ROACH POISON!?!

[chadfromphilly]

Somehow my squirrel broke into my bathroom and got to the roach bait traps. SHE ATE THE WHOLE THING!!! They are made by RAID and the tag on the back says they are DOUBLE CONTROL LARGE ROACH BAITS. They are made out of black plastic... The ACTIVE INGREDIENT is AVERMECTIN B1....0.05% I have no additional info on this trap.... Inside there is two trays of PEANUT BUTTER which might explain why she was attracted to it.... She is acting 100% normal right now and has even pee'd and pooped. I just gave her some almonds to see if she would eat and she is...

WHAT DO I DO!?! WILL SHE BE OK???

Chad

[Pointy Tale]

Oh my goodness, Hang tight I am sure a rehabber will be here shortly.

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

You need activated charcoal!!
Activated charcoal is estimated to reduce absorption of poisonous substances up to 60%.


It works by adsorbing chemicals, thus reducing their toxicity (poisonous nature), through the entire length of the stomach and small and large intestines (GI tract).


Activated charcoal itself is a fine, black powder that is odorless, tasteless, and nontoxic.


Activated charcoal is often given after the stomach is pumped (gastric lavage). Gastric lavage is only effective immediately after swallowing a toxic substance (within about one-half hour) and does not have effects that reach beyond the stomach as activated charcoal does.

Wait for someone with more knowledge about doses.

[chadfromphilly]

Where do I get it!?!

[Legomom]

Hang in there, Chad! I'm making a few calls right now.

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

check your local drug store as quickly as possible.

[ChicagoKim]

Activated charcoal is also used as a supplement for gas. If you can't find it at your closest drug store, try a health food/vitamin store.

It appears that Nature's Way is a popular brand when I search the internet. Here's what to look for:
http://www.advitamins.com/activated-charcoal-supplement-260mg-100-capsules.html
(http://www.advitamins.com/activated-charcoal-supplement-260mg-100-capsules.html)

[Legomom]

I'm on the phone with Philomycus.

"You need to get some aquarium charcoal. Walmart, etc. Grind it up into powder add 1 1/2 ccs of water. You need to tube her to get it into her esophogous."

Do you have a vet? An emergency vet clinic?? I know PA is tough.


Still making a few calls.

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

Time is of the essence, shes going to need it as quickly as possible.

[ChicagoKim]

I am NOT a rehabber, just trying to help. So double-check that you've got the right item before you use it.

Kim


Activated charcoal is also used as a supplement for gas. If you can't find it at your closest drug store, try a health food/vitamin store.

It appears that Nature's Way is a popular brand when I search the internet. Here's what to look for:
http://www.advitamins.com/activated-charcoal-supplement-260mg-100-capsules.html
(http://www.advitamins.com/activated-charcoal-supplement-260mg-100-capsules.html)

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

Chad, you may have to take her to IR vet,(emergency clinic 24. hrs) but I would get that charcoal in her now.

I PM'd you the emergency vet clinic's phone # & address.

[Legomom]

Just talked to Island Rehabber. She's looking up some info for you & will be on shortly.

Tubing a squirrel is difficult. It might be an idea to just make a mixture of the charcoal & instead of water, mix in prepared esbilac & let her suck it from the syringe. It's worth a try in IRs & my opinions. She's not gonna like the taste at all, but if you can even get her to take a little bit, it will help. Stand by. :grouphug


Thank you, Rippie!!!

[chadfromphilly]

My local rite aid has activated charchol but THERE IS NO VET CARE FOR HER ANYWHERE NEAR HERE!!! EVEN U of P WILL NOT SEE HER!!! DOES ANYONE KNOW A REHABBER IN PHILLY!?! She is acting fine right now... She might have eaten this from anywhere between 1230 till when I posted...

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

Call the animal specialty center, the phone number that I pm'd you.
They treat wildlife and you will be safe taking her there.

[chadfromphilly]

I sent my wife for the charcol.... in the meantime she is eating AND playing with me... I'm just telling you how she is acting so you can know her condition, not because I think she will be ok. I'M SCARED TO DEATH!!! BUT wouldn't you think that if her belly hurt she wouldn't be eating??? DAMM PA!!! No one will CARE FOR HER WITHOUT SURRENDERING HER!!!

[Loopy Squirrel]

Can you call your local poison control number. They know the most about poisons. I had to do it once when Rudy ate some of the combat roach gel. They were very helpful and didn't seem freaked when I told them it was a squirrel. Our emergency animal hospital often tells people to call them for further advice because they know more.

[Legomom]

Rehabbers:

Does anyone think that inducing vomitting would be an option?
Syrup of ipecac?

Chad:
What is the brand name of the product that she consumed?
Are you sure that it's not Ivermectin?

[island rehabber]

Chad, if rippie is telling you that center is OK I would believe her, and at least give them a call....:thumbsup
I've been researching avermectin and, interestingly, it's used to treat mites on lab mice. So we know it can't be totally horrible for rodents. However, I am NOT a medical professional and I wish LynninIN or fritzp or Mountain Mamma were here to interpret this stuff.....what I get from the article below is that 0.05% is a very very small dose....

Pharmacology/toxicology: Various avermectin components differ in their potency and
safety (2, 6). Nevertheless, all avermectins are believed to share common
pharmacologic/toxicologic mechanisms (1). Avermectins exert their anti-parasitic
activity via the activation of a glutamate-gated chloride channel present in the
invertebrate nerve and muscle cells (3, 4), and/or through the effect on gammaaminobutyric
acid (GABA) receptors (1, 3, 5), leading to paralysis and death of target
organisms. In vertebrates, avermectins can produce GABA-mimetic effects by acting as
an agonist at GABAA receptor, stimulating the release of GABA, or through other
mechanisms (1, 6, 7). Mammals, however, are less susceptible to the toxic effects of avermectins because GABA-mediated nerves occur only in the central nervous system (CNS) and avermectins do not readily cross the blood-brain barrier (BBB; 1). In addition to
GABA-mimetic effects, avermectins may induce hypotension in vertebrates through an increase in serum nitric oxide levels (11). Pharmcokinetics/toxicokinetics: Avermectins can be absorbed orally, parenterally and dermally. Following their absorption, maximum serum concentrations of ivermectin appeared 2.7 to 5 hours after oral dosing, and elimination half-life was 2810 hours among healthy volunteers and treated subjects (8- 10). Avermectins are largely excreted into the bile and feces, and urinary excretion accounts for only 0.5% to 2.0% of the administered doses (1). Information on the distribution and elimination of avermectins in poisoned subjects is not yet available.
Animal toxicity: Although avermectins have a wide margin of safety, high doses of
avermectins or mutations in p- glycoprotein can allow avermectins to pass through the BBB to cause neurotoxicity in animals (3), manifesting mydriasis, emesis, diarrhea, drooling, depression, ataxia, stupor, coma, tremors, and death in the absence of histologic changes (5, 10, 13, 14). For example, cattle injected subcutaneously with 20 to
40 times the recommended dose of ivermectin (i.e. 4 to 8 mg/kg) developed toxicity and
death (1, 5). Dogs (beagles) given a single dose of 5 mg/kg (> 200 times the therapeutic
dose) of ivermectin manifested mydriasis, and tremors, and more pronounced toxicity
occurred at 10 mg/kg (1). Dose-related toxicity was also found in chickens (13). Young
animals are generally more sensitive to the toxicity of avermectins. A kitten was reported
to exhibit toxicosis after receiving subcutaneous administration of 0.3 mg/kg of
ivermectin (5). Certain breeds of dogs (e.g. collies) allow more avermectins into the CNS
and are thus more vulnerable to avermectin poisoning (5). Animals deficient in pglycoprotein,
a component of the BBB, are also more sensitive to avermectin toxicity
than animals with normal p-glycoprotein levels (14, 15). Solvents and additives of
commercial avermectins (e.g. hexanol, butylated hydroxytoluene) may enhance the
toxicity as well (12).

[Anne]

The ASPCA poison hotline is 888 4256-4435 900 680-0000 National Pesticide Telecommunications Network 500-858-787

Keep her warm. force fluids. She will probably need some pain management.

[chadfromphilly]

Rehabbers:

Does anyone think that inducing vomitting would be an option?
Syrup of ipecac?

Chad:
What is the brand name of the product that she consumed?
Are you sure that it's not Ivermectin?
No, it says Avermectin B1 0.05% that is the active ingredient... Then it says INERT ingredients 99.95% That's all...

The animal poison control number I just called asked for $60.00 Looking for another number now...

[Buddy'sMom]

WHAT ABOUT INDUCING VOMITING???? (does anyone think that should not be done???)

THEN THE ACTIVATED CHARCOAL.

Inducing vomiting is not good for caustic types of poisons, but I don't think this would cause damage in the vomiting. that would get it out of her stomach before it can be absorbed. Followed by activated charcoal to soak up any remaining.

Just gave legomom a couple of poison hotline numbers and she is going to try to get someone on the phone to ask what should be done.

:grouphug :grouphug :grouphug

[Buddy'sMom]

also, legomom is calling LynninIN (first)

[Loopy Squirrel]

The vet at my emergency clinic says that it affects the exoskeleton of roaches and shouldn't effect the squirrel. ???? When Rudy got into the roach gel it contained a different ingredient and poison control too said it really shouldn't affect her. I still would try to flush with as many fluids as she will allow.

[chadfromphilly]

The ASPCA poison hotline is 888 4256-4435 900 680-0000 National Pesticide Telecommunications Network 500-858-787

Keep her warm. force fluids. She will probably need some pain management.
They are the ones asking for $60.00 before I do it, does anyone else have any info? Not trying to be cheap with my baby but we don't have too much $$$...

[chadfromphilly]

The vet at my emergency clinic says that it affects the exoskeleton of roaches and shouldn't effect the squirrel. ???? When Rudy got into the roach gel it contained a different ingredient and poison control too said it really shouldn't affect her. I still would try to flush with as many fluids as she will allow.

That might explain her looking ok BUT what do you guys recommend??? I am getting hit with lots of helpful loving advice but am confused!?! :dono :dono :dono

[chadfromphilly]

also, legomom is calling LynninIN (first)
THANK YOU!!!

[4skwerlz]

4 to 8 mg/kg bw is a large dose. Half of one percent is a low concentration; seems unlikely one trap would contain 4 mg. Sounds like you'll know within 5 hours. Some fruit, corn, or avocado might help by possibly absorbing some of the poison, since it is excreted in the feces. Or some other food that would typically move through the digestive system quickly: canned pumpkin? spinach?

[Legomom]

I'm running into the same thing as Chad with the #s & cost. Darnnit!
LynninIN will be on in a minute or two....she's researching. Hang in there, gang! :grouphug

[Buddy'sMom]

Chad - do you have the packaging for the trap? What is the net weight they list?

From what I've seen so far, I think it would take quite a bit of the avermectin to be a problem and want to see if the traps are light enough that they couldn't contain enough.


The oral LD50 for abamectin in rats is 10 mg/kg, and in mice ranges from 14 mg/kg to greater than 80 mg/kg [141,142]. http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/abamecti.htm

EDIT: abermectin is the same as avermectin

[chadfromphilly]

It's been about 2hrs since we came home and found this... She may have eaten this even earlier... Other than her being mad that I am keeping her awake she seems like her self. She is usually in bed long ago by now so that would explain the crankiness.... I have been giving her nuts, her big vice and is either eating them or hiding them...

I am comforatble with giving fluids...
Would you recommend CRANBERRY? How much? Would water be better?

[Pam]

The vet at my emergency clinic says that it affects the exoskeleton of roaches and shouldn't effect the squirrel. ???? When Rudy got into the roach gel it contained a different ingredient and poison control too said it really shouldn't affect her. I still would try to flush with as many fluids as she will allow.

John agrees with the vet at Loopy's emergency clinic. He looked up the product on the vet network and from what he read, there is very little Avermectin in the roach bait and would take a lot to cause a problem.

[chadfromphilly]

Chad - do you have the packaging for the trap? What is the net weight they list?

From what I've seen so far, I think it would take quite a bit of the avermectin to be a problem and want to see if the traps are light enough that they couldn't contain enough.


The oral LD50 for abamectin in rats is 10 mg/kg, and in mice ranges from 14 mg/kg to greater than 80 mg/kg [141,142]. http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/abamecti.htm

EDIT: abermectin is the same as avermectin
The only thing I have is the trap itself and there is a weight on it... Don't know if it's the weight of the whole trap or the poison ... It says... (.088 oz.)

[chadfromphilly]

I'm running into the same thing as Chad with the #s & cost. Darnnit!
LynninIN will be on in a minute or two....she's researching. Hang in there, gang! :grouphug
Obviously when you call them you are in a real need of their help... Asking for $60.00 is just plain disgusting and yet another reason I despise the ASPCA... You have no idea what the one here in PHILLY does to animals... That and a tab bit of trouble they gave us, wink, wink...

[Buddy'sMom]

The only thing I have is the trap itself and there is a weight on it... Don't know if it's the weight of the whole trap or the poison ... It says... (.088 oz.)


That's good. I thought the traps would weigh very little. And the active ingredient % is also very low. The combination means that there would be very little avermectin in the traps. That is good news.

I also found this:
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/24d-captan/abamectin-ext.html

ACUTE TOXICITY
Abamectin is a highly toxic material, however most formulated products containing abamectin are of low toxicity to mammals (5, 7). Emulsifiable concentrate formulations may cause moderate eye irritation and mild skin irritation (1). Symptoms of poisoning observed in laboratory animals include pupil dilation, vomiting, convulsions and/or tremors, and coma (5).

[chadfromphilly]

All of you who are making calls and sending messages back and forth...

YOU CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE HOW MUCH I ADORE YOU ALL!!! I COULD ONLY WISH YOU GUYS WOULD KNOW WHAT A RELIEF IT IS TO BE ABLE TO COME HERE AND GET INSTANTANEOUS, LOVING HELP!!! AGAIN, THANK YOU ALL....:bowdown :bowdown :bowdown :bowdown :bowdown :bowdown

It is starting to look like we dodged a MAJOR bullet here... I will keep a close eye on her ALL NIGHT... Please advise to what liquids I should give her...

CHAD

[Buddy'sMom]

The only thing I have is the trap itself and there is a weight on it... Don't know if it's the weight of the whole trap or the poison ... It says... (.088 oz.)



0.088 ounce = 2.5 gram This would be for the whole thing -- trap plus all ingredients, including inerts (which are usually the majority of the weight and volume).

I'm not really sure how to get a better handle on what the weight of the active ingredient might be.

Chad, sometimes there is a telephone number on the package, to talk to the company -- anything there? Do you know the company name?

[Loopy Squirrel]

Called another emergency clinic and they said the same thing as mine. They said the bait traps really don't contain very much of the ingredient to cause harm to mammals. She also did say you can call the number on the back of the box to try and get more info about what to do. She also said if you call the animal poison hotline they are very specific about telling you what to do but they do charge.

[chadfromphilly]

The trap is made by RAID and there is a question & comment # 800 558 5252 thats it...

[Legomom]

Can't hurt to give it a call, Chad. You could try this one, too.

1-800-494-4855 is the number for SC Johnson, the company that makes RAID.

[Loopy Squirrel]

I think that trying to get something like pedialyte in her would be fine. Even water is better than nothing. The goal is to try and flush it out as much as possible.

[Buddy'sMom]

http://extoxnet.orst.edu/pips/abamecti.htm

Breakdown in water: Abamectin is rapidly degraded in water.

This was talking about pond water and halflife (breakdown of half) is 4 days there.

BUT that means that it does begin breaking down in water. Doesn't it seem like a good idea to therefore give her as much to drink as he can get into her? :thinking :thinking

[Loopy Squirrel]

Got to run out and get my kid at a friends house. I'll check back as soon as I get home. Good luck.

[Buddy'sMom]

numbers are normal business hours only. I'll call the medical emergency number they give

[4skwerlz]

0.088 ounce = 2.5 gram This would be for the whole thing -- trap plus all ingredients, including inerts (which are usually the majority of the weight and volume).

I'm not really sure how to get a better handle on what the weight of the active ingredient might be.

Chad, sometimes there is a telephone number on the package, to talk to the company -- anything there? Do you know the company name?
If the 2.5g is the bait part, at .05% active ingredient, you end up with a max of 1.25mg abermectin for the whole thing.

If this is correct, you're okay.

(.05% is 5 one-hundreths of one percent.)

[Buddy'sMom]

SC Johnson Medical Help line 1-866-231-5406 (menu option "2" for animal help)

Baits contain about a drop of avermectin

Very nice woman and she will help BUT ONLY IF CHAD CALLS DIRECTLY!

I explained about him being in an illegal state -- they don't care and will not need any identifying info from you Chad, but can ask if the plastic was chewed, etc.

PLEASE CALL RIGHT NOW!!! If they ask any ID info that you don't feel comfortable about, JUST MAKE SOMETHING UP. They keep an internal records but otherwise don't care.

CALL NOW

[NaturesGift]

:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon in my prayers!!!

[LynninIN]

I should have checked for information here first. You all have done an incredible job. I'm so proud to be a TSB member.

Chad, I agree with all the great info given. SP would have needed to eat 4 to 5 traps to be in serious danger. She may have an upset stomach within the next 24 to 48 hours. You can help by giving her lots of fluids.

I'm pm you my number just in case you have questions later.

Edit: Please call the number Buddy'sMom gave for the company.

[Buddy'sMom]

But call the number anyway .... these people are trained to know exactly what you should do if your pet ingests their product. (They know it''s a squirrel -- she didn't even blink :D )

[island rehabber]

LynninIN...thank God....now I can exhale.....:bowdown

[Anne]

I can't believe that any one would charge a fee for life saving information. What is the world coming too? :nono :nono
Having looked into this deeper, IMHO-your baby should do fine. Water, pedalyte, apple juice, any of these should do well to flush her out. I recommend a stiff scotch for you and a good night's sleep:grouphug

[chadfromphilly]

I am going to try and flush her, can't hurt... I thank you all again... I have to be up at 5am so I need to try and catch some Zzzzz but I will be checking on her all night and either way will post back as soon as I can... Hopefully, you won't hear from me till tomorrow night after work. Please say a tiny prayer for Squirrely Pop! as I know it will help... Thanks again!!! Chad


http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=85830&stc=1&d=1243046582

[4skwerlz]

Well, you just de-wormed her.

[Legomom]

:poke Make that call before you go to bed, Chad. Better a little less sleep & peace of mind, than panic in the middle of the night. :grouphug

SC Johnson Medical Help line 1-866-231-5406 (menu option "2" for animal help)

[Legomom]

Well, you just de-wormed her.

Don't you mean, she de-wormed herself? :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

[Buddy'sMom]

Yes, yes Chad -- PLEASE CALL THEM (you will sleep better if you take a few moments to do that .... and so will we :tilt )


:grouphug :grouphug :grouphug :grouphug

[Loopy Squirrel]

My friend said that sometimes the companies with reinburse you if you have to pay for poison info if your pet ate their product.

[Legomom]

On a side note, I'd like to thank every one of you that responded to my phone calls. Thank you for trusting me with your phone numbers,
for allowing me to interrupt your evenings & for jumping in to help Chad during such a scary event. :thankyou

:bowdown TSB members are the BEST! :bowdown

[Jackie in Tampa]

Good Morning, looking for a positive update!
How is everyone this am?

[island rehabber]

:hyper

[squirrelfriend]

I have always loved your story of resqueing her. You are my HERO! I hope she pulls through this ok. Judging by what Lynninin said she should be. All my squirrels and myself are praying for her.

[Lady Squirrelly]

Went to bed early and just found this.

Oh Chad,
what an awful thing. I will keep you and SP in my prayers. Looking for good news today.

:grouphug

[tatcat]

:wave123 good morning chad...i followed this thread since ya started it yesterday...i did not want to interfere with the awesome advice you were given...i hope your lil one is doing ok today...i am keeping you, your wife, and the lil one in my prayers...:grouphug

[chadfromphilly]

Hello everyone,
i just wanted to give you an update on SP.... she is doing great today! playing and eating as usual... THANK YOU ALL SOO MUCH!!!

[merman]

WOW..

EVERYONE was waiting to hear this!!
What a relief!! :D
:jump

:wave123

[Buddy'sMom]

THANK GOODNESS!!!!! :wahoo :wahoo :wahoo :wahoo :wahoo :wahoo
Love, love, love Happy Endings! :flash3

We were all SO worried about Squirrely Pop! (and you) :grouphug :grouphug

When you recover from the several heart attacks you must have had last night, perhaps you can share some HAPPY Sp! pics and stories with us. :Love_Icon

:grouphug :Love_Icon :grouphug

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

:wott :wott

[Anne]

:wahoo :wahoo :wahoo :grouphug :grouphug :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :grouphug :grouphug
Fantastic!:)

[tatcat]

:jump :wahoo so glad to hear she is doing good today...can't wait to see pics!!

[island rehabber]

As they say in da Bronx, "THANGGOD fo' dat!!!" :thumbsup :wahoo:thumbsup