday and now will not use them.
Understand from reading the posts, a little bit about what alfatoxins are, but feel really ignorant about how to protect my squirrel from them.

My question is: What, if anything, destroys these nasties? :pissed Do they die if the nuts are frozen? Does heat (ie baking in an oven), after being shelled destroy them?

It's not about saving money, I'll throw the nuts away in a heartbeat. Its about keeping my kiddo safe. Is there something I can do to all the nuts I purchase that would kill the aflatoxins, and do that as a precaution each time? Should all my nuts be stored in the freezer, so that nothing can grow on them?
:thankyou

[mpetys]

Thanks for asking these questions naturelady1. I've had the same questions running through my head. I buy mixed nuts 50 pounds at a time. What should I do when I bring them home? How should they be stored (lasts several months)?

Good topic especially for us newbies who never worried about nuts or aflatoxins.


Michele

[naturelady1]

Thanks for asking these questions naturelady1. I've had the same questions running through my head. I buy mixed nuts 50 pounds at a time. What should I do when I bring them home? How should they be stored (lasts several months)?

Good topic especially for us newbies who never worried about nuts or aflatoxins.


Michele

Thanks Michele, there's so much to learn...

I was supposed to be leaving to go get some "essential" errands done, but got sucked into a little bit of computer searching. I might have answered part of my own question, cause I found this on glidercentral.net.

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=69760

This was dated 2009...don't know if anything new has been discovered or not?
Never dreamed there would be so much info...gotta love the squirrel forums!

[mpetys]

Good information but I am still hoping to get information on the correct way to store nuts if we don't want to roast them. After all, the main reason for nuts in the shell is for the squirrels to have to open them. Also, I have hickory nuts so those take quite a while to get into and provides a nice activity for them.

Yes, I have learned so much in the past year but still feel like such a newbie!

Michele

[naturelady1]

Understand completely...me too cause I feed outside kids!

I haven't left the computer yet...have read so many bigggg words in scientific journals about alfatoxins that my head is spinning. Interesting tho, that some of the new technology utilizes something called hydrated sodium calcium aluminosilicate which apparently somehow "binds" to and "neutralizes" somewhat the effects of certain alfaltoxins...and this stuff is commonly found in certain types of clays. Way smarter brains than mine are hard at work trying to come up with solutions to this world wide nemesis, one group was using nanotechnolgy...jeesch! I feel so stupid, cause I didn't even know they existed before Sunday.

Hmmm,...our wilds bury nuts in the soil...and eat so many things that we really don't know about...they have survived for such a long time in a world of molds and toxins...maybe in the wild, the majority of them are finding what they need to neutralize this nasty??

I realize this doesn't help our issues, but it was where the past few hours of internet surfing wound up. Have to REALLY go now...lol

[virgo062]

How to Store Nuts (Without Cheek Pouches)


Q. For convenience, I like to keep a variety of nuts on hand for cooking and baking. Is it possible to freeze nuts to keep them from going rancid?
A. Because of the high fat content of nuts, they are very susceptible to going rancid, so frankly, you’re nuts if you don’t keep them in the freezer or at least the refrigerator. Light, heat, moisture, and the presence of metal conspire to spoil nuts, so they are best stored in sealed plastic or glass containers in a dark, cool, dry place. The freezer is ideal, and doesn’t harm the nuts at all.

Nuts also quickly absorb odors from their surroundings, which is another argument for keeping them in isolation in cold storage.

Peanuts, pecans and walnuts are most susceptible to spoiling, while almonds and cashews are among the least. Nuts keep for approximately twice as long in the shell as they do shelled. A good rule of thumb is that a fresh nut will keep for four months in the refrigerator and eight months in the freezer. Of course, you generally have no idea how fresh the nuts you buy are, so you should try to buy them from a busy store that turns over lots of product frequently.

Rancid nuts will ruin whatever you put them in, so be sure to taste a sample before you add them to a recipe.

[lilidukes]

Q. when you take the nuts out of the freezer wouldn't you would get moisture inside the shell. So if the nut is stashed.................?????????????????

[virgo062]

Chew on this.....Squirrels bury their nuts in the ground:thinking

[lilidukes]

Chew on this.....Squirrels bury their nuts in the ground:thinking

True that! Just thinkin out loud!

[virgo062]

True that! Just thinkin out loud!

Wondering if we are thinking to much into this? Squirrels know their nuts

[mpetys]

Everyone old enough to remember a "root cellar? From wikipedia: A root cellar is a structure built underground or partially underground and used to store vegetables, fruits, and nuts or other foods.

I'm not suggesting we all build root cellars I just thought it funny comparing squirrels burying nuts in the ground to what the old folks used to do.:D

Michele

[lilidukes]

I think that all we can do is the best we can. Squirrels hand raised as well as wild are and do get sick. And if it's not one thing it will be another. :shakehead :thinking Wish these fuzzers could talk I'm sure they would have a lot to tell us.:D

[CritterMom]

I strongly believe they consume things in the wild that neutralize stuff like this. Brazil has a big ecotourism place that revolves around watching thousands and thousands of parrots that arrive daily at some clay cliffs along a river. Eating the clay neutralizes the deadly neurotoxins in the fruits they LIVE on. We cannot perfectly duplicate that ever. Ours live like little hothouse orchids, swaddled in clean fleece...

[djarenspace9]

I'm curious too.
I usually freeze nuts in shell, including acorns, stored in plastic freezer bags, and use them year round.
I try to take out only what I need for a few days at a time.
I let them dry out in an open container.

If I cover them too soon (before dry) some will develop mold quickly, particularly the acorns and I have to toss them.

I only cover them because I don't want bugs coming for a snack, but ideally would leave them open.

Hopefully I'm not doing anything to encourage aflatoxins to propagate.

I bought this years "stash" at Walmart.
I never have before but my usual seasonal suppliers had no whole nuts this year.
They said costs increased and they chose not to have any for the holidays.

I don't want to be discouraged from using them based on an isolated incident.
I would love to find out the BEST WAY to prep and store whole nuts, as it's a REALLY REALLY important topic for my squirrels!

[virgo062]

I'm kind of a simple girl and don't put a lot of thought into (things) I buy nuts
put them in the cabinent and buy more when they are gone...I but HHB"S and if they eat them great if not well then.....Ok, Ok when Knothead gets the Chicken Pox from something you guys can bash me:gun2

[Lulu2010]

I'm glad this was brought up. Since reading 2HR's thread about her squirrels, I have been so scared to give nuts. I also buy from Wal-mart and I keep mine in a plastic bag in the cupboard. Now, I have decided to at least rinse them very well and dry them well just before offering them. I had another question though... could it be just one bad nut in the bag, or if one is bad, does that make them all or at least the majority since they are in contact, bad? Hope that makes sense. If you pre- crack them and take a peek, can you tell if the nut is bad? If the shell is discolored, does that mean the nut may be bad? Sorry so many questions, I am just concerned.

[mugzeezma]

I'm glad this was brought up. Since reading 2HR's thread about her squirrels, I have been so scared to give nuts. I also buy from Wal-mart and I keep mine in a plastic bag in the cupboard. Now, I have decided to at least rinse them very well and dry them well just before offering them. I had another question though... could it be just one bad nut in the bag, or if one is bad, does that make them all or at least the majority since they are in contact, bad? Hope that makes sense. If you pre- crack them and take a peek, can you tell if the nut is bad? If the shell is discolored, does that mean the nut may be bad? Sorry so many questions, I am just concerned.

Freezing and cooking do not destroy the toxins produced by the fungal colonies.
Much the same as botulism where the organism can be destroyed but not the toxins produced

the antibiotic made from penicillin is actually a mycotoxin.

what was this 'clay' you read about? was it bentonite? kaolin? Both are used and marketed for human consumption and in the ceramics industry.
Curious because I work with clay.
yeah
another hat
production potter :tilt

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

I'm glad this was brought up. Since reading 2HR's thread about her squirrels, I have been so scared to give nuts. I also buy from Wal-mart and I keep mine in a plastic bag in the cupboard. Now, I have decided to at least rinse them very well and dry them well just before offering them. I had another question though... could it be just one bad nut in the bag, or if one is bad, does that make them all or at least the majority since they are in contact, bad? Hope that makes sense. If you pre- crack them and take a peek, can you tell if the nut is bad? If the shell is discolored, does that mean the nut may be bad? Sorry so many questions, I am just concerned.


I bought my nuts from wal-mart last year, this year I got them from Giant Eagle. I get them wherever I get the best deal :D.

You can sometimes tell if a nut is bad because they feel light and rattle around inside. If you crack them, the bad ones are off color (darker) and usually smaller than the good ones (the shell obviously doesn't shrink though).

I think this is a HORRIBLE situation, but I think most are over reacting. How many pounds of nuts have we all collectively fed our squirrels? Everyone elses babies are OK and we aren't even 100% sure that alfatoxins are the problem with 2ndHand Ranch Rescue's squirrels. Just think of all the nuts you have used and how healthy your babies have been. Squirrels need to have nuts, they need to practice cracking them and know that they are yummy to survive in the wild.

Does anyone know if 2ndHand Ranch fed her babies acorns? I do NOT feed my babies many acorns because I haven't been able to keep them from spoiling. They go bad whether I store them in sealed bags, open, or frozen. I will give them some when they are freshly fallen in the fall, but I won't store them. I would think they would be a higher risk of alfatoxins. I have always wondered how squirrels live on the acorns and keep them from spoiling because all my methods result in rotting acorns :shakehead. Obviously they have a better technique.

For store bought nuts, I have no problem keeping them from spoiling. I feed mixed nuts and peanuts on alternating days and I just keep them all in sealed bags and never have an issue with them going bad. I buy peanuts (roasted unsalted in the shell) throughout the year because they are always about $1 a pound, but I buy in the shell mixed nuts in bulk in the winter. I just got 44 pounds of mixed nuts from Giant Eagle and will be looking for more on sale over the next month or so. That will last me until they go on sale again next January. I keep them in their bags they came in and they stay good just fine. I do store them in the basement where the temp. is 60-65 degrees year round, though, so maybe that helps :dono.

I really don't think this is something we should all get worked up about. The nuts we are buying are made for human consumption, so the amount of alfatoxins must be extremely low or they would be recalled. Perhaps if there is a problem with them going bad, people could periodically crack a few of their nuts to make sure they are still good.

[4skwerlz]

Aflatoxins are some of the most dangerous substances in nature: toxic and carcinogenic. The fats in nuts go rancid fairly quickly and that's another danger, as rancid fats can be carcinogenic too.

1. In-shell nuts should be picked or purchased fresh, in season (usually the holiday season), and stored in the refrigerator in a tightly closed bag or container. A freezer is okay too. They'll keep a long time this way.

2. Although nuts in the shell "keep" better in terms of the fats not going rancid as quickly, they are more prone to development of aflatoxins, because of the moist nut inside the closed shell. Buy them in season and fridge immediately!

3. If you purchase bulk nuts (shelled or unshelled) throughout the year, buy them from a reputable grower; they will have stored the nuts properly. Fridge immediately. We buy pecan meal and whole shelled pecans from Georgia year round; they are always sweet and fresh; we fridge immediately!

4. You'll notice you can buy nuts (shelled and unshelled) in plastic packages throughout the year at your grocery store. A lot of these will be rancid/moldy. The Diamond walnuts in the vacuum-sealed can are usually okay.

If you buy/store a lot of nuts, invest 10 bucks in some oxygen absorbers and put them in with your nuts in a tightly sealed container in the fridge.

Hope this helps!

[momma2boo]

I will give them some when they are freshly fallen in the fall, but I won't store them. I would think they would be a higher risk of alfatoxins. I have always wondered how squirrels live on the acorns and keep them from spoiling because all my methods result in rotting acorns :shakehead. Obviously they have a better technique.



I picked ripe acorns from our oak tree this past Florida fall and froze them. SR&BT has made me wonder now if it is safe to feed these to my squirrels.

Can anyone elaborate? Please? The last thing I want to do is make my babies sick.


Dr. E has a vet tech who is a licensed rehabber who told me that it doesn't matter if the acorn is bad since the squirrels won't eat them if they are. But obviously squirrels somewhere have.

[4skwerlz]

I picked ripe acorns from our oak tree this past Florida fall and froze them. SR&BT has made me wonder now if it is safe to feed these to my squirrels.

Can anyone elaborate? Please? The last thing I want to do is make my babies sick.


Dr. E has a vet tech who is a licensed rehabber who told me that it doesn't matter if the acorn is bad since the squirrels won't eat them if they are. But obviously squirrels somewhere have.

Acorns picked fresh and then frozen should keep fine. Warm temps plus moisture are needed for aflatoxins to grow.

Wild squirrels do sniff and examine each nut carefully before eating; it appears our pets and NRs may not have as good instincts. When "mommy" gives them a food, maybe they figure it's okay.

[djarenspace9]

Good tips we are getting on this topic!

It would be rash to throw out our nuts regardless if they come from one store or another.
Likely they may all come from the same place to start!

I do want to be sure I am storing them well to keep them in the best conditions.

(Will need to Google "oxygen absorber" though I bet whatever that is I can buy it on Amazon!)

My bottom line in feeding nuts to my squirrels is "Would I eat this?"

If it does not look right or has any sign of mold or a crack or discoloration it goes in the trash.

I think the same way 4Skwerlz does ... because I only give my "kids" a small amount of nuts it's possible they would eat a bad one just because it's all they have.

[mugzeezma]

I picked ripe acorns from our oak tree this past Florida fall and froze them. SR&BT has made me wonder now if it is safe to feed these to my squirrels.

Can anyone elaborate? Please? The last thing I want to do is make my babies sick.


Dr. E has a vet tech who is a licensed rehabber who told me that it doesn't matter if the acorn is bad since the squirrels won't eat them if they are. But obviously squirrels somewhere have.

I have never given just one nut or by hand if they are in the shell and here is the reason.
IMO
Nuts in the shell are more for enrichment than food. the hickory nuts I got for the 'Animal Farm' :D are fabulous for this.
the squirrels have a choice if you throw three or for in the cage.
They eat one and play their hiding games with the rest.
if a nut is a treat and given by hand from squammy , baby will try to eat it.
this may or may not be true but it does give the animals a choice to pick out sood from bad.
Is it fool proof?
I couldn't tell you...just an opinion
as far as acorns are concerned, they are bulkier and wetter than most nuts.I would tend to believe that that's why they tend to be more prone to mold?

SRB2
According to Shirley Casey of WildAgain, nuts are NOT a primary food source. They are a seasonal fruit when green and buried or stored for winter. Dried nuts are great for storing fat in the body for harsh weather and scarcity of food stocks. Squirrels recover only a small percent of the nuts buried. Studies have been done on this.
The nut trees that were on my property were ALWAYS stripped long before the nut dried and ripened.
It was a veritable feeding frenzy for two days. Starlings, grackles, squirrels would tear my northern pecan, english and black walnut trees apart fighting for the green nuts in late summer.
They all knew the DAY it was sweetest.
Nothing was left for winter except buds and cambium and their fat stores.

[Jackie in Tampa]

be very leary of the imported italian chestnuts sold in the cold produce section of grocery store...
actually, please don't buy them.
:Love_Icon
i have been doing sq and feeding nuts for long enough to NOT STOP,
i have had one issue /crisis, and it was not a hardshelled nut...
it was a raw chestnut if a nut was involved at all.
i feed nuts daily in the shell, i too buy bulk 50lb bags...
never never never feed raw peanuts:nono

i seldom feed acorns unless i pick them up myself and they are green and fresh.
i have too many sqs and not enough freezer to store anything...i buy, they eat. gone as fast as they get here.

i will say that the chestnut in question..appeared normal.
if....it was the chestnut and not the mulch, in my case.

Late 2009, I had an issue with this.:shakehead

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

I have never given just one nut or by hand if they are in the shell and here is the reason.
IMO
Nuts in the shell are more for enrichment than food. the hickory nuts I got for the 'Animal Farm' :D are fabulous for this.
the squirrels have a choice if you throw three or for in the cage.
They eat one and play their hiding games with the rest.
if a nut is a treat and given by hand from squammy , baby will try to eat it.
this may or may not be true but it does give the animals a choice to pick out sood from bad.
Is it fool proof?
I couldn't tell you...just an opinion
as far as acorns are concerned, they are bulkier and wetter than most nuts.I would tend to believe that that's why they tend to be more prone to mold?

SRB2
According to Shirley Casey of WildAgain, nuts are NOT a primary food source. They are a seasonal fruit when green and buried or stored for winter. Dried nuts are great for storing fat in the body for harsh weather and scarcity of food stocks. Squirrels recover only a small percent of the nuts buried. Studies have been done on this.
The nut trees that were on my property were ALWAYS stripped long before the nut dried and ripened.
It was a veritable feeding frenzy for two days. Starlings, grackles, squirrels would tear my northern pecan, english and black walnut trees apart fighting for the green nuts in late summer.
They all knew the DAY it was sweetest.
Nothing was left for winter except buds and cambium and their fat stores.

For the time nuts are fresh, they are a primary food source, and I believe they are a primary food source in the winter as well. If not, I'd like to know what is for the winter, if there is other stuff out there, I'd feel better about doing fall releases. As it stands, I usually won't release past the beginning of October. In the summer, there is lots of other stuff for them and nuts aren't in season, so I know it's not the main food source then, but fall and winter I'd say nuts are their primary food source.

[Jackie in Tampa]

For the time nuts are fresh, they are a primary food source, and I believe they are a primary food source in the winter as well. If not, I'd like to know what is for the winter, if there is other stuff out there, I'd feel better about doing fall releases. As it stands, I usually won't release past the beginning of October. In the summer, there is lots of other stuff for them and nuts aren't in season, so I know it's not the main food source then, but fall and winter I'd say nuts are their primary food source.
I agree, nuts in nature are stored for winter ...all the way thru the first buds of spring...
I will never stop giving nuts...our sqs need protein and natural fats...
cannot be primary source year round, but they play key roll accompanied with the healthy diet....and sqs like them...it's up to us to weed out the garbage for our captives, as they only have what we offer, not a free range choice.
I advise to not put anything fresh in a sealed plastic bag...
use a paper bag to dry acorns out in if you cannot feed immediately after harvesting them.
OR flash freeze anything fresh.
NUTS from the grocery/market are sold for humans and are going to be safe....

another thought for you guys...
who buys veggies from mexico and south america?
that's very scarey!!!!!

[mugzeezma]

For the time nuts are fresh, they are a primary food source, and I believe they are a primary food source in the winter as well. If not, I'd like to know what is for the winter, if there is other stuff out there, I'd feel better about doing fall releases. As it stands, I usually won't release past the beginning of October. In the summer, there is lots of other stuff for them and nuts aren't in season, so I know it's not the main food source then, but fall and winter I'd say nuts are their primary food source.

SRB2
I was told by none other than Shirley Casey herself at eWildAgain...She advised me on the release of Ani. I wanted to wait and release her with Finnagin in the spring. Shirley convinced me not to. I released her in October.
My neighbors feed the squirrelies. They LOVE the brownies (that's what they call them :Love_Icon )
I have a nestbox for her.
no feral cats, no feral dogs.

Regardless
Shirley stated that CAMBIUM and leaf or flower buds set for spring are the primary food sources. Tubers, bulbs, and grubs are other food sources.
They may eat a bird or two along the way as well.

Call her if you don't believe me

I can't cut and paste anything from a phone conversation or books that I've read years ago.
I wish that was possible.

Think about this

I had a conversation with JoSchmoe about foods on the Great Plains where there are no nut trees or even trees for that matter.
The Fox Squirrels THRIVE...3 pounders.
seed crops
wheat, oat, barley, corn, tubers, bugs, etc.

I spoke with Dr Nevis yesterday and we were pretty much rolling on the fact that it takes a lot to knock out a squirrel...they are born survivors.

Cute and fuzzy perhaps...but perfectly adapted

Natures exquisite design :Love_Icon gotta :Love_Icon it

[mugzeezma]

SRB2
I was told by none other than Shirley Casey herself at eWildAgain...She advised me on the release of Ani. I wanted to wait and release her with Finnagin in the spring. Shirley convinced me not to. I released her in October.
My neighbors feed the squirrelies. They LOVE the brownies (that's what they call them :Love_Icon )
I have a nestbox for her.
no feral cats, no feral dogs.

Regardless
Shirley stated that CAMBIUM and leaf or flower buds set for spring are the primary food sources. Tubers, bulbs, and grubs are other food sources.
They may eat a bird or two along the way as well.

Call her if you don't believe me

I can't cut and paste anything from a phone conversation or books that I've read years ago.
I wish that was possible.

Think about this

I had a conversation with JoSchmoe about foods on the Great Plains where there are no nut trees or even trees for that matter.
The Fox Squirrels THRIVE...3 pounders.
seed crops
wheat, oat, barley, corn, tubers, bugs, etc.

I spoke with Dr Nevis yesterday and we were pretty much rolling on the fact that it takes a lot to knock out a squirrel...they are born survivors.

Cute and fuzzy perhaps...but perfectly adapted

Natures exquisite design :Love_Icon gotta :Love_Icon it

Didn't mean that to sound catty at all. Meant that if you want it verified you would need to call her yourself.

I can also give you some contacts at Willowbrook. They know of the Casey's they have also done post release studies. Let me know and I will give you names and numbers.
This is a very highly regarded nationally renowned facility run and funded by the forest preserve district and the state as well as private funding and grants. Willowbrook has been in the rehab business since 1958.

[naturelady1]

Thanks everyone for all the input. :thankyou I wasn't meaning to "overreact". Ignorance is a scary thing when you are responsible for the life of another, in any situation.

This topic was so new to me, that I was trying to get some sense of how the seasoned and veteran rehabbers on this board dealt with this threat. Was there something I was supposed to be doing that I wasn't? Some preventative measure that everyone knew who was working with squirrels? Or was it just some horrible thing that happened once in a blue moon? I simply had no idea.

So many of you have been doing this for so long, that you know the many things that can go wrong with these animals, and take preventative measures (ie correct diet) to keep them healthy. In addition to that, you can quickly recognize many symptoms/ issues and take the necessary steps to treat illness/ problems based on those years of experience.

We newer folks don't have that, so we rely on the information gleaned from those of you who share here on TSB. :)

I can see now, like in most things, common sense in assessing freshness, storage and visual examination of the nuts I buy will hopefully be enough
to keep my kids safe. I will take extra care with the few nuts that my inside girl gets. But I would have been really angry with myself if there was
something I was supposed to be doing, and something happened because I was too afraid to ask. :shakehead

[CritterMom]

I think it was an excellent question, myself. I've been doing a bit of research on aflatoxins. Nuts and things in the grocery store are as apt as any to have it present, as it can occur in many different points along the supply chain before they ever arrive at the grocery.

I am going to do a few things to address this, myself.

Purchase nuts during the winter months only. This, at least where I live, pretty much eliminates the chance that they have spent some period of time in hot, humid conditions during transport. Nuts are fall items, fall and winter purchases are fresh.

I thoroughly washed with antibacterial the acorns I picked this fall; I have no idea why it never occurred to me to do the same with my purchased nuts. I am going to do that when they arrive and then do a GSE (grapefruit seed extract) dip. They can be either laid out and dried or done in the oven at low temp I guess. Once dry, I will freeze them, taking out enough for a few days to be kept in the fridge. Obviously nuts with cracks and holes would be discarded. It makes sense that a lot of the aflatoxin containing mold is actually found ON THE SHELL - a few bad nuts break open and shift around during shipment, spreading it around...just washing them thoroughly like this would eliminate a LOT of it. And any time I can gain a toehold against the Grim Reaper, I go or it.

[momma2boo]

I think it was an excellent question, myself. I've been doing a bit of research on aflatoxins. Nuts and things in the grocery store are as apt as any to have it present, as it can occur in many different points along the supply chain before they ever arrive at the grocery.

I am going to do a few things to address this, myself.

Purchase nuts during the winter months only. This, at least where I live, pretty much eliminates the chance that they have spent some period of time in hot, humid conditions during transport. Nuts are fall items, fall and winter purchases are fresh.

I thoroughly washed with antibacterial the acorns I picked this fall; I have no idea why it never occurred to me to do the same with my purchased nuts. I am going to do that when they arrive and then do a GSE (grapefruit seed extract) dip. They can be either laid out and dried or done in the oven at low temp I guess. Once dry, I will freeze them, taking out enough for a few days to be kept in the fridge. Obviously nuts with cracks and holes would be discarded. It makes sense that a lot of the aflatoxin containing mold is actually found ON THE SHELL - a few bad nuts break open and shift around during shipment, spreading it around...just washing them thoroughly like this would eliminate a LOT of it. And any time I can gain a toehold against the Grim Reaper, I go or it.

Good point on washing them with antibacterial soap. I was doing that with the acorns I picked since as they fell to the ground daily I didn't want them falling in feces and then giving it to my sqs. So, I washed them and then laid them out to dry. Any acorn with a crack or hole was tossed. Most were frozen. The ones that were old I kept to one side to allow the worms to crawl out of which I feed to my girls. They LOVE them. For the most part I have seen my squirrels, even with the freshest of fresh acorns, turn their noses up at a few acorns.

The GSE bath is a great idea too. That stuff is wonderful stuff! I even sprayed many with white distilled vinegar and let them sit for a few minutes until I washed them with the antibacterial soap.

Also, I noticed Jackie that you say you pick your acorns green. I was told by my vet's tech (licensed rehabber) that the green acorns are poisonous to squirrels. I had never heard that before but I stopped feeding them the green ones and waited until they turned brown before harvesting them from that point on.

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

SRB2
I was told by none other than Shirley Casey herself at eWildAgain...She advised me on the release of Ani. I wanted to wait and release her with Finnagin in the spring. Shirley convinced me not to. I released her in October.
My neighbors feed the squirrelies. They LOVE the brownies (that's what they call them :Love_Icon )
I have a nestbox for her.
no feral cats, no feral dogs.

Regardless
Shirley stated that CAMBIUM and leaf or flower buds set for spring are the primary food sources. Tubers, bulbs, and grubs are other food sources.
They may eat a bird or two along the way as well.

Call her if you don't believe me

I can't cut and paste anything from a phone conversation or books that I've read years ago.
I wish that was possible.

Think about this

I had a conversation with JoSchmoe about foods on the Great Plains where there are no nut trees or even trees for that matter.
The Fox Squirrels THRIVE...3 pounders.
seed crops
wheat, oat, barley, corn, tubers, bugs, etc.

I spoke with Dr Nevis yesterday and we were pretty much rolling on the fact that it takes a lot to knock out a squirrel...they are born survivors.

Cute and fuzzy perhaps...but perfectly adapted

Natures exquisite design :Love_Icon gotta :Love_Icon it

I attended a class at the New York Conference that was taught via skype by Shirley Casey. Let's just say I wasn't impressed. She comes off as a know it all to me and nothing drives me nuts more than that. She taught on genital sucking and had a million and one reasons why it was NOT the obvious suckling that the squirrels were thinking they were doing. Granted there are sometimes other issues going on, but she wanted to make it like every squirrel had a urinary tract infection or teething problems or something else, they couldn't be just suckling on eachother because they thought it was a nipple.

And she also feels that she has solved the Esbilac issue :shakehead. I have tried her techniques and they might work for her and a few others, but not for me or several other rehabbers I know. Esbilac squirrels are smaller and weaker and I have had to switch to Fox Valley, Zoologic 33/40, and a homemade formula blend.

Just saying, don't believe everything you hear and one persons opinion isn't necessarily the majorities opinion or the only view.


As for squirrels, what buds are out there right now? Cambium yes, obviously that is always there, but the buds here don't come until spring and that's when I release around the beginning of April when the buds are out. There also aren't any bugs or baby birds out this time of year, so that isn't going to work for the winter. I released mid October this year because I knew the person I was releasing them with would feed them throughout the winter and that is awesome :thumbsup. I don't have squirrels in my yard so I have to do hard releases (I release them in their nestbox) and I know that I won't travel all the time to take them food in the winter and some places aren't easilly accessible in winter, so I think a spring release is a better option. If Shirley Casey wants to release hers in the fall, she can go for it, but I think nuts play a HUGE role in squirrels surviving the winter here and I don't think babies would survive the winter without help in the way of food if they were released in November or December. I'll do early October releases and even sometimes if the weather is mild and the nuts aren't all buried already, in the middle of October.

The squirrels in the plains are probably storing up the corn and stuff for winter like our guys do nuts. I didn't think foxers lived anywhere where there were no trees though :thinking. They are tree squirrels after all.


Now, to get back on track with the thread.... I think nuts are important to squirrels and we definetely don't want to take them away from our babies. I think proper storage, especially of acorns, will help reduce the risks of the alfatoxins.

[island rehabber]

I'm going to jump in here and say to ALSO beware of molding things at the bottom of nest boxes. The cheap cockatiel boxes sold at Petco and similar stores are particularly bad with this...after one season I often throw them out because of the inch of mold at the bottom from our kids taking snacks to bed and not finishing them :shakehead. There have been instances where rehabbers have lost a whole nest box of squirrels from mycotoxin or aflotoxin, due to molding at the bottom.
BTW: I have never seen this happen in a Coveside box or the white pine boxes my BF builds. Only the thin plywood ones sold as bird boxes.

[CritterMom]

Good point on washing them with antibacterial soap. I was doing that with the acorns I picked since as they fell to the ground daily I didn't want them falling in feces and then giving it to my sqs. So, I washed them and then laid them out to dry. Any acorn with a crack or hole was tossed. Most were frozen. The ones that were old I kept to one side to allow the worms to crawl out of which I feed to my girls. They LOVE them. For the most part I have seen my squirrels, even with the freshest of fresh acorns, turn their noses up at a few acorns.

The GSE bath is a great idea too. That stuff is wonderful stuff! I even sprayed many with white distilled vinegar and let them sit for a few minutes until I washed them with the antibacterial soap.

Also, I noticed Jackie that you say you pick your acorns green. I was told by my vet's tech (licensed rehabber) that the green acorns are poisonous to squirrels. I had never heard that before but I stopped feeding them the green ones and waited until they turned brown before harvesting them from that point on.


M2B, many of mine were green when picked - my wilds are risking life and limb at that time to get out to the tips of the branches to eat the green acorns. P eats them all the time.

You know where I saw a lot of stuff about not eating green acorns? Clarissa Summers site. You should ask the vet tech if she has ever heard of Clarissa...

[mugzeezma]

M2B, many of mine were green when picked - my wilds are risking life and limb at that time to get out to the tips of the branches to eat the green acorns. P eats them all the time.

You know where I saw a lot of stuff about not eating green acorns? Clarissa Summers site. You should ask the vet tech if she has ever heard of Clarissa...

wonder where that info comes from?

may be toxic to some species and not to others?

I feed the really small green acorns. mine love them

[CritterMom]

It is a problems with horses - it may be extrapolated from that???

[mugzeezma]

Understand completely...me too cause I feed outside kids!

I haven't left the computer yet...have read so many bigggg words in scientific journals about alfatoxins that my head is spinning. Interesting tho, that some of the new technology utilizes something called hydrated sodium calcium aluminosilicate which apparently somehow "binds" to and "neutralizes" somewhat the effects of certain alfaltoxins...and this stuff is commonly found in certain types of clays. Way smarter brains than mine are hard at work trying to come up with solutions to this world wide nemesis, one group was using nanotechnolgy...jeesch! I feel so stupid, cause I didn't even know they existed before Sunday.

Hmmm,...our wilds bury nuts in the soil...and eat so many things that we really don't know about...they have survived for such a long time in a world of molds and toxins...maybe in the wild, the majority of them are finding what they need to neutralize this nasty??

I realize this doesn't help our issues, but it was where the past few hours of internet surfing wound up. Have to REALLY go now...lol

You know there might be something to this...
Bentonite is sold for human consumption along with green algae to add the specific polysaccharide, ulvans, to open up the platelets, as we call the clay structure in ceramics, there may be some possibilities for a detox agent.
Bentonite is used as a flocculant in ceramic glazes. It's also used to add plasticity to 'throwing' clay bodies.

Yes, it has binding properties.

Pierre needs to get in on this!!!!
PM time

sorry non of this probably made a damn bit of sense but I think you are on to something Naturelady!

[mugzeezma]

It is a problems with horses - it may be extrapolated from that???
Acorns are toxic to horses but deer thrive on them..get fat.
May be toxic to turtles too according to the site I put on the safe/toxic plant sticky

[momma2boo]

Thanks Crit ... you know, I had fed some to my girls without any problems but after she told me this I got worried.

[mugzeezma]

I attended a class at the New York Conference that was taught via skype by Shirley Casey. Let's just say I wasn't impressed. She comes off as a know it all to me and nothing drives me nuts more than that. She taught on genital sucking and had a million and one reasons why it was NOT the obvious suckling that the squirrels were thinking they were doing. Granted there are sometimes other issues going on, but she wanted to make it like every squirrel had a urinary tract infection or teething problems or something else, they couldn't be just suckling on eachother because they thought it was a nipple.

And she also feels that she has solved the Esbilac issue :shakehead. I have tried her techniques and they might work for her and a few others, but not for me or several other rehabbers I know. Esbilac squirrels are smaller and weaker and I have had to switch to Fox Valley, Zoologic 33/40, and a homemade formula blend.

Just saying, don't believe everything you hear and one persons opinion isn't necessarily the majorities opinion or the only view.


As for squirrels, what buds are out there right now? Cambium yes, obviously that is always there, but the buds here don't come until spring and that's when I release around the beginning of April when the buds are out. There also aren't any bugs or baby birds out this time of year, so that isn't going to work for the winter. I released mid October this year because I knew the person I was releasing them with would feed them throughout the winter and that is awesome :thumbsup. I don't have squirrels in my yard so I have to do hard releases (I release them in their nestbox) and I know that I won't travel all the time to take them food in the winter and some places aren't easilly accessible in winter, so I think a spring release is a better option. If Shirley Casey wants to release hers in the fall, she can go for it, but I think nuts play a HUGE role in squirrels surviving the winter here and I don't think babies would survive the winter without help in the way of food if they were released in November or December. I'll do early October releases and even sometimes if the weather is mild and the nuts aren't all buried already, in the middle of October.

The squirrels in the plains are probably storing up the corn and stuff for winter like our guys do nuts. I didn't think foxers lived anywhere where there were no trees though :thinking. They are tree squirrels after all.


Now, to get back on track with the thread.... I think nuts are important to squirrels and we definetely don't want to take them away from our babies. I think proper storage, especially of acorns, will help reduce the risks of the alfatoxins.
I agree on not taking one person's word on everything. What she said backs up other things I have read, heard, etc. I rarely ever accept one source as the 'end all'.
That's the beauty of this forum
As I said I am also going on the willowbrook protocol. I went with the most knowledgeable sources available. Provided a nest box and ample resource it's okay. There are studies on it.
I think it also depends on the how ready the Sq is to go too.
Many species of trees SET buds in the fall. Insects are hiding under the bark. If the birds can find them so can the squirrels....also tubers bulbs under the soil. There are dried berries and rose hips...dried seed pods and to a minor extent weakened adult birds...check out Youtube for verification.
There are few nut trees in my neighborhood and a lot of mature trees.
Lots of fat squirrels here too.
bird feeders
and nutty hand outs

I am not saying don't feed nuts
That's not the point

The point is to get the freshest cleanest nuts into proper ie., cold DRY storage as soon as possible.
I saw the wash with vit C. We ave all seen C, ascorbic acid used as a presevative...might be something to that DK

[djarenspace9]

Ok so GREEN ACORNS vs BROWN ACORNS, what was the word on that??
:D

I feed both, I pick the green ones clean from my parent's tree - all the ones I can reach.

Then I gather the brown ones later as they fall daily.
(They do not use any type of pesticide in their yard, so I trust the source)

My squirrels like both, and I thought both were safe.

It is VERY CONFUSING sometimes to hear such differing opinions.
I don't doubt that each person is sincere in offering their knowledge,
but it has been very frustrating over the years when dealing with
different rehabbers and experts and getting opposing advice.

SIGH.

I try to trust my instincts most of all, be logical about things, and take all advice in consideration, including the source.

But back to my question...GREEN or BROWN?
I took a poll back there...5 out of 5 squirrels say....

:jump
...WE LIKE THEM ALL!!!
Green, Brown, Big, Small, Soft Shell, Hard Shell...keep em coming!

[JLM27]

My wilds are so funny. They creep up to get a nut in the shell from a dish, on belly, ears back, tippy-toeing, and hesitant, back and forth back and forth, and then. . .snatch! Then they dash away TWO FEET and stop for about 6 SECONDS to inspect the nut all over with their tongue, turning it over and over in their hands. I think they are looking for cracks or holes. They can't see up close, so they inspect it with their tongues. But, I have to laugh at them, because after all that creeping and sneaking, they sit there like little ducks, perfect for the snatching, looking oblivious, while they decide if it is a good one or not. If they decide it is good, they dash up the tree with it. If not, they throw it down and creep and sneak back for another.

[momma2boo]

Well, there you have it. They like them all and apparently are the cutest nut inspectors ever!

[mugzeezma]

Well, there you have it. They like them all and apparently are the cutest nut inspectors ever!
uh uh
Aaron

He was checking out hickory nuts...with a sledge hammer


Finnagin ran in
stole the nut

buried it in my bed...:shakehead


I sleep with nuts