Lulu

[Lulu2010]

Lulu is going on 13 weeks of age. I've had her since she was about 4 weeks old. I thought everything was normal physically until I realized that she isn't really growing. The other squirrel she was in with grew so quickly that I had to put Lulu in a cage by herself. Even now, she's very tiny. I was told it could be down syndrome. Things I noticed while raising her are:
1- she would constantly dehydrate over first couple weeks
2- I thought several times she had pneumonia
3- she was pretty under weight and had hard time getting her to gain.
4- she refused all solid foods; only liked cheerios which she would suckle until they shrank up. She just started "eating" a few days ago.
5- she has a fuzzy coat instead of slick.
6- she's very miniature
7-has the tail of a 5 week old in appearance
8- she has random tufts of longer hair on tip of tail and upper back legs.
9- she is pretty good at climbing, etc but does sleep a lot. She sleeps with me on the couch a couple hours a night too.
Could this actually be down syndrome? She doesn't look like the downs babies from other posts but is it just because she's young? I've never seen a squirrel like her in my life. I absolutely adore her and don't want anything to happen to her. Our exotic vet will only see her if she becomes a "pet" because they don't see wild animals. My rehabber friend doesn't see the need to take her since she's not sick. Any info would be appreciated. I have been on a search for a few weeks and no help yet. I hope I've finally found the right place. Thanks in advance.

[CritterMom]

Photos would be very helpful.

May I ask what you are giving her for formula?

I have never even seen one of these little cuties, except for folks on here, but a few themes run through all of the stories and might help you. They do remain infantile in look and behavior, so the not weaning is not surprising.

Also, like babies, they have problems thermoregulating. If she was mine, I would have a heating pad set on low available to her when the temps drop much below 70 degrees. So many people that had these little sweeties lost them due to cold in temps you would never suspected would be a problem.

Pics, please. And welcome!

[Lulu2010]

I feed Esbilac puppy. I keep it in the freezer bc I buy the big can. I pre-mix at least 5 hours before I feed it, as well. I do have a small heater left over that I can put on her. However, her body temp is pretty hot. She's very warm in my hand. She loves to play and already bites my husband when he comes around. So, I am pretty stumped as to what her situation is. She is very tiny.
http://tinypic.com/r/71nw9j/7
http://tinypic.com/r/k9drao/7
Ok. Hope I did that right. These were taken when she was 11 weeks old. She is now almost 13 weeks. There isn't much difference except she has a bald spot on back of her head and now she has the tufts of longer hair growing on tip of tail and hind legs...and she's a little fatter. I forgot to add that she is bald on her cheeks (I guess from suckling the cheerios) and her inner arms as well (not completely bald there, just really thin hair). Please let me know what you think. Thanks!
PS- To compare her actual size, I will say she looks to be about the size of a maybe a 5-6 week old squirrel. I have 4 almost 8 week old babies and they are all bigger than her! In those pics she weighs about 72 grams.

[CritterMom]

No, a heating pad, like a little baby. Just don't assume that she can stay warm in temps that an average squirrel would be fine in.

OMG, I knew she would be adorable.

Would you consider changing the formula? The Fox Valley 20/50 is producing such gorgeous, furry little babies, and the nutrition is so much closer to what squirrels rather than puppies need.

I hope you get to speak to some people who have had one of these little ones. Sp precious!

[Lulu2010]

Thanks! :Love_Icon I can't help but feel the same way! I guess because I raised her. :)
I will definitely get the other heating pad out. I just took it off of her maybe a week or so and I was scared but she did really well. I don't want to risk it though. Atleast, until I know what's wrong with her. In comparing symptoms, Down Syndrome does seem very possible...
I have been terrified about changing formulas but I can surely look into it some more. I like to talk to the manufacturer to ask questions. I always call Esbilac when I get a new can and have them run the lot number to make sure that it's ok on their end. I am so scared of "poisoning" them. I will check it out for sure. If it seems good then I'll get some and try it out. Is that what you use? I've never heard of it.
Yeah, I really hope I get some help soon from someone that has or had one. I feel desperate for info. I guess I am kind of hoping for someone to tell me that I am insane and that she is just small. I've read a couple stories and they don't seem to live long. That would break my heart. She's so sweet.

[pappy1264]

OMG....she is so tiny!! Yes, I would suggest switching to FV. I have seen failure to thrive babies switch and do really great! I don't think 'size' is actually one of the signs of downs in squirrels. She is beyond precious! Where are you located, maybe we can get help with another vet?

[Lulu2010]

Well, I can use that vet but only if she's a pet. Technically she's the property of the rehab center. I'm just fostering. If she is deemed as not releasable, then she'll probably stay with me.
I thought size was part of it. Hmm. I just can't find much info about it. So, you think if I switch formula, that could help? Any idea where I can get that formula from?

[CritterMom]

Order the FV either from the manufacturer - www.foxvalleynutrition.com - the phone number is on the site and the owner, Nick, will talk your ear off about his product if you have questions. It can also be ordered from www.henryspets.com (her shipping prices are better and she sells all sorts of other stuff, too). For this little one, I would spend a couple days doing a transition to the new food.

[pappy1264]

I suppose it could be, but there are other signs as well. And they even 'look' downs in the face/eyes when you see them, I don't see that look in her face. I may be wrong, but I still believe changing her food would be a good idea. I have seen failure to thrive and they are SMALL.

[CritterMom]

Order the FV either from the manufacturer - www.foxvalleynutrition.com - the phone number is on the site and the owner, Nick, will talk your ear off about his product if you have questions. It can also be ordered from www.henryspets.com (her shipping prices are better and she sells all sorts of other stuff, too). For this little one, I would spend a couple days doing a transition to the new food.


Fox Valley also makes a product called Ultra Boost that can be added to the formula - you might want to discuss that with him if you call him.

[mugzeezma]

Order the FV either from the manufacturer - www.foxvalleynutrition.com - the phone number is on the site and the owner, Nick, will talk your ear off about his product if you have questions. It can also be ordered from www.henryspets.com (her shipping prices are better and she sells all sorts of other stuff, too). For this little one, I would spend a couple days doing a transition to the new food.

Did you mix Multimilk with the Esbilac formula? That's a must!
squirrels are not puppies. They need more fat.

Order the Fox Valley 32/40 AND the Ultra Boost to get this baby started.
Nick is old fashioned with his billing so don't let that throw you!

http://www.foxvalleynutrition.com/main/home.asp

Did you say you had two babies from the same litter?

[pappy1264]

Jodi had a downs baby, I called her to let her know about this little one, she will be on later. Also pm'd Jackie, too. More heads thinking the better, I always say!

[Lulu2010]

Oh my gosh...I don't know where to start. LOL
Thank you so much everyone for all the advice. I am going to check out that formula when I get back home this afternoon. I never added anything to the formula, ever. I did not know they needed more fat. I guess all the babies always did so well on just the Esbilac that I thought I was doing enough. No one ever told me they need different. Guess it's a good thing that I found this forum.
pappy1264- Thanks for putting the word out! Definitely the more help I can get the better. I just don't want to prevent her from having a full life. Thanks! :D

[mugzeezma]

Oh my gosh...I don't know where to start. LOL
Thank you so much everyone for all the advice. I am going to check out that formula when I get back home this afternoon. I never added anything to the formula, ever. I did not know they needed more fat. I guess all the babies always did so well on just the Esbilac that I thought I was doing enough. No one ever told me they need different. Guess it's a good thing that I found this forum.
pappy1264- Thanks for putting the word out! Definitely the more help I can get the better. I just don't want to prevent her from having a full life. Thanks! :D
Hey don't feel bad LuLu... I started my first guy on KMR and heavy cream based on what a rehabber had told me!
The Wildlife center I work at uses all the Pet Ag products and they use the Multimilk with the Esbilac for the squirrlies and possies.
It's purely my opinion to start your baby on the 32/40 with the Ultra Boost instead of the 20/50 that would normally be used for a baby 4weeks and older. I think she needs a heavy bump to get going.
I use that for my 12 week olds. They seemed to be lagging on 20/50. They are now both very energetic, sleek and over 420grams

[Lulu2010]

Hey don't feel bad LuLu... I started my first guy on KMR and heavy cream based on what a rehabber had told me!
The Wildlife center I work at uses all the Pet Ag products and they use the Multimilk with the Esbilac for the squirrlies and possies.
It's purely my opinion to start your baby on the 32/40 with the Ultra Boost instead of the 20/50 that would normally be used for a baby 4weeks and older. I think she needs a heavy bump to get going.
I use that for my 12 week olds. They seemed to be lagging on 20/50. They are now both very energetic, sleek and over 420grams

That is very helpful info. I was told by someone to use esbilac. I've told the rehabber what I use and she's never said anything. Well, I'm definitely going to make some changes. How do I transition her to a new food? What is the appropriate amount to feed based on their weight?

[pappy1264]

Yes, usually 5-7% of their body weight. I have seen the difference in my babies on the FV and I will never use anything else! (Both squirrels and bunnies.) And wait until you smell it....you will want to eat it yourself! lol

You're welcome. She is so precious and I hope others might have some insight to offer.

Normally, you would use the food diluted and work up every two feedings or so (to make sure she doesn't get diarrhea). Also, FV tends to stay with them longer, so you go longer between meals (for example, with Esbilac if you were on every 2 hours, with FV it would be every 3-3 1/2 hours.) Does she drink from a dish at all? Do you offer her yogurt?

[CritterMom]

I think you are going to like the Fox Valley. It is LESS expensive than the Esbilac; does not need to be mixed hours beforehand, and it is perfectly fine to use alone without the addition of cream. We suggested the booster stuff simply because this baby is so teeny. And it smells like french vanilla!

If introduced correctly, people are not seeing the diarrhea issues that so many have on Esbilac.

I would spend a day or two doing the transition on this little one - each feeding increasing the amount of FV and decreasing the amount of Esbilac until she is converted over.

[mugzeezma]

That is very helpful info. I was told by someone to use esbilac. I've told the rehabber what I use and she's never said anything. Well, I'm definitely going to make some changes. How do I transition her to a new food? What is the appropriate amount to feed based on their weight?
The rule of thumb is 5-7% of their body weight.
I prefer to feed by how FULL the baby is. While holding the baby up check for roundness at the groin line.
Change the formula by 25% every other feeding

[CritterMom]

In other words, mix up both FV and esbilac. Do a couple feedings at 75% esbilac, 25% FV. Then several more at 50/50. Then several more at 75%FV and 25% esbilac. You want to go slowly enough that her tummy doesn't know something happened!

I would also (1) dilute the FV slightly for the initial transition - maybe 2.5 to 1 instead of 2 to 1.

I also would transition to straight FV, and after she does well with that, THEN start adding in the ultra boost, again, a little at a time. Slowly is always best.:thumbsup

[mugzeezma]

In other words, mix up both FV and esbilac. Do a couple feedings at 75% esbilac, 25% FV. Then several more at 50/50. Then several more at 75%FV and 25% esbilac. You want to go slowly enough that her tummy doesn't know something happened!

I would also (1) dilute the FV slightly for the initial transition - maybe 2.5 to 1 instead of 2 to 1.

I also would transition to straight FV, and after she does well with that, THEN start adding in the ultra boost, again, a little at a time. Slowly is always best.:thumbsup
:jump that confused ME sorry critter don't mean to step on toes

UltraBoost is a 25/56 heavy cream w/ added nutrients so the 3parts 32/40 and the 1part UB mix transition should be fine.
I went from straight 20/50 to the high octane blend like this.

I will attempt to decomplicate

Esbilac FV 32/40 w/UB

100%...................0
75%...................25%
75%...................25%
50%...................50%
50%...................50%
25%...................75%
25%...................75%
0.....................100%

If you see soft white poo cut back the amount.
Diarrhea, replace one feeding with pedialyte and resume.

[Lulu2010]

:thankyou
You guys have all been very helpful. I am going to check out Fox Valley and make a call in as well to ask further questions about the formula. I hope that is the issue. Either way, if it's a better formula then at least I can have it from here on out with any babies I raise and hopefully they can avoid any issues of stunted growth.
If she doesn't grow after being on the new formula for a few weeks, then what? Can she be released as a "dwarf"? Anybody have any ideas if Down Syndrome is still a possibility, or can I rule that out?

[mugzeezma]

:thankyou
You guys have all been very helpful. I am going to check out Fox Valley and make a call in as well to ask further questions about the formula. I hope that is the issue. Either way, if it's a better formula then at least I can have it from here on out with any babies I raise and hopefully they can avoid any issues of stunted growth.
If she doesn't grow after being on the new formula for a few weeks, then what? Can she be released as a "dwarf"? Anybody have any ideas if Down Syndrome is still a possibility, or can I rule that out?

something's going on there...hard to say what just yet.

[psychobird]

hi. jodi here.
not sure if she is down downs baby or not, her size is hopefully is just because of the esbilac.
if she is a downs and time will tell she should always be kept on heat and be fed formula for a very long time maybe even her whole life.
be careful giving her solids, sometimes they can choke.
i contacted chris from chris's squirrels n more when i had lumpy, she has alot of exp with down's babies
i would treat her as one until you know what's going on.
if she is downs she will be unreleasable, but if it's just a nutrition issue she may be able to be released, time will tell

[Lulu2010]

Psychobird- that is kinda good news, I guess. I'm hoping for the best, but I'm still concerned. I guess, like you said, only time will tell. I'm going to take extra special care of her and hope to find out something soon. I'll be changing her diet as well. One thing I've noticed is that no matter how much food I give her, she consumes every bit. I have to do smaller portions at a time. I guess it's bc she just learned how to eat solid food.
I did contact squirrels and more about 2 weeks ago but they never replied to my email. I spoke to a lady there and she said to email a photo. I figured they just didn't know. Maybe I'll try again. Thanks!

[NaturesGift]

aww yeah I sometimes have the same Worries over my Miki. She is 11-12 weeks old and 150 grams. And has been staying there for awhile.

But I got her in sooo starved at 37 grams eyes open. and on FV she really began to grow. But that bad time in her life had to have some kind of impact.

She also has the random tufts of longer hair on tip of tail and upper back legs

Has always had the cutest Tail tho!

When I first got her she would have symtoms of pneumonia only at night. So I would think during he day she was better..then get all worried she was dieing at night.

She is my lil Miracle. And tho she is tiny I am gonna over winter her and see what a long term healthy diet can do for her. And Im gonna keep her on FV as long as she will drink it.

Her "brother" a 7 week old is now way bigger than her. lol But hes a CHUNK CHUNK!

cant wait to watch lil Lulu Flourish!

[astra]

don't know... her facial bone structure doesn't really look like Down's... their eyes are usually much farther apart, head is shaped differently, and the look in their eyes is definitely off... unless there are various degrees of Down's as in humans... she just looks like a miniature squirrel... her eyes seem to be fairly bright for Down's... hopefully, just a nutritional issue...

[Lulu2010]

NaturesGift- I would love to see some pics of her. I've never seen a squirrel like Lulu so it's nice to know you have one with similar qualities. Did she refuse to eat solids? The only solid Lulu would eat were cheerios, but she would not really eat them. She would suckle them until they would shrink up really small and then she would drop them and search for more. She did that until about a week ago when she finally discovered she could eat stuff and it was good. She will be 13 weeks tomorrow. I guess I shouldn't worry too much as long as she is healthy. Is yours very talkative? Lulu chatters and cries a lot. I know they all make noises but she is constantly talking unless she is sleeping. :)

[Lulu2010]

don't know... her facial bone structure doesn't really look like Down's... their eyes are usually much farther apart, head is shaped differently, and the look in their eyes is definitely off... unless there are various degrees of Down's as in humans... she just looks like a miniature squirrel... her eyes seem to be fairly bright for Down's... hopefully, just a nutritional issue...

Thanks for the info. It makes me feel a bit relieved. I was at the exotic vet today for one of my lizards and was hoping to get more information. The doctor had not heard of downs syndrome in squirrels but mentioned another possibility. I cannot remember what the word is bc we talked about her for a bit. I'll have to call and ask bc I looked through the forum and nothing rang a bell.
Either way, I guess before I get too caught up in trying to diagnose her, I'm gonna switch the formula and see if she hits a growth spurt. It would be nice if she could be released with my other 4 when they're ready. They are 8 weeks right now. Thanks again! :jump

[Rhapsody]

HI Lulu2010 - I too have a baby squirrel I think maybe a special needs little guy and from the pics you posted I have to say that your Lulu and my Picasso look a lot like and have the same issues... maybe we can walk this path together and share what we have learned along the way if our babies turn out having ds.

You can see pics of Picasso in the Nursery section under "Picasso - My Special Squirrel"

[pappy1264]

I don't know, but maybe dwarfism? Does anyone know if it can happen in squirrels? The eyes are what made me think not a downs.

[Lulu2010]

Any body know how many weeks before a squirrel stops growing? I'm just trying to get an idea of how long to stick with the possibility that she might grow. Thanks!

[pappy1264]

I'm not sure, but I know mine continued to grow until they were several months old (although it slowed down as they got older). I even recently saw Pinkie, the little girl I released this summer. I released her at 16 weeks, saw her for a little while, then did not see her for 6 weeks. When she reappeared, she was HUGE! lol (And had most of her winter coat on, too!) So she still has growing left to do! When you get the FV, you should try the recipe for Booballs, she might like them! Also, do you have HHB'S for her? She might like them and they are very good for her!!!

[Lulu2010]

That'll be exciting bc I love trying new foods with all my squirrels. Lulu used to go nuts for cheerios, but I started giving her rodent block when she actually started eating. She grabs the rodent block and when that's all gone, she'll eat the cheerios.
What are HHB's?
Glad to hear they grow for a while. She may just be a late bloomer. I'll just have to see. She's really chunky but tiny. We struggled with weight so I over fed her for a week or so and stopped when it upset her tummy. It worked in making her gain weight but now she's a little overweight. I'm sure the solid foods have added to it as well since she's not been eating for long.

[pappy1264]

Henry's Healthy Blocks. A member here makes blocks for squirrels (both 'pets' and wilds). You can find the link in the squirrel nutrition section. Also, search 'boo balls' and you can find the recipe to make those, as well. Also, on the Henry's site is a page on healthy foods to feed and how much you should (a squirrel food 'pyramid'.) I keep a copy in my pocketbook, so when I shop, I know what is better for them to eat!

[Lulu2010]

:thankyou
Great recommendation on the food chart. I just looked at and I'm going to print it when I get home. I'm always shopping for them and wondering if certain fruits/veggies are safe for them. I used to work at Petsmart so I always bought the same kinds of stuff we fed the animals at the store. They'll enjoy new items on their menu. I'll have to try the Boo Balls too. And I'll order some of the HHB's which I'm sure Lulu will be excited about. :)

[psychobird]

she does look like a mini sq, lumpy had a look to him, when i got him he just looked odd and i couldn't put my finger on it.
i thought at first he had a head injury because he was found in the street but that wasn't it.
he got older and i started making calls about him, is how i figured out what it was
he was a super slow eater.
he had a big round head, small round body n short limbs.
i never did figure out if he could see, his eyes were kind of blank.
it didn't end well for lumpy eventually the water he had on his brain was effecting his brain stem and he could no longer swallow, we thought we would have more time with him but it wasn't meant to be.

[Lulu2010]

Psychobird-
:shakehead that is so sad to hear. Thanks for sharing his story with me. Atleast he was loved before he died.
That makes me more confident in believing it's not downs. It must be failure to thrive. I think with a better diet and more time then she may be fine.

[pappy1264]

She may always be on the small side, even if she grows more. I really don't believe she is a downs baby. Goodness knows, she is adorable! If she turns to be a NR, would you be keeping her yourself?

[Lulu2010]

She may always be on the small side, even if she grows more. I really don't believe she is a downs baby. Goodness knows, she is adorable! If she turns to be a NR, would you be keeping her yourself?

Thanks!!!! I just love her to pieces! I would definitely be keeping her if releasing her is not a safe option. I will post more pics of her in the nursery soon. So, keep your eyes open for them!

[pappy1264]

I will be watching for them!!!

[Lulu2010]

I just wanted to add that last night I noticed Lulu's fuzzy fine textured hair had a rougher feel to it. Then, I was looking at her this afternoon and noticed that it seems like her adult hair is finally coming in. I think she might have bald spots bc it's not coming in quite as fast as she's shedding it. I'll post my pics this weekend. I have to finish a paper that's due for class this week.
They should have a "failure to thrive" section on here. That would be helpful. I've never had a squirrel develop this way and I've been frantically searching for info. I've had no luck figuring out her problem until I found this forum. I'm so thankful for such wonderful members. :jump

[NaturesGift]

Miki is not a big eater. SHe loves HHBs. Doesnt like any other kind of Rodent block. But will Nibble on Pecans and Acorns. As well as Sweet potatoe and Avacado and Loves the salad mixes with Dill in them. Buts she is a Micro eater. Nibbles but doesnt eat as much As Hickory.

Miki looks like a normal squirrel she is Just TINY! she is in no way out of Proportion shes not Fat or skinny. Just mini. LOL but I think by springs she will be big enough for release!

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk194/natureagift2/more%20babies/DSCF0026-4.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk194/natureagift2/more%20babies/DSCF0025-3.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk194/natureagift2/DSCF0120.jpg


I have ot get a more recent shot of her beside my other kids!

DO you have any pics of Lulu with her siblings?

[Lulu2010]

Lol! She is soooooo cute! She does remind me of Lulu but I don't think Lulu's tail is that bushy. I am thinking Lulu will be ok but I may have to keep her a bit longer than I normally would. Our winters are pretty mild but I may keep her until spring just in case. Even if she seems ok before it gets too cold. I can tell your little one is little, but I feel the same way, that you can't tell Lulu is little unless you see her next to another squirrel that's bigger than her and younger. Then you really see it.

[wildlife ma]

I am a new member and have been reading the thread on down's syndrome squirrels with interest. I actually found this site when I was looking for info on down's since I have a squirrel that is about the third of size of what he should be at 12 weeks. He has been slow to eat solids and is still on formula. My other squirrels I rehab are starting to wean by this age although this season they ALL have been taking longer. I guess my question is how different do they actually look since "Parker" looks like a miniature squirrel to me but when he was younger, his eyes seemer to look like they were placed lower in his face. He had difficulty taking formula when he was younger and easily aspirated but I don't think lack of nutrition is causing him to be so small. Dwarfism was mentioned in the thread and I was wondering if anyone has info on that condition.

[psychobird]

here are some pics of lumpy, he didn't change much after these pics, he was about 7 weeks here

[Lulu2010]

All of the posts prior I had suspected Lulu had Downs, but I'm certain now that she does not. She started eating solids about 12 weeks old (not very well). Now she is just over 15 weeks and eats very well though she still suckles her food before she chows down. She has grown drastically in the last few weeks but is still very small for her age and still has the tail of a 5 week old. It's proportionate to her body just is that light color hair that lays flat to the tail. It's not bushy at all. She is moving on to Fox Valley formula and we just got HHB's in so I'm hoping that giving her more of what she needs will give her that boost to get where she needs to be size wise. I'm am very slack but I will try to get my pics up soon.

[wildlife ma]

Lumpy is adorable! My Parker's eyes looked similiar when he was around 7 weeks but he looks more normal now I guess except he is only 100 grams so is very small for 12 weeks. But he kinda seems a little long in his body. I put him next to the squirrel Beany Baby and that's how big he is. :) He also had the soft fur called "kitten fur" when he was a lot smaller but it now looks pretty normal also. I have a not so good photo at I think around 8 weeks and I need to take some more. I usually take tons of photos of all my squirrels...they are so precious when they are all curled up and sleeping.....just haven't found the time. I had 20 babies to take care of this fall season.

Since my goal is to preserve my rehabbed squirrel's wildness to give them the best chance of survival when released, I don't handle them after weaning but I'm going to enjoy giving Parker lots of attention since there is no way he is releasable.