is pox in a grey contagious to flyers?

[pappy1264]

Does anyone know? And if babies were together, then seperated (talking just greys here) and a week later one came down with pox, would the other necessarily have it/get it, as well? How contagious is it?

[Jackie in Tampa]

not alot of REAL info out there..but
yes, flyers have had pox, two confirmed cases...confirmed in my book anyways...

pox is contageous...

probably the other sq will show symptoms...

I cannot give an answer to the grey to flyer question, but I can say that a grey and a sherman foxer in the same house both contracted pox, was it from the vector{flea} or the virus???:dono

alot of variables I think...
we have all seen the worse cases...and then there are mild cases...

hey and with the keys sqs having pox again this year...makes ya think that the area does NOT build immunities like originally suspected..
I hate pox:shakehead *sigh*
the fricken virus from hell...

[psychobird]

jackie tell me more about the key squirrels, don't know what that is, if they don't get an immunity, not sure if it's going to be responsible to release my guy, i have a nice little group of squirrels many that i raised i would hate to compromise or put the flyers at risk by rehabbing him.

i'm the one with the poxy sq, he got a lesion last night i was hoping and praying it was an injury to his wrist, i know not a good thing to wish for, but better than pox.
vet pulled some fluid from the lesion today and sure enough its pox.
one of pappy's squirrels was in with this one for about 24 hrs before he could go to her about a week ago.
this sucks, i love the little bug

[pappy1264]

Well, all I can do is watch, wait and pray, I guess.

[CritterMom]

What are the thoughts about giving acyclovir as a preventive?

[gs1]

omg...

from what i've read ... it can be contagious through skin to skin or even maybe blanket contact even if no fleas are present...

or maybe not if they were separated in time....

omg...:grouphug prayers to the little guys....

omg... pappy are you worried about jett...omg....:grouphug :grouphug :grouphug there aren't any words... they stick in my throat... not jett..not any of them ofcourse but when you've already fallen so deeply in love with one of them and were planning a future already ... omg...so many worried prayers sent for all of you....:grouphug

[lookmomchickens]

I have acyclovir on hand - can send if necessary.

PM me your address and I can send you 1oz.

[Jackie in Tampa]

Jodi I will call today..

[pappy1264]

I have absolutely NO experience with it (even in the wilds here). What do you think? Should I give it as a hopeful preventative (or maybe the stuff to boost the immune system even????) I am very scared and on top of it, my sweet little bunny, Angel, has taken a turn. I hope I can pull her back, but I have a very bad feeling. Life right now is being very cruel.....:soapbox Thanks guys, let me know what you think. And thank you for that offer, I may take you up on it.

[mugzeezma]

I have absolutely NO experience with it (even in the wilds here). What do you think? Should I give it as a hopeful preventative (or maybe the stuff to boost the immune system even????) I am very scared and on top of it, my sweet little bunny, Angel, has taken a turn. I hope I can pull her back, but I have a very bad feeling. Life right now is being very cruel.....:soapbox Thanks guys, let me know what you think. And thank you for that offer, I may take you up on it.

I have no experience with this in squirrels, only birds.
When in doubt quarantine.

In the birds that have it, a different strain, it only becomes symptomatic when the animal is stressed. It can be highly contagious with the birds at the center. We maintain extreme hygiene in these cases. Remember too that animals at the rehab center are stressed for one reason or another and are living in an unnatural environment.
Coccidia and many other illnesses can be present and only be symptomatic under stressful conditions. Overpopulation can be a factor in the wild as well as injury or malnutrition.
I don't know of much information out there on squirrels. I will ask around.

[gs1]

mrs skul has had great success with echinacea capsules in water for her squirrels ... i'm pretty sure it's gnc brand but i'm not sure which one...

she said it tasted like a tea ... and so even the wild squirrels were drinking it...

i'll have to check my notes which capsules it was .... the big thing about it was that it was not bitter to drink....

but in the mean time i've linked to the gnc stores in mass.

http://www.gnc.com/storeLocator/results.jsp

[gs1]

i think it's this ..she mixes the powder in water....

http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2133940

i'm sorry we have to wait until she comes back to know the dosage and confirm....

[CritterMom]

Pappy, I would take LMC up on her offer. If you need it, it is right there - if they never get sick, you can drop it right into the mail and send it back to her.

[pappy1264]

They are on Sulfatrim, Flagyl and Albon fighting the coccidia. Will adding this med in be too much for their systems? They have another week on the meds to go.......what should I do??????

[mugzeezma]

They are on Sulfatrim, Flagyl and Albon fighting the coccidia. Will adding this med in be too much for their systems? They have another week on the meds to go.......what should I do??????
Why are they on Albon AND Sulfatrim...those are both sulfa drugs.

[Skul]

Thats the stuff GS1.
I just took a pic of our bottle.
Here it is.

117246

[mugzeezma]

Unfortunately I don't think this is the entire article. I think I know where I can find it though...wink,wink
I am not seeing anything about fibroma in flyers...yet

Excerpts: Squirrel Fibroma
Review and Case Reports
Erica A. Miller, DVM
Willowbrook Wildlife Center


Transmission
The virus is present in the blood the host animal and is spread by blood exchange between individuals. Mosquitoes have transmitted the disease under laboratory conditions (5). Mosquitoes, other insects, and arthropods are believed to transmit the disease in the wild (1).
Pathogenesis
The pathogenesis occurs as with other pox viruses: after invading the skin, multiplication begins in the regional lymph nodes within 24 hours, and the virus enters the blood stream (primary viremia) by the second day. The virus then multiplies in the spleen and liver and re-enters the blood stream (secondary viremia) at about day 5 to 6 post- exposure. Focal lesions first appear as fibromas in the skin, the target organ, after only 7 to 13 days (5). Antibody formation begins at about this time, but metastasis to multiple skin nodules occurs over the next 14 to 33 days. The severity (in terms of number and size of lesions) is probably inversely proportional to the antibody formation. The virus may be shed from the ulcerated skin papules to the environment as early as 10 to 12 days following the initial infection (2).
Lesions
Lesions are cutaneous nodules primarily present on the limbs, tail, head, and abdomen. The nodules are usually thick, elevated, flattened on top, and firm. These fibromas may ulcerate, become encrusted with cellular debris (4), and become infected with secondary bacterial orfungal agents (9). The skin around the face and genitals maybe thick and reddened, with or without demonstrating discrete nodules (4). The virus may present as a generalized disease in which anorexia, lethargy, and respiratory dyspnea accompany the skin lesions (6,10).
Diagnosis
The diagnosis is often based on clinical signs and can be confirmed by histopathological examination of the skin lesions.

The paper also states that squirrels were checked for skin mange mites, and subsequently treated with Ivermectin. Other supportive therapy included a form of injectable Vitamin A to help build the immune system and Dual-Pen for secondary infections given IM every other day. The outcome was that 50% of the squirrels survived to be released.

[Mrs Skul]

Marry Call Me!
Skul posted a picture of the Echinacea I found to work the best. :thumbsup
I have 3 babies getting over pox right now.You need to mix 1 capsule to 1 gal of water. Take LookMomChickens up on her Acyclovir.

Can you post a picture of the won you think has POX?? :eek: Look at the Toes, Ears, Eye, Tail, Rectum, and Tinkle are. Their will be little blisters. :eek: That is the first sines. The SCABES when they fall off are highly CONTAGIOUS to. I would start every thing in your house on ECHINACEA WATER NOW!!! You get it from GNC.
DONT buy the cheep walMart or Spring-Valley Bran!!:nono The out side Squirrels would not drink the water. It has a funny taste to them. GNC Bran is about $17.00 . It will not hurt forSuggar Gliders, Flying Squirrels, Rabbits, Birds, Cat, Dog, to drink the water. I would give it to every won. Even mixing your formula with the water/Mix.I sure hope the Pox problem in the Keys, are using the Echinacea Water!:thumbsup Helped 100% in my out side Squirrels when they came down with it. Good luck Pappy.:grouphug
Just watch your flyers. There has been quite a few Flyers that have came down with the POX!! Keep them on the Echinacea water.:thumbsup :thumbsup
PS If the blisters brake and the fluid get on the other Squirrel. You will have more blisters.
http://www.squirrel-rehab.org/rehabinfo/fibroma.shtml

[Mrs Skul]

Marry I have l more of information I can E-Mail to you. PM your address and It will be there. Lots of hands on work information about POX!:thumbsup

:bowdown JACKIE is the best when it comes to information about POX!!:thumbsup

[psychobird]

my little guy got pox (he's now deceased), another rehabber brought me a baby to go in with mine but he was much older so he went to pappy cause he was closer in age to her 3. that guy is the one that gave our babies coccidia.
that baby was in with my guy for about 24 hrs before he went to pappy.
i don't know if hers have been exposed now, no one seems to know when they start to shed the virus, thankfully no one has or had fleas so hopefully they were not exposed, but we don't know
we have them on all the drugs because one of the most experienced mammal rehabbers i know recommended it, and because of the severity of it.
she will drop the bactrim and flagyl when the diarrhea is under control but continue with the albon for at least another week then we will need to do a fecal or two

[psychobird]

i know the echanacia is probably safe, chris from chrs's squirrels n more recommended dmg to boost thier immune system
our concern is throwing an antiviral drug on top of everything they are on might just be too much for their little livers, would love to hear more feedback on it.
i can also check with my vet or tufts on tuesday to see what they think

[mugzeezma]

i know the echanacia is probably safe, chris from chrs's squirrels n more recommended dmg to boost thier immune system
our concern is throwing an antiviral drug on top of everything they are on might just be too much for their little livers, would love to hear more feedback on it.
i can also check with my vet or tufts on tuesday to see what they think
Sounds like a lot of meds. You would need to find out if there was any interaction as well.
When my son developed cellulitis from dog bite he was on 3 broad spectrum ABs IV for 6 days. That was to cover any and all types of bacteria present to prevent recurrence.
It's my understanding that Coccidia can be tough to get rid of the first round. Is that what pairing the 2 Sulfas is about?

[Mrs Skul]

:) That baby has been exposed to POX! Now Time will tell if it shows up. The stress from the coccidia is enoughs stress to lower their immune system. Babies suck on each other. The saliva and the liquid from the blisters will spread this to. Is any of them showing sines? Blisters bumps, swollen toes ,eyes, Genital area, or bumps on the tail.? If on the toes. Look for starting to turn red and a little swelling. Look at the whiskers on their little legs. Their will be little bumps then it will turn into a group of blisters. I know that Baytril is what Jackie and others recommend to treat for secondary infection. My little wons are only Scyclovir, and Echinacea water. That I mix up to make the formula. You need to give the Scyclovier 2 times a day after they eat. Within 1 week all blisters are drying and or gone. The eyes just started opening today. Pappy You have my number Call me if you need. Jackie is the one who helped me with the doses. :thumbsup :thankyou Thank You Jackie. Can you post pictures of the pox baby? Are you sure the one baby had POX? You should see some kine of changes within 7 to 10 days. That is how long it took my outside Squirrels to start showing sines, After exposer.

[pappy1264]

I have had little Sammy since last Thurs. The little guy Jodi had did not have any swelling until Thursday night (so it was a week after my guy came to me). None of mine have swelling of any kind (keeping super close eye out for any). I will get the Echineachia (don't know if I spelled that right...I just got home from the ER with my 9 yo daughter. She fell off her skateboard today and she has a fracture to the growth plate in her ankle. We have to see the ortho doc next week...FUN...NOT!) I will do whatever I have to do to help these guys. And the little guy Jodi had had swelling, no blister. The vet drained fluid out of it.

[psychobird]

yes he drained fluid from the lesion and looked at it under a scope and it had those nasty pox cells in it.

[pappy1264]

It wasn't blistered, though, right?

[psychobird]

at first it just looked swollen (i was praying it was an injury) but then it started to look like a tumor or cyst one on the top of his wrist and one on the bottom, they hadn't opened up yet though

[Mrs Skul]

I have had little Sammy since last Thurs. The little guy Jodi had did not have any swelling until Thursday night (so it was a week after my guy came to me). None of mine have swelling of any kind (keeping super close eye out for any). I will get the Echineachia (don't know if I spelled that right...I just got home from the ER with my 9 yo daughter. She fell off her skateboard today and she has a fracture to the growth plate in her ankle. We have to see the ortho doc next week...FUN...NOT!) I will do whatever I have to do to help these guys. And the little guy Jodi had had swelling, no blister. The vet drained fluid out of it.
:shakehead Marry still he was exposed. I know Jackie has had them on Baytrill and Scyclovir. I would hold off till you see some kind of sines or something. I would start them on Echinacea /mix with water. Even the out side Squirrels that come to your and Jodi's house. Have you talked to Jackie yet? :thinking Pappy I say blisters because my 2 week old babies that cough Pox it looked like that. Then it will turns and swells like a cyst. Rocki Just looked like a eye infection with a little swelling around the eye. Then this large cyst looking bump pop up. It starts with swelling and a bump. So fair that is what I have observed. Hope your little wons don't get a bad case. :grouphug
PS Got to the Gray Squirrel and look up Raising Miss Rocki. Go to the end and look back word. If you come across a picture about my sons wedding. Rockie and the Pox picture will be around that. We took pictures of her when it looked like a eye infection. She had just contracted POX!!!:eek:

[Jackie in Tampa]

I used Shaklees Nutriferon as a immune booster..but it ain't chaep!
In a normal situation I would use ONLY SMZ-TMP for the diarreha..., if after 3 days on it and you see no improvement, switch to the flagyl...
Process of elimination!

But since pox is suspected...stop all meds and use baytril...
it will kick ass and clean up any issue, it is the big dog!
POX always leads to pnuemonia, either viral or bacterial...so if you use the recommended meds...you are covering both types...
Baytril for secondary infections, IE pnuemonia and lesion madness...and the acyclovir for the pox virus and the chance of viral puemonia...
also the baytril will rip the butt outta any parasites..and kick the butt off the mange ..
STRESS Causes all these issues...
so no stress...no kids, no noise, no other pets, no junk food, warmth is a must...add heat, pox will dibilitate and the sqs cannot maintain body temps...quiet and calm please.... no new faces etc, no trauma...

Pox, keep everrything super clean, using 10% bleach solution...wash all bedding daily, spray all base boards with Adams flea spray...
do not share anything with other sqs, no matter what breed they are.
No seeds no corn no junk...
NO STRESS!!!!!
NO IVERMECTIN>>>>
Pm me your email address and I will send the backyard summary that we put together with tid bits of info that we found helpful..
{tY BsMom, I miss having a secretary:hissyfit }
REMEMBER THE WHOLE CRISIS WAS STARTED DUE TO STRESS IN THE WILD...SO THE BEST ADVISE CAN GIVE IS AGAIN, NO STRESS.

Lesions usually start on the ears and eyes, digits and butt...

Having the meds on hand just in case is key...
the three main meds are
acyclovir
baytril
metacam
other wonderful meds that maybe used are
eye ointments with ABs
Nystop powder for gooey lesions
nystatin ointment for dry lesions
betadine for lesion washes
baking soda for bathing
scabs that fall off must be flushed, they are contageous too.

you may need alot of firstaide supplies, q tips guaze etc for cleaning sq, they get very stinky gooey...
a single loving care giver is best:Love_Icon

I am sending good vibes...:grouphug :Love_Icon :grouphug

[pappy1264]

Wait, my head is spinning! Ok, we are treating for coccidia (that I KNOW we had here, via little Sammy.) Do I stop all the meds even with the coccidia? Will the baytril cover them for that? Isn't it not a good idea to stop a med before a full treatment? I have not seen any signs so far, do I still act as if they have it? I mean, is it a definite they do/will?

[mugzeezma]

Wait, my head is spinning! Ok, we are treating for coccidia (that I KNOW we had here, via little Sammy.) Do I stop all the meds even with the coccidia? Will the baytril cover them for that? Isn't it not a good idea to stop a med before a full treatment? I have not seen any signs so far, do I still act as if they have it? I mean, is it a definite they do/will?
With all due respect to Pbird and Jackie...you are all wonderful, don't forget that, you are in the drivers seat. You Pappy also have experience so do what your gut says is right. IMO dropping the meds for Coccidia will allow reoccurrence thereby adding stress. Handle the babies ONLY WHEN NECESSARY. always under quiet conditions. Since these are all releases and have friends to snuggle they don't need the contact.
All the fabulous advise here is for worst case scenario.

I think you answered you question already :thumbsup

:grouphug :grouphug :grouphug

I wish for you great success...sometimes no matter how hard you try you just can't win the game...just remember that it's all about how you play :grouphug

[mugzeezma]

...and to answer the big question?
according to Jackie flyers DO get pox. Can They get the same strain as the greys? I have read nothing to that effect. Personally I would be watch and wait since exposure MAY have occurred.

more good vibes tinfoil to you and all of your fuzzies

[pappy1264]

They are in enclosed areas, but still in teh same room. So all my flyers could be at risk being in the same room?

Thank you. It is a lot of info to get through. So far, no one is showing any signs of it (Pox), so I am imagining that is good. Does anyone know how long before no signs I can feel safely they will be ok? I mean, is there a time table before I 'should' see it?

[Jackie in Tampa]

sorry I should have been more clear...
No, I would not start pox treatment until you see something that COULd be and then evaluate.:thumbsup
But for cocchidia, I would treat with SMZ-TMP unless albon works for you.. Hoping you are virus free.:grouphug

[pappy1264]

They have been on both Sulfatrim and Albon (although stopped the Sulfatrim last night. Will be on Albon one more week. Also on Flagyl and Kaopectate.)

Any idea how long of a window before I can assume they will be ok? I will be getting the echinacea to help support their immune systems, at the very least. They look good, are eating great, poops still not great but at least it no longer smells! So I believe we are moving in the right direction. I have never been through any of this *(guess I have been blessed to just have healthy orphans.) I appreciate all help to help me and my babies!

[mugzeezma]

They are in enclosed areas, but still in teh same room. So all my flyers could be at risk being in the same room?

Thank you. It is a lot of info to get through. So far, no one is showing any signs of it (Pox), so I am imagining that is good. Does anyone know how long before no signs I can feel safely they will be ok? I mean, is there a time table before I 'should' see it?
Pox is not transmitted by air. It is transmitted by biting insects or by direct contact with lesions. Wash anything before it is shared including hands. Perhaps wear a smock or over shirt and gloves when handling the sick. It is my understanding that the virus can be carried without symptoms.
According to the article I sent 1-2 weeks before fibromas or lumps appear.
The virus is shed from the sores so careful hygiene is important to prevent the spread.

"The pathogenesis occurs as with other pox viruses: after invading the skin, multiplication begins in the regional lymph nodes within 24 hours, and the virus enters the blood stream (primary viremia) by the second day. The virus then multiplies in the spleen and liver and re-enters the blood stream (secondary viremia) at about day 5 to 6 post- exposure. Focal lesions first appear as fibromas in the skin, the target organ, after only 7 to 13 days ....metastasis to multiple skin nodules occurs over the next 14 to 33 days......The virus may be shed from the ulcerated skin papules to the environment as early as 10 to 12 days following the initial infection (2).
Lesions."

[Mrs Skul]

:goodpost
:thumbsup Thank you MugzeezMa :thumbsup
Pappy Start the Echinacea immediately!!:thumbsup Get that immune systems going into overdrive!
Maybe Nothing will show up. Like I said Give the Echinacea water (TEA) To all your Squirrels. It will not hurt the gliders ether. I would start adding Echinacea water to the out side squirrels.:thumbsup Pappy I am praying You have a good out come with this problem. :CM918

[pappy1264]

That makes me feel better. Little Bug (the one that had the pox) didn't have any lumps until a week after he and Sammy were together and even then, it was a lump, had not blistered yet. So does that make it less likely Sammy, and hence my guys, was exposed?

I will get the echinecea today (I know I keep speeling that wrong...lol) and start everyone on it, to try to cover the bases as much as I can. I am watching all my guys like hawks, and so far, so good.

Thanks again, guys. I love the little buggers, it has been so awful thinking of something happening to them!

[Jackie in Tampa]

just a heads up...BLISTERS???
I have never seen anything that resembles blisters in any pox case...
glad everything looks good Pappy:thumbsup :Love_Icon

[mugzeezma]

That makes me feel better. Little Bug (the one that had the pox) didn't have any lumps until a week after he and Sammy were together and even then, it was a lump, had not blistered yet. So does that make it less likely Sammy, and hence my guys, was exposed?

I will get the echinecea today (I know I keep speeling that wrong...lol) and start everyone on it, to try to cover the bases as much as I can. I am watching all my guys like hawks, and so far, so good.

Thanks again, guys. I love the little buggers, it has been so awful thinking of something happening to them!
Less likely ... I would still keep them quarantined in case of any mosquito or flea transmission ... You might want to get flea powder or the like...cover all your bases.

I really hope and pray this nasty virus goes nowhere Pap :grouphug

[pappy1264]

Not a blister, per se, but a lesion (but again, Bug had developed one small lump, that turned out to be pox. At that point, it had been a week since Sammy and Bug were together and they were only together for 24 hours.) No fleas here. They are in a large critter keeper, and I keep fleece over the top unless I am feeding or medicating them, as well. Thanks!

[psychobird]

he had just the start of the lesion hadn't opened up, or reached the surface of his his skin, just underneath, hoping and praying we are in the clear

[pappy1264]

You and me, both! So far, no sign of anything amiss. And they are doing much better re: the coccidia and those issues...the meds seem to be working!

[mugzeezma]

he had just the start of the lesion hadn't opened up, or reached the surface of his his skin, just underneath, hoping and praying we are in the clear
We are all praying with too
Pbird,
You and Pappy are near one another. Is squirrel pox pretty prevalent out there?
I'm newer to all this. Haven't heard much about it here in the midwest. The article I sent was written by a vet at the center I interned at :thinking
This is a scary, ugly disease.

[psychobird]

it's defiantly in our state, haven't seen any up in our area of course that doesn't mean it not here.
my little bug was from about 20 miles away in beverly.
i know alot of rehabbers around the state are getting poxy sq's in, but they are all pretty far away from the north shore, i suppose it's just a matter of time before it's everywhere.
one rehabber i know just got a red in and he died within 48 hrs

[pappy1264]

I have not seen any from our area with it (as Jodi stated, Bug was from another town). It certainly is very nasty. I'm sorry about the little red...I know they have no immunity to it whatsoever.

[pappy1264]

So far, no signs of any pox in any of my babies. They all finally have normal poop (YEAH!) Will be two weeks on Sunday they are on meds (one more week after that, to cover the basis with the albon.) Would not wish this on anyone! But wanted to update, I am cautiously optimistic we dodged this bullet!!

[mugzeezma]

So far, no signs of any pox in any of my babies. They all finally have normal poop (YEAH!) Will be two weeks on Sunday they are on meds (one more week after that, to cover the basis with the albon.) Would not wish this on anyone! But wanted to update, I am cautiously optimistic we dodged this bullet!!
Cautious optimism is the operative term.
WOW
I feel for you I really do
sending prayers and crossing fingers toes anything else I can find Pappy!

[pappy1264]

Thanks. Still doing great, diarrhea is completey gone from the coccidia (yeah) and they are gaining weight and look great! Still watching like a hawk, though. Trying to keep their life as stressfree as I can.

[pappy1264]

Everyone continues to do great, finally off all meds and no sign of anything, so I HOPE we should be in the clear at this point! They moved into the big flight cage yesterday (and are LOVING IT.....but I cannot get them still to drink from a dish....still holding out for syringe feedings, the little stinkers!!! Even yogurt they won't eat from a dish!)

[mugzeezma]

Everyone continues to do great, finally off all meds and no sign of anything, so I HOPE we should be in the clear at this point! They moved into the big flight cage yesterday (and are LOVING IT.....but I cannot get them still to drink from a dish....still holding out for syringe feedings, the little stinkers!!! Even yogurt they won't eat from a dish!)
Time for BOOBALLS!!!!
I wold just do
1 part ground rat block
1 part FV powder
enough applesauce to make dough

[pappy1264]

Yeah, think it is def. time! lol I brought them in some tree bark and some branches with leaves after breakfast...they are playing and having a blast! Later today going to do some tent time....so they can really get some exercise and play time! (I will get pics!) They are doing so good now.....(sure hope I didn't just jinx us!) Just love them. I miss Pinkie and Fonzi, been over 5 weeks since I have seen either of them. I pray they are safe, just living their life. I plan to winter these guys over (I just can't let them go so young so late in the season. They will be wintered over on the screen porch, so they will be outside, but protected. That way I KNOW they will have shelter, plenty of food, etc. Come spring, I will move em' outside and let nature take its course.)

[gs1]

:)

[pappy1264]

Thankfully none of my guys ever came down with this (Thank you, Lord!) They have grown into big, fat....err, fluffy big babies! They are SWEET as the day there born, still, too! I love them so much....and will enjoy them as they spend the winter here!