MAY 2010 UPDATE: Milk Replacers Study

[island rehabber]

The latest information on a comparison study of milk replacers used by wildlife rehabilitators, by Shirley Casey of ewildagain.org.

http://www.ewildagain.org/Milk%20Replacers/milk_replacer_update_may_2010.htm

[lizharrell1]

Thanks IR for posting the link for formula comparison. I find it interesting that some rehabbers report positive gains with Fox Valley, yet others don't. In the article it said that some rehabbers were mixing Fox Valley with Esbilac. In my own opinion, that just seems like an unecessary and somewhat expensive for rehabbers who might be on a tight budget. Having used Fox Vally with my latest two girls, Brenna and Tessa, I reported on this board several times about how impressed I was with their growth on the FV. I even jokingly asked just what does Nick put in that stuff that makes them gain and grow so well. These babies were quite muscular too. I DID add heavy whipping cream to compensate for what the FV might be lacking in fat content. I find it a little odd that some people have great success with FV, yet others have probs with it. Personally, I will NEVER use a PetAg product again. Has anyone ever actually reported losing babies that have been on Fox Valley? Anyway, these are just my thoughts on the subject. I am sticking with FV.:D

[island rehabber]

Personally, I will NEVER use a PetAg product again. Has anyone ever actually reported losing babies that have been on Fox Valley? Anyway, these are just my thoughts on the subject. I am sticking with FV.:D

I'm with you, Liz. For what it's worth, I switched to Fox Valley a year before this whole Esbilac fiasco and never regretted the change. If you feel your squirrels are more lean & mean than you'd like on the FV, they have a product called Ultra Boost for that.

Me, I'm so pissed at Pet Ag for their complete abandonment of an entire sector of customers (wildlife rescuers) without so much as a 'fare-thee-well', I wouldn't care if they went under tomorrow. JUST my opinion. :peace

[lizharrell1]

I agree. And I thought about using the Ultra Boost, but my babies were gaining SO WELL with the added cream (I also added Dannon Natural Vanilla Yogurt as well) that I didn't see the need to purchase the Ultra Boost. Not to say I wouldn't try it in the future, but I just like to try and keep my life simple!!! I am NO nutritionist by ANY means, so I don't fully understand the ramifications of too much copper/not enough copper in the formula. Can anyone help me out with that a little?

[4skwerlz]

Thoughts....

What strikes me right away about this study is how much more consistent FV 32/40 is across different lot numbers. This is a major indicator of quality. Such large variances between lots is either sloppy manufacturing practices, or perhaps switching from one supplier to another. Some of the variances in fat/protein content appear large enough to cause digestive problems right there; opening a new can is almost like changing to a different formula. Nick uses mostly "food grade" ingredients. You can bet the farm that none of the other formula companies do that. It's unheard of in the pet food biz. That one factor means a huge difference in quality.

The other thing I notice is the extremely high sodium content in all the formulas....Zoologic gets a little too close to toxic levels of sodium for my comfort, especially when you consider most babies are going to be rehydrated with Pedialyte. ANOTHER reason to never, never, ever mix Pedialyte with formula.

Happy to see that FV has the highest calcium levels, but more importantly, notice that the calcium/phosphorus levels are balanced much more precisely in FV; this is the old "calcium/phosphorus ratio" and you will see that it is OFF in most of the other formulas. The low manganese level in all the Esbilac formulas is concerning, as this is vital for bone development.

As for the low copper in FV, copper is a trace mineral, which means it is found in very tiny amounts in most foods. The requirements for these nutrients are of course small as well: for an adult squirrel, I'd estimate around .33 mg per day. From what I can tell, the level of copper in FV 32/40 hovers around the highest level at which one begins to see problems in rats long term. As soon as a baby begins to nibble real food (esp. blocks), this problem goes away. He'll get all the copper he needs from those foods, plus animals get quite a bit of copper from chewing on anything metal! So much so that copper requirements for lab rats are often adjusted based on the type of caging.

I do hope Nick adjusts the copper level so we don't have to worry at all, but this does not look like a major issue to me.



Just my 2 cents (or buck-fifty:D )

[Suzie]

Hello again,

Two Squirrel-Stations had Problems with the new Esbilac (Cover with the white puppy). The powder was bad, smelled rancid.
The cans were exchanged and the new cans were ok. But this "white puppy-Powder" has a different consistency. It dissolves very bad. (The old powder with the Golden Retriever puppy was much better!) Now, I have seen on the PetAG website, that there is a new Esbilac for rodents. With goats milk

http://www.petag.com/features_details.asp?ItemID=1758

Can you tell me anything about this new powder? I can see, that crude and fat is the same like the Soja-Milkpowder Esbilac.

We can not buy here in Germany the Fox Valley Nutrition.

Is the goatsmilk-powder-Esbilac for rodents better, than the powder for puppys?
Is here anybody who use this goats milk powder for the Squirrels-Babys?

If it is just as good, we will try to convince the German manufacturer that he ordered the goat milk powder by Pet AG.

Sorry for my bad english. I hope you understand me. (google translate is not a good help)

Greetings from germany !

Suzie

[island rehabber]

Suzie your English is fine and I understand what you're saying! :)
I have never used the goat's milk Esbilac but I know people who have, and say they never have problems with it. Hopefully, some other members will come here today and have more specific information for you. I am truly sorry Fox Valley is not available to you in Germany because it's a great product. But wait a little longer and hopefully someone with experience will answer your question about the Goat's Milk Esbilac.

[Suzie]

Thank you very much for reply !:)

Ok, I will wait for other answers from the members here.

http://www.eichhoernchen-findelkinder.de/2010/Chanel/Loriot_Gustav/Heinrich/Heinrich_Ausw3.jpg

"Heinrich" first day outside

Have a nice day!

[4skwerlz]

I can ship Fox Valley formula to Germany. Shipping cost is between $15.00 and $20.00 USD.

[CritterMom]

Thank you very much for reply !:)

Ok, I will wait for other answers from the members here.

http://www.eichhoernchen-findelkinder.de/2010/Chanel/Loriot_Gustav/Heinrich/Heinrich_Ausw3.jpg

"Heinrich" first day outside

Have a nice day!


OMG, he is GORGEOUS!! Look at those awsome ears! Or is he just very surprised at outside?:D :rotfl

[Suzie]

Hi,

I think this is only the price for shipping. But how is the complet price? (Powder and shipping = all inclusive?)
For example:
We can buy here in Germany the Esbilac 28 oz for EUR 48,00 = USD 61.10

How much cost 8 pounds Vox Valley incl. shipping.

A other rehabber would also like to change, because he had Problems with Esbilac.
But we can't order more than 8 pounds, because we don't have enough Babys. So I think it is not good to order more, the powder will be bad.
We can share the 8 pounds ( 4 P for one Person)
I think that Vox Valley is much cheaper than esbilac! Is it right?
It is so difficult to convert.

Vox Valley = pound
Esbilac = oz

Here in Germany = gramm

28 oz = 793 gramm = 48,-- Euro
1 Pound = 453 gramm
2 pound = 906 gramm = 16,xx Euro

puuuuuh :thinking

:wave123

[4skwerlz]

Hi,

I think this is only the price for shipping. But how is the complet price? (Powder and shipping = all inclusive?)
For example:
We can buy here in Germany the Esbilac 28 oz for EUR 48,00 = USD 61.10

How much cost 8 pounds Vox Valley incl. shipping.

A other rehabber would also like to change, because he had Problems with Esbilac.
But we can't order more than 8 pounds, because we don't have enough Babys. So I think it is not good to order more, the powder will be bad.
We can share the 8 pounds ( 4 P for one Person)
I think that Vox Valley is much cheaper than esbilac! Is it right?
It is so difficult to convert.

Vox Valley = pound
Esbilac = oz

Here in Germany = gramm

28 oz = 793 gramm = 48,-- Euro
1 Pound = 453 gramm
2 pound = 906 gramm = 16,xx Euro

puuuuuh :thinking

:wave123

Send me your Name and complete Address in a private message and I will calculate the total cost (including shipping) for 8 pounds of Fox Valley.

Yes, Fox Valley is cheaper than Esbilac!

[wheezer]

Great info IR:thumbsup

And thanks to Suzie for the pic of beautiful Heinrich:Love_Icon

[Lady Squirrelly]

Heinrich is a beautiful fellow.

It is ONLY Fox Valley for me.

PegAg can go sit and spin for all I care. Bad People.

[Suzie]

@ critter mom

Heinrich was very carefully, because it was a new situation.

For safety, he use the rope upstairs :)


http://www.eichhoernchen-findelkinder.de/2010/Chanel/Loriot_Gustav/Heinrich/Heinrich_Ausw9.jpg

http://www.eichhoernchen-findelkinder.de/2010/Chanel/Loriot_Gustav/Heinrich/Heinrich_Ausw7.jpg

http://www.eichhoernchen-findelkinder.de/2010/Chanel/Loriot_Gustav/Heinrich/Heinrich_Ausw8.jpg

@ wheezer

you wellcome:)

[island rehabber]

I am in LOVE with Heinrich! :Love_Icon:Love_Icon:Love_Icon

[Cejemere]

Wow! What a beautiful squirrel! Such rich colors and those ears..omg!:jump

[astra]

Such a beautiful squirrel!!! :grouphug :Love_Icon

[Suzie]

Hello again,

The Vox Valley Powder is very good ! I am happy! I 'm fed 6 Squirrels with this powder. They are "topfit" and two of they are now in freedom.
Thank you very much Leigh!

Here in germany was many Cans of Esbilac bad. A other Rehabber has the powder analyzed in the laboratory. Not enough fat.... and other things are not ok. (I forgot which other.)

Für diejenigen die Deutsch verstehen:

Ich bin Leigh sehr dankbar für ihre Hilfe. Das Vox Valley Pulver ist wirklich sehr gut. Hier in Deutschland mussten mehrere Dosen Esbilac aus unterschiedlichen Chargen zurückgesendet werden, da das Pulver schlecht war. Eine Dose roch sogar nach Dispersionsfarbe. Die Konsistenz ist zudem sehr schlecht geworden, das Pulver klumpt, es löst sich nur sehr schlecht auf. Auch ist mir und anderen Stationen aufgefallen , dass das Esbilac Pulver jedesmal eine andere Farbe hatte.

Eine andere Station hat das Esbilac hier in Deutschland in einem Labor analysieren lassen. Verschiedene Werte, vor allen Dingen der Fettgehalt, stimmten nicht mit den Angaben des Herstellers PetAG überein.

Nun werde ich auf jeden Fall bei Vox Valley bleiben, denn ich habe damit nun 6 Eichhörnchen aufgezogen, ihnen geht es super gut, sie sind putzmunter und topfit, zwei bereits ausgewildert, also in Freiheit.

Die amerikanischen Eichhörnchen Freunde hier im Forum, haben mit ihrer Information den Eichhörnchen-Babys in Deutschland sehr geholfen!

Liebe Grüße

Suzie

[CritterMom]

I am so glad you were able to get and use it.

How much will you charge to ship Heinrich to me?:D He is wonderful!

[Suzie]

Heinrich is outside (in Freedom) since May 5th
Sometimes he visit me!:)

[island rehabber]

Suzie that's wonderful news! If you can, we'd love to see a pic of the handsome Heinrich all grown up! Congratulations on a successful rehab & release -- it's what we live for around here. :bowdown

[Suzie]

Heinrich is a bit shyer than in May, (that is good so !), but I will try to make a new photo from him, when he come back to visit.

At time, I have a poor baby named Blacky 8 - 9 weeks old. He was found in age 5 weeks. The man, who found him, gave him 3 weeks the false feed. Only babyfood for humans (Alete Fruit and Vegetables) and water with Oatmeal. No milk.
The coat in his face and under the neck looked bad. Old dried mush. 1 hour long, I have tried to remove the old remains with soapy water.

Sometimes... the people are very stupid ! I don't understand , why they not look for information on Squirrel-websites. :shakehead

You can see Blacky on my website ... Klick on "Findelkinder 2010"

[nnmaru1]

http://www.eichhoernchen-findelkinder.de/

omg - I have such squarrel jealousy :heart:

are these tufted ear red squirrels? wow! gorgeous.

[island rehabber]

I completely agree with you.
I am No nutritionist by any means, so I don't fully understand
the ramifications of too much copper/not enough copper in the formula.

The ramifications are that in comparison to other formulae, the ONLY thing a particular expert could come up with about Fox Valley that wasn't perfect is that "the copper might be a bit low." The owner of Fox Valley Nutrition, Nick Vlamis, did not agree but tweaked the formula a bit to adjust the copper anyway. Truth is, copper is so plentiful on the earth that it is everywhere. There is no danger of "low copper" to a squirrel's health when being raised on Fox Valley formula.

[Rex's Parents]

Hello all!

We are new to the board, but wanted to add our 2 cents on the Esbilac issue. In September of 2011, we had 2 babies (they were 2 weeks apart, but we got each when they were about 4 weeks old) and after reading about feeding (we had never even seen a squirrel close up before), started them both on 2 parts Hot Water, 1 part Esbilac, and 1 part Heavy Cream. We would let this sit for an hour before feeding to the little ones, and both THRIVED on this mixture. The oldest one (Roxie) was doing great at the time we turned her over to a rehabber, when she was about 4 months old, and the younger one (Rex) is still doing great (he has had seizures when he was younger, which is why I think his Squirrel Mommy cleared him out of the nest, so he will never be able to go into the wild and is our love) and at 7 months old, is eating natural foods (We are going to start him on HHB, since we found out about it from this board, this week) and getting into everything, as a squirrel is bound to do. We stand behind this Esbilac mixture, since we had very positive results. Hope this helps! :thumbsup

[island rehabber]

Welcome to TSB, Rex's Parents, and good job making the Esbilac work for you. There is lots of info here that will help you keep little Rex happy and healthy for years to come. Remember that CALCIUM IS KEY.

TSB continues to recommend Fox Valley Day One formulae (32/40 and 20/50) for several reasons, the most important of which is that it is formulated for squirrels and not carnivores (puppies), and does not require special additives or special treatment if used correctly. However, we are tolerant of others' formula preferences, so long as the squirrels THRIVE. :thumbsup :peace

[Rex's Parents]

Thanks for the info on Fox Valley. We have been asked by several Vets in the area (we took Rex into a local vet when we first got him, for an ear infection) to possibly be a place they can refer people to, when they find little ones needing care. When the next cycle of pups are born (and we get a batch to care for), we will definately use the Fox Valley! We just didn't know anything about caring for them, when we had these two entrusted to our care. Everything we read seemed to indicate that the mixture we used was the best (no one had even mentioned Fox Valley at the time). It will definately give us a chance to compare the two!

On a side note, I did want to pass on some critical info. Not sure I should post it in a seperate post, but we wanted to let everyone know about foods from Hawaii, especially Sugar Cane (which by itself, is not bad for Squirrels). Hawaii does not have squirrels, but they do have an out of control rat problem. Our first rescue (Roxie) went to a rehabber and we baby sat her while they went to Hawaii. They brought home some Sugar Cane as a treat for her, and within hours of giving it to her, she started showing signs of distress. Shortly afterwards, she lost the use of her back legs. Late that night, she passed away (she was a strong, vibrant squirrel until then). After doing much research, we determined that the Sugar Cane probably had the rat pesticides on them. We will never let the rehabber know that this is what caused her death (he was just devestated by her death, and this would just kill him), but maybe by telling others, they can learn from that mistake. I recommend anytime produce is introduced to our babies, that it be washed thoroughly, and when introducing something new (like sugar cane), investigate what pesticides are used by the growers. This little ounce of prevention can save a precious life of our little loved ones! Remember that even though our Furries are cute and cuddly, they are still part of the Rodent family, and any rat or mouse poision is also squirrel poision. This fact was an eye opener for my wife and I, as we never even thought of the connection.

[Sweet Simon's Mommy]

Really makes me wonder even more about all the produce we have from other countries.
I can't even get a Florida orange in Florida, they are from South Africa.:skwredup taste awful too by the way.
Sugar cane is not allowed out of Hawaii, (wonder how they smuggled it)
Not even dirt on the golf shoes , if there is any it must be cleaned off before boarding.

[Mrs Skul]

:wave123 Hi Suzie Welcome to TSB :Welcome
:eek: OMG!!! Heinrich Is So BEAUTIFUL, :Love_Icon What A Squirrel I am In LOVE !!! :Love_Icon
You Need To Stay Around and Keep Posting Pictures and About The Life of Your Squirrels. :thumbsup3
I so Wish we had those Beauties Here in TX. :D

[Suzie]

Hi Mrs Skul,

I would not destroy the thread here ;)

But you can look on my website, to see the babies of this season.

www.eichhoernchen-findelkinder.de (look on: Findelkinder 2012)

I'm very happy with the Fox Valley Formula, but sometimes it is difficult to get it here in Germany.
Our customs officers are a little bit stupid.

They send the formula back to USA, because they think, there is squirrel-meat in the box, or dog -food :shakehead

Sometimes it's all right... sometimes we have problems.
We hope of a german distribution directly, - someday - to buy this milk replacer without Problems.

"Die Hoffnung stirbt zuletzt!" ;)

Greetings from Germany

[island rehabber]

:wave123hi Suzie! Good to see you again!!!:) The pix on your site are adorable -- love those red babies!!

[Suzie]

Hello again from Germany ! :)

I have a question!

Can anybody tell me something about this analysis?

http://www.ewildagain.org/Milk%20Replacers/fox_valley_3240_lot_011471_test.htm

I want to know, how many mixed milk 1 : 2 analysed ? Is this 100 ml?

I mean:

Protein 6.5 %
Fat 7.1 %

In Germany are people, who recommend a product for human babys to feed it the squirrel Babys!

I look the Proteine and Fat of 100 ml (mixed milk) from this.

"Humana Heilnahrung SL" (The Human baby milk)

100 ml:

1,7 % Protein
3,6 % Fat

I would like to contact this stupid people and tell them, the difference (Fat/Protein) in 100 ml "Fox Valley" and 100 ml "Humana Heilnahrung".

Is this 100 ml? I can't find the quantity of this analysis.

I hope anybody understand my question!

Greetings

Suzie

[Suzie]

knock..knock

:confused:

[MO newbie]

What kind of sq is Heinrich? He is so awesome looking.

[Squirrel Wrangler]

Hmmm, a dead thread. Just thought I'd add what I have experienced with milk formulas...

I think almost everyone will agree that Fox Valley for furballs is the gold standard. If I had a dependable supply of this I'd look nowhere else. Our furballs have never had a problem with this product. Unfortunately, we cannot always guarantee a timely supply of it here in Canada when it's needed. How to fill the gaps?

I studied the ewildagain.org page on formulas and began some web research. Ultimately, I settled upon analysing Royal Canin 1st Age Babydog Milk vs. Fox Valley 32/40 which is our preferred standard. The protein/fat ratio was very similar with RC at 31/37. Fibre, moisture and ash were near identical. Trace nutrients were not identical in every case but similar. I did not see anything that might raise a flag so I bought some locally.

Now, admittedly, we have not fed pure RC to any squirrel babies yet but it has been used at a 50% mix with FV in our Boo Balls and it makes no difference -- they still fight over them.

This spring I'm quite willing to extend or replace, as necessary, Fox Valley with RC for formula. If we have any problems, I'll report back. I am reminded that some members have considered RC 1st Age BabyCat formula to be the best substitute. Perhaps it is. In a cursory review of the formula I noticed only a higher Taurine content, which is necessary for cats but perhaps not for furballs. I think, at this point, it is time for the usual disclaimer...

What has worked for us may not for you. YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary). Consider this info and decide on your own. Always remember that your furball's well being come first.

-Squirrel Wrangler (Jerome's father)

[island rehabber]

:thankyou:goodpost Squirrel Wrangler.

I'm so glad you brought this up as baby season approaches! During baby season last year I received a message about this very subject from my pal Flo, a NYC licensed rehabber and TSB member. Flo is originally from France and does a lot of communicating and translating of squirrel rehab info for rescuers in both France and Canada. The problem of not being able to get FV, or get in a timely fashion as you mentioned, is always critical in both places and so she suggested the Royal Canin. I have begun to see RC products on shelves here in the US as well. It's great to know that this is a high-quality product that can be used alone or blended for baby squirrels, and UNlike FV, can be quickly picked up from a store. :thumbsup

[Nancy in New York]

I didn't read through this whole thread, and if this isn't pointed out, I think it's worth mentioning.

We no longer recommend feeding Fox Valley formula to neonates. There have been problems with the little ones digesting the 32/40. This has been going on for the past two years. Babies just were NOT digesting this, and they were bloating and constipated. The problem only went away when they were taken off of this formula. Some even passed from lack of nutrients being able to be injested, and from bloat.
What we now suggest is using powdered Esbilac Puppy formula, the new one with the probiotics in.
It has a blue ring around the top that says, with prebiotics and probiotics.

Once the baby's eyes are opened, most of us go to a 50/50 formula using half the Esbilac Puppy Formula with probiotics,
and half Fox Valley 20/50. OR you can continue with straight Esbilac.

[island rehabber]

:thankyou:goodpost Thanks for this most critical update, Nancy!

[Gray Squirrel]

Thanks IR for posting the link for formula comparison. I find it interesting that some rehabbers report positive gains with Fox Valley, yet others don't. In the article it said that some rehabbers were mixing Fox Valley with Esbilac. In my own opinion, that just seems like an unecessary and somewhat expensive for rehabbers who might be on a tight budget. Having used Fox Vally with my latest two girls, Brenna and Tessa, I reported on this board several times about how impressed I was with their growth on the FV. I even jokingly asked just what does Nick put in that stuff that makes them gain and grow so well. These babies were quite muscular too. I DID add heavy whipping cream to compensate for what the FV might be lacking in fat content. I find it a little odd that some people have great success with FV, yet others have probs with it. Personally, I will NEVER use a PetAg product again. Has anyone ever actually reported losing babies that have been on Fox Valley? Anyway, these are just my thoughts on the subject. I am sticking with FV.:D

Which Fox valley formula? It seem a lot of people had problems with Fox Valley 32/40. People who post about formulas should include which formula they are talking about.

[Mel1959]

The Fox Valley 32/40 is still not recommended. The formula that folks start with is powdered Esbilac, then as the babies open their eyes they gradually switch to a 50/50 combo of Fox Valley 20/50 and Esbilac (powdered). Or they just stay on Esbilac.

I'm not sure which FV the poster lizharrel1 is referring to, but it doesn't really matter. The info I stated above is what I believe is currently being recommended.

If I'm wrong would someone please let me know.

[island rehabber]

The Fox Valley 32/40 is still not recommended. The formula that folks start with is powdered Esbilac, then as the babies open their eyes they gradually switch to a 50/50 combo of Fox Valley 20/50 and Esbilac (powdered). Or they just stay on Esbilac.

I'm not sure which FV the poster lizharrel1 is referring to, but it doesn't really matter. The info I stated above is what I believe is currently being recommended.

If I'm wrong would someone please let me know.

I think the FV 32/40 is what is being referred to. It has been problematic for over five years now. I have not used it since 2013-- a disastrous summer where I lost more pinkies in two weeks than in the ten years prior.

[Gray Squirrel]

Sorry I took so long to answer, some medical issues going on. In answer to your two questions:




1. Calcium Glutamate is a form that is low in elemental in calcium, which requires much higher amounts to be given to compensate.

For this reason this form does not lend sufficient calcium support to the diets of juvenile or adult tree squirrels.


2. Cow's milk is not a good match to Squirrel's milk, not enough fat for one, and for another the lactose isn't reduced to where they can digest it.

It does not well support the nutritional needs of baby Tree Squirrels, and shouldn't be used in place of formula.

(see file for comparison) 290355
For cow’s milk I think the fat content is not a problem if heave whipping cream is added. People with lactose intolerance seem to do better on raw milk. The reason seems to be that probiotics are destroyed when milk is pasteurized. I have used goat’s milk with younger, heave wiping cream and probiotics with 40 strands (some honey and coconut oil also).and did not have a problem but I only have had a little experience. I have read that ultra-pasteurization destroys more nutrients than regular pasteurization and when I looked at the carton of goats milk I used I found that it was ultra-pasteurized. I think this is the only goat’s milk sold at Whole Foods where I shop but if I can find goat’ milk that is not ultra-pasteurized I would use it if I ever need to make a formula again. I think raw milk would be best if it is from a good clean dairy farm but there is risk of some bad contamination if it is not a good farm.
I am wondering if yogurt and probiotics would fix the lactose intolerance problem. I think some squirrels have been successfully razed on cow’s milk and cream even when it has been scalded. The reason I want to know if cow’ milk can work safely if yogurt cream and probiotics are added is because it may sometimes be hard to find Goat’s Milk. I think that all the processing done to the commercial formulas and the taking apart milk and putting it back together with added nutriment creates problems and there has been a few post about some of these formulas killing young squirrels.
I have heard that the recommended calcium to phosphorus ratio is 2 to 1. Look at the chart you sent me for squirrels milk the ratio is 36 to 45 in favor of phosphorus. I thought that perhaps the person who made this table put calcium and phosphorus in the wrong place because this ratio seems out of line with other milk if I am remembering right. This would be a 45 to 36 ratio in favor of calcium (approximately 9 to 7 ratio). But this is still way below the 2 to 1 ratio recommended. I think the ratios for Cow’s and goat’s milk is more in favor of calcium than what is shown on this cart whether you interchange calcium and phosphorus or not. I have hear that these statistic where use to make the commercial formulas but where does the 2 to 1 ratio come from, When I look take a quick look at food charts (not a careful look) it seems to me that a squirrel would never be able to reach a 2 to 1 ratio on a natural diet. I must say I did not do a careful study of this and a lots of things wild squirrels would eat where not in the tables I used but I still think 2 to 1 is not reasonable for a natural diet. In one study of men It was found that some men could obtain calcium balance on 500 milligrams a day but others that had more (probably too much) protein could not obtain a calcium balance even at 1400 milligrams a day.
There are so many different nutrient that are involved in a natural diet that when you take foods apart and try to make a better product by adding individual components you will probably cause some kind of imbalance. I wonder what percentage of the young squirrels have some problem ether minor of major on these commercial formulas and how it compares to more natural formula when it is taken into account whether cream yogurt or probiotics were added. I do not trust the commercial formulas because they are too unnatural and even when they seem to be working the company may change the formula on you.

I may use some of this in another post later.

[Diggie's Friend]

I realize you want to talk about and discuss formulas here, yet my thread isn't directed to this issue.

I only shared what I know of the basic knowledge of formula in an attempt to answer your questions,

having raised babies only two times in the past.

And though I understand your desire to share and discuss this topic, it's best to direct your indepth

thoughts, theories, and questions concerning infant formulas to those who have for many years labored to raise

infant tree squirrels, as no doubt they have had some of the same questions you have related here.

DF

[island rehabber]

ECole, if you want to re-invent the wheel you are quite welcome to do so, but I cannot imagine why you would distrust products like Fox Valley 20/50 and Ultra Boost which have brought thousands and thousands of baby squirrels to healthy adulthood, and release? I do know of a few rehabbers who still make concoctions of milk, tapioca pudding and God knows what else, and their babies look awful. I cannot understand why anyone would make their own when so much knowledge has gone into the formulation of quality "commercial" formulas.

As for squirrels not eating vegetables in the wild: ask anyone with a garden. No of course they don't eat the amount of veggies that captive squirrels do, but that's because they are NOT captive. The green leafy dark veggie diet recommendations you see here are specifically given BECAUSE THE SQUIRREL IS temporarily or even permanently captive and has no access to natural foods! They cannot strip bark, chew leaves or munch on buds from trees so we must give them kale, chickory and spring mix.

The Squirrel Board's general consensus at this time is to recommend Esbilac powder for 1 day - 4 weeks old, then transitioning to Fox Valley 20/50. Some will go 50/50 Esbilac and FV, others like myself will add Ultra Boost to the mix. Our babies are strong and beautiful. If lactose intolerance is your concern, that would indicate that squirrels given commercial formulae would have GI distress such as diarrhea. Haven't seen a case of that in years in my house, quite frankly, and the last bout of it was caused by coccidia, not formula.

[Gray Squirrel]

ECole, if you want to re-invent the wheel you are quite welcome to do so, but I cannot imagine why you would distrust products like Fox Valley 20/50 and Ultra Boost which have brought thousands and thousands of baby squirrels to healthy adulthood, and release? I do know of a few rehabbers who still make concoctions of milk, tapioca pudding and God knows what else, and their babies look awful. I cannot understand why anyone would make their own when so much knowledge has gone into the formulation of quality "commercial" formulas.

As for squirrels not eating vegetables in the wild: ask anyone with a garden. No of course they don't eat the amount of veggies that captive squirrels do, but that's because they are NOT captive. The green leafy dark veggie diet recommendations you see here are specifically given BECAUSE THE SQUIRREL IS temporarily or even permanently captive and has no access to natural foods! They cannot strip bark, chew leaves or munch on buds from trees so we must give them kale, chickory and spring mix.

The Squirrel Board's general consensus at this time is to recommend Esbilac powder for 1 day - 4 weeks old, then transitioning to Fox Valley 20/50. Some will go 50/50 Esbilac and FV, others like myself will add Ultra Boost to the mix. Our babies are strong and beautiful. If lactose intolerance is your concern, that would indicate that squirrels given commercial formulae would have GI distress such as diarrhea. Haven't seen a case of that in years in my house, quite frankly, and the last bout of it was caused by coccidia, not formula.



Read what I wrote more carefully. It is cow’s milk that is said by some have a problem because it has too much lactose not the commercial formulas. I would not recommend scalded milk but I am just stating that it has sometimes worked. The reason that I am interested in cow’s milk (not scalded) is because it is readily available so I wonder if the lactose intolerance in squirrels may be caused by pasteurization and can be fixed with yogurt and probiotics. I am not saying that I am sure that it can. I am looking for an answer to this.
If you think that commercial formulas should be trusted I would also direct you to a post by Sticky: WARNING DO NOT FEED Fox Valley 32/40 to pinkies Started by Nancy in New York, 07-16-2016 09:31 AM. And another one by Sticky: THE ESBILAC ISSUE Started by island rehabber, 12-17-2009 09:40 PM •123.
Where these formulas in these post the recommended ones at one time?
When I look at the breakdown of mother squirrels milk and the 2 to 1 ratio that I Think is recommended it does seem right to me. I do not know for sure that the 2 to 1 is the recommendation ratio but I have been told or read that it is.
People are saying they have lost squirrels using some of the commercial formulas and at least one said they had a painful death. It is not if a formula was made scientifically that matters, It is how it works in real life. When people say they had a problem with a formula it should be take seriously. Brand loyalty should not get in the way of the truth. You talk about people who putting anything in homemade formulas and getting bad results. If people just put anything in a formula made at home it is almost sure to be bad, but there has been formulas that can be made at home that seem to have been used successfully. If you take the attitude why reinvent the wheel just use the commercial formulas and there is something wrong with these formulas it will never be fix. It seems to me that a formula can be made at home that works as good or better than the commercial formulas and is safer. If I am right why not use a homemade formula. I am not sure I am right but there is enough inconsistence and question about commercial made formula that I think People should be questioning them and the science use to make them. The science and the logic of some scientist is not always logical. Scientist have come up with very wrong answers before.
The only complaint that I have heard about the goat’s milk, yogurt and cream based formula is that they are not fortified. With most fortified food sold today I think the reason they are fortified is because of the way they have been processed. For example white wheat flower is fortified because the germ and the bran have been removed form it. There is also the question about our farm land being depleted by the way we farm, but I think fortification cause more imbalance than it fixes if a food is close to natural. Fortification is often not done with a good form of the nutrient. Where there are commercial interest often not the best but the cheapest is used

[Spanky]

If you think that commercial formulas should be trusted I would also direct you to a post by Sticky: WARNING DO NOT FEED Fox Valley 32/40 to pinkies Started by Nancy in New York, 07-16-2016 09:31 AM. And another one by Sticky: THE ESBILAC ISSUE Started by island rehabber, 12-17-2009 09:40 PM •123.
Where these formulas in these post the recommended ones at one time?

This is exactly what I was referring to when I said over the years there have been times when a particular formula was the "go to" formula and then may have become an "avoid" formula.... and exactly why this TSB community is so valuable.

Currently, we do not recommend the Fox Valley 32/40 as per the sticky... we have seen a lot of pinkies do poorly and even die from the 32/40 starting 2016. The FV 32/40 seems to sit in their gut and never gets digested.

And there was a time many years ago (before my time) when Esbilac was causing similar problems and deaths, so that was avoided for quite a while until the manufacturer changed the formulation.

Certainly we do not recommend these formulas out of any sense of "brand loyalty", we are loyal only to the outcomes.

And as you said, it is not always the science necessarily. As far as I know the formulation of the 32/40 has not changed, but the outcomes have changed so in response to bad outcomes we have changed our recommendation for pinkies to Esbilac. Could be something as simple as they switched a supplier of one or more of the formula components. :dono