Spinach, Oxalates, Calcium, and Vitamin A toxicosis

[PBluejay2]

I fear this might cause some controversy because it contradicts some of our long-held assumptions/beliefs (the world is not flat?), but I've been questioning some of our "givens" (questioning minds never stop) and did some research in the USDA and other databases regarding a couple of nutrition issues. I found no where that the oxalates in spinach or any other food blocks the absortion of the calcium contained in any other food. I also tried to confirm that animals (humans included) have been known to get vitamin A toxicosis from vegetables and found nothing. To confirm or refute my findings, I emailed a Phd in nutrition. Below is our exchange:

My inquiry:

I rehabilitate squirrels, and certain issues about their diets have come up. My questions are

1) Do the oxalates in spinach block calcium absorption from any other foods or only the calcium in the spinach itself?
2) Can an animal (human even) get Vitamin A toxicosis from eating vegetables high in vitamin A? I read about some mountain climbers getting vitamin A toxicosis from eating a diet consisting primarily of bear liver (of all things), but veggies?

Her response (my bold):

Oxalates reduce the absorption of the minerals in the food itself (calcium and iron primarily) because they chemically bind the mineral in the food so it’s not absorbed. Other food sources without oxalates will not be affected.

The active form of Vitamin A is found in animal products like liver… polar bear liver has the most but regular old beef liver has 6580 micrograms/3 oz and upper tolerable level (to avoid toxicity) is 3000. The RDA for humans is 700-900. The plant version is a precursor form of Beta Carotene. There is no possibility of toxicity with plant sources because the liver will not convert it fast enough to be toxic and the excess carotene is stored in the fat cells under the skin and causes the skin to become “orangy”.

[4skwerlz]

Oxalates can block the calcium in any food with which they are eaten. For example, if you drink tea with milk, the oxalates in the tea will block most of the calcium in the milk. If one were attempting to feed a mix of high-calcium/low-phosphorus vegetables, adding spinach to the bowl hardly seems the healthiest option. Even if there is only enough oxalate in spinach to block the amount of calcium in the spinach, there's still the phosphorus in the spinach, which would now have no calcium to bind with. I guess the point is, anything that blocks calcium hardly seems like the healthiest veggie possible with our MBD-prone critters. Plus, the concern about the formation of crystals or stones in the kidneys and bladder remains.

As for vitamin A, first of all, vitamin overdoses in humans other than through oversupplementation are rare. In small animals however, there is more danger: they eat 10 times more food relative to their own body weight than a human. Picture eating 15 pounds of healthy foods per day and you might start to get those vitamin levels up there.

However, my main concern with frank vitamin A toxicosis is, of course, with fortified foods and vitamin supplements designed for birds since they contain large amounts of vitamin A, and it's almost never the nontoxic, natural form (beta-carotene), but rather the much more toxic (and cheaper) retinoids.

Although HHBs are made with mostly beta-carotene, other rodent blocks contain retinoids--often at very high doses. So the idea behind limiting high vitamin A veggies is simply to keep all the nutrients in balance, understanding that different brands of rodent block may be fed. And in any case, we certainly don't want our squirrels turning orange! :D

That being said, the Healthy Diet is super-conservative, admittedly. And I'm sure some of the "rules" there could be broken without harm.

[PBluejay2]

Oxalates will block the calcium in any food with which they are eaten. For example, if you drink tea with milk, the oxalates in the tea will block most of the calcium in the milk.

Yes, I read what the nutritionist at the Mayo clinic said about milk and tea, and I can't speak to that (but I don't feed my squirrels either milk or tea), but I researched and asked specifially about the oxalates in vegetables blocking calcium absorption, and from what I could find (and was told), it blocks the absoption of the calcium in the vegetable itself, not the calcium in any other food. That's why spinach, for example, is high in calcium but only 5% (I think) of it is absorbed.

I quote: "although spinach has a lot of calcium, it also contains a substance -- oxalic acid -- that binds up its calcium and prevents absorption of all but about 5 percent of it. However, the oxalic acid in spinach and foods like rhubarb does not interfere with absorption of calcium from other foods eaten at the same time."

I looked on several databases to find concrete evidence to the contrary and consulted a Phd with 35 years of researching and teaching nutrition, but if you have evidence to the contrary, I'll present it to her.

If one were attempting to feed a mix of high-calcium/low-phosphorus vegetables, adding spinach to the bowl would certainly work against that.

I don't understand this. Spinach has a 2.0 to 1 Calcium to Phosphorus ratio (99 mg Ca to 49 mg Phos per 100 gms). And if the oxalic acid affects only the calcium in the spinach, then for every 100 grams of spinach, the squirrels would still be getting 5 mg of calcium to the good.

I suppose one could advise folks to feed spinach as a separate meal, but that starts to get complicated. Plus, the concern about the formation of crystals or stones in the kidneys and bladder remains.

Yes, too much oxalate can cause kidney stones and crystals in the urine, but so can too much calcium. From what I've read, it's often the result of a Ph imbalance. Oxalic acid is an acid (obviously) and calcium is a base.

As for vitamin A, first of all, vitamin overdoses in humans other than through oversupplementation are rare. In small animals however, there is more danger: they eat 10 times more food relative to their own body weight than a human. Picture eating 15 pounds of healthy foods per day and you might start to get those vitamin levels up there.

Yes, but if you go on that logic, they're eating 10 times more of EVERYTHING--all vitamins, minerals, amino acids, fats (the idea that they consume their body weight a week is another question I want to research one day. I've read that it requires a pound of "mast" a week for them, but I haven't found evidence yet what percentage of that mast they actually eat). Obviously they are different than we are--their metabolisms and requirements. You could make that same argument for ANY nutritional element. The key word you used was "oversupplementation." I don't consider providing squirrels with a variety of veggies--some high in Vitamin A, some not--"supplementation." ADDING vitamins to a natural diet is supplementation--overdone or not.

However, my main concern with frank vitamin A toxicosis is, of course, with fortified foods and vitamin supplements designed for birds since they contain large amounts of vitamin A, and it's almost never the nontoxic, natural form (beta-carotene), but rather the much more toxic (and cheaper) retinoids.

I think any doctor or nutritionist would agree that the BEST way to get the necessary vitamins and minerals one needs is through natural foods. From what I've read, Vitamin A toxicosis has occurred primarily through gross oversupplementation. All blocks, including HHBs (and your blocks aren't the issue!), are supplemented with processed vitamins. Quite frankly, since so many foods have Vitamin A in them, and to use your argument, squirrels eat 10 times the food we do per body weight, I wonder why you supplement it (Vit A) at all if one feeds his or her squirrel a variety of vegetables (including the green, yellow, and orange) a week.

Although HHBs are made with mostly beta-carotene, other rodent blocks contain retinoids--often at very high doses. So the idea behind limiting high vitamin A veggies is simply to keep all the nutrients in balance, understanding that different brands of rodent block may be fed. And in any case, we certainly don't want our squirrels turning orange! :D

Ha! No orange squirrels for me! (But I do have three in my yard with orange tails--think there's a connection?). But again, the point was that they won't get Vitamin A toxicosis from the veggies. I'm sure you put the best quality/healthiest supplements in your HHBs, but again, why supplement something artificially that doesn't need supplementing if the squirrels can get it naturally?

That being said, the Healthy Diet is super-conservative, admittedly. And I'm sure some of the "rules" there could be broken without harm.

It's not the "rules" to be "broken" that's the issue, IMHO, but the possibility that the "rules" were made on the basis of inaccurate information"


:peace

[4skwerlz]

The Healthy Diet is always open to improvement. If you have changes to suggest, then by all means do so.

[crazysquirrels]

My Jackie is very healthy and been on your squirrel diet since day 1. I know it could be changed but its not really broken, right.

[PBluejay2]

My Jackie is very healthy and been on your squirrel diet since day 1. I know it could be changed but its not really broken, right.

I didn't post this information to change anything necessarily, or to suggest there's anything "unhealthy" about the "Healthy Diet," but I think we can relax a little bit about what veggies and how much we can feed them. There was a recent post about kale wherein the poster was encouraged to limit kale (high in calcium) because of Vitamin A. This initiated my inquiry since I give my squirrels both kale and collards every day (not that they eat them every day). Since my findings are that Vitamin A in vegetables cannot cause toxicosis (at worst orange skin) as was previously believed, and they won't OD on it, I feel better about the diet I offer. We might also want to rethink spinach, especially since from what I've read doctors and nutritionists believe that the other nutrients in it are of enough benefit that they outweigh the fact that there may not be much absorbable calcium in it and the oxalates in it do not block calcium contained in other foods. Face it, if we're warned against feeding too much yellow and orange and now dark green veggies (those highest in calcium), that really puts a limit on our choices. I'm all for feeding rodent blocks, and will most certainly continue to feed them myself, but in my view they are a vehicle for ensuring the squirrels get their vitamins and minerals (and, arguably, some protein). I believe there are other ways to ensure this, and until I see little bistros out in the wild that squirrels frequent to get blocks, I will continue to believe so. By and large, the cases of MBD and other nutritional problems we have seen have been cases where the owners had no clue about what to feed their pets and were feeding diets that were limited to either junk (crackers and Peanut M&Ms) and/or diets that were WAY unbalanced as far as calcium and phosphorus (corn, sunflower seeds, nuts).

Once again, my intent was not to suggest that there is anything "wrong" with the "Healty Diet" as it exists. I fully understand that it's difficult for some to rethink the "givens" and venture outside of what they think is "the known," but I am of a mind that, even though something may "work" and not necessarily need "fixing," that doesn't mean it can't be improved or that it is beyond questioning. I have my own ideas about nutrition, some of which may not be what is currently commonly accepted, and will present them when I am ready, but until then I will share what I find concerning specific foods so that our squirrels might enjoy a more varied and natural diet.

[4skwerlz]

Again, if there are specific changes you'd like to see we can put them up for discussion.

[virgo062]

See this is exactly what I mean about healthy discussions. And what works for you may not be the best for me. I can dissect each persons theory and build mine to suit my or my babies specific needs. thank you for this information. Though I really can't digest all of it there are bits and pieces that I take from it.

[Pointy Tale]

I stopped in, I read, I posted.
Good luck,

[crazysquirrels]

I think the squirrel are alot like human. My grey is VERY PICKY. I do give her alot of good food. However she just refuses to eat it. She like spinish but only fresh. I only give it to he 1 week out of the month. She gets mushrooms everyday cause she loves them and needs them. I also give her mixed lettuses. I am not nutritionist but Jackie is very good about what she picks to eat. She refuses to eat fruits but that not bad since she really does not need the sugar. Now not all squirrels will be the same and I use the Healthy diet and a great foundation as what to feed her. I think the area people live in may be a factor in food as is the time of year when they are available. Clearly not every food is there on the list but its a great foundation to have and keep a pet healthy.

[scoobysnack]

It makes me think of what has been found pertaining to human diets over the years. Everything in moderation (barring obviously toxic or harmful things).

[PBluejay2]

Just wanted to copy here in case I need to find it later.


As was discussed in another thread (see below), animals don't/can't get Vitamin A toxicity from vegetables, as we previously believed. At worst, their skin might take on an orangish hue. Vitamin A toxicity is associated with retinol, the form of vitamin A found in animal products, not naturally occurring beta carotine. Any problems associated with beta carotine seem to be the result of supplementation, especially with the synthetic forms of beta carotine manufactured for that purpose. Of course, none of us want our squirrels to turn orange, but I think we can offer our babies much more than the allotted tablespoon a month of yellow and orange vegetables suggested by the "Healthy Diet" and provide them with a much more varied and interesting and ultimately healthy diet. My own get some variety of squash (they love butternut) and sweet potato several times a week, kale and collards every day, along with a variety of other vegetables, and I have seen no adverse effects. Below is some info (my bold):

"Most beta-carotene in supplements is synthetic, consisting of only one molecule called all trans beta-carotene. Natural beta-carotene, found in food, is made of two molecules - all trans beta-carotene and 9-cis beta-carotene. Beta-carotene is plentiful in vegetables and fruits, and is beneficial in this form. The 600 carotenoids are important for health and are found in yellow, red, and deep green vegetables and fruits. Carotenoids are polyisoprenoids which typically contain 40 carbon atoms and an extensive system of conjugated double bonds. They usually show internal symmetry and frequently contain one or two ring structures at the ends of their conjugated chains. Beta-carotene along with alpha-carotene, lycopene, lutein, zeaxanthin and beta-cryptoxanthin are the principal dietary carotenoids. Three of these carotenoids, alpha-carotene, beta-carotene and beta-cryptoxanthin, can serve as dietary precursors of retinol (all-trans retinol, vitamin A).

Beta-carotene is the most potent precursor to vitamin A, but its conversion to vitamin A in the body is limited by a feedback system. Beta carotene has two roles in the body. It can be converted into vitamin A (retinol) if the body needs more vitamin A. If the body has enough vitamin A, instead of being converted, beta carotene acts as an antioxidant which protects cells from damage caused by harmful free radicals. The body converts beta-carotene into vitamin A, a nutrient first identified in the 1930s and now recognized as vital to the growth and development of the human body. It is an important antioxidant in its own right and one that can only build up to toxic levels in rare circumstances. Beta-carotene is considered a conditionally essential nutrient. Beta-carotene becomes an essential nutrient when the dietary intake of retinol (vitamin A) is inadequate.


Beta-carotene (vitamin A) functions, uses, and health benefits

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The body turns it into vitamin A, and beta carotene is sometimes added to foods or vitamin supplements as a nutrient. The same long chains of conjugated double bonds (alternating single and double bonds) that give the carotenes their colors are also the
reason they make good anti-oxidants. They can mop up oxygen free radicals and dissipate their energy. Vitamin A and its analogs have shown the ability to help inhibit cancer cell proliferation and help in returning to normal growth patterns. Individuals with highest levels of beta-carotene intake have lower risks of lung cancer, coronary artery heart disease, stroke and age-related eye disease than individuals with lowest lvels of beta-carotene intake. Its inhibitory effects are especially potent against leukemia and certain head and neck cancers. Beta-carotene may have a role to play in staving off heart disease, apparently a function of its ability to keep harmful LDL cholesterol from damaging the heart and coronary arteries. Beta-carotene has been shown to have benefits to the immune system.
Like all other carotenoids, beta-carotene is an antioxidant. Antioxidants are substances that help prevent or reduce the formation of damaging chemicals in the body called free radicals. Consuming foods rich in beta-carotene appears to protect the body from damaging molecules called free radicals. Free radicals cause damage to cells through a process known as oxidation, and over time, such damage can lead to a variety of chronic illnesses. Beta-carotene's antioxidant actions make it valuable in protecting against, and in some cases even reversing, precancerous conditions affecting the breast, mucous membranes, throat, mouth, stomach, prostate, colon, cervix, and bladder. Beta carotene is sometimes added to products for its anti-oxidant effects, to keep fats from going rancid


Beta-carotene (vitamin A) dosage, intake, recommended daily allowance (RDA)

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No RDA has yet been established for beta-carotene, but vitamin A is essential for health, and beta-carotene is converted into vitamin A in the body. The exact conversion factor varies with the circumstances; in general, 2 mcg of beta-carotene in supplement form is thought to be equivalent to 1 mcg of vitamin A. Adults and teenagers need 6 to 15 milligrams (mg) of beta-carotene (the equivalent of 10,000 to 25,000 Units of vitamin A activity) per day. Children need 3 to 6 mg of beta-carotene (the equivalent of 5,000 to 10,000 Units of vitamin A activity) per day. For general health, 15 to 50 mg (25,000 to 83,000 IU) per day is recommended. For adults with erythropoietic protoporphyria, 30 to 300 mg (50,000 to 500,000 IU) per day for 2 to 6 weeks is recommended. The RDA for vitamin A for women who are breast-feeding increases from 800 mcg RE to 1300 mcg RE. This can be met by increasing the intake of beta carotene rich foods. Smokers should be made aware that supplemental intake of beta-carotene of 20 milligrams daily or greater were associated with a higher incidence of lung cancer in smokers.


Sources of beta-carotene

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The richest sources of beta-carotene are yellow, orange, and green leafy fruits and vegetables (such as carrots, spinach, lettuce, tomatoes, sweet potatoes, broccoli, cantaloupe, and winter squash). The more intense the green, yellow or orange color the more beta carotene the vegetable or fruit contains. Beta carotene is not destroyed by cooking which, in fact, may make it easier to absorb. In dietary supplements, beta-carotene is available as synthetic all-trans beta-carotene, beta- and alpha-carotene from the algae Dunaliella, and mixed carotenes from palm oil.

Beta-carotene (vitamin A) deficiency

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A low dietary intake of carotenoids such as beta-carotene is not known to directly cause any diseases or health conditions, at least in the short term. However, long-term inadequate intake of carotenoids is associated with chronic disease, including heart disease and various cancers. One important mechanism for this carotenoid-disease relationship appears to be free radicals. Research indicates that diets low in beta-carotene and carotenoids can increase the body’s susceptibility to damage from free radicals. As a result, over the long term, beta-carotene deficient diets may increase tissue damage from free radical activity, and increase risk of chronic diseases like heart disease and cancers. Diets low in beta carotene may reduce the effectiveness of the immune system and lead to an increased risk of cancer and heart disease. Old persons with type 2 diabetes have shown a significant age-related decline in blood levels of carotenoids, irrespective of their dietary intake. Symptoms of a beta-carotene deficiency mimic those of a vitamin A deficiency: dry skin, night blindness, susceptibility to infection. Such deficiencies are seldom seen, however, even in people who don't eat fruits or vegetables or take supplements, because so many other foods supply the nutrient.


Beta-carotene overdose and toxicity

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Supplementing the diet with beta-carotene does not produce any significant toxicity despite its use in very high doses in the treatment of numerous photosensitive disorders. At recommended dosages, beta-carotene is believed to be very safe. High intake of carotenoid-containing foods or supplements is not associated with any toxic side effects. But the skin may turn slightly yellow-orange in color when extra large amounts are taken. But will return to normal with decreased dosage. However, long-term use of beta-carotene supplements, especially at doses considerably above the amount necessary to supply adequate vitamin A, might slightly increase the risk of heart disease and certain forms of cancer. Beta-carotene supplementation may also decrease blood levels of lutein, another carotenoid.


http://www.vitamins-supplements.org/beta-carotene.php


http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=21270
__________________

[4skwerlz]

No one is disputing the health benefits of vitamin A and beta-carotene. In fact, I wrote a research paper about it 30 years ago, when the idea that certain foods might contain compounds with anti-cancer properties was still fairly radical.

The concern about vitamin A arose initially because of a rash of sudden deaths in otherwise healthy flying squirrels. After studying the necropsy results and comparing those findings with studies on vitamin/mineral toxicities in rodents, one possible culprit emerged: Vitamin A. I'm pretty sure that this would have been caused by a fortified bird food that was being fed, or some other supplement; not from eating pumpkin. When I consulted Dr. Calvert, he felt that too much vitamin A, in conjunction with a couple of other factors in the stated diet history of the dead flyers, would have created a serious imbalance in the diet. Furthermore, he stated that, in his opinion, "nutrient-dense, energy-dense" foods such as sweet potato, squash, pumpkin, corn, etc. should NEVER be fed to captive squirrels, especially tiny flyers.

So, perhaps out of an abundance of caution, I decided to add the asterisk to those foods in the Healthy Diet, advising that they be limited.

If you feel the limits should be raised, we can certainly discuss that. But someone needs to crunch the numbers again, and we need to discuss with the community whether they're comfortable with their squirrels taking in 10 to 20 times the recommended amount of any nutrient.

[PBluejay2]

The concern about vitamin A arose initially because of a rash of sudden deaths in otherwise healthy flying squirrels. After studying the necropsy results and comparing those findings with studies on vitamin/mineral toxicities in rodents, one possible culprit emerged: Vitamin A. I'm pretty sure that this would have been caused by a fortified bird food that was being fed, or some other supplement; not from eating pumpkin. When I consulted Dr. Calvert, he felt that too much vitamin A, in conjunction with a couple of other factors in the stated diet history of the dead flyers, would have created a serious imbalance in the diet. Furthermore, he stated that, in his opinion, "nutrient-dense, energy-dense" foods such as sweet potato, squash, pumpkin, corn, etc. should NEVER be fed to captive squirrels, especially tiny flyers.

Did he do an actual study on this, something we might get our hands on? And was there any conclusive evidence/proof that the flyers died of Vitamin A toxicosis? Also, I assume this wasn't any actual experiment, so not knowing the kind of bird seed, what the vitamin A source was in it, plus the amounts they received from both the seed and any vegetables leaves me with nothing but questions. Finally, where did this "rash of sudden deaths" occur? Were all these squirrels in possession of one owner (If so, it seems like there could be numerous causes of their deaths), or did there just happen to be a "rash" of separate owners who fed a particular kind of bird seed along with a diet high in vitamin A? I respect his opinion, but "nutrient dense, energy dense" is a bit of a vague term that could be applied to about any kind of rodent block. Also, in NRLA, it states plainly that vitamin A toxicosis can occur if rats are fed 180 micromols/kg BW/day of diet if the source is retinol, but Beta carotine was not toxic at doses up to 1,800 micromols/kg BW/day," and I'm sure the scientists pumped the rats just as full as they could in an attempt to find a toxic level.



If you feel the limits should be raised, we can certainly discuss that. But someone needs to crunch the numbers again, and we need to discuss with the community whether they're comfortable with their squirrels taking in 10 to 20 times the recommended amount of any nutrient.

I think "in moderation" would be sufficient as far as what to put in the healthy diet, but I don't know where you get the numbers 10 and 20.

[4skwerlz]

Did he do an actual study on this, something we might get our hands on?
Did who do a study on what?

And was there any conclusive evidence/proof that the flyers died of Vitamin A toxicosis? Also, I assume this wasn't any actual experiment, so not knowing the kind of bird seed, what the vitamin A source was in it, plus the amounts they received from both the seed and any vegetables leaves me with nothing but questions.
Yup. More questions than answers for sure. There's a whole 'nother thread somewhere about my attempts to find out from the manufacturer the actual vitamin/mineral content of the bird food in question.

Finally, where did this "rash of sudden deaths" occur? Were all these squirrels in possession of one owner (If so, it seems like there could be numerous causes of their deaths), or did there just happen to be a "rash" of separate owners who fed a particular kind of bird seed along with a diet high in vitamin A?
Different owners.

I respect his opinion, but "nutrient dense, energy dense" is a bit of a vague term that could be applied to about any kind of rodent block.
Welp, there's more vitamin A in 3 tablespoons of sweet potato than in 2 pounds of HHB's, 9 times the glycemic load, 12 times as much sugars...I could go on. Three tbsp sweet potato has 400% of the HUMAN requirement of vitamin A.

Also, in NRLA, it states plainly that vitamin A toxicosis can occur if rats are fed 180 micromols/kg BW/day of diet if the source is retinol, but Beta carotine was not toxic at doses up to 1,800 micromols/kg BW/day," and I'm sure the scientists pumped the rats just as full as they could in an attempt to find a toxic level.

One more time: frank vitamin A toxicosis is a concern with RETINOIDS not beta-carotene. Still, IMO large overdoses of ANY nutrient are a bit of a concern when trying to create a balanced diet.

Still not sure what your point is....

[PBluejay2]

Did who do a study on what?

I thought you said Calvert examined the necropsy reports of these squirrels. Did he do any kind of report on his study of them, and is that available? I assume each and every one of these necropsies included blood work, tissue histopaths, and so forth to rule out any other cause? No offense to Dr. Calvert, but a nutritionist is naturally inclined to look for a nutritional cause.

Yup. More questions than answers for sure. There's a whole 'nother thread somewhere about my attempts to find out from the manufacturer the actual vitamin/mineral content of the bird food in question.

Point me there?

Different owners.

How did these squirrels with different owners happen to be collected? Did these different owners take their squirrels to the same place for necropsy? Or did Calvert somehow collect the necropsy results from different places and began to look for commonalities. Was he able to determine that each of these squirrels (how many were there, by the way) were fed a similar diet high in vitamin A or simply they were all fed the birdseed or neither or both?

Welp, there's more vitamin A in 3 tablespoons of sweet potato than in 2 pounds of HHB's, 9 times the glycemic load, 12 times as much sugars...I could go on. Three tbsp sweet potato has 400% of the HUMAN requirement of vitamin A.

But if it's Beta carotine, it doesn't matter. By the way, how much does a "batch" (one month's supply) of HHBs weigh? I seem to remember 12 oz., but I may be wrong. Also, if squirrels eat their body weight a week (as is suggested), they are more than likely going to get several times as much of many nutrients in relation to body weight as humans do.

One more time: frank vitamin A toxicosis is a concern with RETINOIDS not beta-carotene. Still, IMO large overdoses of ANY nutrient are a bit of a concern when trying to create a balanced diet.

One more time, then since vegetables don't contain retinoids but Beta-carotine, we should stop scaring people away from them by claiming in the "Healthy Diet" that they may cause vitamin A toxicosis.

Still not sure what your point is....

I'll try to spell it out: Again, the Beta carotine in vegetables does not cause Vitamin A toxicosis, as is suggested in the "Healthy Diet" and as many have been led to believe. People should feel free to feed those yellow, orange, and dark green vegetables in moderation (as anything should be fed in moderation, including blocks), particularly because those same vegetables contain many other important nutrients but also because feeding them to squirrels will provide those squirrels with a more varied, interesting, and enjoyable diet and will enable owners not to feel so stifled in their selections when they push their carts up and down the produce aisles.


PBJ

[4skwerlz]

Dr. Calvert didn't do the necropsies. The veterinarian that did concluded that oversupplementation was a possible cause of death as he found no evidence of disease and did find abnormal levels of some nutrients in the tissues. I consulted Dr. Calvert later regarding feeding certain foods high in vitamin A.

I really don't have time to go over the whole history here. If you're interested in pursuing the flyer deaths further, PM me and I'll ask my contact if she's willing to be contacted by you.

If you want to change the recommendation on certain veggies, just start a thread and everyone can discuss it. That's how we do these things. By consensus. I'm not "the decider."

Whole thing seems like a tempest in a teapot to me. Sheesh.

[PBluejay2]

Dr. Calvert didn't do the necropsies. The veterinarian that did concluded that oversupplementation was a possible cause of death as he found no evidence of disease and did find abnormal levels of some nutrients in the tissues. I consulted Dr. Calvert later regarding feeding certain foods high in vitamin A.

"Over supplementation" seems to be the key phrase to me. Again, I don't regard getting nutrients from foods as "supplementation." When vitamins and minerals are ADDED to foods, that's supplementation. Since, I assume, all these flyers were given the same bird seed, and they had different owners who no doubt had their own preferences/differences in the natural foods offered, I would think the seed would be the culprit as it is/was the only common factor (unless there are unknown others such as the squirrels all coming from the same breeder or such). I wonder if a full toxicology screen was done. Some poisons are hard to detect. You said "some nutrients" were found at abnormal levels. Do you know what others? Since Beta Carotine does not cause vitamin A toxicosis, any foods high in Beta Carotine were not the cause. The symptoms of vitamin A toxicosis are progressive and don't include "sudden death" from what I can find.

I really don't have time to go over the whole history here. If you're interested in pursuing the flyer deaths further, PM me and I'll ask my contact if she's willing to be contacted by you.

If there is no conclusive evidence as to what killed them, I suppose conjecture is the best anyone could do.

If you want to change the recommendation on certain veggies, just start a thread and everyone can discuss it. That's how we do these things. By consensus. I'm not "the decider."

Thank you for letting me know "how we do things." I did start a thread--THIS one. As far as I'm concerned, anyone is welcomed to weigh in.


Whole thing seems like a tempest in a teapot to me. Sheesh.

I don't see it that way. I think accurate information regarding any and all foods and their risks and benefits of great importance. It is to me, anyway. I would imagine that many have been avoiding certain foods (yellow, orange, dark green) because of inaccurate information when those foods may be good sources of important nutrients (eg Kale and calcium). Who knows? One day we might discover that certain foods we all think are wonderful are really not so wonderful afterall.


PBJ

[PBluejay2]

Okay, people, time to put down the popcorn and weigh in on this.

BTW, 4s, since you've put a copyright notice on the healthy diet chart, I think we should have a healthy diet sticky that belongs to the board and is considered in the public domain.

[scoobysnack]

Popcorn down and heads for the scale.135... ohhh hey that's down a few more!

I'd weigh in but I have no credentials here so I feel unqualified.

Here's all I've learned from the horses. Unless your forage is very deficient for some reason, most of the time the animal will get what it needs and not more than it needs from what it naturally eats. We tend to get into trouble with concentrated foods (pellets, supplements etc).

The difference with domestic horses as compared to squirrels is the horses are fenced in and if their forage (which tends to be all the same in a pasture for the most part) is over abundant on one nutrient and lacking in another we have issues. With your indoor squirrel you are offering many choices so they aren't forced to eat ONE thing all the time.

Ideally we would test all our hay to find out the % of sugar, protein, calcium, phosphorous and so forth but that's not overly practical day to day.

I would think,this is just my thought on the matter and by no means backed by any kind of study, that if you are offering a good balance of "forage" you would be hard pressed to overdo any one nutrient to the point of toxicity.

The only thing I could see being an issue is if you had an extremely fussy eater who was preferring one food over another to the point of excluding all others.

Scooby eats EVERY morsel of everything I put on her plate. It's literally empty by the time I feed her again. As long as I vary the produce and provide her some sort of pellet (in moderation I don't want her overdoing those either) I feel like I'm providing her a balance. I honestly don't think a little spinach on her plate daily is going to tip her into some sort of negative balance.

I'm going back to all things in moderation. I've been feeding every color in the rainbow to Scooby including spinach and kale for the last two years. So far so good. I don't feed any one thing in huge quantity and she is a super eater.

We have to keep in mind these guys are pretty hardy. Even living outside their diets become unbalanced due to availability of food sources. Sometimes they are eating mostly one single thing because of environmental factors. They are also resourceful and eat things from our homes and feed rooms they probably shouldn't. Still and all they seem to thrive.

That's my fairly worthless opinion on the topic. Can anyone tell I'm avoiding morning chores?

[4skwerlz]

I personally have no problem with increasing the recommended amounts for some of these veggies (I assume you mean all of the asterisked ones). The current limit was a strict one, to be on the safe side, pending more research.

At current recommended levels, assuming that blocks are eaten as well, but not counting the vitamin a levels in the non-asterisked foods, except for romaine, since that seems to be a staple, the monthly intake of beta-carotene would be approximately

15 mg, or around 700% of the recommended amount

Should this be doubled? Or more? I do think we need to make sure to keep the amount under the level at which the beta-carotene turns the fat orange, so we don't end up with orange squirrels! I'll see if I can find that....

[scoobysnack]

Ok... thought about it and decided to add this.

I just went and looked at the "Healthy Diet".

Honestly... Scooby should be dead by now. This might cause a huge issue here and I don't mean to I really don't.

That diet is daunting to me. It's a lot to follow. If feeding horses was that complicated I'd have put a gun to my head a long time ago.

I guess I'm just kinda Forest Gump-ing my way through this squirrel thing. I feed Scooby ONCE a day. She gets a plate full of her vegies, fruits and her rodent block/primate chow (yes I can hear the collective gasps now). Until recently she didn't even get the rodent block!! Turns out she likes the Harlan Teklad so she's getting it now.

She gets two of those and two primate chow blocks quartered, then a variety of fruits, vegies, leafy greens a bit of mushroom, some sesame seeds on her avocado. There's even sweet potato and carrot (way more than a tablespoon a month for sure).

She is in amazing good health. Active, happy, no neurotic behavior. Great coat (you all have seen the photos).

Here's what I do though. I'm a mean mean mommy. She gets her plate of food in the am (or whenever sometimes later) and that's IT. She gets nothing until the next day. AND ... if she has left over block on the plate it stays until she eats that. NO OTHER FOOD... *gasp at the cruelty go ahead*. I did this with my child too. Eat what's good or you don't get the fun stuff. Now she can eat the fun stuff first but she has to eat the good stuff before more fun stuff is added. Ohh and ONE or two nuts in a day. Max. In fact until recently she wasn't even getting them every day. Thinking about it now, I may have to change the thread to Scoobys Nut of the week. I'm worried that I changed that and it could all go wrong!!

I'm feeding a variety, well balanced, and in realistic amounts (I don't pile the plate a mile high). Everyone wants to know why she's not obese, why her coat shines, why she seems so healthy. I figure that's why.

I'm very reluctant to fix what ain't broke here.

Edited to add... I wrote this post to immediately follow my other post and then walked outside to do chores. It hadn't posted yet. This isn't a response to you 4Skwerlz it's just an addition to my last post. If that makes sense.

[4skwerlz]

Ok... thought about it and decided to add this.

I just went and looked at the "Healthy Diet".

Honestly... Scooby should be dead by now. This might cause a huge issue here and I don't mean to I really don't.

That diet is daunting to me. It's a lot to follow. If feeding horses was that complicated I'd have put a gun to my head a long time ago.

I guess I'm just kinda Forest Gump-ing my way through this squirrel thing. I feed Scooby ONCE a day. She gets a plate full of her vegies, fruits and her rodent block/primate chow (yes I can hear the collective gasps now). Until recently she didn't even get the rodent block!! Turns out she likes the Harlan Teklad so she's getting it now.

She gets two of those and two primate chow blocks quartered, then a variety of fruits, vegies, leafy greens a bit of mushroom, some sesame seeds on her avocado. There's even sweet potato and carrot (way more than a tablespoon a month for sure).

She is in amazing good health. Active, happy, no neurotic behavior. Great coat (you all have seen the photos).

Here's what I do though. I'm a mean mean mommy. She gets her plate of food in the am (or whenever sometimes later) and that's IT. She gets nothing until the next day. AND ... if she has left over block on the plate it stays until she eats that. NO OTHER FOOD... *gasp at the cruelty go ahead*. I did this with my child too. Eat what's good or you don't get the fun stuff. Now she can eat the fun stuff first but she has to eat the good stuff before more fun stuff is added. Ohh and ONE or two nuts in a day. Max. In fact until recently she wasn't even getting them every day. Thinking about it now, I may have to change the thread to Scoobys Nut of the week. I'm worried that I changed that and it could all go wrong!!

I'm feeding a variety, well balanced, and in realistic amounts (I don't pile the plate a mile high). Everyone wants to know why she's not obese, why her coat shines, why she seems so healthy. I figure that's why.

I'm very reluctant to fix what ain't broke here.

Edited to add... I wrote this post to immediately follow my other post and then walked outside to do chores. It hadn't posted yet. This isn't a response to you 4Skwerlz it's just an addition to my last post. If that makes sense.

Scooby's diet sounds perfect. It helps when they're good eaters, but you're doing a couple of things that are so important: 1) You give her the healthy foods and then that's it; she either eats it or doesn't. 2) You're limiting the treats/nuts/snacks. Many, many people do not follow those simple rules. But then you have a lot of experience with animals, and HORSES, which makes you a vet practically if you know what I mean...

[PBluejay2]

At current recommended levels, assuming that blocks are eaten as well, but not counting the vitamin a levels in the non-asterisked foods, except for romaine, since that seems to be a staple, the monthly intake of beta-carotene would be approximately

15 mg, or around 700% of the recommended amount

Should this be doubled? Or more? I do think we need to make sure to keep the amount under the level at which the beta-carotene turns the fat orange, so we don't end up with orange squirrels! I'll see if I can find that....


Again, "Beta-carotene is the most potent precursor to vitamin A, but its conversion to vitamin A in the body is limited by a feedback system. Beta carotene has two roles in the body. It can be converted into vitamin A (retinol) if the body needs more vitamin A. If the body has enough vitamin A, instead of being converted, beta carotene acts as an antioxidant which protects cells from damage caused by harmful free radicals.

Therefore, I don't see the problem, and if as you say "Three tbsp sweet potato has 400% of the HUMAN requirement of vitamin A" (I assume this is RDA), being a Southern boy, I'm surprised I don't glow orange.

[4skwerlz]

Again, "Beta-carotene is the most potent precursor to vitamin A, but its conversion to vitamin A in the body is limited by a feedback system. Beta carotene has two roles in the body. It can be converted into vitamin A (retinol) if the body needs more vitamin A. If the body has enough vitamin A, instead of being converted, beta carotene acts as an antioxidant which protects cells from damage caused by harmful free radicals.

Therefore, I don't see the problem, and if as you say "Three tbsp sweet potato has 400% of the HUMAN requirement of vitamin A" (I assume this is RDA), being a Southern boy, I'm surprised I don't glow orange.

Yeah, I'm aware of the mechanisms. What I'm asking is what are you proposing? Unlimited amounts?

[Giftee's Mom]

I am one of the faithful that will swear by the HHB diet and recommendations set forth by 4skwerlz. If there's even a chance the oxalates in spinach might block the calcium in the spinach from being absorbed, I personally see no reason to feed it, unless your squirrel likes it for an occasional treat. The phosphorus would have no calcium with which to bind, so it would actually rob the body of more calcium, it seems. I want my squirrels to get all the natural calcium they can, so I don't think I'll be feeding much spinach. (Edit: my squirrels will not eat carrots, so no problem there!)

However, if it works for you and your squirrels, by all means, feed away.

I love the Healthy Diet because of the profound difference it's made for all my squirrels. Keep up the good work, 4s! :)

[Ardilla]

Okay, people, time to put down the popcorn and weigh in on this.

BTW, 4s, since you've put a copyright notice on the healthy diet chart, I think we should have a healthy diet sticky that belongs to the board and is considered in the public domain.


I agree with this. We need a diet sticky thread that is public domain, not copyrighted.

As for the general discussion, I find this information about beta-cerotene not being converted to retinol unless the body needs it very helpful.

I'm lucky in that Penny & Otis aren't that picky, so I'm able to offer a wide variety of things that they will at least try.

I prefer to go by my grandmother's rule of thumb: all foods in moderation. Since P&O aren't picky, I find offering them as wide a variety as possible the healthiest option. When their bodies crave a particular nutrient, they seem to eat more of certain foods. I always offer a wide variety, though.

For the record, I don't use HHBs or offer any form of vitamin supplement. All vitamins and other nutrients come directly from their diet. But as I said, P&O are good about eating a wide variety of foods, and I select their menu items by carefully looking at the nutrient content of each item (thanks again for those charts, PB!).

[Pam]

Okay, people, time to put down the popcorn and weigh in on this.

I can't really weigh in on the vitamin A discussion because I have not done any research on it, but I have been following this topic and find it very interesting. Sweet potato was one of the first foods that I introduced to Roxy. She has continued to have it as part of her diet every day for almost 8 years. I am probably gonna be in trouble here....I give her approximately 3 tablespoons per day. It's not the first food she picks when I feed her, but it's the food that she comes back to and nibbles on all day. Other foods that are included in her diet are broccoli, a variety of green leafy lettuces, spinach, cauliflower, avocado, zucchini and yellow squash, cucumber, cherry or grape tomatoes, oranges or tangerines and nuts.

I have another confession. Roxy has never eaten rodent block. I've offered her every kind available, but she will not eat them. I have even tried to starve her into eating them by not giving her anything except the blocks for three days. She still wouldn't eat them...she buries the blocks in her litter box and pees on them. The only form of calcium Roxy receives other than what is included in her diet is a Tums once a week.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not bragging on the way that Roxy has been raised...I am just being truthful. She seems very healthy for an 8 year old squirrel. She is not over weight (she weighs a little over a pound) and has a beautiful shiny golden colored coat. I believe she gets what her body needs from the diet I offer her to remain healthy.

[Ardilla]

Pam, it sounds like Roxy is a good eater, like my Penny & Otis, and by offering a varied diet that she actually eats, she's getting the nutrients her body needs. I feel that's the healthiest way--providing fresh foods that naturally contain a variety of nutrients.

However, I'm also aware that many captive squirrels are very picky eaters, and in those cases supplementation will be needed.

BUT, if you have a squirrel who is a good eater, I don't think supplementation should be automatic, nor should restrictions on healthy foods such as those rich in beta-carotene.

[PBluejay2]

Yeah, I'm aware of the mechanisms. What I'm asking is what are you proposing? Unlimited amounts?

I think if you wanted to look hard enough, you'd find that just about all foods have one nutrient or the other that might send the intake shooting way over the daily/monthly requirement if fed too often and too much. Therefore, I'd simply emphasize that all foods should be fed in moderation and that variety is the key. If you wanted to asterisk something, I'd asterisk mushrooms and pumpkin seeds with the caution that they are very high in phosphorus in relation to calcium and therefore should be accompanied with high calcium foods.

What Ardilla said about the copyright. You said you weren't "the decider," but the healthy diet was coverted to a copyrighted chart that only you can change. I think the healthy diet sticky, even though your chart is extremely attractive, should go back to its old format so that at least admin could change it if need be, or at least converted so that it can be changed in its current format, and it MUST belong to everyone. I also think that above the Healthy Diet list of fruits and vegetables should be an brief explanation of the need to adhere as closely to the 2 to 1 ca-ph ratio with a link to the Food Data chart.

Now about that spinach . . .

[4skwerlz]

I can't really weigh in on the vitamin A discussion because I have not done any research on it, but I have been following this topic and find it very interesting. Sweet potato was one of the first foods that I introduced to Roxy. She has continued to have it as part of her diet every day for almost 8 years. I am probably gonna be in trouble here....I give her approximately 3 tablespoons per day. It's not the first food she picks when I feed her, but it's the food that she comes back to and nibbles on all day. Other foods that are included in her diet are broccoli, a variety of green leafy lettuces, spinach, cauliflower, avocado, zucchini and yellow squash, cucumber, cherry or grape tomatoes, oranges or tangerines and nuts.

I have another confession. Roxy has never eaten rodent block. I've offered her every kind available, but she will not eat them. I have even tried to starve her into eating them by not giving her anything except the blocks for three days. She still wouldn't eat them...she buries the blocks in her litter box and pees on them. The only form of calcium Roxy receives other than what is included in her diet is a Tums once a week.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not bragging on the way that Roxy has been raised...I am just being truthful. She seems very healthy for an 8 year old squirrel. She is not over weight (she weighs a little over a pound) and has a beautiful shiny golden colored coat. I believe she gets what her body needs from the diet I offer her to remain healthy.

There are certainly some squirrels that manage to do okay without rodent blocks. Being a good eater helps, and limiting the unhealthy stuff probably helps a lot. Pam, according to the research I've read, once rodents reach a certain age, they are much less prone to MBD or other nutrient deficiencies. Whether this was due to decreased requirement or more efficient metabolism of the nutrients is unknown, but it's a good thing. Her shiny coat, IMO, means that whatever you're doing is working.

[4skwerlz]

I think if you wanted to look hard enough, you'd find that just about all foods have one nutrient or the other that might send the intake shooting way over the daily/monthly requirement if fed too often and too much. Therefore, I'd simply emphasize that all foods should be fed in moderation and that variety is the key. If you wanted to asterisk something, I'd asterisk mushrooms and pumpkin seeds with the caution that they are very high in phosphorus in relation to calcium and therefore should be accompanied with high calcium foods.

What Ardilla said about the copyright. You said you weren't "the decider," but the healthy diet was coverted to a copyrighted chart that only you can change. I think the healthy diet sticky, even though your chart is extremely attractive, should go back to its old format so that at least admin could change it if need be, or at least converted so that it can be changed in its current format, and it MUST belong to everyone. I also think that above the Healthy Diet list of fruits and vegetables should be an brief explanation of the need to adhere as closely to the 2 to 1 ca-ph ratio with a link to the Food Data chart.

Now about that spinach . . .

I'm hoping we can stick to one issue at a time and not relitigate the entire diet issue.... of course if we must, we must.

So you're proposing that sweet potatoes, carrots, and the squashes be unasterisked, and that a general statement about "everything in moderation" be added? (I believe the importance of "variety" is mentioned, several times.)

[PBluejay2]

I'm hoping we can stick to one issue at a time and not relitigate the entire diet issue.... of course if we must, we must.

So you're proposing that sweet potatoes, carrots, and the squashes be unasterisked, and that a general statement about "everything in moderation" be added? (I believe the importance of "variety" is mentioned, several times.)

Therefore, I'd simply emphasize that all foods should be fed in moderation and that variety is the key. If you wanted to asterisk something, I'd asterisk mushrooms and pumpkin seeds with the caution that they are very high in phosphorus in relation to calcium and therefore should be accompanied with high calcium foods.

What is unclear about this?

[Ardilla]

So you're proposing that sweet potatoes, carrots, and the squashes be unasterisked, and that a general statement about "everything in moderation" be added? (I believe the importance of "variety" is mentioned, several times.)


I think this would be an excellent move at this point. The beta-carotene is not dangerous in thos efood items, and they don't need to be "red-flagged."

I think adding a note about offering foods in moderation (not too much, not too little) and offering as wide a variety of foods as possible is also an excellent idea.

Personally, I would also note that supplements are not necessary except for picky eaters. Supplementation (including HHBs) should not be automatic. I've become concerned by several posts over the past few months where posters are taking all fresh veggies away and only pushing the HHBs. If the squirrels want to eat the veggies, they should be encouraged to do so, not have their fresh foods taken away in favor of HHBs, which, from my understanding, are supposed to be a supplement, not a staple food.

[4skwerlz]

Therefore, I'd simply emphasize that all foods should be fed in moderation and that variety is the key. If you wanted to asterisk something, I'd asterisk mushrooms and pumpkin seeds with the caution that they are very high in phosphorus in relation to calcium and therefore should be accompanied with high calcium foods.

What is unclear about this?

I think that a vague statement that everything should be fed in moderation isn't that helpful to the average person. "Moderation" means different things to different people. The thing I've been asked time and time again is "just tell what to feed and how much." Remember, we're dealing with the general public and trying to keep the diet as foolproof as possible.

Anyhow, it appears that carotenodermia occurs in humans at around 10 times the recommended daily amount. If our current diet is already at 7X the RDA, then is this cause for any concern?

And I didn't really want to get into all this, but there's more to nutrition than whether a nutrient is toxic or not. Many nutrients interact with one another; some "work together"; others "compete" or "block" other nutrients. That's a major reason why a healthy diet is a balanced diet. So I do have some concerns about any one nutrient being so oversupplied in the diet. Perhaps I'm overcautious about this.

[Ardilla]

That's a major reason why a healthy diet is a balanced diet. So I do have some concerns about any one nutrient being so oversupplied in the diet. Perhaps I'm overcautious about this.

I think keeping it balanced is the exact reason NOT to limit certain foods. Limiting one type of food makes it unbalanced in relation to everything that isn't limited.

[4skwerlz]

What Ardilla said about the copyright. You said you weren't "the decider," but the healthy diet was coverted to a copyrighted chart that only you can change. I think the healthy diet sticky, even though your chart is extremely attractive, should go back to its old format so that at least admin could change it if need be, or at least converted so that it can be changed in its current format, and it MUST belong to everyone. I also think that above the Healthy Diet list of fruits and vegetables should be an brief explanation of the need to adhere as closely to the 2 to 1 ca-ph ratio with a link to the Food Data chart.

I don't think you were around when the Healthy Diet was being created, but the Healthy Diet is not "mine" in the sense you are implying. The entire diet, including all of the theory behind it, its design, and most of the foods on the lists, was created as a group effort, agreed upon by consensus. I maintain it, and I usually take the lead in bringing up issues simply because no one else on TSB has had the knowledge or interest or time to do so.

The Diet has been revised numbers of times, always through discussion and consensus. Why? Because consensus is vital with this important issue of diet. Nothing else causes more illness and death than bad diet. This is where all of our squirrels are most at risk. And when a new member comes onboard, one of our most vital tasks is to FIX THE DIET, always. And to do this effectively, we must, to the extent possible, speak as one voice. When people hear conflicting advice, they tune out.

As to the copyright notice, that simply prevents unauthorized use of something all of us at TSB have worked very hard to create. The creation, revision, and management of the Diet has been overseen and approved by Admin every step of the way, I can assure you.

[Ardilla]

As to the copyright notice, that simply prevents unauthorized use of something all of us at TSB have worked very hard to create. The creation, revision, and management of the Diet has been overseen and approved by Admin every step of the way, I can assure you.

Honestly, I would not assume that. It says "©2009 Henry's Healthy Blocks," not "©2009 The Squirrel Board." I thought you were laying claim to it, since the HHB company is yours.

[4skwerlz]

I think keeping it balanced is the exact reason NOT to limit certain foods. Limiting one type of food makes it unbalanced in relation to everything that isn't limited.

A balanced diet means a "balance of nutrients"; not "equal amounts of every food." A cup of meat, a cup of veggies, a cup of fat, and a cup of sugar wouldn't be a balanced diet. Dietary recommendations must also take into account the eating habits/tastes of the audience. This is why humans are always "encouraged to eat more" veggies and fiber and "encouraged to limit" fats and sweets. "Eat 5 servings of this, and only 1 serving of that" and so on. Foods that are particularly high in one nutrient--whether it be sugar or fat or a certain vitamin--often need to be limited.

[PBluejay2]

Honestly, I would not assume that. It says "©2009 Henry's Healthy Blocks," not "©2009 The Squirrel Board." I thought you were laying claim to it, since the HHB company is yours.

I agree. If anyone is to lay claim to a copyright, it should be the board, not a private company/individual who advertises to and profits from its members and guests.

[4skwerlz]

Honestly, I would not assume that. It says "©2009 Henry's Healthy Blocks," not "©2009 The Squirrel Board." I thought you were laying claim to it, since the HHB company is yours.

Well, I am technically the author. I don't know what you mean in terms of "laying claim" to it.

[PBluejay2]

I think that a vague statement that everything should be fed in moderation isn't that helpful to the average person. "Moderation" means different things to different people. The thing I've been asked time and time again is "just tell what to feed and how much." Remember, we're dealing with the general public and trying to keep the diet as foolproof as possible.

Anyhow, it appears that carotenodermia occurs in humans at around 10 times the recommended daily amount. If our current diet is already at 7X the RDA, then is this cause for any concern?

And I didn't really want to get into all this, but there's more to nutrition than whether a nutrient is toxic or not. Many nutrients interact with one another; some "work together"; others "compete" or "block" other nutrients. That's a major reason why a healthy diet is a balanced diet. So I do have some concerns about any one nutrient being so oversupplied in the diet. Perhaps I'm overcautious about this.

How about, "Each food should be fed in moderation, meaning no more than a few times a week and along with a variety of others. No one food should be considered a "staple" food to be fed daily."

[Ardilla]

A balanced diet means a "balance of nutrients"; not "equal amounts of every food." A cup of meat, a cup of veggies, a cup of fat, and a cup of sugar wouldn't be a balanced diet. Dietary recommendations must also take into account the eating habits/tastes of the audience. This is why humans are always "encouraged to eat more" veggies and fiber and "encouraged to limit" fats and sweets. "Eat 5 servings of this, and only 1 serving of that" and so on. Foods that are particularly high in one nutrient--whether it be sugar or fat or a certain vitamin--often need to be limited.

I understand that. My dad has diabetes (as do several other relatives) and he has to maintain a certain balance in his diet. It's about proportions, not equal amount of everything.

However, that doesn't change the fact that certain foods high in beta-carotene have been red-flagged in the Healthy Diet Chart and limited when they really don't need to be.

[PBluejay2]

Well, I am technically the author. I don't know what you mean in terms of "laying claim" to it.

If, as you said, this is the result of a team effort, then you are not the sole author of the content.

[Ardilla]

Well, I am technically the author. I don't know what you mean in terms of "laying claim" to it.

But you said it was devised by board collaboration. In that case, you are not the only author, TSB is. If you are copyrighting it under your company name you are, in fact, laying legal claim on it. That's what copyright is.

[4skwerlz]

How about, "Each food should be fed in moderation, meaning no more than a few times a week and along with a variety of others. No one food should be considered a "staple" food to be fed daily."

I think this is a good statement and should be added. However, I don't think it takes the place of suggested quantities whenever possible or appropriate.

[PBluejay2]

I think this is a good statement and should be added. However, I don't think it takes the place of suggested quantities whenever possible or appropriate.

Other than rodent blocks, were there suggested quantities?

[4skwerlz]

If, as you said, this is the result of a team effort, then you are not the sole author of the content.

Anyhoo, if you feel this is an important issue I suggest a separate thread or that you take it up with Admin so we can stay on topic here.

[4skwerlz]

I'd asterisk mushrooms and pumpkin seeds with the caution that they are very high in phosphorus in relation to calcium and therefore should be accompanied with high calcium foods.


(trying to address your points one by one...)

If a person is following the Healthy Diet, including limited quantities of certain foods like seeds and nuts, they do not need to worry about calcium/phosphorus ratios. All of the foods have been carefully prescreened as to their ratios and/or limited in quantity. Therefore, the differences between one veggie and another calc/phos-wise is insignificant, by which I mean "incapable of affecting the overall calc/phos ratio of the diet in a negative way."

As for pumpkin seeds, that is one food that I don't agree with having on the list. I brought up the issue of eliminating pumpkin seeds from the Diet, it was discussed, everyone shrieked like boiled owls:D , and so on the Diet they stayed, in limited quantities of course.

[4skwerlz]

Other than rodent blocks, were there suggested quantities?

Not nearly enough. Like I said, I'm constantly asked to suggest quantities for everything. I'd really like to figure out some kind of rubric or language to address that. Former versions of the Diet did have suggested quantities but I wasn't happy with the format. The pyramid does suggest overall quantities for each "food group," but it seemed most important to have quantities where there was a required minimum (like the blocks) or an area where we need to limit intake, like nuts and maybe avocado, as an example.

I'm currently working on a new version of the Diet and would like to address that if I can.

[PBluejay2]

(trying to address your points one by one...)

If a person is following the Healthy Diet, including limited quantities of certain foods like seeds and nuts, they do not need to worry about calcium/phosphorus ratios. All of the foods have been carefully prescreened as to their ratios and/or limited in quantity. Therefore, the differences between one veggie and another calc/phos-wise is insignificant, by which I mean "incapable of affecting the overall calc/phos ratio of the diet in a negative way."


I whole-heartedly disagree with this one, 4s. Then why don't we include corn in the list and do away with the caution to avoid sunflower seeds and pine nuts?

[4skwerlz]

I whole-heartedly disagree with this one, 4s. Then why don't we include corn in the list and do away with the caution to avoid sunflower seeds and pine nuts?

That's what "prescreened" means.

[PBluejay2]

That's what "prescreened" means.

I guess I don't know what that means, then. Explain?

[4skwerlz]

I guess I don't know what that means, then. Explain?


All of the foods have been carefully prescreened as to their ratios and/or limited in quantity. Therefore, the differences between one veggie and another calc/phos-wise is insignificant, by which I mean "incapable of affecting the overall calc/phos ratio of the diet in a negative way."

The goal of the Diet was to present the "best of the best"; an "ideal diet" or as close as possible. So every food there was looked at carefully....

1. What does it contribute nutritionally to the overall diet? vitamins? minerals? fiber? good for the teeth? etc.

2. Will squirrels EAT it? (healthy foods aren't much use otherwise)

3. Can people find it at the grocery store/will they be comfortable buying it? For example, chayote is a fantastic veggie nutrition-wise, but since folks aren't familiar with it, few buy it for their squirrels. It's THERE but you could argue it's just taking up space.

4. Do squirrels love it so much that they might eat TOO MUCH of it? In that case, even a healthy food might need a limit.

5. Though generally healthy, is there some other aspect of the food that suggests a limit? High in starch, sugar, or fat?

6. Is the calc/phos ratio within range so that it will not create an imbalance? Some foods, like nuts, may be so important to the diet that they need to be included anyhow, with limits. I did however, screen out the worst nuts.

7. I checked the glycemic load of almost every fruit you can think of and selected the ones with the lowest GLs (I believe my upper limit was 5 or 6, but I'd have to check.)

This is not exhaustive or in any particular order, but you get the gist I think.

[PBluejay2]

The goal of the Diet was to present the "best of the best"; an "ideal diet" or as close as possible. So every food there was looked at carefully....

1. What does it contribute nutritionally to the overall diet? vitamins? minerals? fiber? good for the teeth? etc.

2. Will squirrels EAT it? (healthy foods aren't much use otherwise)

3. Can people find it at the grocery store/will they be comfortable buying it? For example, chayote is a fantastic veggie nutrition-wise, but since folks aren't familiar with it, few buy it for their squirrels. It's THERE but you could argue it's just taking up space.

4. Do squirrels love it so much that they might eat TOO MUCH of it? In that case, even a healthy food might need a limit.

5. Though generally healthy, is there some other aspect of the food that suggests a limit? High in starch, sugar, or fat?

6. Is the calc/phos ratio within range so that it will not create an imbalance? Some foods, like nuts, may be so important to the diet that they need to be included anyhow, with limits. I did however, screen out the worst nuts.

7. I checked the glycemic load of almost every fruit you can think of and selected the ones with the lowest GLs (I believe my upper limit was 5 or 6, but I'd have to check.)

This is not exhaustive or in any particular order, but you get the gist I think.

Well, for a later discussion you'll have to fill me in on why pine nuts and sunflower seeds were nixed (I know your argument about corn) and others, such as pumpkin seeds. weren't.

[4skwerlz]

Well, for a later discussion you'll have to fill me in on why pine nuts and sunflower seeds were nixed (I know your argument about corn) and others, such as pumpkin seeds. weren't.

It's as I said: The GROUP didn't agree to pumpkin seeds being nixed.

[PBluejay2]

It's as I said: The GROUP didn't agree to pumpkin seeds being nixed.

But you and I went around and around about them about a year or so ago, remember? You couldn't decide because of the shell/husk? I suppose you decided to keep them in then? Doesn't matter.

About the copyright. . . .

And is the issue settled regarding what to do with the high Beta carotine veggies. For someone who's not "the decider," it seems everything depends on your decision.

[4skwerlz]

But you and I went around and around about them about a year or so ago, remember? You couldn't decide because of the shell/husk? I suppose you decided to keep them in then? Doesn't matter.

About the copyright. . . .

And is the issue settled regarding what to do with the high Beta carotine veggies. For someone who's not "the decider," it seems everything depends on your decision.

Re: the pumpkin seeds, it wasn't an issue of whether I could "decide"; as you'll recall, I was trying to get a definitive answer on the calc/phos ratio, as the conflicting info didn't make sense to me. Since that was never resolved, I presented the issue to the group (this was probably before you were involved in that level of discussion, if you know what I mean), including the confusing calc/phos ratio. I argued for eliminating them, but as I said, the group as a whole (especially the flyer folks) felt strongly they should stay in. Let me spell it out, once more: I didn't decide, the group decided. In fact, they went against my recommendation.

As for the vitamin A, I don't think you and I are exactly a quorum, so unfortunately, it looks like we'll have to await more input from others.

[PBluejay2]

You heard her, folks--put down the popcorn!

[PBluejay2]

And the copyright?

[Busysqrl]

Well, I'm certainly not a senior member here nor a nutritionist, but I have done a little research on my own this week about the issue of oxalic acid and what I found was that not only does it not affect the uptake of calcium in any other food that might be consumed in the same meal as the oxalic acid rich item, the calcium blocking effect of it is minimal. So some (maybe even most) of the calcium within the food item with the oxalic acid in it would be available for uptake. It also indicated that unless you have a predisposition to the kidney stones, the comsumption of oxalic acid rich foods is unlikely to cause kidney stones. It did say that if you're predisposed to kidney stones, you may wish to limit those foods high in oxalic acid. Here are a couple of links. . .

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/QAA400344/Avoid-Vegetables-with-Oxalic-Acid.html

http://oxalicacidinfo.com/

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/Other/oxalic.html

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=45

http://blog.nutritiondata.com/ndblog/2009/08/oxalates-calcium-and-iron-less-to-worry-about-than-you-might-think.html

http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/health/az1042.pdf

Again, I'm certainly no expert, just reporting what I've found this week.

Regarding the Vit A issue, what has been said about plant forms of Vit A makes sense to me although I've not done any research on it. I would be in favor of removing the asterisks as it seems that feeding Vit A rich foods could be fed more than what the healthy list currently indicates.

There's another issue I would like to ask about and maybe this should be another thread and it's about the brassica group. There seems to be some research out there that indicates these foods contain an enzyme that inhibits iodine uptake which is important for proper thyroid function. Is this an issue that's been discussed in the past? If so, what was the consensus about this?

[jfischer]

Hey I am just a dumb old blond or white headed. I have had my squirrel for about 2 1/2 years. I am been following the Healthy Diet on TBS and feeding HHB. So far my squirrel is very healthy.

I did not know a thing about a squirrel's diet and I know my squirrel probably would have died by now had I not discovered the Healthy Diet and the Squirrel Block Recipe by 4S. Her fur was not shinney at all. After making the blocks and changing Peanut's diet, I immediately saw the change in her fur and she is more healthy. I need to keep her healthy due to living in an illegal state. And I appreciate all the hard work that has gone into this effort by the TBS Members. I know that you can not satisfy everyone on this board, but I am a very satisfied member with all the information that has been provided on nutrition.

I will continue to stick to the Healthy Diet and have printed several copies, incase someone changes it to be not so healty.

[Ardilla]

I was already clear in my opinion that beta-carotene rich foods should no longer be red-flagged with asterisks.

I also PMed Squerly my concerns about the copyright issue.

[4skwerlz]

Sorry, it was time for my nap. :D

About vitamin A, just to recap, here are the concerns:

1. We are talking about concentrations of one nutrient (beta-carotene) at extremely high levels: currently around 700% of the recommended amount, and I guess the proposed increase would push it well into the 2000% range. When retinoid intake is adequate (as it would be with the healthy diet), all of this beta-carotene would be "excess" which means it would be stored in the fat. This can cause you to turn orange. In humans, that can occur at 10X recommended levels. This also seems, on the face of it, to violate the principle of a "balanced diet."

2. Though not actually toxic, beta-carotene does interact and interfere with the absorption of other nutrients. For example, the various carotenids all compete with one another. High beta-carotene intake suppresses lycopene, which is vital for eye health, and its function cannot be replaced by beta-carotene. Beta-carotene also plays a role in bone-building, and at least one study found high intake associated with osteoporosis in humans (this is not conclusive by any means of course; it's just one study that I know of). And it is better established that beta-carotene interferes with vitamin E absorption. This has been found specifically in rats (i.e., tissue concentrations of vit E were half the normal level when given excess beta-carotene), which is concerning, at least to me. Vit A is abundant in foods; vitamin E much less so.

3. Some of the high-vit-A foods are also quite energy dense, such as sweet potato. So in that case, there are two areas of concern.

4. Dr. Calvert asserted that these foods should never be fed to squirrels.

I like to err on the side of caution, always. I know that personally, I would limit these foods for my own squirrel, but the issue is whether we're going to change or remove the limits on the Healthy Diet.

And frankly, I'm curious why the huge "pro vitamin A" push?

[PBluejay2]

Sorry, it was time for my nap. :D

About vitamin A, just to recap, here are the concerns:

1. We are talking about concentrations of one nutrient (beta-carotene) at extremely high levels: currently around 700% of the recommended amount, and I guess the proposed increase would push it well into the 2000% range. When retinoid intake is adequate (as it would be with the healthy diet), all of this beta-carotene would be "excess" which means it would be stored in the fat. This can cause you to turn orange. In humans, that can occur at 10X recommended levels. This also seems, on the face of it, to violate the principle of a "balanced diet."

2. Though not actually toxic, beta-carotene does interact and interfere with the absorption of other nutrients. For example, the various carotenids all compete with one another. High beta-carotene intake suppresses lycopene, which is vital for eye health, and its function cannot be replaced by beta-carotene. Beta-carotene also plays a role in bone-building, and at least one study found high intake associated with osteoporosis in humans (this is not conclusive by any means of course; it's just one study that I know of). And it is better established that beta-carotene interferes with vitamin E absorption. This has been found specifically in rats (i.e., tissue concentrations of vit E were half the normal level when given excess beta-carotene), which is concerning, at least to me. Vit A is abundant in foods; vitamin E much less so.

3. Some of the high-vit-A foods are also quite energy dense, such as sweet potato. So in that case, there are two areas of concern.

4. Dr. Calvert asserted that these foods should never be fed to squirrels.

I like to err on the side of caution, always. I know that personally, I would limit these foods for my own squirrel, but the issue is whether we're going to change or remove the limits on the Healthy Diet.

And frankly, I'm curious why the huge "pro vitamin A" push?

It's not a "pro vitamin A push." It's a push not to limit foods because of bad information. I think the greater variety we offer the better. Please include your sources when you borrow info.

[4skwerlz]

It's not a "pro vitamin A push." It's a push not to limit foods because of bad information. I think the greater variety we offer the better. Please include your sources when you borrow info.

Which of this information is bad?

[PBluejay2]

Which of this information is bad?

“Avoid spinach; it is high in oxalates, which can block calcium absorption.” (unless you're talking about the calcium IN the spinach)


“**Very high in Vit. A. Don’t feed more than one tablespoon per month to avoid toxicity.”

[4skwerlz]

“Avoid spinach; it is high in oxalates, which can block calcium absorption.” (unless you're talking about the calcium IN the spinach)

Well it does block the calcium in the spinach, all but about 5% of it. Leaving a true calc/phos ratio of 1:10, hardly a healthy ratio. And I thought you were the one who was so focused on the ratios?

Spinach has long been believed to be a good calcium source in a squirrel's diet; many rehabbers still believe it. It's been a hard slog to get rid of that idea. So I thought it was important to not just eliminate spinach from the list, but to explain that it is not a good calcium source.



“**Very high in Vit. A. Don’t feed more than one tablespoon per month to avoid toxicity.”

Is THAT your beef? Well, I suppose it could say "to avoid excessive intake" or "to avoid interfering with absorption of other nutrients." Would that be better?

[PBluejay2]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PBluejay2
“Avoid spinach; it is high in oxalates, which can block calcium absorption.” (unless you're talking about the calcium IN the spinach)

4skwerlz:
Well it does block the calcium in the spinach, all but about 5% of it. Leaving a true calc/phos ratio of 1:10, hardly a healthy ratio. And I thought you were the one who was so focused on the ratios?

So I've gotten you to concede it block the calcium in the spinach only--good. Now as far as your 10:1 ratio, it's my understanding that calcium and phosphorus compete against each other. You can't reduce the amount of calcium in your equation without also reducing the phosphorus (They sort of cancel each other out). If you do so, that 5% is absorbable calcium, unimpeded by phosphorus, so while spinach may not be the greatest source of calcium, it is still a source.

And I thought you were the one that said the calcium to phosphorus ratio of the foods didn't really matter?

4skwerlz:
Spinach has long been believed to be a good calcium source in a squirrel's diet; many rehabbers still believe it. It's been a hard slog to get rid of that idea. So I thought it was important to not just eliminate spinach from the list, but to explain that it is not a good calcium source.



Quote:
Originally Posted by PBluejay2
“**Very high in Vit. A. Don’t feed more than one tablespoon per month to avoid toxicity.”

4skwerlz:
Is THAT your beef? Well, I suppose it could say "to avoid excessive intake" or "to avoid interfering with absorption of other nutrients." Would that be better?

No, that's not my "beef." My "beef" is that this was BAD information (no toxicity)and on the basis of that bad iunformation we have been limiting diet selections.

If you want to keep parsing words, 4S, go ahead, but since you seem to be in control of this forum, tell me how many people it will take to agree that the flags on these foods should be removed before YOU do so. I think if you'll look back, most so far who have posted do.

Now about that copyright . . .
__________________

[4skwerlz]

So I've gotten you to concede it block the calcium in the spinach only--good. Now as far as your 10:1 ratio, it's my understanding that calcium and phosphorus compete against each other. You can't reduce the amount of calcium in your equation without also reducing the phosphorus (They sort of cancel each other out). If you do so, that 5% is absorbable calcium, unimpeded by phosphorus, so while spinach may not be the greatest source of calcium, it is still a source.

And I thought you were the one that said the calcium to phosphorus ratio of the foods didn't really matter?

No, that's not my "beef." My "beef" is that this was BAD information (no toxicity)and on the basis of that bad iunformation we have been limiting diet selections.

If you want to keep parsing words, 4S, go ahead, but since you seem to be in control of this forum, tell me how many people it will take to agree that the flags on these foods should be removed before YOU do so. I think if you'll look back, most so far who have posted do.

Now about that copyright . . .
__________________

Parsing words? Heavens. You start this whole dust-up, and attack the Healthy Diet because the word "toxicity" should have been "excessive intake" or some such and I'm the one parsing words?

And certainly whether the calcium blocked by the spinach is IN the spinach and or in some other food in the stomach, makes zero difference nutritionally.

I'm not sure I understand your point about the phosphorus. It seems a little confused, or maybe I'm just confused.

Some of your assertions and questions suggest that you haven't really done the groundwork, crunched the numbers, read the research. I have. Hundreds of hours worth (I know, get a life, right? :D ) It doesn't seem like you've even gone back and read all the threads concerning the development of the Healthy Diet. I mean, you don't seem familiar the theory or thinking behind it, the criteria used, etc. Don't you think before you challenge something you should understand it?

[PBluejay2]

Parsing words? Heavens. You start this whole dust-up, and attack the Healthy Diet because the word "toxicity" should have been "excessive intake" or some such and I'm the one parsing words?

And certainly whether the calcium blocked by the spinach is IN the spinach and or in some other food in the stomach, makes zero difference nutritionally.

I'm not sure I understand your point about the phosphorus. It seems a little confused, or maybe I'm just confused.

Some of your assertions and questions suggest that you haven't really done the groundwork, crunched the numbers, read the research. I have. Hundreds of hours worth (I know, get a life, right? :D ) It doesn't seem like you've even gone back and read all the threads concerning the development of the Healthy Diet. I mean, you don't seem familiar the theory or thinking behind it, the criteria used, etc. Don't you think before you challenge something you should understand it?

I think it's fairly clear to most that I have researched this particular issue and have presented convincing arguments along with citing my sources. Since you want to get personal, I think you vehemently react against any challenges to your "authority" and will defend your position, perhaps ego, tenaciously, obstinately regardless if anyone else (particularly me) has a valid argument.

That being said, you still haven't answered my questions about 1) Just how many members have to say that they want the flags taken off before you do? and 2) Don't you think any copyright to the Healthy Diet ought to belong to TSB itself and not a company or individual that advertises, markets, sells a product on the board?

[4skwerlz]

I think it's fairly clear to most that I have researched this particular issue and have presented convincing arguments along with citing my sources. Since you want to get personal, I think you vehemently react against any challenges to your "authority" and will defend your position, perhaps ego, tenaciously, obstinately regardless if anyone else (particularly me) has a valid argument.

That being said, you still haven't answered my questions about 1) Just how many members have to say that they want the flags taken off before you do? and 2) Don't you think any copyright to the Healthy Diet ought to belong to TSB itself and not a company or individual that advertises, markets, sells a product on the board?

I'd prefer not to get personal, since this is presumably a discussion about nutrition.

Convincing arguments for what? If you're talking about the mechanisms of vitamin A metabolism, I was already well aware of those. I hope you're not suggesting that I believed beta-carotene was "toxic" in strict sense of the word. Heavens, that's nutrition 101. But if you object to the word "toxicity," as I said, I have no problem changing it to "an excessive amount of vitamin A" and "that could possibly have negative effects depending on the rest of the diet" or some such. The goal of the Healthy Diet is to give clear and simple instructions on what to feed, to present an optimum or ideal diet, not to give a one-page lecture in nutrition science. That's one reason we got rid of the ratios; too confusing for most folks.

As for the "vote," there are a number of voices missing in this discussion, folks who normally participate. And frankly I can understand why, as this thread is, let us say, not a pleasant place to be.

As for the copyright, as I said before, if you have issues with that I suggest you take them up with Admin. And I hope you'll share their response with everyone.

[PBluejay2]

:shakehead

Okay "unheard voices"--remove the flags or not?

[4skwerlz]

So you have no response to the concerns I mentioned earlier about beta-carotene?

[PBluejay2]

So you have no response to the concerns I mentioned earlier about beta-carotene?

Like you, I can keep looking up things and posting it (Unlike you, however, I'd credit my sources). Basically, my points are that people were needlessly cautioned against certain foods when they shouldn't have and the cautions were based on false premises.

I also think that if the truth be known, MANY people, including your followers, give their squirrels these vegetables on a regular basis with no ill effect.

Now since you refuse to answer my question as to whether or not YOU think that the Healthy Diet, developed by members of the board, should be the property of the board but suggested I take it up with admin, I assume you feel entitled to ownership.

Anyway, I've said my piece regarding the issue of removing the flags, and you've said yours, and as best I could I've tolerated your condescention, and until your most recent posts (if you haven't modified them too) you've been somewhat tolerant of my profound ignorance.

Again, so far I think you'll find that most who have posted either want the flags off or admit to not adhering to the Healthy Diet and feeding their charges the foods in question. If you can tell me who those "unheard voices" you are waiting on are, I'd appreciate it so I can check them off.

Let's let others chime in--if they will.

[4skwerlz]

Like you, I can keep looking up things and posting it (Unlike you, however, I'd credit my sources). Basically, my points are that people were needlessly cautioned against certain foods when they shouldn't have and the cautions were based on false premises.

I also think that if the truth be known, MANY people, including your followers, give their squirrels these vegetables on a regular basis with no ill effect.

Now since you refuse to answer my question as to whether or not YOU think that the Healthy Diet, developed by members of the board, should be the property of the board but suggested I take it up with admin, I assume you feel entitled to ownership.

Anyway, I've said my piece regarding the issue of removing the flags, and you've said yours, and as best I could I've tolerated your condescention, and until your most recent posts (if you haven't modified them too) you've been somewhat tolerant of my profound ignorance.

Again, so far I think you'll find that most who have posted either want the flags off or admit to not adhering to the Healthy Diet and feeding their charges the foods in question. If you can tell me who those "unheard voices" you are waiting on are, I'd appreciate it so I can check them off.

Let's let others chime in--if they will.

Like I said, I'd prefer not to get personal.

Regarding the copyright, again, it was all done in consultation with TSB Admin and if they have any concerns about it or want to change anything, I hope they'll let me know. I would certainly do whatever it takes to further the nutrition project here at TSB.

Anyhoo, back to nutrition....yes, I presented my concerns (in post #64) but you haven't addressed them.

[muffinsquirrel]

:wave123 Hi, everyone. 'Unheard voice' chiming in here :D . I have been following, and enjoying, this discussion, even if I haven't been posting.

When Dr. Cooley has preformed necropsies on flyers for NFSA and others, he has mentioned concern that he has seen signs of over-supplementing vitamins. For this reason, I am overly careful about adding vitamins to my squirrels diet. I DO feed HHB to them, but not as many as is suggested. The only 'supplement' I feed, if it could be called that, is yogurt. I follow the 'healthy diet' to some extent, but definately not to the letter. I feed carrots, corn, sweet potato, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds, peanuts, etc. But these things are not fed every day, or even every week. I feel that as long as I feed a variety of foods, my squirrels, just like the wilds in the woods, will get what they need. I DO push the calcium, and feed a good bit of protien, since they can't get these things on their own like the wilds can. I would love to know the percentage of protien needed, however. I rarely feed meal worms, mainly because I don't like to mess with them. Mine get freeze dried chicken or Chicken Poppers or Chicken Chips, all of them found in the dog treats department. The Chicken Poppers are chicken and rice, the other two are 100% chicken - no additives.

muffinsquirrel

[4skwerlz]

I would love to know the percentage of protien needed, however.

muffinsquirrel

:wave123 I can give you the protein requirement for rats (it's about a teaspoon of Now protein isolate per day for a grey; probably less for a flyer). But it sounds like with the chicken, yours are getting all the protein they need.

I don't think anyone follows the HD exactly; I guess the idea is that the HD be so "ideal" that you can deviate quite a bit and still be "good to go."

BTW, it has been mentioned that flyers seemed to do better with cod liver oil versus a vitamin A supplement, and I was puzzled by that. After some thought, the main difference is that the vitamin A in CLO is all retinol rather than carotene (animal source versus plant source). This area of nutrition is actually the subject of some interest in the research right now. It appears that the animal sources of vitamin A could possibly have unique nutritional properties that cannot be duplicated by the carotenes. Interesting question: Would the main source of vitamin A for squirrels in the wild be primarily animal or plant? Hmmmm.:thinking

I wish we could have pursued the flyer deaths further....

[Giftee's Mom]

In my humble opinion, the HD is the diet 4skwerlz developed mostly on her own, but with input from TSB members.

I would say the great majority of us don't care who copyrights the diet. It doesn't matter, no one is making money from the diet. Most of us are simply concerned about providing the best for our squirrels.

I may step out of line here, but since joining this board, it has appeared that certain members have some sort of a control issue with 4s's healthy diet. I think it's obvious. Maybe these members really do have good intentions but come across as nit-picking, kind of mean-spirited and also maybe a little envious. Let me say this: the most important thing is the health of our little squirrels, not individual recognition.

However, from what I can tell, 4s is well able to shoot down any little nit-picky thing that certain members can throw at her. Go, nutritional guru, go!!

As far I am concerned, it is 4skwerlz's nutritional advice I seek out and 4skwerlz's nutritional advice I shall follow. Let's give credit where credit is due!

This is all just my opinion, ya'll. . . :)

[crazysquirrels]

I don't want to but here goes.
The bottom line is simple. Alot of squirrel died due to eating something they shouldn't have in large quantities. Bird seed right? If I were to grow a vegatable patch and put all the veggies in it I could think of. Jackie would eat most is safe quantities. However a homed squirrel does not have this choice. They eat what we feed them. So it is up to the human to properly feed them. Nobody argues that right?
For instance. If I fed Jackie just 5 peanuts a week she would be OK. Is it good for her or is it bad? She eats very healthy and has a treat. She loves spinich. I give her some but in small quantities. All her food is in quantities.
Another one. She love zuccini flowers. Not zuccini but only the flower. Has no real nutrition, I think. But she will eat them all the time. Is it good or bad? I don't know. I watch how she reacts. Her instinks have to be able to tell her if the food is good or not.
Now you two are arguing on a different level. Percentages of intake vs what is absorbed and used. Now I trust both of you and the info you give. I don't require to know the source. You two need to hug and we need to move forward on this.

[PBluejay2]

Okay, 4s, here's what I found about your concern about interactions with other cartenoids. The source emphasizes differences between Beta carotene derived from dietary sources (food) and Beta Carotene derived from supplements (which are added to blocks). Even in pregnant women it says there is no need to limit the intake of Beta carotene from dietary sources. I've also included a link to the source if anyone wishes to read the entire thing. I hope you will cite yours also.

Toxicity
Beta-CaroteneAlthough beta-carotene can be converted to vitamin A, the conversion of beta-carotene to vitamin A decreases when body stores of vitamin A are high. This may explain why high doses of beta-carotene have never been found to cause vitamin A toxicity (103). High doses of beta-carotene (up to 180 mg/day) have been used to treat erythropoietic protoporphyria, a photosensitivity disorder, without toxic side effects (6).

Carotenodermia: High doses of beta-carotene supplements (30 mg/day or more) and the consumption of large amounts of carotene-rich foods have resulted in a yellow discoloration of the skin known as carotenodermia. Carotenodermia is not associated with any underlying health problems and resolves when beta-carotene supplements are discontinued or dietary carotene intake is reduced.

Beta-Carotene
Because it is has vitamin A activity, beta-carotene may be used to provide all or part of the vitamin A in multivitamin supplements. The vitamin A activity of beta-carotene from supplements is much higher than that of beta-carotene from foods. It takes only 2 mcg (0.002 mg) of beta-carotene from supplements to provide 1 mcg of retinol (preformed vitamin A). The beta-carotene content of supplements is often listed in international units (IU) rather than mcg; 3,000 mcg (3 mg) of beta-carotene provides 5,000 IU of vitamin A. Most commercial supplements contain 5,000-25,000 IU of beta-carotene (100).

Other Carotenoids

Unlike vitamin A, high doses of beta-carotene taken by pregnant women have not been associated with increased risk of birth defects (6). However, the safety of high-dose beta-carotene supplements in pregnancy and lactation has not been well-studied. Although there is no reason to limit dietary beta-carotene intake, pregnant and breast-feeding women should avoid consuming more than 3 mg/day (5,000 IU/day) of beta-carotene from supplements unless they prescribed under medical supervision (102, 103)

The safety of carotenoid supplements other than beta-carotene in pregnancy and lactation has not been established, so pregnant and breastfeeding women should obtain carotenoids from foods rather than supplements. There is no reason to limit the consumption of carotenoid-rich fruits and vegetables during pregnancy (102, 105).

Interactions Among Carotenoids

The results of metabolic studies suggest that high doses [from the word "doses" I infer this means of supplements] of beta-carotene compete with lutein and lycopene for absorption when consumed at the same time (119-121). However, the consumption of high-dose beta-carotene supplements did not adversely affect serum carotenoid concentrations in long-term clinical trials (122-125).

http://www.nutritional-supplements-health-guide.com/beta-carotene-toxicity.html

[4skwerlz]

Thanks for the snippets. None of that addresses my concerns in post #64. (And you have to be careful using human dietary guidelines for squirrels because of the difference in body size. For a grey squirrel to eat 6 tbsp per week of sweet potato would be like a 150-lb human eating 33 pounds of sweet potatoes per week; for a flyer, 175 lbs.)

Your link took me to a site selling supplements and I didn't see the last few paragraphs there.

I don't see the point, since you do not seem to ever read them, but here is the finding of most concern. If you want the other references I can look them up later.

"High intakes of either retinyl palmitate (42 µmol/kg diet) or beta-carotene (89 µmol/kg diet) depressed plasma and liver concentrations of a-tocopherol to about one-half the normal concentrations (Blakely et al., 1990). It seems probable that high concentrations of vitamin A in the diet interfere with the absorption of vitamin E. " [This is in rats; not humans.]

Nutrient Requirements of Laboratory Animals, Fourth Revised Edition, 1995, Subcommittee on Laboratory Animal Nutrition, Board on Agriculture, National Research Council, National Academy Press: Washington, D.C. 1995 (p. 42)

Blakely, S. R., E. Grundel, M. Y. Jenkins, and G. V. Mitchell. 1990. Alterations in beta-carotene and vitamin E status in rats fed beta-carotene and excess vitamin A. Nutr. Res. 10:1035–1044.

[jacey]

I am very thankful to 4S and this board for all of the extensive research on nutrition for all of our beloved fuzzers everywhere. I have been using an older recipe of 4S's blocks for over a year now with great success. I do not add vitamin A or cod liver oil to my blocks because I feel that they do get enough from the sweet potato, squash and greens that I feed regularly. I thank 4S for discussing this with me many months ago. I do try to follow the healthy diet posted but sometimes with some squirrels it just isn't possible. I do not feed sunflower seeds but admit to feeding fresh corn once a week sometimes more depending on the squirrel. I feed a variety of greens daily including kale and sometimes spinach constantly changing to entice them to eat them. I also am a big yogurt fan and sometimes will syringe it to my non-releases and my flyer gets a dab every night. There is not a concrete perfect diet for squirrels that I am aware of but I truely believe that the information on this board is the best available at this time. I offer all of my squirrels non- releases and rehab squirrels the same diet consisting of squirrel blocks, rodent blocks, a variety of veggies, sweet potato, or blackberries, rosehips, pine cones, crapemyrtle twigs, avacado, limited corn, mealworms etc.. At night I feed 2 acorns, a hazelnut and maybe a hickory nut or piece of shelled pecan. I let them choose what they need and want for the day, and if they ate decent then they get their nuts at bedtime. I also have mineral blocks and calcium blocks in all cages.
Again, my sincere thanks to 4S and to this board for all of your time and research making it so easy for people needing information to be able to get good accurate information, resulting in saving more and more everyday of all of our favorite little precious creatures!!!

[4skwerlz]

I am very thankful to 4S and this board for all of the extensive research on nutrition for all of our beloved fuzzers everywhere. I have been using an older recipe of 4S's blocks for over a year now with great success. I do not add vitamin A or cod liver oil to my blocks because I feel that they do get enough from the sweet potato, squash and greens that I feed regularly. I thank 4S for discussing this with me many months ago. I do try to follow the healthy diet posted but sometimes with some squirrels it just isn't possible. I do not feed sunflower seeds but admit to feeding fresh corn once a week sometimes more depending on the squirrel. I feed a variety of greens daily including kale and sometimes spinach constantly changing to entice them to eat them. I also am a big yogurt fan and sometimes will syringe it to my non-releases and my flyer gets a dab every night. There is not a concrete perfect diet for squirrels that I am aware of but I truely believe that the information on this board is the best available at this time. I offer all of my squirrels non- releases and rehab squirrels the same diet consisting of squirrel blocks, rodent blocks, a variety of veggies, sweet potato, or blackberries, rosehips, pine cones, crapemyrtle twigs, avacado, limited corn, mealworms etc.. At night I feed 2 acorns, a hazelnut and maybe a hickory nut or piece of shelled pecan. I let them choose what they need and want for the day, and if they ate decent then they get their nuts at bedtime. I also have mineral blocks and calcium blocks in all cages.
Again, my sincere thanks to 4S and to this board for all of your time and research making it so easy for people needing information to be able to get good accurate information, resulting in saving more and more everyday of all of our favorite little precious creatures!!!

You're so very welcome. And thanks to everyone else who posted kind words. If we've improved the diet of our squirrels even a little bit, that's what makes it all worthwhile.:thumbsup

[4skwerlz]

Rather than continuing to debate the mechanisms of vitamin A metabolism (yawn), how about this:

What I'm hearing from everyone is that you all feed your squirrels sweet potato pretty regularly, in moderation. It sounds like "moderation" is around three times per week. Is that right? So how about if we change the wording to something like "these foods should be fed in moderation, no more than 3 times per week."

If that sounds good to most of you, then I'll make the changes and then submit the revised version for comments.

Everyone cool with that?

[PBluejay2]

Thanks for the snippets. None of that addresses my concerns in post #64. (And you have to be careful using human dietary guidelines for squirrels because of the difference in body size. For a grey squirrel to eat 6 tbsp per week of sweet potato would be like a 150-lb human eating 33 pounds of sweet potatoes per week; for a flyer, 175 lbs.)

First, your use of six tablespoons seems rather arbitrary. Why not four? eight? twelve? I fed my squirrels sweet potato this morning and weighed two random "chunks." The weight was 6 grams, or .21 ounces. Going on weight, not volume, if I fed this amount three times a week, that would equal .63 ounces. If there are two tablespoons per ounce, that means each tablespoon would weigh .5 ounces, so mine would eat a a little over 1/6 of the amount you used as reference. I think that 150 human could handle 5.5 pounds of sweet potato a week--of course that human might get sick of the thought of them rather than from them.

It's true this article is about Beta carotene in humans, but it stands to reason chemical reactions are chemical reactions. Regardless, you/we are basing our diets for our squirrels on laboratory experiments on rats. There can be vast differences there also (between species). Also, the Nutrient Requirements for Laboratory Animals that you cite, and I think you based your formulation for HHBs on, and the rest of the healthy diet on, bases its findings for rats on 15 grams per rat per day for maintenance, and while weights of species vary, the average rat seems to be about the weight of a gray squirrel. At 15 grams per day, the rat is eating about 1/4 of its body weight per week, not its body weight per week as we assume for squirrels. I assume your calculations took this into consideration. Otherwise, we might already be giving squirrels four times of every nutrient that they need. (assuming they actually DO eat their body weight a week).

Anyway, I thought this specifically addressed your concern about the interaction, particularly with lycopene, of Beta carotene with other cartenoinds:

The results of metabolic studies suggest that high doses [from the word "doses" I infer this means of supplements] of beta-carotene compete with lutein and lycopene for absorption when consumed at the same time (119-121). However, the consumption of high-dose beta-carotene supplements did not adversely affect serum carotenoid concentrations in long-term clinical trials (122-125).

Your link took me to a site selling supplements and I didn't see the last few paragraphs there.

I apologize. I pasted the wrong link. The information came from Oregan State University's Linus Pauling Institute which specializes in micronutrient research.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/phytochemicals/carotenoids/

I don't see the point, since you do not seem to ever read them, but here is the finding of most concern. If you want the other references I can look them up later.

It's difficult to maintain a civilized discussion with you if you insist on being so insulting. Of course, if I react I risk attack from higher powers, so I'll just let you know I'm trying.

"High intakes of either retinyl palmitate (42 µmol/kg diet) or beta-carotene (89 µmol/kg diet) depressed plasma and liver concentrations of a-tocopherol to about one-half the normal concentrations (Blakely et al., 1990). It seems probable that high concentrations of vitamin A in the diet interfere with the absorption of vitamin E. " [This is in rats; not humans.]

Again this is in humans, so you may discredit if you will, but it seems the idea that Beta carotene interferes with vitamin E is is quite controversial:

"Not all researchers agree that beta-carotene diminishes vitamin E supplies. "In most of the large-scale clinical trials involving beta-carotene supplements there has not been a significant effect on plasma vitamin E," argues Robert S. Parker of Cornell University."

Furthermore, the studies on rats used Beta carotene supplements, and as with its reactions with other substances, there might be great differences between how naturally occurring Beta carotene found in food and that in supplements might affect any other nutrient.

And finally, an irony is that some of the foods black-listed because you think they might interfere with vitamin E are also some of the ones ones highest in vitamin E:

"The richest source of vitamin E is wheat germ.
Other foods that contain a significant amount of vitamin E include:
• Liver
• Eggs
• Nuts (almonds, hazelnuts, and walnuts)
• Sunflower seeds
• Corn-oil margarine
• Mayonnaise
• Cold-pressed vegetable oils, including olive, corn, safflower,
soybean, cottonseed, and canola
• Dark green leafy vegetables like spinach and kale• Greens (beet, collard, mustard, turnip) sweet potatoes• Avocado
• Asparagus
• Yams

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/vitamin-e-000341.htm
.

with sweet potato being one of the highest, if the the highest, vegetable sources:

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5554.html

Nutrient Requirements of Laboratory Animals, Fourth Revised Edition, 1995, Subcommittee on Laboratory Animal Nutrition, Board on Agriculture, National Research Council, National Academy Press: Washington, D.C. 1995 (p. 42)

Blakely, S. R., E. Grundel, M. Y. Jenkins, and G. V. Mitchell. 1990. Alterations in beta-carotene and vitamin E status in rats fed beta-carotene and excess vitamin A. Nutr. Res. 10:1035–1044.

These are, of course, from the same source, the NRLA, but thank your for taking the time to type them both out.



PBJ

[4skwerlz]

Rather than continuing to debate the mechanisms of vitamin A metabolism (yawn), how about this:

What I'm hearing from everyone is that you all feed your squirrels sweet potato pretty regularly, in moderation. It sounds like "moderation" is around three times per week. Is that right? So how about if we change the wording to something like "these foods should be fed in moderation, no more than 3 times per week."

If that sounds good to most of you, then I'll make the changes and then submit the revised version for comments.

Everyone cool with that?

[PBluejay2]

Rather than continuing to debate the mechanisms of vitamin A metabolism (yawn), how about this:

What I'm hearing from everyone is that you all feed your squirrels sweet potato pretty regularly, in moderation. It sounds like "moderation" is around three times per week. Is that right? So how about if we change the wording to something like "these foods should be fed in moderation, no more than 3 times per week."

If that sounds good to most of you, then I'll make the changes and then submit the revised version for comments.

Everyone cool with that?

:thumbsup Cool!

[scoobysnack]

In moderation with, an explanation of what can be considered moderation, sounds reasonable to me.

[Administration]

Re: the question about the copyright...


The underlying purpose of TSB is to provide a safe, healthy environment for Squirrels (and other related animals) and also to those who deal with Squirrels. With that in mind, the administration states the following:

1. TSB has no vested interest in the copyright of the Healthy Diet. No parties were contracted to create it, and as publicly posted information is available to anyone to use and modify as they choose. It is in fact posted as a living document, subject to change and modification as research progresses.

2. The copyrighted product Henry's Healthy Blocks is a result of that same diet mentioned above, and the copyright as such applies to anyone making their own Blocks for profit. Members doing so are requested to consult with 4Skwerlz.

3. TSB encourages the initiative and effort of all members in developing any product expressly created for improving the health and environment of squirrels. In this instance, Henry's Healthy Blocks have been successfully tried and proven by 4Skwerlz, with several concurring testimonials as posted here at TSB.

4. TSB will consider any documented evidence that the Healthy Diet and/or Henry's Healthy Blocks has lead to the death of any animal consuming same. Until then, no Disclaimers or Warnings will be posted.

[Ardilla]

Rather than continuing to debate the mechanisms of vitamin A metabolism (yawn), how about this:

What I'm hearing from everyone is that you all feed your squirrels sweet potato pretty regularly, in moderation. It sounds like "moderation" is around three times per week. Is that right? So how about if we change the wording to something like "these foods should be fed in moderation, no more than 3 times per week."

If that sounds good to most of you, then I'll make the changes and then submit the revised version for comments.

Everyone cool with that?


I'm SO sorry it took me so long to come back in this thread. My daughter was admitted to the hospital for pneumonia last Sunday night/Monday morning right after you posted this, so all last week I was caught up with that.

This sounds great to me as well.:thumbsup I'd love to see this change to the healthy diet thread.

[Jackie in Tampa]

:thinking wow...this is alot of info...
and all very interesting...

I being a non study'er..[hate research]...love to read others research...

Just wanted to say that sqs and peeps ARE very different in requirements and thank goodness...I hate acorns...omgosh they're gross!
and worms..yuck yuck!

When you are studyinmg animals...human nutrition can go only so far...you must use research that pertains to what you are feeding...and their actual intake and requirements...
the last time someone brought in a human nutritionist to work on sqs diet...:thinking :thinking we ended up with scalded milk...:yuck :eek: :shakehead
yes Virginia, Clarissa used a human nutritionist to design her recipes!

I hate using rat nutrition, but it is the closest thing we have to go on...in the RESEARCHED department anyways!
I think anything in moderation is worth trying...

Once Sarah [one of TSBs healther sqs] vomiteed eating eggplant, it was time to reconsider it...no more NIGHTSHADE in our bowls:nono
Same with raw chestnuts...:nono
We ARE writing THE SQ BOOK!

I am very limited to study...but 'my hands on' has taught me alot!:peace

[PBluejay2]

Yeah, Jackie--everything's a gray area, really. So many differences exist between rats and squirrels, we're going on as much hope as science, I think. It's just a little ironic, however, that many things about our nutritional needs (humans) and also medicines and diseases have been discovered through experimentation with/on rats.

[PBluejay2]

:the last time someone brought in a human nutritionist to work on sqs diet...:thinking :thinking we ended up with scalded milk...:yuck :eek: :shakehead
yes Virginia, Clarissa used a human nutritionist to design her recipes!



Just out of curiosity, I tried to find where Clarissa actually consulted a nutritionist. All I can find is that she referred to some books by Adelle Davis (a pioneer in nutrition), not that she actually consulted her. And from what I can tell, she used this information to develop her nutballs, not the scalded milk idea. Anyway, from what I can tell, I think most are agreeable to the changes in the Healthy Diet.

[scoobysnack]

The changes seem agreeable to me. I'm looking forward to seeing the revisions.

[4skwerlz]

As I mentioned, I was already in the middle of a major overhaul of the Diet and will be submitting other parts for suggestions from you guys.