two squirrels vomitting/1 inactive/ 1 throwing herself around

[JSTAZ]

Hi, my best friend has two female squirrels I believe they are 5mo. and 2yrs old. The youngest one seemed to be feeling sick the other day and was vomiting she gave it some pedialyte and it drank quite a bit and just laid in it's bed for the day then that night her 2yr old started acting sick so she started her on pedialyte and only got her to drink a little. Today the oldest was out of bed this am and ate a piece of apple, and peed and pooped had a hard time getting back up to her bed needed help seemed weak. The 5mo old is growling and she said she's kind freaking out throwing herself around her cage. She said the little one doesn't want to be touched and just occasionally runs around throwing herself against the wall. When she gets close to her it seems to make matters worse. Do you have any idea what is happening to her squirrels.

[psychotic feather]

When the squirrel people get here they will want to know everything that you are feeding them.

[4skwerlz]

What is their diet? Quick. This could be calcium deficiency, which is fatal.

[JSTAZ]

My friend Meg (Ava and Zoe's Mom) is on the phone with me so we are ready to answer any questions.

[Nancy in New York]

I personally think that anytime we hear these symptoms we should start with the calcium and then let the person asking for help keep explaining more and more. It may not be calcium...but seriously, why take the chance. I have seen a couple of times people come on here and within hours their little ones die...Push the calcium, ask questions as we go along...

[PBluejay2]

My friend Meg (Ava and Zoe's Mom) is on the phone with me so we are ready to answer any questions.

This could very well be diet related. Please give in detail what they have been fed since in the care of these people. Follow 4s advice!

[4skwerlz]

Follow the below. Quick! Minutes count!

Emergency Treatment for MBD

Get calcium into the squirrel IMMEDIATELY, not later, not tomorrow, NOW. Delaying treatment can cause death or permanent paralysis.

You will need:
-Tums or calcium pills (any kind)
-a syringe, eyedropper, or spoon
Crush one pill and add a little water or fruit juice. Use the syringe, eyedropper, or spoon to force-feed the mixture, a little at a time, until it is all gone. The first day, give a total of 600-800 mg of calcium, spread throughout the day/night to maintain blood calcium levels.

Important!

1. Any kind of calcium pill is okay for the initial dose. But you must use PLAIN calcium pills (without Vit D) from then on.

2. Try to give many small doses of calcium throughout the day/night to keep blood calcium levels as steady as possible.

3. If seizures or paralysis worsen or return, give another emergency dose.

The acute symptoms (weakness, lethargy, seizures, paralysis) will usually improve within a few hours, but this does not mean the squirrel is cured. It will take many months to rebuild the calcium in the bones.

[JSTAZ]

They eat monkey chow, endive, carrots, apple, some avocado, 1 or 2 walnuts(most of the time they just hide the walnuts) on a daily basis sometimes... acorns, okra, rutabega, brocolli, strawberries, raspberries and blackberries

[4skwerlz]

Do the treatment below, then we need to assess more carefully.

The calcium won't hurt them, and if it's MBD, it will save their lives.

Do they actually EAT the monkey chow?? How much per day?

How many nuts per day? How many sunflower seeds? How much corn?

[JSTAZ]

Meg said her husband is on her way home and is stopping at the pet store...should she give her squirrels Esbilac like when they were babies or is there a certain type of calcium supplement... also why is this happening to both squirrels at the same time?

[psychobird]

how are thier poops??? i'm wondering if it could be parasitic, but yes do the calcium to rule it out

[JSTAZ]

They don't eat any corn, the older one eats probably two walnuts the little one probably half of one. The older one in the past month has been eating 1 to 3 monkey chows a day while the little one might eats about half of one. The little one likes her avocado, carrots and endive, while the big one eats everything.

[4skwerlz]

Meg said her husband is on her way home and is stopping at the pet store...should she give her squirrels Esbilac like when they were babies or is there a certain type of calcium supplement... also why is this happening to both squirrels at the same time?

If they are on the same diet/same age, it can happen at the same time.

We are not sure it is MBD; diet sounds pretty good; though the symptoms match, but it is such an emergency, you treat first and ask questions later....

Plain human calcium pills or Tums, crushed up, any kind for now. Human pills; not pet shop supplements.

Do not delay; crush up whatever calcium pill you have in the house.

Worry about Esbilac later.

[JSTAZ]

Poop is hard and dark brown and they are pooping stopped vomitting nothing to vomit I guess not drinking well today

[JSTAZ]

should she mix it with liquids and use a dropper

[CritterMom]

Definitely do the calcium - like 4skwerls said, ANY kind of calcium right now - most women take calcium supplements so they are around the house.

But both at the same time plus the vomiting is very odd, especially given the difference in age. THINK HARD. What did they eat in the 24-48 hours preceding the symptoms. Did they get out of the cage? Could they have gotten into anything - specifically, could they have eaten any houseplants? An ant trap? Anything???

[CritterMom]

And have hubby pick up a bottle of Pedialyte. Try one of the flavored ones - they usually like it and it will help with the dehydration.

[Nancy in New York]

Are these grey squirrels or flying squirrels?
Has your friend noticed any weight loss over the past couple of weeks? Has their eating decreased?

[CritterMom]

I know we are throwing this at you pretty fast. I see they have some pedialyte.

Mix the crushed calcium with either fruit juice if you have it, or even some sugar water - just something to act as a "carrier" for it and that tastes good so they will drink it. Apple juice is good, but like I said - ANYTHING a little sweet will do.

[island rehabber]

I am concerned that what is described as the younger squirrel 'throwing herself around' is, actually, a seizure. Thrashing and flailing around is what some seizures look like.....I'm thinking toxic houseplants or cleaners. Are there any diffenbachia (sp?) or pointsettias in the house that they could have gotten into? Did ANYTHING change in the past week.....new floor cleaner, new Glade Plug In, new scented candle, ANYTHING?

[CritterMom]

One more - supplemental heat. Best would be seperate small cages or carriers for each, half on and half off a heating pad set on low, with something covering the carreir. The heat will help with shock, and will help calm them. If they have MBD it is very soothing to them as well.

[JSTAZ]

ok...the only new thing for food has been dandellion greens bought from the supermarket usually they only eat them from the yard. they have big cages seperate from one another and are let out each night to play but are monitored and they'll try to chew on the window sill and stuff but are detered because they are usually playng with Meg and her husband. They really don't let them get into things they like to climb under the bed and such but the area that they are allowed in is vacuumed every night. No new candle or fragrances, She's really stumped because she is so careful about what is around them and what they eat.

[JSTAZ]

She has 350mg coral calcium capsules should she give the whole thing or half or what? she has reg pedialyte mix with that? How much for first dose? Should she do the same for the 2 yr old she's still in her bed?

[4skwerlz]

ok...the only new thing for food has been dandellion greens bought from the supermarket usually they only eat them from the yard. they have big cages seperate from one another and are let out each night to play but are monitored and they'll try to chew on the window sill and stuff but are detered because they are usually playng with Meg and her husband. They really don't let them get into things they like to climb under the bed and such but the area that they are allowed in is vacuumed every night. No new candle or fragrances, She's really stumped because she is so careful about what is around them and what they eat.

Do the calcium while we figure this out, okay?

We need a complete diet list. And how much of each thing they eat. Also, do they get ANY SUPPLEMENTS?

Also, history. What kind of formula were they raised on? At what age were they weaned? Were they weaned onto monkey blocks? At what age did they begin eating monkey blocks?

Sorry, a lot of questions.

[4skwerlz]

She has 350mg coral calcium capsules should she give the whole thing or half or what? she has reg pedialyte mix with that? How much for first dose? Should she do the same for the 2 yr old she's still in her bed?

Give 350 mg to each squirrel.

This will also help diagnose.

If you see improvement in minutes/hours, then more likely MBD.

[Nancy in New York]

"the only new thing for food has been dandellion greens bought from the supermarket"
Do they eat a lot of the greens? When were the greens gotten?
Does she use carpet freshner, the kind that you sprinkle on and vacuum up?
Febreeze?

With the calcium...do it slowly...and remember:
Crush one pill and add a little water or fruit juice. Use the syringe, eyedropper, or spoon to force-feed the mixture, a little at a time, until it is all gone. The first day, give a total of 600-800 mg of calcium, spread throughout the day/night to maintain blood calcium levels.

[JSTAZ]

Sorry for bothering you again.. she's nervous about giving the the calcium wrong how much liquid should she mix the calcium with?

[Nancy in New York]

Just a small amount is fine...the liquid doesn't matter as much as the amount of calcium she gets into them...this can also be put into apple juice or anything they will take...She can also rub their gums with molasses...just a little on her finger...

[4skwerlz]

Sorry for bothering you again.. she's nervous about giving the the calcium wrong how much liquid should she mix the calcium with?

Just make a watery paste. Just get it in their mouths...spoon or syringe or dropper. Doesn't matter.

[JSTAZ]

She gave the little one her dose she wouldn't take it at first she was not really moving at all with her eyes opened then she and her husband got a little into her then zoe started grabbing for the eyedropper she came to a little more and then started growling like when she had her formula when she was a baby she now wants more should she give her pedialyte now or water?

[JSTAZ]

she started biting her own leg, and then megs husbands finger and now she's got his shirt in her mouth biting on it so he's gonna give her a little pedialyte with the dropper

[Nancy in New York]

Did they get the calcium into each of them. They can give them formula if they will take it.
Did you ask about the greens, how long they have had them? How about the carpet freshner and febreeze anything like that?

[4skwerlz]

She gave the little one her dose she wouldn't take it at first she was not really moving at all with her eyes opened then she and her husband got a little into her then zoe started grabbing for the eyedropper she came to a little more and then started growling like when she had her formula when she was a baby she now wants more should she give her pedialyte now or water?

More calcium paste! Keep pushing calcium!

[JSTAZ]

she's biting on everything and clamping down hard. what should they do?

[Nancy in New York]

Can they get the little one onto some heat? I don't like the sound of her just laying there...that is not good. They have to get the calcium into her...Does she still take formula?

[4skwerlz]

she's biting on everything and clamping down hard. what should they do?

Keep pushing calcium!!!!!

[JSTAZ]

They don't use carpet powder or febreze. They got the dandellion greens but wash everything before feeding

[Nancy in New York]

If they are panicked and frazzled and noisy, the squirrel will sense this. Perhaps take her into a quiet room and administer the calcium there...

[JSTAZ]

They are giving her more calcium... is the biting part normal..is there a limit with how much calcium she can have she already had 350mg

[Nancy in New York]

The first day, give a total of 600-800 mg of calcium, spread throughout the day/night to maintain blood calcium levels.
Does the squirrel usually let them handle her? I'm wondering about seizures? Anyone???

What kind of squirrels are these???

[4skwerlz]

They are giving her more calcium... is the biting part normal..is there a limit with how much calcium she can have she already had 350mg

Is she normally like that?

MBD causes neurological symptoms: seizures, freaking out, hypersensitivity, aggression, biting.

If she was prostrate, and is now acting abnormally, possibly seizing, then continue to give calcium until symptoms improve.


NORMALLY, we say 600-800 mg first day. But the amount you give the first day won't matter in such a critical case.

[Nancy in New York]

I just can't help but think we are missing something here...the ages of these two are so different and then for it to happen almost the exact same time...
Did they switch brands on any of the foods they usually feed them???

[PBluejay2]

A consideration for later: lead poisoning. The symptoms are similar. (Note: I've never seen dandelion greens sold in a grocery store).

Actually all parts of the plant are edible, but care must be taken to collect it in places where herbicides have not been used. One writer also reminds us of another danger for both wild and cultivated plants in areas of heavy traffic. “Horrifically poisonous lead compounds came streaming out of every exhaust pipe, and, being heavy, settled thickly on surrounding vegetation. Some plants, dandelions among them, fairly soak up lead, making them artificially toxic.” (Henderson, R., p. 16)

[Nancy in New York]

A consideration for later: lead poisoning. The symptoms are similar. (Note: I've never seen dandelion greens sold in a grocery store).

Actually all parts of the plant are edible, but care must be taken to collect it in places where herbicides have not been used. One writer also reminds us of another danger for both wild and cultivated plants in areas of heavy traffic. “Horrifically poisonous lead compounds came streaming out of every exhaust pipe, and, being heavy, settled thickly on surrounding vegetation. Some plants, dandelions among them, fairly soak up lead, making them artificially toxic.” (Henderson, R., p. 16)

The greens are sold in New York in the grocery store...a northeast thing I guess...
Thanks for the info...interesting.
When were the greens bought and how long have they been eating these?

How do you treat for lead poisoning?

[ShesASquirrelyGirl]

Is it just me? Why is everyone jumping on MBD here? They were VOMITING and both happening at the same time. If this is a poisoning or toxicity of some sort they need lots of fluids. Sorry but the chances of both of them getting mbd at the same exact time, not likely, and vomiting wouldn't be occuring. I would personally suggest lots and lots of fluids, Sub Q as well. Be carefull sometimes to much pedialyte for many days can cause more issues with the electrolytes. The system needs to be flushed out. Since they are both allowed out at night its more then likely something they got into. Even if its chewing on wood, some wood is toxic , some wood has lead paint, some wood as staining etc.
Is there a vet you can call to help...
Maybe a local rehabber who is willing to give fluids

[PBluejay2]

Signs
Gastrointestinal: Vomiting, abdominal pain, lack of appetite, and occasionally diarrhea or constipation.

Neurological: Seizures, ataxia, blindness, and behavior changes including head pressing, chomping of the jaw, vocalizing, running aimlessly, and circling.

Immediate Action
Seek veterinary attention. Depending on how exposure occurred, the induction of vomiting may be indicated.

Veterinary Care
General treatment: Radiographs may be taken to determine if the source of lead is still in the GI tract. If it is, surgery or endoscopy may be indicated to remove it.

Supportive treatment: The animal is monitored and treated for cerebral edema, anemia, and seizures. Antibiotics and IV fluids are also administered.

Specific treatment: The blood lead concentration levels will be measured before starting chelation therapy. The chelation therapy will aid in removing the lead from the body. Chelation agents include succimer (DMSA), dimercaprol (BAL), calcium EDTA, and penicillamine. Thiamine (vitamin B1) may also be given. The treatment and monitoring of lead levels will continue until they are normal.

Prognosis
Good, if chelation is started early. Guarded to poor, if symptoms such as seizures or cerebral edema are present.

[JSTAZ]

They are grey squirrels, they grew up on esbilac, they handle them both daily the little one is a little more wild less hands on then the big one the big one will let them do anything they want she also was alone when they found her a runt pushed out of the nest, the little one had a brother and sister that were in the city and they were all taken to a rehab specialist and they were all gonna be euthanized and she already pulled two of them out of the box and when she heard that she argued and then didn't tell them about the third one fear of that one being euthanized they wouldn't let her take the others somewhere else

[Nancy in New York]

Signs
Gastrointestinal: Vomiting, abdominal pain, lack of appetite, and occasionally diarrhea or constipation.

Neurological: Seizures, ataxia, blindness, and behavior changes including head pressing, chomping of the jaw, vocalizing, running aimlessly, and circling.

Immediate Action
Seek veterinary attention. Depending on how exposure occurred, the induction of vomiting may be indicated.

Veterinary Care
General treatment: Radiographs may be taken to determine if the source of lead is still in the GI tract. If it is, surgery or endoscopy may be indicated to remove it.

Supportive treatment: The animal is monitored and treated for cerebral edema, anemia, and seizures. Antibiotics and IV fluids are also administered.

Specific treatment: The blood lead concentration levels will be measured before starting chelation therapy. The chelation therapy will aid in removing the lead from the body. Chelation agents include succimer (DMSA), dimercaprol (BAL), calcium EDTA, and penicillamine. Thiamine (vitamin B1) may also be given. The treatment and monitoring of lead levels will continue until they are normal.

Prognosis
Good, if chelation is started early. Guarded to poor, if symptoms such as seizures or cerebral edema are present.

This sounds dead on to me...Lets look for a vet...

[4skwerlz]

Is it just me? Why is everyone jumping on MBD here? They were VOMITING and both happening at the same time. If this is a poisoning or toxicity of some sort they need lots of fluids. Sorry but the chances of both of them getting mbd at the same exact time, not likely, and vomiting wouldn't be occuring. I would persinally suggest lots and lots of fluids, Sub Q as well. Be carefull sometimes to much pedialyte for many days can cause more issues with the electrolytes. The system needs to be flushed out. Since they are both allowed out at night its more then likely something they got into. Even if its chewing on wood, some wood is toxic , some wood has lead paint, some wood as staining etc.
Is there a vet you can call to help...

We "jump" on MBD if certain symptoms are present because if it is MBD, the squirrel can be dead by the time you figure it out. The calcium won't hurt; will save their life if it is MBD.

While treating, you can go more into the history, explore other possibilities.

We are all well aware it could be other things.

It only takes an hour to find out; if the squirrel improves with calcium, then presumptive DX is MBD.

I agree vomiting is not typical, but MBD affects all organ systems, including digestion. So far, we've heard of no possible sources of poisons/toxins.

Would definitely throw out the dandelion greens, though presumably, grocery store greens would be safe.

[Pam]

Try this site to see if you can find a vet http://www.aemv.org/vetlist.cfm

[Nancy in New York]

OK...Do your friends have a vet? I think too they may need immediate attention if this is lead poisoning...
Mass is an illegal state, they have to be careful unless they know of someone that will see them

[4skwerlz]

Possible sources of lead? Any new toys? Or old toys for that matter. Some children's painted toys have been found to have lead content.

Another possibility: ceramic dishes (esp. from Mexico).

[PBluejay2]

Source
Lead-containing paint, linoleum, tile, batteries, plumbing materials, putty, lead foil, solder, golf balls, some roof coverings, lubricants, wine bottle cork foils, rug pads, acid (soft) drinking water from lead pipes or improperly glazed ceramic water bowls, lead weights, fishing sinkers, drapery weights, newsprint, dyes, insulation, lead-containing burnt lubricant oil, and lead shot.

[ShesASquirrelyGirl]

We "jump" on MBD if certain symptoms are present because if it is MBD, the squirrel can be dead by the time you figure it out. The calcium won't hurt; will save their life if it is MBD.

While treating, you can go more into the history, explore other possibilities.

We are all well aware it could be other things.

It only takes an hour to find out; if the squirrel improves with calcium, then presumptive DX is MBD.

I agree vomiting is not typical, but MBD affects all organ systems, including digestion. So far, we've heard of no possible sources of poisons/toxins.

Would definitely throw out the dandelion greens, though presumably, grocery store greens would be safe.
It only takes an hour to see improvement with many things, however it seems so many on here just jump to MBD for everything. They are let out everynight, and chew on things, thats not a possible source for poison toxins? Are you serious? And giving anyting from a store is possible for chemicals. Thats why you wash everything before giving. The vomiting and the fact that both squirrels at different ages got this at the same time. Its a bit obvious. shoving calcium down there throat won't hurt but not giving fluids and getting them flushed out in a timely matter also means life or death and I am sorry to be the one to say it but some people really need to start thinking a bit more clearly. I think even Island stated something about this and it was over seen.

these squirrels need to get to a rehabber or vet asap. The more time that goes by the more damage. Is there any rehabbers here from this persons area??

[PBluejay2]

Would definitely throw out the dandelion greens, though presumably, grocery store greens would be safe.

I don't think we should throw out anything. Certain amounts of lead are considered "acceptable" in foods for human consumption. How those amounts might affect a one-pound squirrel who eats his or her body weight a week may be different

[PBluejay2]

Studies have shown that half the amount of lead deemed acceptable by the United States government can inflict notable damage. In fact, the intellectual harm inflicted by lead is proportionately greater at levels below 10 micrograms per deciliter of blood, the level now considered acceptable by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

[Nancy in New York]

I think psychobird is from Mass.

[Nancy in New York]

JSTAZ are you still with us?

[ShesASquirrelyGirl]

Does anyone have her # or anyone in the MASS area have SUB Q around?

[Nancy in New York]

Does anyone have her # or anyone in the MASS area have SUB Q around?
Let me look...

All I could do was send her a PM and hope that she gets that...no phone number...sorry.

[Loopy Squirrel]

Had a friend whose squirrel chewed on a ferret snuggie w/ a zipper. Squirrel swollowed a piece of it. Lethargic, vomitted, wouldn't eat or drink. Took to vet, x-ray revealed parts of the zipper. Vet gave meds to help pass it through digestive tract and calcium EDTA. Luckily it passed without surgery. What about activated charcoal? It's never too late. Especially since we don't know what the toxin may have been. Push fluids.

[CritterMom]

OK, I just read through everything on here again. We have, if I am correct,
(1) 5 month old squirrel, usually a little wildish, who presented with symptoms FIRST, vomiting but willing to take pedialyte.

Several hours later, other squirrel, 2 year old, more tame, began the vomiting. Has had some pedialyte but will not take as willingly as younger squirrel.

Next day young squirrel is hyperactive, older squirrel is lethargic. Upon being given calcium, the younger squirrel resisted at first, then started grabbing for the syringe and trying desperately to eat.

What is the older squirrel doing?

Guys, I really think they ingested something. The dandelion greens are commonly sold up here - they are not unusual. If they ingested huge quantities I might be concerned about the vitamin A but they would have to eat a lot.

Has anyone tried giving either of these squirrels, especially the 5 month old one that is biting and grabbing the syringe, some formula? If they ingested something they MAY have purged it from their system and are just HUNGRY. This may be why the 5 month old is so frantic. The esbilac is a fluid and will contribute to flushing the system if they can take it.

[JSTAZ]

I'm still here just talking to Meg on phone sorry the little one is in her bed she is wiggling around very attentive but you can still see she is affected by whatever this is and the big one took the 350mg of calcium and then 1/2oz of pedialyte...the big one is not as bad as the little one no biting, or head jerking...very calm and after done drinking everthing she seems more with it...she even ate a little piece of apple first

[JSTAZ]

They are gonna keep pushing fluids and give them some more pedialyte should they keep going with calcium or have we ruled that out and think it's some sort of toxin

[4skwerlz]

I'm still here just talking to Meg on phone sorry the little one is in her bed she is wiggling around very attentive but you can still see she is affected by whatever this is and the big one took the 350mg of calcium and then 1/2oz of pedialyte...the big one is not as bad as the little one no biting, or head jerking...very calm and after done drinking everthing she seems more with it...she even ate a little piece of apple first

I'm so glad they are both a little better.....

When you say "head jerking" do you mean like seizures? And the biting, was it like uncontrollable biting, like when a person is having a fit?

It is not entirely clear what is wrong with these two, so a vet visit would be the best idea.

Any chance of that?

[4skwerlz]

They are gonna keep pushing fluids and give them some more pedialyte should they keep going with calcium or have we ruled that out and think it's some sort of toxin

Fluids are a good idea in any case, especially if it's a toxin.

If it's a toxin, you really need a vet, or will have to try to get some activated charcoal for poison, or some chelating agent if it's heavy metal. Calcium EDTA can be purchased at healthfood store. However, I have not seen a case yet, here on TSB, of lead poisoning. We have had a few cases of squirrels eating ant bait. Several cases of poisoning from eating toxic plants:

sago palm
oleander
yew

just to name three.

Could still be MBD. I think we need to take a deep breath and reassess. We have several rehabbers here who can help you do that.

[JSTAZ]

head jerking is like a seizure, and biting she would clamp down on blanket bite and bite and bite they each had 350-400mg of calcium should they just push pedialyte now and give more calcium in a couple hours?

[CritterMom]

Has the little one stopped the biting and head jerking or is it decreasing in severity?

[JSTAZ]

calcium EDTA will help if it's some kind of poisoning or just if it's lead and will it be harmful to them if it's not?

[JSTAZ]

She is in a small carrier right now and is not doing any head jerking or biting but they are gonna try to give her some pedialyte in a few minutes.

[4skwerlz]

calcium EDTA will help if it's some kind of poisoning or just if it's lead and will it be harmful to them if it's not?

It is for heavy metal poisoning. Not sure how risky it is.

[Loopy Squirrel]

Calcium EDTA would only be indicated for a heavy metal poisoning.

[4skwerlz]

She is in a small carrier right now and is not doing any head jerking or biting but they are gonna try to give her some pedialyte in a few minutes.

So, the 64 thousand dollar question:

Has the administration of calcium seemed to help both squirrels?

Are there still any symptoms of seizure-like activity, hind-end weakness, lack of coordination?

What symptoms, if any, remain?

What improvements do you see right now?

[Jackie in Tampa]

not gonna get involved...but has eggplant been given?
good luck, fingers crossed for these two:grouphug

[JSTAZ]

I will update you soon as I know the answers...waiting on Meg

[ShesASquirrelyGirl]

I pmed you, BTW Activated Charcoal won't help much if its already absorbed into the system from last night but its worth a try if you can get some. Right now if it is a toxin/poisoning the only thing to do is constant fluids. This is the only way we have saved squirrels in the past from poisoning from topicals and ingested poisons or try hard to get to a vet!

[Loopy Squirrel]

Any kind of branches. leaves, or outdoor stuff in their cages? One of my fox squirrels got really sick last year from eating a piece of a outside wild fern that my son brought in to decorate his snake's cage.

[JSTAZ]

I was just told the smaller one ZOE is dead. They said her body is completely stiff... They have been trying to find a vet near them but nobody would help...that's why I am on the computer doing this for them...I don't know what to tell them

[CritterMom]

I am so sorry. This one was a lot more affected than the other one was. How is the older squirrel doing?

[JSTAZ]

I guess she took a lot more fluid and now she is just wanting to stay in her bed....should they make her get up and make her take more fluids?

[PBluejay2]

I'm terribly sorry. Many toxins, including lead (if that's a possiblility), are eliminated through both feces and urine. I'd keep giving her as much fluids as she will take to flush her system.

[CritterMom]

Do we think that they could start alternating fluids and perhaps a diluted formula now, to see if it will stay down and get some nutrients into her. She is pretty empty by now.

Please ask your friend to keep her on heat - very important. Wake her, give her some fluids, then back on the heat for a while to snooze, then maybe a dilute formula feeding, then back on heat, and please keep us up to date on what she is doing, any changes, etc.

These little ones ingested something they shouldn't have. If we can pull the older baby through, the room she plays in needs to be gone over with a fine toothed comb before she is allowed to return. They ate something bad, the little one probably got more and being younger may have had less ability to fight it off, too. I just hope the older squirrel can hang on.

[JSTAZ]

...I have to go get my son from school I should be back at around 6pm(est) I will talk to Meg when I get back and let you know how her oldest squirrel, Ava is doing.

[4skwerlz]

I'm so very sorry. Zoe sounded very critical, and your friends did what they could.

Prayers for Ava.

[Nancy in New York]

How very sad that this little one died...I'm so sorry...:Love_Icon

[JSTAZ]

oh before i go she just told me that Ava is pooping a lot and they are gonna try to give her a formula pedialyte mixture

[Nancy in New York]

Tell them to push the fluids...maybe round the clock...

[CritterMom]

oh before i go she just told me that Ava is pooping a lot and they are gonna try to give her a formula pedialyte mixture


Do NOT mix pedialyte and formula. Give it SEPARATELY!

[4skwerlz]

Do NOT mix pedialyte and formula. Give it SEPARATELY!

That's right.

And don't give Pedialyte for more than 24 hours without asking a rehabber. It is very high in sodium and continued use can actually make dehydration worse.

[pappy1264]

JSTAZ I am sending you a pm with my vets info, she is not in tonight, unfortunately, but if you need her, she will be in tomorrow and will see you and help. I am in MA, as well.

[Nancy in New York]

In my haste to answer her question, I took the question to mean that they were going to alternate between formula and Pedialyte...after rereading...I see where I was wrong with the "mixture" Good catch...even I know that you don't dilute formula with pedialyte.

[JSTAZ]

I'm back home and talking to Meg I told her not to mix anymore pedialyte with formula...Ava took formula and slept for an hour and then came out of her bed on her own and peed she is now back in bed...should they let her relax in bed for a little bit...they are thinking that they'll wake her in a half hour and give her more formula...does that sound right? Should they feed her through the night? If so how often?

[CritterMom]

Boy, I sure hope this means that she has/is flushing whatever is in her system out. I have tried so hard to follow this timeline. I believe she has been getting pedialyte for quite some time now. If that is correct, let's substitute, instead of pedialyte, some plain water with a little sugar or karo syrup in it for taste and energy. Alternate with the formula, providing it is staying down. How much formula and how much pedialyte is she taking each time? I would do it every couple hours, and I would keep it up through the night. If they are diluting the formula, I would slowly get it up to the normal strength - GRADUALLY and only if she isn't showing signs of stomach issues.

I keep saying it so I apologize, but please, PLEASE make sure they have her on heat, or near a good, constant heat source. She needs to use every bit of her energy to throw this off and get better, not to keep warm. It is SO IMPORTANT - one of the most important parts of supportive care.

[ShesASquirrelyGirl]

OK I am a bit confused, in your pm it says your friend is from Vermont. Are the squirrels in MASS or VERMONT. I am not trying to be mean but this info needs to be clear. Perhaps we have someone in Vermont where they are who could have helped.
Keeping going with fluids around the clock. Alternate every hour not every few hours. The SQ needs to be constantly flushed. Even if its less given every hour, it needs to be constant.
I am sorry about the little one. After this since she is keeping pet squirrels she needs to locate a vet even if 2 hours away that is willing to work with her or treat and not report it when needed.
I understand people wanting non releasables and pets but this is exactly why they shouldn't be unless you have at least one connection to help.

[JSTAZ]

normal strength of formula is 50/50 water to powder right? Also, they have put an extra heater in her room in the house is that good? They say she seems to be less weak.

[CritterMom]

normal strength of formula is 50/50 water to powder right? Also, they have put an extra heater in her room in the house is that good? They say she seems to be less weak.


If it is Esbilac formula, and it likely is, it is 1 part powder to 2 parts water. They may want to go with 1 part powder to 3 parts water for the first few feedings, just to get more fluid in her and to make sure the formula doesn't make the vomiting return.

Go with the every hour schedule that Shesasquirrelygirl recommended - she has a lot more experience than I do. Less weak is good. The added heat is good, too.

[JSTAZ]

she's very sleepy and doesn't want to come out of her bed they are trying to give her some formula but she is normally sleepy at night. They will keep trying I guess.

[ShesASquirrelyGirl]

WHAT STATE ARE THE SQUIRRELS ACTUALLY IN??

[JSTAZ]

they got about 1 1/2 tsp in her and she just wants to go to bed now.

[CritterMom]

Let her get some sleep, poor thing. It will be a long night for everyone. She may be more agreeable to taking more after she gets some sleep. Poor baby.

[JSTAZ]

do you think they should let her sleep through the night or should they wake her and give her more fluids in two or three hours?

[CritterMom]

I would absolutely push fluids and formula alternately through the night. And I would do it as frequently as possible. Hourly has been recommended, and I would do it AT LEAST every two. Whatever is making her sick is going to be flushed from her body by way of urine and feces, and the fluids will force her to pee and poop a lot, hopefully. I think that by morning they should have a better idea of how she will deal with this. Hopefully they will see nothing but clear improvement, and this time tomorrow night, everyone will be sound asleep!

They will drop off to sleep almost immediately after being fed - your friends probably not so easily! I lose a night's sleep over the stupidest things; I always figure that when I wind up doing something like this it is in the service of good.

Really top notch supportive care can absolutely be the difference between success and failure.

[JSTAZ]

I have to get to bed I have to be at work for 4:30am my computer will be on til 9pm then I will shut down for the night Thanks to everybody for the help my friends Meg and Bryan really appreciate it...Later

[psychobird]

i'm so sorry i was gone all day and just got home and saw nancy's message, i'm so sorry we lost one.
this is so scary, not sure if there is anything i can do for the other one aside from sq her if you can bring her up, but i think that will add more stress to the situation for her and probably not a good idea.
i really have no idea what could be happening, poisoning makes sense, i also know alot of parrots used to get heavy metal poisoning from inferior cages, but i still don't think it would have hit them both at the same time, it makes sense that they got into something.
i have personally never had a squirrel with mbd, all the ones i have had in for rehab did fine and were released, so i always let the pro's on here handle that advice
btw i get dandellion greens all the time from the grocery store for squirrels and cottontails when i have them and even my pet birds get them.
in the future if anyone is trying to get a hold of me, my number on my web page in my signature
www.CAWildBirdRescue.org

[CritterMom]

Good luck to your friends. What an awful day they have had. Just continue the warm/quiet/fluids/food. Maybe tomorrow will be a better day. I will check again in the AM - like you, mine starts early, at 4.

[ShesASquirrelyGirl]

Psycho I will keep that info on hand if you don't mind. I now believe these squirrels are in Vermont not Mass but someone won't give an answer. Hopefully the older one pulls through.

[Momma Squirrel]

I have been watching from the sidelines and just wanted to check in this morning and see how the night went??

Hope we have some good news this morning :grouphug

[CritterMom]

I PM'd her last night and gave her my home and work phone numbers to pass on to the actual owners of the squirrel, and I know she gave it to them - have heard nothing, though - I hope that is good news...

[Momma Squirrel]

Thanks CritterMom, I also hope it went good. :grouphug

[crazysquirrels]

I have been watching from the sidelines and just wanted to check in this morning and see how the night went??

Hope we have some good news this morning :grouphug
Me too. This is not going well. I hope today is a better one. Jackie sends her best.

[CritterMom]

Well, JSTAZ, the person who was doing the posting and acting as a conduit to the board, said she had to be at work at 4:30 this morning, which means she probably won't be on until later in the day. I just hope that the squirrel owners didn't call because all was well, not because they felt weird about doing it...

[Nancy in New York]

Well, JSTAZ, the person who was doing the posting and acting as a conduit to the board, said she had to be at work at 4:30 this morning, which means she probably won't be on until later in the day. I just hope that the squirrel owners didn't call because all was well, not because they felt weird about doing it...
Do the "owners" of the squirrel have your phone number too do you know?

[CritterMom]

Yes - she told me in a PM last night that she had given them both my home and work numbers in case they needed them.

[Nancy in New York]

Yes - she told me in a PM last night that she had given them both my home and work numbers in case they needed them.
Thank you...

[JSTAZ]

Just got home from work...UPDATE...They got up every two hours last night and this is the schedule they said they did:
10:15pm 1tsp sugar water, fed while in bed
12:15am 2tsp formula and 1 tsp sugar water, fed while in bed
2:15am wouldn't eat was feisty, stayed in bed
4:15am 2 tsp formula, fed in bed
6:15am 2tsp formula, fed in bed
after feeding at 6:15am Ava walked around in cage, no potty, tried to give her apple-no, layed down a couple times, still not walking 100%, she went back to bed
8:30am 2tsp formula, still feeding in her bed won't get out, only at 6:15am
10:30am 2tsp formula, fed in bed, stayed in bed
She is in bed right now and sleeping...they wanted you to know that unlike Zoe...Ava has actually been in bed eyes closed sleeping...while When Zoe was going through this she stayed in bed awake

They want to know if they should just continue what they are doing?

[ShesASquirrelyGirl]

The fluids need to be given to keep flushing out the system and I am afraid 2 teaspoons every 2 hours is not nearly enough. As I asked before please tell us which state the squirrel is actually in so we can try to get you more help or perhaps a local rehabber can take over for a while. No one can help if you don't answer.

[JSTAZ]

They are from Southern VT I thought I already said that...I am from Mass..Should they try more pedialyte, sugar water or formula...she likes the formula more then the others...and also should they make her get out of bed maybe try holding her and wrapping her in a blanket... how much liquid should she be getting every two hours...expose her to sun or keep room dark...what? I know the easiest thing would be find a vet but I have to do my part to try to help them any way I can...and this is it.

[JSTAZ]

Meg just let me know that Ava at 2:30pm took 2tsp of formula and 3 tsp of sugar water...that seems a lot better they said she is still acting tired but seems more aware and was actually lapping up the liquids

[Jackie in Tampa]

They are from Southern VT I thought I already said that...I am from Mass..Should they try more pedialyte, sugar water or formula...she likes the formula more then the others...and also should they make her get out of bed maybe try holding her and wrapping her in a blanket... how much liquid should she be getting every two hours...expose her to sun or keep room dark...what? I know the easiest thing would be find a vet but I have to do my part to try to help them any way I can...and this is it.
:bowdown you are doing great! Thank you for helping the sqs and your friends!
As long as the sq is on heat and responding, without any seizures, vomitting or diareha, she maybe holding her own.
I am not aware of all the details, but thinking calm and quiet until she is 'outta the woods'...sunshine is for the future maintance, which is always a good idea on a daily basis.For today , I would keep giving as much of any fluid she will take...oj, apple juice anything! Formul;a is great...they may even want to dilute it down and offer her as much as she will take!
I am thinkimng that sleep is good at this point, but I would keep cking her and listening for any seizure activity.
Good luck and thanks for being the middle man! good job friend:bowdown

[PBluejay2]

They are from Southern VT I thought I already said that...I am from Mass..Should they try more pedialyte, sugar water or formula...she likes the formula more then the others...and also should they make her get out of bed maybe try holding her and wrapping her in a blanket... how much liquid should she be getting every two hours...expose her to sun or keep room dark...what? I know the easiest thing would be find a vet but I have to do my part to try to help them any way I can...and this is it.

I suggest you don't give her any more Pedialyte but stick with water, sugar water, and formula, also offering her some solid food. I don't know how much UV rays she'd get from the sun at this time of year at your latitude, so I'd go buy a good quality full spectrum light bulb (not heat producing) at a pet store. Repti-Sun 10 and Repti-Glo 10 are good bulbs that can be bought from PetSmart. From the sounds of things, she seems to be doing better! :thumbsup

[CritterMom]

OK, yes, that is better; they want to think volume, and I would go with whatever Ava likes best. Stay with the sugar water (not super sweet, just enough to make it interesting for her), not pedialyte - she hasn't vomited again, right? The pedialyte causes problems if given for a long period.

Warm/dark/quiet is always best, but if Ava wants to sit with them, curled up in their lap, sleeping, that is fine, too. A lot of times little animals want extra comfort when they don't feel good. That she was voluntarily eating is positive, too.

[JSTAZ]

They are worried cause they haven't seen her pooping or peeing in quite a while...will it take a lot more fluids to get her to go?

[PBluejay2]

They are worried cause they haven't seen her pooping or peeing in quite a while...will it take a lot more fluids to get her to go?

She's been on nothing but fluids for a while, correct? If so, she might not have a lot to poop. However, she should be peeing. Just as a precaution, ask your friends to feel around her lower stomach area. It should feel rather soft when pressed or massaged, not firm--just want to make sure her bladder isn't full and she is having trouble relieving herself.

[JSTAZ]

They said it just feels like her normal belly...a little bit of her fur on her lower belly has liquid possibly on it maybe a little spilled formula or a little urination..stuck to her a little...I'm having them check she also seems to want to be rubbed it makes her relax and close her eyes..she also has started sticking her head out of her bed resting on opening like normal

[PBluejay2]

They said it just feels like her normal belly...a little bit of her fur on her lower belly has liquid possibly on it maybe a little spilled formula or a little urination..stuck to her a little...I'm having them check she also seems to want to be rubbed it makes her relax and close her eyes..she also has started sticking her head out of her bed resting on opening like normal


These are good signs!

[JSTAZ]

I gotta go to work for an hour or two I'll keep everybody posted on how Ava is doing when I get home...Thanks everybody for the help

[CritterMom]

Absolutely! Tell them to love up on that little baby! That will actually help - very comforting. And offer solid food - something yummy to spark her interest. If they have any almonds or a piece of walnut or pecan might be yummy after being so sick.

[ShesASquirrelyGirl]

So glad she is doing better. Sounds like she is stabilizing but not out of the woods yet since you don't know what it was she got to. She should be urinating a lot unless not enough fluids have been given. I'd keep giving fluids as much as she will take every time she will take it.

[JSTAZ]

Just got home...Meg said her husband went into Ava's bedroom and Ava was just getting back into bed he felt around and said....he never thought it would feel so great to stick his hand in a big warm puddle of pee. How great she's urinating...!!!

[4skwerlz]

Wonderful news! So glad!

[PBluejay2]

Just got home...Meg said her husband went into Ava's bedroom and Ava was just getting back into bed he felt around and said....he never thought it would feel so great to stick his hand in a big warm puddle of pee. How great she's urinating...!!!


Great news! :wahoo

[CritterMom]

Well, I don't think she's completely out of the woods yet, but this all sounds so positive (phew!).

Now. I would bet my next paycheck - and I wouldn't do that lightly - that those two ingested something that poisoned them. The little 5 month old baby probably ate more of it - his symptoms were ALWAYS much more severe than Ava's. Your friends are going to have to really think outside the box on this, because if they can't figure it out, they can't safely let Ava out to play without risking a repeat of this awful episode.

I would look at any plants in the house first. Most houseplants are tropical; many tropical plants are either out and out poisonous or have agents in them that will make them very sick. It seems your friends either don't have a computer or don't have computer access. I am going to attach a link to a website that is the parrot owners go to list of safe/poisonous plants and household items for parrots, which are very sensitive. I would treat anything on the parrot bad list as bad for a squirrel out of an abundance of caution (except avocado!!). Perhaps you can print out the lists and get them to your friends.

http://www.exoticbird.com/gillian/

Other things: Ant traps. Mothballs. A cleaner or household chemical of some kind. PBluejay mentioned lead, in conjunction with the dandelion greens. I tend to think the source is wrong (though I would not give them dandelion greens more than once a month because they have HUGE amounts of Vitamin A, which does not flush easily from the body and can cause problems), but lead is found in all kinds of odd places. If they are in Southern VT, are they in an old home? Like an old home with lead based paint that perhaps recently got chewed? Lead is in the old pulls on venetian blinds. If those squirrels spent their time in one room, they need to really go over it with their detective hats on...

[PBluejay2]

Well, I don't think she's completely out of the woods yet, but this all sounds so positive (phew!).

Now. I would bet my next paycheck - and I wouldn't do that lightly - that those two ingested something that poisoned them. The little 5 month old baby probably ate more of it - his symptoms were ALWAYS much more severe than Ava's. Your friends are going to have to really think outside the box on this, because if they can't figure it out, they can't safely let Ava out to play without risking a repeat of this awful episode.

I would look at any plants in the house first. Most houseplants are tropical; many tropical plants are either out and out poisonous or have agents in them that will make them very sick. It seems your friends either don't have a computer or don't have computer access. I am going to attach a link to a website that is the parrot owners go to list of safe/poisonous plants and household items for parrots, which are very sensitive. I would treat anything on the parrot bad list as bad for a squirrel out of an abundance of caution (except avocado!!). Perhaps you can print out the lists and get them to your friends.

http://www.exoticbird.com/gillian/

Other things: Ant traps. Mothballs. A cleaner or household chemical of some kind. PBluejay mentioned lead, in conjunction with the dandelion greens. I tend to think the source is wrong (though I would not give them dandelion greens more than once a month because they have HUGE amounts of Vitamin A, which does not flush easily from the body and can cause problems), but lead is found in all kinds of odd places. If they are in Southern VT, are they in an old home? Like an old home with lead based paint that perhaps recently got chewed? Lead is in the old pulls on venetian blinds. If those squirrels spent their time in one room, they need to really go over it with their detective hats on...

:goodpost . . . except, if you will go online you will find scientific studies showing that some plants act as filters, removing by absorption certain toxins/pollutants, and dandelions in particular absorb lead and remove it from the surrounding soil:

"The research was carried out in order to determine the influence of common dandelion rhizosphere on heavy metal content and enzymatic activity of soils in 6 parks situated in the city center of the Upper Silesia and towns of the eastern part of Poland. The research covered soils of the common dandelion rhizosphere and non-rizosphere zones. In the experiment a significant differentiation of heavy metal (Zn, Pb, Cd, Cu) content and enzymes examined (dehydrogenases, phosphateses, ureases and proteases) chemical activity both, between localizations studied as well as inside them was stated. Soils originated from the Upper Silesia (Zabrze, Bytom, Miasteczko Ślaskie) were characterized by the highest heavy metal content and at the same time the lowest enzymatic activity. Independently from the localization, in the soils of rhizosphere zone heavy metal content was significantly lower and the enzymatic activity of all enzymes studied – several times higher than marked in the non-rhizosphere zone. The observed stimulation of enzymatic activity of soils coming from rhizosphere zones was connected with the increase of C organic and total N content. The results obtained indicate the common dandelion rhizosphere zone is a natural filter cleaning the soil environment of the pollution coming from urban areas.

[Loopy Squirrel]

This may sound completely out there but since these people are up north, what type of heating system do they have? Animals are much more sensitive to toxic fumes. Do they have a carbon monoxide tester? Could the squirrels have been reacting to this?

[PBluejay2]

This may sound completely out there but since these people are up north, what type of heating system do they have? Animals are much more sensitive to toxic fumes. Do they have a carbon monoxide tester? Could the squirrels have been reacting to this?

I haven't read that carbon monoxide poisoning causes seizures. Headache, dizziness, sometimes vomiting, fatigue are the primary symptoms (I think).

[CritterMom]

This may sound completely out there but since these people are up north, what type of heating system do they have? Animals are much more sensitive to toxic fumes. Do they have a carbon monoxide tester? Could the squirrels have been reacting to this?


I would think that she wouldn't be getting better, unless the carbon monoxide was a one time thing - a poorly vented generator used during a power outage or something like that. Something low grade like a very minor leak in the furnace exhaust or something like that would still be happening (boy howdy, would it - brrrrrr!). Anyone who has anything that relies on combustion in their house who doesn;t have one needs a rap upside the head!

[Loopy Squirrel]

Two years ago my son lost a very good friend and his brother to carbon monoxide poisoning from a car exhaust left running in the family's garage. When the mother awoke to find her children she was extremely incoherent and delirious. Both boys had vomit around their mouths. They had vomitted while unconscious. How do we really know that this person was decribing an actual seizure? Has anyone asked them if they were using a fire place or what kind of heat they have? Some people use many different things to heat their homes. Do you know that birds can react and die from using air fresheners and teflon pans?

[Loopy Squirrel]

I thought about something else too, do the people remember what color the vomit was or if there was anything detectable in it?

[CritterMom]

Two years ago my son lost a very good friend and his brother to carbon monoxide poisoning from a car exhaust left running in the families garage. When the mother awoke to find her children she was extremely incoherent and delirious. Both boys has vomit around their mouths. They had vomitted while unconscious. How do we really know that this person was decribing an actual seizure? Has anyone asked them if they were using a fire place or what kind of heat they hav? Some people use many different things to heat their homes. Do you know that birds can react and die from using air fresheners and tephlon (spg??) pans?


Boy do I. I have been on the rampage against PTFE (non-stick coating), parrafin-based candles, ANYTHING that makes your house smell different that doesn't involve an apple pie baking in the oven and suddenly I like where this is going. First, let's take dandelion greens off the squirrel food list. That is the reason I don't eat watercress, too.

ASK YOUR FRIENDS IF THEY BURNED/OVERHEATED A POT, PAN, OR COOKING UTENSIL WITH NONSTICK COATING. That would be an interesting thing to know. It is absolutely deadly to birds, and gives humans something they euphamistically refer to as "Teflon Flu." Yet it would be so easy to forget/discount it when faced with an emergency after the fact. My God, Loopy, I'm the parrot lady and didn't think of that (face slap).

More, please.

[JSTAZ]

They have baseboard heaters with water in the pipes and right around new years they put an oil filled electric heater in the room for extra heat...the house was built long ago but her room is an edition that was built in the early 90's and the walls have latex paint...would the added heater be an issue cause they have it on in her room for extra heat right now? oh, and the only plants they have are spider plants and they are no where near the babies room.

[JSTAZ]

They didn't actually see Ava vomit it was just kinda on and around her mouth. Zoe had light brown vomit and then clear vomit

[Loopy Squirrel]

I doubt the oil heater would do it because they are sealed and sealed well.
As for the vomit what had they fed the squirrels prior to them vomitting. Usually the last thing eaten is the first to come up. Did the baby vomit only once?

[CritterMom]

The oil filled electrics are really considered to be safe - no super hot elements or anything, Spider plants aren't only safe, they are excellent air filters. What about the nonstick cookware question?

[JSTAZ]

Meg's husband gave each of them an acorn at night and then the next morning is when Meg noticed that Zoe vomitted everywhere in her cage, They noticed Ava had stuff on her face that looked like she vomitted at night after Zoe.

[PBluejay2]

Meg's husband gave each of them an acorn at night and then the next morning is when Meg noticed that Zoe vomitted everywhere in her cage, They noticed Ava had stuff on her face that looked like she vomitted at night after Zoe.

It's late for acorns in your area--where did they get them, and if they collected them themselves, were they frozen? Acorns can mold quickly.

[JSTAZ]

They cook with cast iron, teflon and aluminum. And have a gas stove.

[4skwerlz]

Are they sure they were ACORNS?

[PBluejay2]

A quote: Acorns can serve as a host for the aflatoxin mold, as can peanuts, rye and other grains; most frequently, aflatoxin poisoning comes from the mold aspergillus flavus.

[Nancy in New York]

It's late for acorns in your area--where did they get them, and if they collected them themselves, were they frozen? Acorns can mold quickly.

Considering the issues that they both had I would say aflatoxin is the most likely culprit. It normally is found in nuts and seeds.

[JSTAZ]

The acorns were picked in the fall and kept in an open bucket in the house

[PBluejay2]

Aflatoxicosis
Signs and Symptoms A broad range of symptoms can be found depending upon dosage, including, vomiting, abdominal pain hemorrhage, pulmonary edema, acute liver damage including fatty change, loss of function of the digestive tract, convulsions, cerebral edema and death.

[PBluejay2]

Aflatoxicosis
Signs and Symptoms A broad range of symptoms can be found depending upon dosage, including, vomiting, abdominal pain hemorrhage, pulmonary edema, acute liver damage including fatty change, loss of function of the digestive tract, convulsions, cerebral edema and death.

Tell them DO NOT give her any more of the acorns!

[CritterMom]

They cook with cast iron, teflon and aluminum. And have a gas stove.


BEG them to dump the teflon. Honestly, the stuff is just swful. The people who make it for Dow Chemical have terrible health problems, and anything strong enough to make a human sick when it outgasses could easily kill a little squirrel. Use the cast iron, aluminum and stainless and dump the teflon. Tell Meg that scrubbing pots with stell wool will give her great arms:D

I assume they have a CO detector?

[JSTAZ]

They said Ava only took about 1tsp of fluid at 6:30pm and wanted to go back to sleep...they let her sleep but now are worried about her 8:30pm feeding they are trying to get 5tsp into her each feeding which she did take 5tsp at around 2:30pm and at 4:00pm 1tsp...should they offer any solid foods? Meg threw out all food for them and bought new she has brocolli, watermelon, and walnut pieces.

[CritterMom]

Yes, absolutely, offer solid foods. She is probably getting really tired and cranky with being stuffed with fluids, poor baby. Sometimes a walnut can make life worth living!

[PBluejay2]

They said Ava only took about 1tsp of fluid at 6:30pm and wanted to go back to sleep...they let her sleep but now are worried about her 8:30pm feeding they are trying to get 5tsp into her each feeding which she did take 5tsp at around 2:30pm and at 4:00pm 1tsp...should they offer any solid foods? Meg threw out all food for them and bought new she has brocolli, watermelon, and walnut pieces.

Did she throw out the acorns? The brown vomit could likely be the acorn and the clear was simply bile. Acorns need to be frozen if harvested and kept for feeding. An open bucket won't keep them (voice of experience here), especially if at all moist when gathered. While the ones on top may stay dry enough to prevent fungi build up, the others will develop fungi quickly.

[4skwerlz]

Did she throw out the acorns? The brown vomit could likely be the acorn and the clear was simply bile. Acorns need to be frozen if harvested and kept for feeding. An open bucket won't keep them (voice of experience here), especially if at all moist when gathered. While the ones on top may stay dry enough to prevent fungi build up, the others will develop fungi quickly.

Temps of greater than 70 degrees F are optimum for mold growth. Nuts/seeds/acorns should always be refrigerated or frozen if stored.

[PBluejay2]

Nuts/seeds/acorns should always be refrigerated or frozen if stored.

I think I said that, but thanks for confirming.

[JSTAZ]

yes they threw out the acorns, they just gave her a piece of watermelon and she perked right up and ate it they also gave her a little piece of walnut which she ate...she does not want formula, sugar water or plain water but she is being active...which she hasn't been this active since before she was sick...they put her back in her cage and she peed and was climbing all over... they put her bed back in the cage and she got in and is cleaning herself and possibly will be going to bed...they put a dish with a little watermelon, apple and a couple small pieces of walnut in her cage and a fresh bottle with sugar water...does that all sound good? Should they keep waking her tonight and trying to give her fluids or let her sleep through the night?

[psychobird]

i rinse then roast my acorns at 260 for 2 hrs, then i put them in paper bags and put them on top of my old cast iron radiators for at least a month to finish drying them

[PBluejay2]

yes they threw out the acorns, they just gave her a piece of watermelon and she perked right up and ate it they also gave her a little piece of walnut which she ate...she does not want formula, sugar water or plain water but she is being active...which she hasn't been this active since before she was sick...they put her back in her cage and she peed and was climbing all over... they put her bed back in the cage and she got in and is cleaning herself and possibly will be going to bed...they put a dish with a little watermelon, apple and a couple small pieces of walnut in her cage and a fresh bottle with sugar water...does that all sound good? Should they keep waking her tonight and trying to give her fluids or let her sleep through the night?

Everything sounds good to me! It sounds like she feels much better! It wouldn't hurt anything to give her more fluids at least once during the night to keep her flushed and hydrated. But the watermelon is a good source of moisture also.

[pappy1264]

Ok, sorry to hijack here, but I have acorns I gathered this year. I put them out on a sheet to 'dry' and have them in a container, but have never put them in the fridge or freezer (although I ordered some online and do have them in the freezer). Luna and Rocket love them....do I have to throw them all away (the ones I have out in the container?) As I said, I put them out on cookie sheets when we first got them, to make sure they dried to prevent mold and they are inside and are not wet at all.

[psychobird]

if you feel like you need to toss them, come on down i can give you a nice big baggie of them.
another rehabber i know had a mold problem with hers even after roasting and she built drying racks in the basement.

[CritterMom]

Everything sounds good to me! It sounds like she feels much better! It wouldn't hurt anything to give her more fluids at least once during the night to keep her flushed and hydrated. But the watermelon is a good source of moisture also.
Exactly what I was about to post. Perhaps a midnight feeding, and let the girl (and parents) sleep otherwise.

Please ask them to be careful and not leave the sugar water in the cage for more than a few hours at a time - the sugar makes it a good medium for bacteria growth, I would use plain water. Also, keep the heater on in her room - still nice and toasty.

[JSTAZ]

Thank you all so much for the support...I told them to try to give her a midnight feeding and get some sleep...this has been quite the journey for me the past two days...I can't wait to drive up and see Ava this weekend...I'll put an update in the morning...:thankyou

[PBluejay2]

Thank you all so much for the support...I told them to try to give her a midnight feeding and get some sleep...this has been quite the journey for me the past two days...I can't wait to drive up and see Ava this weekend...I'll put an update in the morning...:thankyou

You've done a wonderful job of helping this squirrel. It is we who thank YOU!!!

[JSTAZ]

***New update**** Ava didn't take any fluids at midnight feeding but got up on her own this morning gave a big yawn ate some watermelon and apple peed and took a drink of water from her bottle and now just wants to play....she seems to be back to herself they are both just keeping a real good eye on her for the next couple days

[PBluejay2]

***New update**** Ava didn't take any fluids at midnight feeding but got up on her own this morning gave a big yawn ate some watermelon and apple peed and took a drink of water from her bottle and now just wants to play....she seems to be back to herself they are both just keeping a real good eye on her for the next couple days

This is beautiful news!

[psychobird]

This is beautiful news!
i agree, awesome news!

[JSTAZ]

Meg and Bryan wanted to let everybody know that they are so thankful for all the help...and sorry that they didn't contact anybody personally. They have had very bad luck in the past when they have told vets and rehabbers that they are caring for squirrels...they have been told that people will come and take them away...they can't have children of their own so Ava and Zoe were their children they are very protective...so they have big trust issues when it comes to their babies...they now only have Ava and believe that they are gonna focus on just having her for many years to come...they do have a computer (no internet) and I believe they will be getting internet soon because they want to be able to have this connection and get help on their own if anything comes up again. Thank you all again...:Love_Icon

[CritterMom]

This is WONDERFUL!!!

I think that PBluejay2 has probably come up with the problem - aflatoxin in the acorns - but in an abundance of caution, I sure do hope your friends will crawl all over every square inch of that room - under the bed, behind things - everywhere, before letting her play in there again. I am a belt AND suspenders kind of girl!

And please extend our condolences for the baby they lost. After the horrible situation they went through with his little siblings this must be devastating for them. Ava may be affected by this, too - they were buds, weren't they? Extra lovins and maybe a few new stuffed animal pals might be in order for her.

May I suggest that your friends use this as a learning experience, and find a way to get medical assistance for Ava should they ever need it again. Getting these things in place when it is NOT an emergency is a much better idea than trying in the middel of the storm. This may mean that they need to connect with a local rehabber who will assist them without trying to take their squirrel away. If you can give us more to go on than southern VT for a location, there are a lot of people on here with a lot of resources and lists who might be able to help with this.
:jump :jump :jump :jump :jump :jump :jump :jump

[Adoresquirrels]

Is it just me? Why is everyone jumping on MBD here? They were VOMITING and both happening at the same time. If this is a poisoning or toxicity of some sort they need lots of fluids. Sorry but the chances of both of them getting mbd at the same exact time, not likely, and vomiting wouldn't be occuring. I would personally suggest lots and lots of fluids, Sub Q as well. Be carefull sometimes to much pedialyte for many days can cause more issues with the electrolytes. The system needs to be flushed out. Since they are both allowed out at night its more then likely something they got into. Even if its chewing on wood, some wood is toxic , some wood has lead paint, some wood as staining etc.
Is there a vet you can call to help...
Maybe a local rehabber who is willing to give fluids

It's not just you, everyone's thought here seems to be MBD no matter what. Do some reading & you'll find out.

[CritterMom]

It's not just you, everyone's thought here seems to be MBD no matter what. Do some reading & you'll find out.

You are partially right and partially wrong, and perhaps a thread devoted to triage methods would be helpful. It is called "group think" and is easy to fall into when doing something like this. It is exacerbated by the fact that a HUGE number of the sick squirrels who's humans seek help here DO have MBD. Why don't you start a separate thread where everyone can get on, throw out suggestions, come up with some care standards, and when it is done, consolidate it and turn it into a sticky.

[Adoresquirrels]

You are partially right and partially wrong, and perhaps a thread devoted to triage methods would be helpful. It is called "group think" and is easy to fall into when doing something like this. It is exacerbated by the fact that a HUGE number of the sick squirrels who's humans seek help here DO have MBD. Why don't you start a separate thread where everyone can get on, throw out suggestions, come up with some care standards, and when it is done, consolidate it and turn it into a sticky.


Sounds like a good idea.

[JSTAZ]

Hey Meg is from Southern VT but they are actually moving to Northern CT in March/April So maybe they can find a rehabber there that they can trust...

[FranP]

I have been following this conversation and have been riveted towards the outcome! I want to send my condolences for Zoe, it always hits your heart harder when its a baby. This group of people are simply more awesome than words can say! I definately learned ALOT throughout all of the threads. You really have to be a squirrel lover to appreciate all of this!!!! I am in the process of becoming a licenced rehabber, now I am definately more driven to help any way I can! I work for a veterinary diagnostic lab and can remember a few years ago when the Diamond dog food aflatoxin out break hit. We got quite a few dogs and cats in for necropsies confirming their fates. It was so hard seeing their owners so emotionally upset. It's great to see a life was saved from it!!!

[cheekyarentyou]

Are these new symptoms? It seems odd for a sudden onset to be so severe and at different ages. Ca deficiency happens over time. Heavy metal poisoning can happen in a short time. Things like key rings and costume jewelry often have nickel, lead or cadmium (180 million recalled from China -see US embassy (in china) website for details). You can't tell what's toxic so assume that if it doesn't rust and it's an unknown metal your critter/child should NOT have it in their mouth!!
Another common toxin is non-stick pans, squirrels are safer than birds (killed easily with Teflon fumes) but they are still tiny. Even people get flu-like symptoms from Teflon and many don't even know it.

[Mrs Skul]

:sad CM918 RIP baby ZOECM918
JSTAZ would you please pass this on To Ava's Parents. I am so sorry for their loss. :grouphug I know Zoe and Ava are their Life,Love,and Children. You will see a lot of Squirrel owned Parent are afraid of the same thing. Make sure you keep in contact with the few people who have helped in this situation. By E-Mail or phone. You can even update us hear at TSB, how Ava is getting along. :bowdown JSTAZ You are an ANGEL for all you have done for your friends. Mainly the help of saving Ava life. :grouphug Thank you from the bottom of my hart.:thankyou
CM916 :Squirrel :Flag :bowdown :grouphug :Love_Icon :squirrel1

[Mrs Skul]

:squirrel1 :wave :Squirrel
Way to work together TSB members.:bowdown Thank you so much 4Skwerlz, PsychoticFeather, Nancy, IR,PBJ, CrirrerMom and ShesaSquirrelyGirl. Way to work to gather. With all the knowledge of this whole board, Ava is OK today.
:Flag TSB Rehabbers You ROCK!!!:thankyou I hope I didn't for get ant one.:thankyou ALL!!!

[Penelope's Mom]

When the squirrel people get here they will want to know everything that you are feeding them.

Now that the crisis is over I feel I can finally post this (it's off topic-sorry...):crazy

Is it just me, or am I the only one who thought this was hilarious?! Does she know the "squirrel people" or what? :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

JSTAZ-you (and the other TSB members) did a great job! Way to brainstorm to find a way to help save this baby!:bowdown

[Skul]

Are these new symptoms? It seems odd for a sudden onset to be so severe and at different ages. Ca deficiency happens over time. Heavy metal poisoning can happen in a short time. Things like key rings and costume jewelry often have nickel, lead or cadmium (180 million recalled from China -see US embassy (in china) website for details). You can't tell what's toxic so assume that if it doesn't rust and it's an unknown metal your critter/child should NOT have it in their mouth!!
Another common toxin is non-stick pans, squirrels are safer than birds (killed easily with Teflon fumes) but they are still tiny. Even people get flu-like symptoms from Teflon and many don't even know it.
This is one area often over-looked.
Good point Cheeky, thanks.