Little food for thought here....

[ac556k]

Ok, sat up in bed last night thinking about this. Some on the board reccommend feeding babies apples, sweet potatoes, brocolli, cauliflower, etc. I don't know where you guys live but I don't have any of these fruits/veggies growing wild near me? I have nuts in the tree's and whatever crap a mother squirrel might be able to scavenge. Therefore it would be impossible for her to feed her babies these items. Interestingly the babies live off whatever is around and grow up healthy. This leads me to believe that baby squirrels may enjoy these foods, but they are definitely not neccessary for them nutritionally:thankyou .

[Mrs. Jack]

The lady at Target yesterday when I was buying seeds and corn started telling me how the squirrels ate her entire garden this year... seems they particularly liked the eggplant and the cauliflower.

[island rehabber]

Therefore it would be impossible for her to feed her babies these items. Interestingly the babies live off whatever is around and grow up healthy. This leads me to believe that baby squirrels may enjoy these foods, but they are definitely not neccessary for them nutritionally:thankyou .

Ac...of course most squirrel moms wouldn't have these foods around to feed their babies, or to eat for themselves so that their milk would have such nutrients. What we are doing when we feed squirrel babies these foods is attempting to APPROXIMATE the vitamins and minerals they would get by chewing on buds, leaves, bark, stems, twigs, insects, bird eggs, etc etc etc. Otherwise we would have to bring in samples of every tree and green growing thing in the neighborhood in order to feed them properly, wouldn't we? The veggies and fruits chosen by wildlife rehabbers for weaned squirrels are chosen for their content of specific vitamins and minerals -- especially calcium, but others equally as important like Vitamins A and D. To further explain, a mother dog does not ever feed her puppies a box of dry cereal. But people feed their dogs what is predominantly cereal every day in the form of "kibble". It's the ingredients, not the format, that is important.

[Critter_Queen]

Rehabbers do try to simulate a natural diet when possible as well.

Here's a thread on this board that discusses some of the items you can find in nature that squirrels eat when momma-raised and after release from rehab.

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1829

I wondered the same kinds of things..."how does giving broccoli help him survive in the wild?" But once you realize there isn't much alternative for a human trying to raise a squirrel, you learn to do the best you can. Lots of squirrels would die of malnutrition if we didn't provide at least some unnatural foods for them as they wean.

Unless you want to volunteer to go bird-egg snatching for the rest of us. :thumbsup

[GhosTS]

Yes.Wild squirrels eat leaves of tons of different trees.They eat soil for minerals.Flowers and nectar.They look for food all day and eat most of the time to get the nutrients they need.Some of the leaves and mushrooms they eat is poisonous for them.So they eat other things to bind the poison so it wont kill them.Its a pretty complicated thing.Too complicated for humas.So rehabbers make this diet to balance the nutrients they need.

[Secret Squirrel]

Hey ak566k.......giving veggies not usually found in the surrounding area are very healthy and recommended.....but ya know we have a member who gives french fries and ketchup to thier squirrel!!!!!
If I was to error on the side of nutrition it would be with the veggies and not the junk food !!!
Oh yeah....I forgot it's Hinze ketchup....and I guess that makes it alright!!!! :osnap
:soapbox I guess no one ever mentioned MDB to this person!!!!!:soapbox

[heidiann]

What is MDB?

[Squirrelly]

It's MBD for Metabolic Bone Disease, think it's caused by insufficient sunlight and/or calcium deficiency...any rehabbers to back me up on its causes?

[Critter_Queen]

I'll probably spell it wrong, but it's Metabolic Bone Disease. It's caused by lack of calcium, or vitamin D to absorb the calcium, lack of sunlight, etc. It's kinda like squirrel rickets, I think. I've not experienced rehabbing squirrels with it, yet, and I hope I never have to.

[island rehabber]

I'll probably spell it wrong, but it's Metabolic Bone Disease. It's caused by lack of calcium, or vitamin D to absorb the calcium, lack of sunlight, etc. It's kinda like squirrel rickets, I think. I've not experienced rehabbing squirrels with it, yet, and I hope I never have to.

Metabolic Bone Disease is one of the worst, most common diseases that afflict squirrels who are raised by humans because it is caused by dietary deficiency. (Or dietary weirdness, like french fries & ketchup.) Squirrels need calcium....lots of it, and they get it from their natural diet beginning with their mamma's milk, right on up to their natural diet of leaves, bark, twigs, nuts, buds, eggshells, bird bones, etc etc etc. MBD manifests itself in many ways, but it generally begins, I think, with weakness in the limbs eventually resulting in partial or total paralysis -- the squirrel who "suddenly" becomes paralyzed but has not had a fall or injury is most likely succumbing to advanced MBD. MBD can also cause seizures and eventually death. The good news is, the squirrel can sometimes be fully cured of it if put on a very restricted, high-calcium diet immediately. And it may take months, but it can be done.

[henrismom]

Alright, I have read this and now you have me totally concered for the health of henri....He gets grapes, apple, lettuce, pumpkin seed, sunflower seeds, a
few peanuts, 1/2 of a peacan, a few acorns, twigs, leaves from outside, some
flowers that I see wild squirrels eat, green pine cones, pine bark, vitamins in his drinking water, dry corn, try broccoli, orange, cantelope, he won't eat that. Now I'm concered about him getting calicum, don't want to do anything
to make him sick, where do I get calicum??? We have no Kale here, read about "Prime" can't find any...My hubby says that you have been taking care
of him for 3 yrs, and he is still alive, that is fine, but if I'm missing something
that he needs, want to get it for him. All I can tell you for a fact is that he will eat lettuce, before any type of other food, he loves lettuce, but it has to
be the rib of the lettuce, so what henri want, henri gets, sure do go thru a lot of lettuce. I'm not a rehabber, no license, but have a heart.....:shakehead

[Gabe]

Does monkey chow have calcium? Mine love it. You guys have made me feel so guilty I went out (in the pouring rain) and bought broccoli. I've never had much luck with them eating it, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed. They love other fruits and veggies, not too hot on carrots though, sweet potatoes yum.
I think another thing with MBD is that it often is not evident until after release. They tend to break bones very easily and we are not aware of it.

[Critter_Queen]

cuttlebone is a good source of calcium, easy to find and is inexpensive. You can either leave it in the cage whole for them to gnaw on or you can put it over their food or mix it in with their formula. Don't get carried away with it, but I scrap it over all my critter dishes every day...maybe four or five scrapes of the cuttlebone with a butter knife each.

If you give a varied diet you are probably giving him what he needs. But the cuttlebone would make sure of it.

Oh, and deer antlers are another good source of calcium. Ask some hunting buddies for some this year or you can purchase them online at Chris's Squirrels and More.

[Secret Squirrel]

:sanp3 I spelled it wrong.....and I checked it twice!!:thinking Thanks guys for righting my wrong. Yeah, MBD is what I ment....But it turned out for the best.....if just one person learns about MBD by my dislexic post then it was worth it!!!

*Thanks heidann for asking what MDB was!!!!! :tilt
*Henrismom, Romain lettuce and green leafy lettuce and spinage is better than iceberg...you didn't state what kind of lettuce you are using.
* Gabe, primate biscuits do have calcium but rodent block is better for them. It's actually rodent food and you can get it at mose pet stores in the small pet section.

[henrismom]

Gabe, I know actually how you feel, you can start to feel real guilty here real
fast...Sometimes I feel like some people have just torn out my heart....
Came here for info and what I thought would be a place of people who want
or may want to help, but not judge.....I have seen them do some great things
for squirrels in trouble,getting in touch with one and another to save one life.
I admire those for this. On the other hand you have people who are trying to
do what is best for the animal they have, need a little advise, not to get jumped on by others. I just feel like a bad Mom right now, and that does not
feel good.....Will others just take a step back and understand that we are
trying to do our best, why would we be here?

[henrismom]

On the question of what lettuce I use, I buy the bag of leafly green lettuce
and pick out only the part that I know that he will eat. It $4.00 a bag, but
who is counting cost. I buy at least 4-5 bags at a time.
Again, just try to take a step-back, we are not all rehabbers, or have a
license, but that doesn't mean that we don't care. Maybe I'm just getting a
little upset now. I will leave you with this, thank you all, I will just say that
you all mean well.

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

I got PRIME from the pet store & dip the squirrels pecans in it.
Just to be sure they get enough untill they are fully transistioned outside.
Its in the bird isle of the pet store. Someone here recomeneded it.
Its loaded with callcium.
Another thing get some deer antlers & let them chew on.

http://a1272.g.akamai.net/7/1272/1121/20051221235226/www.drsfostersmith.com/images/Categoryimages/normal/p_123065_16914D.jpg

giving it to the wilds also.

[Critter_Queen]

Gabe, I know actually how you feel, you can start to feel real guilty here real
fast...Sometimes I feel like some people have just torn out my heart....
Came here for info and what I thought would be a place of people who want
or may want to help, but not judge.....I have seen them do some great things
for squirrels in trouble,getting in touch with one and another to save one life.
I admire those for this. On the other hand you have people who are trying to
do what is best for the animal they have, need a little advise, not to get jumped on by others. I just feel like a bad Mom right now, and that does not
feel good.....Will others just take a step back and understand that we are
trying to do our best, why would we be here?

I think the rant post by SS was directed at someone else on the board that feeds their squirrel french fries and ketchup as a regular diet...not the original poster.

I try very hard not to make people feel bad here for doing their BEST to provide for their squirrels. (and believe me, we ALL start out by making mistakes...so we can't get mad at those that have already made mistakes but are trying to correct them...like you.) I think some of us just get tired of being asked what is the right way to do it only to have that advice ignored or questioned and then ignored...know what I mean?

If you come here with genuine care and interest in raising a healthy baby squirrel, you get good responses from people here.

I hope you understand that the rehabbers on here do know the best way to raise these babies and we are passionate about it. Sometimes that comes across as being mean, but I really don't think that was SS intention...

Or am I totally off and missing the guilt-trip post to which you refer? :)

[henrismom]

First, let me say that I'm sorry for getting so upset...I have the flu or some virus with a fever of 103 and maybe should not be here today.
I joined this board after looking at it for nearly a month, was at another place
before and all bad stuff. Feed carrots and it died, feed lettuce it died, you get
the drift....Henri can never be released, it's live here or live in a cage at a
rehabber. I ask questions only because I want to do what is best for him, I
plan to have him around for a long time if God allows.
Any info that you give me, I take the time to write down all the info and start
calling Vets, pet stores, anyplace to get the things that you suggest.
The Rehabbers here are a great bunch of people, like I stated before I have
seen someone come on line with a life threating problem and you people are
all over the place to get help to save one little life. I admire you for this.

If you want I will leave TSB, if you think that I'm a problem person, this is not
a pity party, just an honest question! Sorry if I caused anyone trouble.
henrismom/Pat

[Critter_Queen]

First, let me say that I'm sorry for getting so upset...I have the flu or some virus with a fever of 103 and maybe should not be here today.
I joined this board after looking at it for nearly a month, was at another place
before and all bad stuff. Feed carrots and it died, feed lettuce it died, you get
the drift....Henri can never be released, it's live here or live in a cage at a
rehabber. I ask questions only because I want to do what is best for him, I
plan to have him around for a long time if God allows.
Any info that you give me, I take the time to write down all the info and start
calling Vets, pet stores, anyplace to get the things that you suggest.
The Rehabbers here are a great bunch of people, like I stated before I have
seen someone come on line with a life threating problem and you people are
all over the place to get help to save one little life. I admire you for this.

If you want I will leave TSB, if you think that I'm a problem person, this is not
a pity party, just an honest question! Sorry if I caused anyone trouble.
henrismom/Pat

I don't think you are a trouble maker...actually I don't really see the problem with this thread at all...I was trying to make sure you knew that we don't intend to come across as mean...(well, I suppose some might on certain occasions, but I don't think I've seen anyone mistreat you? Or am I wrong?

I hope you feel better soon. No worries, Pat, we're all in this together. :thumbsup You are doing right by Henri, I don't think anyone here doubts that one bit. :)

[henrismom]

Thank you, I'm now sitting here in tears, I want help from people here.
No-- no one has mistreated me here. I would like to think that I have someone to go on this walk with, since its illegal here, I have no where to
turn. I will again get on the phone and try to find "Prime" if I have to drive
60 miles one way to get into a larger town, where they have pet store. The
one we had went under after Katrina. I'm calling the feed store now, but
doubt if they have anything like that.
The only one good thing that I have to tell you, is that I have a regular vet.
who said that he would take care of Henri, if he got sick, he knows that I'm
at this site and has looked at it himself, brought my computer to show him.
Told him that he could use it for info if he needed too. henrimom/Pat

[Critter_Queen]

You could probably find some cuttlebone for calcium instead of searching for the Prime. Cuttlebone is found in the pet bird section of pretty much any store around...wal-mart, target, pet stores... try that. Especially since you don't feel well...no sense in running yourself ragged when you are already feeling icky...

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

you can mail order through petco.
Do you have any deer antler or know anyone who hunts, that could give you one?
If not than the cuttlebone, but mine wouldnt touch it?

Hey henrismom I thought about sending some through the mail, but it would be a powdery white substance. I think I better not?:shakehead
One bottle will last months and months.

[Buddy'sMom]

Cuttlebone is readily available in the BIRD section of the petstores and also maybe in the grocery store. That's where I got mine. Buddy does like gnawing on that, but thanks, CQ, for suggesting to scrape it on other stuff, because it's a sometimes-thing with him.

FYI - I did order deer antlers from Chris's, but so far he's just scared of them!

He has suddenly decided he LOVES broccoli, where he wouldn't touch it before. Not sure how long that will last -- loved kale last week, not so much this week!

He pretty much won't eat the rodent block (Forti-Diet) so I ordered monkey biscuits AND the Mazuri (?) block. Tried the monkey stuff last night; so far that's not a winner either, but I left it for him to get used to, maybe try a nibble. Hoping he will eat one of these (though they DO smell pretty nasty!).
I have been putting powdered rodent block in his formula, but now he's down to once a day (amount he will take varies, 12-24 cc) and I'm worried that's not enough -- ??

OK, :soapbox -time: henrismom (and many others), try to not take some of the statements so personally, and give all these rehabbers a bit of a break. They are spending HUMONGOUS amounts of time trying their best to walk all of us newbies through what they already know is best for the squirrels, and hoping we get it right. Same stuff, over and over and over again, just from what I've read here over the past 2 months. Some people listen/read better than others. It must be very frustrating for them to keep saying the same thing and sometimes it appears they are being totally ignored. I'm NOT saying YOU have ignored them, because it hadn't appeared to me that you had. Just, understand their position. And that they have to sometimes speak "loudly" in order to be heard. And have to care more about the squirrel babies than our feelings. {Sorry for the rant}

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

I am sure they would much rather repeat themselves then see a squirrel come down with a bone disease. That is why they donate their time out of the generosity of their heart..for the love of squirrels.:Love_Icon

[Gabe]

Whew!! You guys wear me out. I certainly did not think anyone was ranting and I get the fries and ketchup joke, I'm sure we've all fed things we are embarassed to admit. Then you spend the next 10 posts trying to fix things.
Anyway, the broccoli disappeared, it may be in their poop pile, but it is definately gone. Thanks for the cuttlebone advice, the PRIME sounds simple. I think mine would drag the cuttlebone around and generally get it dirty, do you hang yours to keep it clean? I am not able to hang in my squirrel area as it is a concrete building with concrete cages, totally squirrel proof. I've rehabbed for over 10 years, it is fun to come here and brush up on squirrels. We tend to fall into our own routines and need to be reminded about simple things like broccoli. I've thrown so much of it out over the years that I just quit buying it.