Questions about MBD. Need Help.

[brandonn678]

Sorry that this will be a little long winded but I wanted to get all the facts out there. Me and my wife rescued a squirrel in March of 2009. She ended up having a malloclusion due to her fall from the tree. We had to have her upper incisors pulled in October due to the malloclusion. We have kept her on the same diet for the last 12 months or more with no issues, but on Wednesday she started acting lethargic and wanting to stay in her bed. She seemed to have a little fever and was breathing heavy. When I get her out of her bed, she doesn't want to stay up and wants to go down on her back legs. What she will eat(avacado and banana), I have to put it on the tip of my finger and give it to her. After reading all the posts on mbd, I immediately started he on the treatment with tums. I took her to the a veterinarian that does rehabilitation of squirrels the next day and we discussed the diet and he said that he believes she has MBD due to her not really ever getting exposure to sunlight to be able to absorb the vitamin D3 and calcium. He also gave me an antibiotic just incase it could be a urinary tract infection. I spoke with her normal vet on friday and he said he didnt think she should have MBD, but also had told me in the past that she did not need sunlight. She has not started having seizures or paralysis. She will walk around if I get her out of her cage, but in her cage she just wants to lay in her bed. She seems stronger in her leg muscles after the last couple days of treatment and exposure to a full spectrum light, but still wants to lay in her bed and refuses to eat unless forced to. Is it possible that all of a sudden after a year and a half that she developed MBD? Also what is the timeframe that I should see improvement? Is there any more recommendations for treatment? I want her to feel better.
Thanks

[4skwerlz]

If your squirrel hasn't been eating some kind of rodent block, she could certainly have MBD. Most vets don't realize that squirrels have very high calcium requirements; MBD is very common in pet squirrels. Below is our treatment for MBD. It is very important that you follow these instructions, and that you check back in regularly so we can monitor her progress. Squirrels often improve dramatically after beginning treatment, but this doesn't mean the MBD is cured. To be cured, the squirrel must regrow bone, and that takes many months.


Emergency Treatment for MBD

Get calcium into the squirrel IMMEDIATELY, not later, not tomorrow, NOW.
Delaying treatment can cause death or permanent paralysis.

You will need:
-Tums, rolaids, or calcium supplement (any kind)
-a syringe or spoon
Crush one pill and add a little water or fruit juice to make a paste. Use the syringe or spoon to force-feed the mixture, a little at a time, until it is all gone. The first day, give a total of 600-800 mg of calcium, spread throughout the day/night to maintain blood calcium levels.

Important!

1. Any kind of calcium pill is okay for the initial dose. But you must use PLAIN calcium pills (without Vit D) from then on.
2. Try to give many small doses of calcium throughout the day/night to keep blood calcium levels as steady as possible.
3. If seizures or paralysis worsen or return, give another emergency dose, but only for one day, and make sure you check back in to TSB for help as relapses can be very serious.

The acute symptoms (weakness, lethargy, seizures, paralysis) will usually improve within a few hours, but this does not mean the squirrel is cured. It will take many months to rebuild the calcium in the bones. (See the "Long-Term Treatment for MBD" http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...321#post487321)

More Tips
MBD causes brittle bones that break easily. Try to keep your squirrel confined to a small cage and away from high places, where he might jump and break a bone.

Heat is very soothing for a squirrel with MBD. A heating pad turned to low and placed so they cannot chew the pad or cord, or a rice buddy (a sock filled with dry rice/beans and microwaved for about 20 seconds) will work.


Long-Term Treatment for MBD

The next step to curing MBD is to fix the diet.

1. Remove ALL seeds, nuts, corn, and treats.

2. Follow the Healthy Diet For Pet Squirrels, which can be found at the top of the “Squirrel Nutrition” forum. (http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=16093)
Your squirrel MUST eat rodent block or squirrel blocks every day. If your squirrel doesn't like rodent blocks, you can try crushing them up with peanut butter or avocado temporarily. You can either buy them or make your own squirrel blocks using the recipe at the top of the Squirrel Nutrition forum.

3. In addition to the Healthy Diet, you will need to continue giving extra calcium every day for several weeks. Use a syringe or spoon, or you can try putting the calcium on a small piece of fruit.
Week 1: calcium = 500 mg per day
Week 2: calcium = 250 mg per day
Weeks 3-8: calcium = 100 mg per day
If acute symptoms—weakness, lethargy, seizures, paralysis—return at any time, you will need to give another emergency dose of calcium.

More Tips
MBD causes brittle bones that break easily. Try to keep your squirrel confined to a small cage and away from high places, where he might jump and break a bone.

Heat is very soothing for a squirrel with MBD. A heating pad turned to low and placed so they cannot chew the pad or cord, or a rice buddy (a sock filled with dry rice/beans and microwaved for about 20 seconds) will work.

[brandonn678]

Is a heating pad too much for the summertime? I dont want her to overheat. Her breathing has came back to what appears to be normal, but she doesnt want to eat. Is that normal with MBD? She weighs just over 500 grams. I have been having to feed her some baby food in order to keep her hydrated and keep food in her. What is the minimum amount she needs to eat in a day?

[4skwerlz]

Is a heating pad too much for the summertime? I dont want her to overheat. Her breathing has came back to what appears to be normal, but she doesnt want to eat. Is that normal with MBD? She weighs just over 500 grams. I have been having to feed her some baby food in order to keep her hydrated and keep food in her. What is the minimum amount she needs to eat in a day?

One of the first symptoms of MBD is loss of appetite....then lethargy, sleeping a lot, reluctance to jump and climb, seeming sore or achy, strange behavior (jumpy, frightened, aggressive), weakness in the hind legs, then finally hind-end paralysis, seizures, coma, and death. Some squirrels show all the symptoms; some present with seizures as an apparent first symptom.

Once you get her blood calcium levels up, her appetite should improve. So the first thing is to dose her with calcium throughout the day as directed in the instructions. Keep her hydrated with plain water, or with fruit juice mixed with water. The heating pad should be placed under half of her sleeping area so that she can't chew the pad or the cord, and so she can choose whether she wants heat or not. Baby food is fine for right now; whatever she will eat; you can put the calcium in it if she will eat it. As her appetite improves over the next few days, you can work on getting her to eat more healthy foods. For now, no nuts or seeds whatsoever, as these are high in phosphorus and will take calcium from her body.

Right now it is the calcium that will save her life.

Call me any time; my phone number is on my website.

[brandonn678]

Does it sould like i have caught it early enough to be able to reverse the condition?

[4skwerlz]

Does it sould like i have caught it early enough to be able to reverse the condition?

Her survival will depend on you.

1. Follow the instructions closely.
2. Small frequent doses are better than 2 or 3 large doses.
3. Watch closely for any return or worsening of symptoms.
4. Be prepared to dose calcium immediately if that happens.
5. Keep us posted daily so we can adjust dosage as needed.
6. Work on her diet.
7. Don't go away after 1-2 weeks because you think she's cured. This will take several months, at least!

Do all of this and she has a good chance.:thumbsup

[brandonn678]

Well she seems to be doing a little better tonight. She is up and moving around a little bit and seems to have some more energy than earlier today. She still seems weak and not herself though, and wants to lay in her bed and voices her opinion about me getting her out of her bed. I managed to get her to eat a pretty good bit of food by putting it on the end of my finger and offering it to her. Is there anything I can give her to help get her energy back other than what I am already doing? Thanks for the help.

[Gina]

:Welcome
You are getting the best possible advise and my strongest suggestion is to follow everything to the "T" and fast. My Garth started out much the same way and vet thought it was everything EXCEPT MBD.

P.S. What is her name? Can you post pictures????

[brandonn678]

We named her "Squirrely" when we found her. Her improvement overnight is a difference in night and day. She's still not back to her normal "hyper self", but she is at least out moving around a lot inside her cage and was feeling good enough to play a little. She isn't staying in her bed all day now. She is not having trouble anymore with her nails on my clothes. Her breathing is back to normal. It doesn't appear that she has a fever anymore. And she seems to have most of her appetite back although she is being picky about what she wants to eat. :wahoo Thanks for the helpful information. I have attached a picture of her. I will try to post more later.

[4skwerlz]

I'm so glad to hear Squirrely is better. How much calcium have you given her over the past 24 hours, and in how many doses? We may need to increase a bit.

[brandonn678]

I have been giving her 4 to 5 doses a day totaling about 600mg calcium. I have been using tums for calcium. That is fine right? The tums bottle doesnt say it contains anything but calcium. Also my veterinarian i took her to said to get the liquid calcium that they give to cattle at tractor supply but I am not sure what ratio to give her if I swap to that. It is liquid calcium gluconate at 23% solution.

[4skwerlz]

I have been giving her 4 to 5 doses a day totaling about 600mg calcium. I have been using tums for calcium. That is fine right? The tums bottle doesnt say it contains anything but calcium. Also my veterinarian i took her to said to get the liquid calcium that they give to cattle at tractor supply but I am not sure what ratio to give her if I swap to that. It is liquid calcium gluconate at 23% solution.

Don't use the liquid calcium; it actually contains very little elemental calcium. Tums are fine. What symptoms does she have right now?

[brandonn678]

Other that being less hyper than normal, the only thing I can notice is that when she sits on her back legs to eat something, she is still having a little trouble balancing.

[4skwerlz]

Other that being less hyper than normal, the only thing I can notice is that when she sits on her back legs to eat something, she is still having a little trouble balancing.

Let's try increasing the overall daily dose to 700 mg spread over 4-5 doses. Let me know if you see improvement. That will be basically twice the normal daily requirement of calcium for a healthy squirrel. This will support her blood calcium levels, plus extra calcium to rebuild her bones. After one week, we can reassess her progress and dosage.

It takes more than calcium to rebuild bones; it takes the whole spectrum of vitamins/minerals. This means you must get her eating some kind of rodent block. If she refuses to eat blocks, you'll have to make her a nutrition shake with vits/mins/protein and feed it to her with a syringe.

Very important also: You need to keep her from being able to jump or fall. MBD makes their bones very weak and Squirrely could break a limb, or even her spine, from the trauma of normal jumping. If she has a tall cage, you will need to pad the bottom thickly (a quilt or blanket works well). If there are branches or shelves in her cage, you should either remove them or pad them too. If she has a room in your house to play in, you will need to lay down quilts on the floor and remove anything she can jump up on and possibly fall from, like curtains or shelves.

[brandonn678]

She is in a lengthwise cage that is only 18" tall. I closed off the tall portion of her cage so she is confined to this shorter one. By rodent block do you mean a rodent mineral wheel/block? If not what kind should i get for her? Remember that she is not able to eat anything that is large due to not having upper incisors. I have to cut all her food up into small enough bites that she can eat them with her back teeth.

[4skwerlz]

She is in a lengthwise cage that is only 18" tall. I closed off the tall portion of her cage so she is confined to this shorter one. By rodent block do you mean a rodent mineral wheel/block? If not what kind should i get for her? Remember that she is not able to eat anything that is large due to not having upper incisors. I have to cut all her food up into small enough bites that she can eat them with her back teeth.

No, not a mineral block. If she can't eat hard foods, then you will need to make her a daily nutrition shake for the rest of her life. I sell the vitamin/mineral mix in powdered form and also the protein powder on my website, and there's a recipe for the nutrition shake on the label. Or I can give you the recipe and ingredients list and you can buy the ingredients locally.

[brandonn678]

She is able to eat hard foods, I just have to break it up for her. Could I get rodent blocks and break them up small enough for her to eat instead of doing the shakes? Where is the best place to get the rodent blocks?

[Gina]

She is adorable!! You will find we can never get enough pics of these cutie pies. Happy to hear the treatment is already starting to help her out. Keep following the advice you are getting - so easy for them to relapse.

[4skwerlz]

She is able to eat hard foods, I just have to break it up for her. Could I get rodent blocks and break them up small enough for her to eat instead of doing the shakes? Where is the best place to get the rodent blocks?

Yes, you could break up the blocks. You could try KayTee FortiDiet, which you can find at PetCo, just to see if she will eat them. Let us know!

[brandonn678]

She is back to her normal hyper self now :thankyou I have upped the dosage like you said. She is doing 100% better. I got the kaytee FortiDiet blocks and crunched up one and fed it to her and she ate the whole thing :wahoo Her appetite is back up and she is able to balance and stand on her back legs and hold food in her hands. Tomorrow I have to work so i am going to have to give her a larger dose in the morning right before I leave for work and give her another dose when I get home. It is getting more difficult to get her to take the calcium. They are too smart for their own good. She knows when it is on her food and she can taste it in the juice and the baby food. I guess I will just have to keep forcing her to take it for now. Thanks for all the help and suggestions. Is one rodent block good enought for each day? By the way... all the symptoms are gone now but you bet I am not going to get off this program. I don't need another scare like this!

[4skwerlz]

She is back to her normal hyper self now :thankyou I have upped the dosage like you said. She is doing 100% better. I got the kaytee FortiDiet blocks and crunched up one and fed it to her and she ate the whole thing :wahoo Her appetite is back up and she is able to balance and stand on her back legs and hold food in her hands. Tomorrow I have to work so i am going to have to give her a larger dose in the morning right before I leave for work and give her another dose when I get home. It is getting more difficult to get her to take the calcium. They are too smart for their own good. She knows when it is on her food and she can taste it in the juice and the baby food. I guess I will just have to keep forcing her to take it for now. Thanks for all the help and suggestions. Is one rodent block good enought for each day? By the way... all the symptoms are gone now but you bet I am not going to get off this program. I don't need another scare like this!

Excellent! :thumbsup Right now you'll want to keep her on this dosage since that seems to have stabilized her, i.e., she's acting normal. If at any time you see even a small return of any symptom, give her an extra 100 mg, and then come here and let us know! (We might have to readjust dosing schedule.)

Okay, her not getting a dosage of calcium in the middle of the day is a problem....8-9 hours might be too long. Is there ANY way you can slip home for lunch and dose her? Or is there anyone else who could give her a noon dose? The easiest way to dose the calcium is to mix it up with some peanut butter or almond butter and roll it into a little ball. They usually eat them with no problem. Another good way to dose calcium is with avocado....it's like squirrel crack! They love it! If there is no way to give her a noontime dosage, then try this: Before you leave for work, make up a salad of mixed greens and veggies and lightly sprinkle her noon dosage of calcium all over it. Leave this for her with no other foods. She will probably nibble the salad throughout the day and so she won't be without calcium for too long.

She can have 2-4 blocks per day. Here's a good feeding schedule:

Breakfast: Calcium ball (nut butter or avocado). Very important to give calcium first thing in the morning as this preloads her system with calcium.
Before you leave for work: Give her 2 rodent blocks and the calcium-laced salad...with no other foods.
When you get home from work: Calcium ball plus another rodent block.
Evening snack: In addition to her calcium dose, another rodent block. If she doesn't eat it, leave it in her cage. If she wakes up hungry, she can eat it.

Try to give her a late-night calcium dose too....frequent, small doses are best.

You're doing a fantastic job! :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup Keep us posted every day if you can, even if it's just to say that she's doing fine. We really need to monitor her very closely for the next few weeks. If you can get her through the next month with no return of symptoms, the chance of a deadly relapse starts to become a little less. In a couple of weeks, we can try slowly ramping down the dosage.

Like I said, you can call me any time if you have questions or concerns.

[brandonn678]

She still seems fine today. It is getting harder to get her to take the calcium without forcing her to take it. When its on food she can smell it and doesn't eat it. Even in peanut butter or avacado. I guess for now I will just have to keep making her take it by syringe. Mixing it in the greens today seemed to work a little but she didn't eat it all. She ate just a little over one of the rodent blocks today, but seems full and doesnt really want to eat any more right now. I guess she hasn't gotten her full appetite back just yet. I was able to get her to eat a few small peanut balls tonight..maybe she coming around to them. I am using the berry flavored tums, is there any other ones that they seem to like more?

[4skwerlz]

She still seems fine today. It is getting harder to get her to take the calcium without forcing her to take it. When its on food she can smell it and doesn't eat it. Even in peanut butter or avacado. I guess for now I will just have to keep making her take it by syringe. Mixing it in the greens today seemed to work a little but she didn't eat it all. She ate just a little over one of the rodent blocks today, but seems full and doesnt really want to eat any more right now. I guess she hasn't gotten her full appetite back just yet. I was able to get her to eat a few small peanut balls tonight..maybe she coming around to them. I am using the berry flavored tums, is there any other ones that they seem to like more?

Try the unflavored tums; or get some plain calcium pills at the drugstore (without Vit D added). Plain calcium is tasteless; it might be the artificial berry flavor she doesn't like.

[brandonn678]

Ok I will pick some up tomorrow and give them a try. She did have a little trouble getting her nails out of my shirt tonight, but I think it is because her nails are long because she seems like she is plenty strong enough in her legs now.

[4skwerlz]

Ok I will pick some up tomorrow and give them a try. She did have a little trouble getting her nails out of my shirt tonight, but I think it is because her nails are long because she seems like she is plenty strong enough in her legs now.

Then give her a 100 mg dose extra. Any return of symptoms. The not eating her block is also a symptom. Tomorrow, if she only eats, say, half of her calcium-sprinkled veggies, you'll want to make up the calcium she didn't eat in her first dose when you get home from work.

I forgot, I think there is a chocolate tums that folks say squirrels really like.

PM me your name and address and I'll send you a packet of pure calcium carbonate powder.

Most squirrel love fruit and you can try dosing on a piece of melon, strawberry, etc.

[brandonn678]

I gave her another dose of calcium and will see how that does. I will post another response in the AM to let you know how she is doing.
Thanks again for all the help.

[brandonn678]

This morning she seemed to be doing good. She took her calcium drink without too much complaint or struggle. Once I put the plate in the cage, she went straight to the greens mixed with calcium and started eating a few of them. I just hope she saved some for later today. I thinks with the rodent blocks that she just doesnt like the taste. She seems to eat other foods just doesn't go straight for the blocks. She hasnt ever really ate the rodent blocks. We attemped giving them to her last year before her teeth were removed and she didnt care for them then. It has always been the fruits and veggies that she has eaten in the past and it may take a little while to get her accustomed to eating these. I will let you know what amount she eats today. I mixed calcium in with a little avacado and placed it on he plate as well as some small peanut balls. As long as she doesn't eat it all at once, she should have plenty to last her through the day today.

[4skwerlz]

This morning she seemed to be doing good. She took her calcium drink without too much complaint or struggle. Once I put the plate in the cage, she went straight to the greens mixed with calcium and started eating a few of them. I just hope she saved some for later today. I thinks with the rodent blocks that she just doesnt like the taste. She seems to eat other foods just doesn't go straight for the blocks. She hasnt ever really ate the rodent blocks. We attemped giving them to her last year before her teeth were removed and she didnt care for them then. It has always been the fruits and veggies that she has eaten in the past and it may take a little while to get her accustomed to eating these. I will let you know what amount she eats today. I mixed calcium in with a little avacado and placed it on he plate as well as some small peanut balls. As long as she doesn't eat it all at once, she should have plenty to last her through the day today.

Sounds good. I'm sending you everything you need to treat her, including some Henry's Healthy Blocks, which hopefully she'll like better.

[brandonn678]

Everything is going good today except for one thing. After feeding her some avacado with 200mg calcium mixed in, she threw up a little bit, but almost instantly she went back to her plate and started eating again with no problems so far. Could the calcium be getting to her stomach? Her stools still look fine and she is acting normal.

[4skwerlz]

Everything is going good today except for one thing. After feeding her some avacado with 200mg calcium mixed in, she threw up a little bit, but almost instantly she went back to her plate and started eating again with no problems so far. Could the calcium be getting to her stomach? Her stools still look fine and she is acting normal.

Perhaps the avocado was too fatty. Was it ripe? and did you remove the skin and pit? Haven't heard of throwing up from calcium, but of course anything's possible. I'm glad she's acting normal otherwise.... Are there any other additives to the calcium you're giving her now? Check the label.

[brandonn678]

Here are the ingredients:
Cellulose, croscarmellose, cellulose coating, titanium dioxide color, vegetable magnesium stearate, medium chain triglycerides, FD&C yellow no.5 lake, FD&C blue no.1 lake. I rinse the coating off before crunching the tablets up so that I remove most all of the coloring and cellulose. She has never thrown up since I have had her for the past year and a half. But apparently she is ok if she went right back to the food and hasn't had any issues. It has been over an hour and she hasn't had any more issues. Hopefully all is well. I will keep you posted if she has any more problems.

[4skwerlz]

Hmmm....were those ingredients for the Tums or the coral calcium? I don't know why they have to include so many additives. Calcium does reduce stomach acid, so perhaps she couldn't digest the fatty avocado. Perhaps it would be better to give her calcium in a peanut butter ball rather than avocado. If there's any repeat of stomach upset/vomiting, let us know right away. Glad she seemed to go back to normal right away.

[brandonn678]

Well there have not been any more issues with upset stomach. I ended up having to make a normal plate of healthy veggies tonight for her because she just doesn't want to eat much of the rodent block. I did give her a larger dose of calcium when I got home today because I noticed her nails sticking to my shirt. I really believe some of that is due to her hails being too long because the usually get trimmed by now and they seem extra long and sharp. She will be due for her teeth and nail trimming in a couple of weeks so I will get the x-ray then to determine bone density. Having a low calcium level shouldn't have any adverse effects on the anesthesia should it or vice-versa? By the way she is still very active and playful so I think all is still going well.
Thanks

[4skwerlz]

Well there have not been any more issues with upset stomach. I ended up having to make a normal plate of healthy veggies tonight for her because she just doesn't want to eat much of the rodent block. I did give her a larger dose of calcium when I got home today because I noticed her nails sticking to my shirt. I really believe some of that is due to her hails being too long because the usually get trimmed by now and they seem extra long and sharp. She will be due for her teeth and nail trimming in a couple of weeks so I will get the x-ray then to determine bone density. Having a low calcium level shouldn't have any adverse effects on the anesthesia should it or vice-versa? By the way she is still very active and playful so I think all is still going well.
Thanks

You will definitely want her to be stabilized in terms of blood calcium before going under anesthesia. In fact, I would delay it for at least a few weeks if possible. She doesn't need any more stress on her heart and other organs. Some of our rehabbers have a lot of experience with trimming teeth without anesthesia. It would be nice to get an x-ray to determine bone density, but risky if it requires anesthesia. Sometimes you can x-ray an awake squirrel by putting them in a sock with the top tied off and waiting until they're still enough to get an x-ray. You can trim her nails yourself with enough patience.

In short, I would get some advice from your vet and our rehabbers before having Squirrely put under anesthesia right now.

Glad her tummy is doing better. Hopefully she will like the Henry's blocks better than the other ones. In the meantime, try crushing the block with some peanut butter or other yummy food. Thanks for keeping us updated. :grouphug

[brandonn678]

Thanks for the info. I will hold off as long as her teeth will allow. How do most of the rehabbers trim the teeth because the veterinarian told me that using clippers causes tiny fractures in the tooth that can cause infection. He always trims them under anesthesia and with use of a dremel. Just an update:Squirrely is doing great today. She went crazy over the Henry's Healthy Blocks. She absolutely loves them. And since they are not completely hard she is able to break them up with her bottom teeth. :wahoo I will be placing an order for more of these soon. I am just so happy that she likes them because she could not stand the hardened blocks sold in the stores. Anyone who has a hard time getting their squirrels to eat healthy, these are for you. They smell just like a big pecan treat. I am so grateful for this forum and for all the help I have received while squirrely has been ill. Thanks to 4skwerlz for all the help and generosity. :thankyou Does she need to have the shake each day as well as the rodent blocks? I will post again tomorrow to keep you updated on how she is doing. I will also try to post some more pics of her as well. Thanks for all the help thusfar.
Brandon

[4skwerlz]

Thanks for the info. I will hold off as long as her teeth will allow. How do most of the rehabbers trim the teeth because the veterinarian told me that using clippers causes tiny fractures in the tooth that can cause infection. He always trims them under anesthesia and with use of a dremel. Just an update:Squirrely is doing great today. She went crazy over the Henry's Healthy Blocks. She absolutely loves them. And since they are not completely hard she is able to break them up with her bottom teeth. :wahoo I will be placing an order for more of these soon. I am just so happy that she likes them because she could not stand the hardened blocks sold in the stores. Anyone who has a hard time getting their squirrels to eat healthy, these are for you. They smell just like a big pecan treat. I am so grateful for this forum and for all the help I have received while squirrely has been ill. Thanks to 4skwerlz for all the help and generosity. :thankyou Does she need to have the shake each day as well as the rodent blocks? I will post again tomorrow to keep you updated on how she is doing. I will also try to post some more pics of her as well. Thanks for all the help thusfar.
Brandon

A lot of our rehabbers trim teeth with clippers. The vet is right that damage can be done, which is why you must use very expensive, German-steel jewelry snips. It's not very healthy to be anesthetized so often. Our member Jackie in Tampa has been clipping her squirrel Rocky's teeth for almost 7 years. She can give you great advice on that.

So glad Squirrely likes the HHBs.:thumbsup That will make your job so much easier. No, she doesn't need the shake in addition to the blocks; the shake is for any time, for whatever reason, she won't/can't eat the blocks. For example, after having her teeth trimmed she might need something soft to eat for a couple days.

Just 2-3 blockies per day, plus some healthy veggies (i.e., the Healthy Diet), plus her extra calcium, and you're good.:thumbsup

If Squirrely continues to do well (no symptoms) we can try a small ramp-down of the calcium next weekend. Weekend would be good I think, because you can watch for any return of symptoms.

So far, so good. Excellent job, Brandon.:thumbsup

[4skwerlz]

How is Squirrely today?

[brandonn678]

Sorry I haven't responded since saturday. I didn't really have internet access and was busy with tending to squirrely and yardwork. She is still doing good. I have been giving her around 750 to 800 mg calcium daily and she seems to be doing good. I was going to ask if you thought the blocks would hurt her upper gums since those incisors had been removed and she uses it to prise small pieces off of the rodent blocks to eat? If I break the blocks up she doesn't want them so I give them to her whole. It takes her a little time to work her way through them but she doesn't seem to be hurting and I visually looked at the gums and they don't look affected in any way. With her nails trimmed now she doesn't snag her nails on shirts anymore. I think they were just too long. She seemed to be a little overweight when this all started and it seems she is thinning down now. She doesn't appear to be too thin. Just normal. I might up the amount of diet food just to make sure she doesn't get too thin. What are your thoughts on that? I'm so glad she is still acting normal. It kills me to see her sick like she was. Thanks.

[4skwerlz]

Sorry I haven't responded since saturday. I didn't really have internet access and was busy with tending to squirrely and yardwork. She is still doing good. I have been giving her around 750 to 800 mg calcium daily and she seems to be doing good. I was going to ask if you thought the blocks would hurt her upper gums since those incisors had been removed and she uses it to prise small pieces off of the rodent blocks to eat? If I break the blocks up she doesn't want them so I give them to her whole. It takes her a little time to work her way through them but she doesn't seem to be hurting and I visually looked at the gums and they don't look affected in any way. With her nails trimmed now she doesn't snag her nails on shirts anymore. I think they were just too long. She seemed to be a little overweight when this all started and it seems she is thinning down now. She doesn't appear to be too thin. Just normal. I might up the amount of diet food just to make sure she doesn't get too thin. What are your thoughts on that? I'm so glad she is still acting normal. It kills me to see her sick like she was. Thanks.

Thanks for the update. If she's eating blocks with no pain or signs of problems, then great. She's probably prying off pieces and then using her molars to chew. It's a good thing; much harder to keep them healthy if they can't eat solids.

If her appetite is good and she was overweight before, then a little weight-loss is fine IMO.

Sounds like no more symptoms....what a relief. This is a large dose of calcium, but then her MBD is severe... As I mentioned before, at the two-week point, we will try a small step-down in dosage...around 100mg (as long as she continues to eat blocks). DO KEEP TRACK of exactly how much calcium you're giving. Otherwise, we can't step down accurately.

Glad to hear Squirrely is doing well...:thumbsup

[brandonn678]

She weighed 507 grams when her symptoms first started and I'd say she is probably down to maybe 450 to 470. She seems to want to eat about half of a block and ho hide it and once it dries out she doesn't want it. I am starting to cut the blocks in half and she doesn't seem to try to hide them as much and eats more of it. I wasn't happy with the amount of the blocks she ate today so I gave her a shake tonight. I am giving the higher dose of calcium because I know I'd rather give her too much(more than she can absorb) than too little. She hasn't had any adverse effects due to the high calcium other than a little lighter color of stool. All seems well. Thanks. Hopefully I am able to start the step down this weekend as another leap toward her recovery.

[4skwerlz]

Great. The shakes are handy "nutrition insurance" aren't they? The appetite is affected with MBD, so it can be a struggle to get the healthy stuff into them.

The light poos are probably from the calcium. Watch for constipation, but a little more fiber (veggies) usually takes care of that.

Also, do not give her any spinach. The oxalates react with calcium, preventing absorption.

You're doing just great. All sounds good, and if no more symptoms, we can try a ramp-down this weekend.
:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

[brandonn678]

For some reason I have been having trouble posting anything the past 2 days. It keeps logging me out. Anyways, Squirrely is doing good still and doesnt have any more symptoms. She is not wanting to eat much of the rodent blocks and seems that she would rather not eat than to eat them. I dont think it is her loss of appetite because she eats the veggies that I give her on her plate. She will eat maybe 1/4 of a block then go hide it and I have to unhide it and offer it to her to get her to eat a little more. I will let you know if I end up having to swap over to the shakes. They really can be little stinkers about eating the healthy stuff. Thanks for the help.

[4skwerlz]

Then try cutting the blocks into quarters. Give her 1/4, then a little later another. Don't give in and give her treats or nuts. Honestly it takes several weeks to get them used to the new diet, so stick with it. Try to have the same routine every day, e.g., 1/4 block for breakfast, leave her another 1/4 block plus veggies during the day, another 1/4 block when you get home, etc.

So glad to hear that there are no symptoms.:thumbsup Let us know when you start the ramp-down this weekend.

So far, so good!

[brandonn678]

All is still good. I have tried every way possible as far as dividing up the blocks. Today I cut it up into small 1/4" squares and she seemed to like to eat them that way. I will have to see how much she eats later when I get home. I did notice that when she urinates on a surface and it dries it leaves a white residue. I fugure this will be the excess calcium that her body can't absorb. She still seems very active and doesn't have any signs of any symptoms. Hopefully all still goes well and I will be able to start stepping down the dosage.

[4skwerlz]

Yes, the white residue is probably extra calcium. You can definitely try stepping down the dosage.

As long as she's nibbling the blocks, you're on the path to diet success.

[fungipami]

I'm curious about how wild squirrels get their calcium. I've read that they never get MBD. I know they get Vitamin D from sunshine, but where do they get calcium that is anywhere near the doses that are recommended for pet squirrels?

[4skwerlz]

I'm curious about how wild squirrels get their calcium. I've read that they never get MBD. I know they get Vitamin D from sunshine, but where do they get calcium that is anywhere near the doses that are recommended for pet squirrels?

Insects, bird eggshells, bones/antlers, calcium-rich wild plants like purslane. They also get minerals from nibbling soil.

[brandonn678]

Today I have started stepping down the calcium dosage to about 550 mg. broken up into 3 doses, one this morning, one around 2:30, and one more at about 9 tonight. she still does not have her full appetite back. Do squirrel's that have had mbd ever get their full appetite or energy back. I read a post that someone had a squirrel with mbd about a year ago and he wasn't as active as others. Just curious. I am having to make her the shakes in the evenings because she still doesn't eat much of the rodent blocks. I will update more in the morning.
Thanks

[4skwerlz]

Today I have started stepping down the calcium dosage to about 550 mg. broken up into 3 doses, one this morning, one around 2:30, and one more at about 9 tonight. she still does not have her full appetite back. Do squirrel's that have had mbd ever get their full appetite or energy back. I read a post that someone had a squirrel with mbd about a year ago and he wasn't as active as others. Just curious. I am having to make her the shakes in the evenings because she still doesn't eat much of the rodent blocks. I will update more in the morning.
Thanks

Yes, in most cases they should get their full appetite and energy back, although rarely there can be permanent nerve damage and perhaps other lingering problems.

In fact, once you determine the proper dosage of calcium, an MBD squirrel should be acting 90% normal almost immediately. If not, that can be a sign the dosage needs to be adjusted.

I am working with another MBD squirrel right now (offline) with severe disease (paralysis of the tail, complete loss of appetite, severe lethargy, unable to climb, etc.), and once we found the magic dose (not too much and not too little), which took about 5 days of trial and error, his appetite/energy returned, and he even regained the use of his tail. For this extremely small squirrel, our normal starting dosage was too much--it caused "the burps," white poops, and aversion to any food with calcium in it. Once we got the dosage right, all was good. So not too much ca, and especially not too little ca.

Squirrely's reaction to your step-down will tell the story. If she seems worse, then perhaps her dosage needs to be increased rather than decreased; in the unlikely event she IMPROVES on the reduced dosage, then the initial dosage was too high.

The goal with initial MBD treatment is to find a dosage at which the squirrel is virtually symptom-free in terms of appetite, energy, use of limbs, seizures, twitches, etc.

[brandonn678]

Well today I notice that she was attempting to urinate and only a dark yellow colored drop was all that she could get out. So I watched her for about 30 minutes and she continued to walk around attempting to urinate and not much came out. If you remember, the veterinarian said it could either be MBD or a UTI(urinary tract infection) and gave me antibiotic just incase it was a UTI. I stopped the antibiotics after a week thinking that was all I should give her because the antibiotics I have given her in the past were for 1 week. Apparently it is a UTI because of these returned symptoms. She seems like it really hurts to urinate. I spoke with the vet and they said they gave me a 2 week dose of antibiotics and I should have given them to her for the duration of the 2 weeks. They told me to go ahead and start giving the antibiotic to her again and they may have to get me some more to make sure I get the infection knocked out. Her energy is there when she wants to so I dont see any MBD symptoms returning. But she is very picky about what she is eating right now. The UTI explains why it took a couple of days to see improvement when this all started. I just wish I had known to give her the antibiotic for 2 weeks. I will continue to give her the calcium and keep her on the diet though. I will post this evening on any changes.
Thanks

[4skwerlz]

Are you sure she didn't get dehydrated in this hot weather we're having? Not to question the UTI diagnosis, but I'm not sure we've had many confirmed diagnoses in squirrels....it usually turns out to be something else. Not to say Squirrely couldn't have a UTI plus MBD or just a UTI....

Also, could she be in heat? That will cause the urine to smell very strong, and they will walk around peeing just a tiny drop here and there. Still, the ABs can't hurt and it's best to cover all bases.

Did you try the ramp-down on the calcium this weekend?

[brandonn678]

Today there is not much change with her. If it is like before, the antibiotics will take a couple days to get into her system good enough to where she starts to feel better. No the heat should not have affected her because her cage is in our garage which stays air conditioned to about 78 degrees. What she is doing is squatting to pee but nothing is coming out and she will sit there like that for minutes and only one drop or two comes out. Then she will lick herself as if it hurts. It is definately something urinary based. That may be the explanation for the white residue urine a few days ago. That could have been the protein in the urine from an infection. I will have to monitor her the next couple days to see how she does. I will let you know more a little later today.
Thanks

[4skwerlz]

So you stepped down to around 500 mg per day with no return of symptoms... that's good.

One of our rehabbers is concerned the calcium could be exacerbating her urinary problem. Anything is possible, so if you want to try eliminating the calcium for a day or two, and then starting again with a lesser dosage, that's worth a try. Just watch carefully for return of MBD symptoms.

Her initial symptoms of sleeping all the time and "down in her hind legs" plus the dramatic improvement after dosage of calcium certainly point to MBD, but I suppose it's possible she only had a UTI....:dono Time should tell.

Anyhow, please keep us posted.

[Jackie in Tampa]

I would stop all extra calcium today...and just give wet veggies and fruits...lots of water...
I am not a rehabber or a vet yada yada...just using common sense here...
keep her hydrated ...
for today, remove heat...
allow her a new scenery and monitor her urination then...they like to mark new territory...if she wants to potty on everything and cannot, I would push push hydration.
With anti biotics a suppliment of yogurt or acidiophillis should be given for gut flora...but iin her case, i think dairy is not ideal today...
let's just give her lots to eat wet...grapes mango lettuce watermelon peach avacodo cantelope...ots of moist food and lots of water!
Oh I think it was MBD for sure too...I just think too much calcium...
I would limit giving extra calcium for a few days ....flushing her system well...
I will go back to watching...but keep us in the loop please.
:Love_Icon

[brandonn678]

Well It was hard at first getting her to take any fluids, but I started her on lots of watermelon and fruity baby food.and she is finally starting to eat them and a little juice. The baby food juice looks like it is the most healthy with no additives. She just doesnt seem too interested in normal water but she seldom ever has. Her urination is getting better and she is able to urinate and is appearing to be a lot more active Although she is still struggling at times to urinate, she is tons better than monday when it was at its worse. The only veggie I can get her to eat right now is the beans inside the green beans,I will start introducing more solid foods again probably on friday. There are no signs of MBD returning :crazy I spoke with the veterinarian again today and they said they were giving me another 2 weeks of antibiotic so that she will have 3 full weeks of antibiotic to be sure to knock out the infection. What type of yogurt do I need to get to make sure it doesnt knock out the good bacteria. Also, where can I get the snips to trim the teeth? I am going to have to trim them. She has no upper incisors and I really only have to trim one tooth on the bottom because the other grows extremely slow due to root damage during an extraction attempt last year.
Thanks

[brandonn678]

Squirrely is doing a lot better now after a few days back on the antibiotic. I am probably going to let the veterinarian perform the tooth trim this time and I am going to order the cutters to use next time. She is back to normal as far as urination goes. I have started giving her minimal doses of calcium and have not seen any signs of return of MBD. She is still very active but is still not too interested in this new diet. She is eating up any of her old food items I give her(apple, pear, avacado, broccoli, green beans) and absolutely loves watermelon. I am glad she likes the watermelon because it is helping keep plenty of fluids in her. She will nibble at the HHB's but will not finish them and doesn't seem interested in them at all unless they are whole. It is like she smells the pecans in them and is searching for them. She seems to have plenty of appetite now but is just picky over what she wants. I guess it will take a couple weeks to get her to transition over to her diet. I started the calcium back yesterday giving her one dose of maybe 150mg. Do you think it is ok now to give her around 300mg calcium a day mixed in with some baby food or should I just stick with the small amount unless I see symptoms return?

[4skwerlz]

S
I started the calcium back yesterday giving her one dose of maybe 150mg. Do you think it is ok now to give her around 300mg calcium a day mixed in with some baby food or should I just stick with the small amount unless I see symptoms return?

You can try the smaller amount (150 mg). If symptoms return, give a 100 mg emergency dose, and then up her daily amount by 50 mg. Keep doing this until she is stable.

Very important that you spread out her doses. She cannot rebuild bone with one big dose per day. She needs at least 4 doses per day. The more the better.

As for the blocks, nibbling is a good start. You must cut out all fruit and nuts until she's eating her healthy foods. It might take up to a week. Below are instructions for picky eaters:
112520

[brandonn678]

Just an update. All is good. She still has 1 more week of the antibiotic, but she is already acting completely normal and is able to urinate fine. I will probably continue to give her a small amount of baby food each day since she doesn't drink much water. I am still giving the minimal amount of calcium each day(around 150 mg) mixed in with some baby food. She is adapting to the blocks, and is eating a little more than one a day now. There have been no signs of the MBD, so it might be possible that it was the UTI this whole time, but it doesn't hurt to make sure she is getting plenty of calcium and to correct her diet. I still have her under a full spectrum UV light to make sure she is getting the vitamid D she needs to absorb the calcium. I have it set on a timer that mimics the sun's cycle. She is more energetic than she has been in a while. I open up the taller side of her cage for a little while each day now so that she can get some exercise. I have ordered some snippers for the teeth, although I did have to trim a small amount off her one tooth last monday because I couldn't get her to the vet and I didn't want it to start causing damage to her upper gums. I used a ball point pen and some extra hard and sharp toenail clippers and clipped maybe 1/8" off the tip. She didn't put up much of a fight so I think I will be able to clip the tooth without much issue. It does help if you have another person to help hold theink pen in her mouth. Without upper teeth it is easy for her to spit it out. Anyways, I will try to keep you posted on how she is doing.
Thanks

[4skwerlz]

Thanks for the update! You're right: no matter what, you needed to correct her diet. Sounds like your girl is doing great with that.:thumbsup Since Squirrely is doing okay on such a low dose of calcium, it's possible she didn't have MBD, just the UTI. But it's also possible that she rebuilt some bone during the first few weeks of treatment, in which case, if the dose gets too low, she could relapse. Hope not. Since she's feeling so good, now might be a good time to get an x-ray if possible, to either rule-in or rule-out MBD. In any case, please do keep us posted. So happy she's feeling well again! :thumbsup

[brandonn678]

Well all is still good. She is still extremely active and has no signs of the MBD. I took her yesterday to have her teeth trimmed and had contemplated getting the xray while they had her knocked out, but the bill was already going to be so high I figured as long as she doesn't have any more symptoms, I won't bother with the x-ray for now. I got my jewelry side cutters in the mail friday as well and they seem good quality. cut right through a fingernail like butter so they should be good for her tooth. The vet said he is pretty sure that her other front tooth is not growing so there is only the one that I have to fool with trying to trim, so I think it will be better in the long run to do that instead of her having to be anesthetized every 7-8 weeks. Anyways, I will try to post more in the next few days. By the way, Is it as hot everywhere else as it is here. wheewh! :smoken