Divided Camps: Fox Valley v. Esbilac

[island rehabber]

I recently resigned from a small squirrels-only rehabber message board for the following reason: certain "famous", well-known rehabbers on that board were so firmly entrenched in the Pet Ag/Esbilac/MultiMilk method that they were completely intolerant of even the most diplomatic criticism of those products. Trust me, I was nowhere near as nasty about Pet Ag or Esbilac on that board as I am here :D, and yet I was trashed and flamed for daring to suggest that anyone throw out their calculators and chemistry sets and come down to Fox Valley!

The board owner actually asked me to stay, twice, but I told her I could not in good conscience be part of a rehabber community that was not putting the squirrels' welfare FIRST. :dono

[Ardilla]

How sad and disappointing.

[prncsbabs1]

I recently resigned from a small squirrels-only rehabber message board for the following reason: certain "famous", well-known rehabbers on that board were so firmly entrenched in the Pet Ag/Esbilac/MultiMilk method that they were completely intolerant of even the most diplomatic criticism of those products. Trust me, I was nowhere near as nasty about Pet Ag or Esbilac on that board as I am here :D, and yet I was trashed and flamed for daring to suggest that anyone throw out their calculators and chemistry sets and come down to Fox Valley!

The board owner actually asked me to stay, twice, but I told her I could not in good conscience be part of a rehabber community that was not putting the squirrels' welfare FIRST. :dono



:goodpost
Shame on them, for letting their ignorance control them.

[rygel1hardt]

Were these said rehabbers having bowel problems, bloating, no weight gain, or losses in their babies? If so and they continue to use pet ag products they should be horse whipped. Just my opinion mind ya. Im sure I would have left the group also just so I wouldnt have to read about all the sick squirrels and a bunch of idiots with their heads in the sand. I think my tolerance for human stupidity gets smaller every year. Stacey




I recently resigned from a small squirrels-only rehabber message board for the following reason: certain "famous", well-known rehabbers on that board were so firmly entrenched in the Pet Ag/Esbilac/MultiMilk method that they were completely intolerant of even the most diplomatic criticism of those products. Trust me, I was nowhere near as nasty about Pet Ag or Esbilac on that board as I am here :D, and yet I was trashed and flamed for daring to suggest that anyone throw out their calculators and chemistry sets and come down to Fox Valley!

The board owner actually asked me to stay, twice, but I told her I could not in good conscience be part of a rehabber community that was not putting the squirrels' welfare FIRST. :dono

[Legomom]

Were these said rehabbers having bowel problems, bloating, no weight gain, or losses in their babies? If so and they continue to use pet ag products they should be horse whipped. Just my opinion mind ya. Im sure I would have left the group also just so I wouldn't have to read about all the sick squirrels and a bunch of idiots with their heads in the sand. I think my tolerance for human stupidity gets smaller every year. Stacey

My thoughts exactly.

[astra]

ditto

[island rehabber]

Folks, you wouldn't believe the threads. I can't quote them because that would be unethical but let me do a satire for you, but it's not THAT far from the truth:

Esteemed Rehabber: I have been experiencing bloat, weight loss, diarrhea and general FTT symptoms in my 4-wk old babies since I got them as pinkies. Have diluted Esbilac 4:1, then 3.75:1, then added HWC (heavy whipping cream), and Zoologic. One squirrel is slightly better; three still have diarrhea. All are on Albon and SMP-TMZ in case this is parasites although fecal smears show nothing. Should I go to MultiMilk or full-fat yogurt at this point?

At what point do you want to grab her by the throat, shake her soundly and scream: FOX VALLEY, YOU IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHY would you pump babies with seventeen different things because you don't know what the hell is wrong with them when we all know it's the ESBILAC?

The final straw for me was when a new member came on saying they took in a baby who'd been rescued by a member of the public and fed on Just Born for a week. Soon as this rehabber switched her over to Esbilac the baby presented with "pale yellow, bubbly diarrhea....:" Of course she was thinking bugs, germs, worms, and everything else so I came on and said "I believe it's the Esbilac...the yellow bubbly diarrhea is a typical symptom." With that, Esteemed Rehabber Person jumped in and demanded to know WHERE I got such data, HOW do intend to prove that Esbilac is the ONLY THING that could ever cause such a symptom, and WHERE are my charts and fecal analyses to prove it? You would think I called her mother a whore and she wanted me to prove what street I saw her walking on.......:shakehead

Are these people getting huge discounts from Pet Ag? Call me a cynic but I always follow the money.....and these chicks have big rehab operations that do hundreds of squirrels per year.....hmmmm.......:dono

[Baxied]

I am finding that the rehabbers here knew nothing of Fox Valley until I brought it up to them. (Of course, I only knew about it because of ya'll here at the board.) One of the rehabbers was willing to make a change, but the other is firmly entrenched in the Esbilac camp.:secret Don't tell her that I switched the babies to FV as soon as I got them!!!:tilt

I would use FV for the fact that it smells much better and mixes easier if nothing else!

[stosh2010]

Change cannot be made without inconvenience...and some folks perfer the Status Quo to the challenge of Learning Something New ( and BETTER)
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
Stosh >>> Keeper of the KING ( of Costa Rica )

[Kelly Brady]

If only they would open their minds to the fact that the changes in Esbilac have made this dramatic difference for the well being of the baby.

People in general are very resistant to change aren't they? Poor babies suffer in the mean time.:shakehead

[Hannah]

island rehabber,

This sounds frustrating.

I can't help but think that if you and a rehabber using Esbilac would present their results -- weight gain, incidents of illness, etc. -- in some common format, they could be compared objectively. Assuming everything else the rehabbers do is similar, and the condition you receive the animals is, on average, similar, it's a nice experiment.

Of course, I don't know these people, so I don't know if a lack of evidence is preventing them from switching, and I'm sure you've presented some evidence already. If people are stubborn enough, all the data in the world won't help, I suppose.

[JLM27]

Peter, to do your experiment IR would have to get data from the wobbly-minded, wooly-headed people that insist on giving their innocent babies Esbilac. Anything else would be unethical. BUT, IR and others here could keep their clinical records in a standard format so that compiling such data on the FV babies would be easy. Daily weight, episodes of diarrhea, amount of FV, any additives, etc.

[JLM27]

IR, do any of these people have small heads with beady eyes?

[island rehabber]

IR, do any of these people have small heads with beady eyes?

Every one of 'em, I'm sure.......:D

"Hey! I like it! That's a new look for ya....."
Beetlejuice, to guy with shrunken head in Waiting Room

[stosh2010]

Every one of 'em, I'm sure.......:D

"Hey! I like it! That's a new look for ya....."
Beetlejuice, to guy with shrunken head in Waiting Room

For Those who Aren't Michael Keaton Fans...
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????
Stosh >>> Keeper of the KING ( of Costa Rica)

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

Just talked to a newbie yesterday that is under the permit of one of these esbilac people and she is so at a loss. This is her second year and she just started using the new esbilac this year and was told how to mix it but none of the new issues (last year she used the old version all year because she got a 5 lb. tub in the spring and it lasted). So, she called me yesterday because she has a baby bunny with issues (the other rehabber she is working under doesn't do bunnies, so she is pretty much on her own with those). Little tyke weighs just 42 grams and has had his eyes open for 4 days (should be 70 or even 80 grams by now). She wanted to know how much to feed and I told her at least 3 ccs 3 times a day, that's what I would tube to them at that size. Well, she has been feeding 3-4 ccs 4 times a day and he is only gaining maybe 1 gram a day on a good day. So, I asked what she is feeding (I thought she was using FV) and she said Esbilac :sanp3. I told her I was surprised the baby was still alive because since they changed the formula, I have had nothing but issues. She didn't know the formula had changed :shakehead. I asked if she had had any growth issues with her squirrel babies. She then told me that yes indeed, for some reason all the babies had been small this year and slow growing and asked if I had that issue. She also had a baby with a prolapsed anus and many with diarrhea issues of all sorts :shakehead.

I told her I had similar issues last fall after switching to the new Esbilac and that I switched to Zoologic 33/40 mixed with Fox Valley this year and everyone has been doing great, gaining weight and no major diarrhea issues (for some reason my squirrels always tend to go through a stage with soft poop when they are like 2-3 weeks old, but other than that, no issues). She told me she would give the other stuff a try since the Esbilac wasn't working for her.

We will see, I can't really advise her on the bunny if she is unwilling to change what she is doing, so hopefully she gets the right stuff and it isn't too late for the bunny. Her bunny looks just like my squirrels last fall though, they just don't grow. They aren't skinny, but just so small because they aren't getting everything they need. It is sad how many people are using Esbilac still. The poor babies.

[island rehabber]

Ugh, that makes me SO sad, SR&B2......
You would be shocked at who are the mindless followers of this Esbilac thing....they are "pillars of the rehabber society" :shakehead .....

stosh -- thank you - -that is GREAT!! :jump

[4skwerlz]

Never let facts get in the way of entrenched beliefs, right? :shakehead

I've been getting lots of calls from sq finders (I try to send them to TSB and some of them do end up here; some aren't interested in a forum I guess). In almost every case where they're using Esbilac, there have been problems w/ diarrhea & lack of weight gain even using the premixed, which seems to negate the theory that you just need to soak it longer.:dono

IR, maybe you had more effect than you realize on that board.....I've had QUITE the influx of new rehabber customers lately ordering FV, and they're not TSB folks either.... :thinking In fact, they sold me out of FV, then did it again, and again. So I'm doubling my order to Nick, again. So the good word is spreading! :thumbsup

[mpetys]

What is the benefit to these rehabbers to stick with Ebsilac? Are they getting some discounts from the manufacturer or something? I can understand if a rehabber was lucky and had no problems at all with Ebsilac, not wanting to change. But my goodness, at least open your eyes to the information out there about the problems that other rehabbers experienced and take that into consideration. Especially now that PetAg came out with a comment that Ebsilac was not meant for wildlife that such a use was an "off-label" use.

To me, it seems that if you are thinking of the welfare of the animal first (let's say a squirrel :D ), you would be open to the possibility that a formula that was specifically created for squirrels might be better than a product that there have been reported problems and that the manufacturer even now states that it was not meant for wildlife and such a use is an "off-label" use. If you were unwilling to consider that Fox Valley might be a better product then wouldn't you have to consider that it was at least, an equal product, and agree to disagree?

I can't speak expertly about the differences between the two products. I just know that I lost three babies last January and the fourth seemed to be destined to their same fate. Fortunately, I was advised to order some Fox Valley and have it overnighted to me to try to save this last baby. I thought this last baby was too far gone, having just lost his three brothers over the previous two days, but, once on the Fox Valley, slowly but surely, he made a recovery and raising that baby (my MonkeyButt) was a piece of cake.

I am so glad that when I needed help and reached out to a rehabber, it was one who was enlightened and recommended Fox Valley to me. Otherwise, I don't think MonkeyButt would be alive today.

Michele in Tampa

[wheezer]

Yet another reason you,IR, are TOPS in my book:bowdown :bowdown

I know you have helped a lot of squirrels, bless you for going through all the negativity:grouphug :grouphug

(To SABT, we alwayed used KMR (kitten formula) at the rehab center where I worked for bunnies. That did OK but we had to add "Ben e Bac" that "upped"
the survival rate. It is made by Pet Ag. I guess Fox Valley makes kitten formula, I bet it is better too:) )

[island rehabber]

Otherwise, I don't think MonkeyButt would be alive today.

Michele in Tampa

And, having squidged him and squidged him some more when he was just a baby in Tampa, I am personally very glad that he is. :D :Love_Icon

[grinn75]

I thought I had read some posts on here recently of people who had similar issues with Fox Valley? :dono Maybe I misread.

[island rehabber]

Interesting Update on this Issue:
This morning I saw a post on yet another VERY SERIOUS wildlife rehabilitation list regarding the "Formula issue with squirrels". (This is one of those lstsrv's where you cannot even make a joke without being flamed to a crisp. SR&B2, you know which one I mean.) Guess what? The exact same pillars of rehabbing society that I mentioned above are on THAT board, with a little survey! They want to know what kind of water everyone uses to mix their formula for baby squirrels. I guess their new approach is, there is nothing wrong with Esbilac, it's everyone's dang water systems......???

:thinking :shakehead :soapbox :bash:madd:hissyfit

[island rehabber]

I thought I had read some posts on here recently of people who had similar issues with Fox Valley? :dono Maybe I misread.

You did read some posts about babies bloating or getting diarrhea on Fox Valley when switched over to it, grinn. I am sure that there will always be babies who don't do well on one formula or the other, and no formula is as perfect as mamma's milk. However, if I'm not mistaken the issues with FV were temporary and have been resolved. (Please correct me if I'm wrong!)

[grinn75]

You did read some posts about babies bloating or getting diarrhea on Fox Valley when switched over to it, grinn. I am sure that there will always be babies who don't do well on one formula or the other, and no formula is as perfect as mamma's milk. However, if I'm not mistaken the issues with FV were temporary and have been resolved. (Please correct me if I'm wrong!)

I guess the moral of the story is a "good" rehabber is always open-minded and will do what's best for the animal. :thumbsup
Glad we have so many good rehabbers on here. :D You guys rock!:brock

[Squirrel-lover]

I guess Esbilac is a kind of comfort zone for some rehabbers! My baby had runny poops with Esbilac and he was dehydrated so I had to give him Sub qs after changing to Fox Valey he is jumpy bumpy and no runny poops, he is putting up almost 15 grams everyday:)

[I Love Lucy]

I was one of Esbilac's biggest fans and rehabbed over 120 squirrels on it in the last 3 1/2 years. When I heard about the problems it caused I never looked back and switched to Fox Valley. I was very fortunate because I was able to finish an entire season on the old stuff. It was not worth the risks to stay with Esbilac.

I have had adjustment issues switching to Fox Valley but as rehabbers we have to keep an open mind. Every formula has limitations and may require tweaking for certain babies. We have to take in to consideration that every baby is different and formula contents vary depending on water source. For these rehabbers to deny the evidence against Esbilac and cause suffering and death is inexcusable.

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

You did read some posts about babies bloating or getting diarrhea on Fox Valley when switched over to it, grinn. I am sure that there will always be babies who don't do well on one formula or the other, and no formula is as perfect as mamma's milk. However, if I'm not mistaken the issues with FV were temporary and have been resolved. (Please correct me if I'm wrong!)

I was the biggesst Fox Valley hater there ever was before Esbilac changed their formula and I did hang on longer than I should have to the Esbilac. I tried and tried to tweak it, but the babies just weren't growing like they should. I didn't lose any, but they took over twice as long to grow up and seemed more fragile. I finally did get up the nerve to try Fox Valley again though, and had great luck.

I personally cannot use straight fox valley on pinkies, they bloat every time. But I cannot use Esbilac either and that stuff was so bad, I wasn't even willing to mix it with anything else. So, I decided to try Fox Valley mixed with Zoologic 33/40 and I absolutely LOVE that mix, my babies are just as healthy as they ever were on Esbilac.

The switch was not easy at all for me and I was sooooooooooooooo worried and not sure what to do, but I couldn't just keep going with the Esbilac. I can't imagine what would keep anyone using Esbilac when they are having so many issues.

IR: I did see the survey, I actually took it :). My results should throw them for a loop. Not the one that posted it but the other one who I held/still do hold a very high opinion of is the one that is leading all the local rehabbers to the esbilac even though they are having issues. The one in Ohio (won't mention names :) ) is the one that says esbilac is now better than ever and my issue is that I mix it at 2:1 and you need to mix it 1:1 with .5 parts heavy cream. That mixture is goo and with all the issues with the watered down formula, I can't imagine the issues that that stuff would cause.

[I Love Lucy]

SRBT - What ratio of Fox Valley and Zoologic do you use for pinkies? I only had 1 pinky this spring but he was wrinkly and scrawny, not plump like when I used the old Esbilac. He didn't gain weight for about 10 days. I called IR in a panic because I was new to FV and she recommended adding Boost which did help. I bought Zoo but haven't tried it yet. I don't have any babies right now but when I do I'm going to try using bottled water versus my tap water. I have hard well water with a high mineral content and I truly believe that certain elements in water can create absorption and dilution issues.

[NicoleVa]

I personally cannot use straight fox valley on pinkies, they bloat every time. But I cannot use Esbilac either and that stuff was so bad, I wasn't even willing to mix it with anything else. So, I decided to try Fox Valley mixed with Zoologic 33/40 and I absolutely LOVE that mix, my babies are just as healthy as they ever were on Esbilac.


Do you think as a baby grows their ability to digest changes? I raised my girl for 3 wks on the Esbilac with OK poops - a little pasty but certainly not diarreah, then suddenly she just started blowing water diarreah! I had a hard time buying that all the sudden she's having a reaction to the Esbilac when she'd been doing sooooooooo well on it (I'm NOT saying/implying Esbilac is best! I got the Esbilac before I found this board and was following various other rehabbing sites) and gaining like a champ! I thought it must be a bug, but thankfully I was running out of the Esbilac anyway and had every intention of switching her to FV regardless once this (expensive!!!!) can of Esbilac ran out which is what I did. In TWO FEEDINGS the diarreah was COMPLETELY cured and the next morning her cage was FULL of pellet poopies!!!!! :wahoo I couldn't believe it! I just didn't understand why it would take 3wks for her to wake up one day with this reaction?? So maybe as their systems mature it can become an issue??? Has anyone else noticed this with pinkies? (my girl was a pinkie to start with) :thinking

Smiles
Nicole and Gracie