Appetite Stimulant Needed?

[fritz451]

Hello all,

I am still having problems with my 5-7 week old orange juice addicted grey squirrel. See my other post for all the history to date.

Her appetite is decreasing and she sleeps alot. Started off taking 4-6ccs of formula (basic PMR with whipping cream added, a trace of calcuim carbonate, and orange juice in place of water). This last feeding [feedings 8am, 12pm, 5pm, and 10pm] she took only 4ccs and absolutely refused it unless I cut it again with oj. Her weight is dropping also. She started out (after hydration) at 118g (weighed after feeding and voiding). She went up to 121-2g, but today she has started falling to the 111-2g range. Her urine is lightly colored and feces are golden and well formed, but not very much (one berry or two at the most). Also, she doesn't (never has) cried for food, just barely tolerates me feeding her. I'm worried that she is slipping away.

She is, however, wonderfully friendly. As I write this, she is curled up at the back of my neck in my shirt coller. She seems to be playful and inquisitive, when awake.

Any help with diet and appetite stimulants for picky eaters is needed.

Thanks

[4skwerlz]

Hi Fritz,

When a baby loses appetite and starts sleeping more, the first thing to think of is aspiration pneumonia. It happens very easily, especially when they are first learning how to eat from a syringe.

Put your ear up to her body and listen very carefully for any sounds like clicking or popping.

[fritz451]

I am well aware of aspiration pneumonia. I lost oone of my prievious litter of two to it. I am excdeedingly careful in feeding and have listened to her breating just in case . No sign of any congestion or blockage. Her temp. seems normal. She does sneeze occationally, but not excessively.

Thanks

[island rehabber]

fritz, another major reason for lack of appetite is dehydration -- which of course is a vicious cycle because the more dehydrated the baby gets, the less it wants to eat or drink, and so gets more dehydrated....etc etc. Here's what I suggest:

Make a solution of 2 cups very warm water
1.5 TABLEspoons of sugar
1/2 TEAspoon of salt
enough of that darn OJ to make her want to drink it.

Don't add anything else. See if she will take at least 5-7cc's of this mixture, and then try giving her formula again about 3 hrs later. Then alternate the mixture again, then formula. This has worked for me many times (except I use organic apple butter).....give it a try. :)

[fritz451]

Thanks Island Rehab.,

I was suspicious that dehydration could be a factor since she was very dehydrated when busted out of the wall. Possibly did not get enough fluid before formula. She sits on my shoulder or in my shirt coller, which is good and encouraged so I can monitor her all the time.

Anyway, what made me think of possible dehydration is she makes a lip smacking sound occasionally, a little bit like a dry mouth. The pinch the skin test is ambiguous.

I'll try hydration therapy immediately, but I have one other question. As I said before, her lungs sound clear, gums look fine, etc. But she does seem to have a sniffle. Just in case it's needed, what are the best drugs to treat pneumonia? There is a local farm supply store that stocks a fair amount of vet stuff for the farm. Notably, they do have tetracycline derivatives, some variants of pennicillin, etc. (they also have injectable calcium glucconate used to treat milk fever, which is similar to mbd in presentation and I used on a squirrel baby that developed mbd at the onset of learining to eat non formula, but thats a discussion for another day).

Also, how much urine should I be getting each voiding?

[fritz451]

Island Rehab,

Help. I tried to get her to drink the fluid. Got about 2cc or a little less down her before she vomited it and a sizeable portion of 'dinner' up. She also is starting to look weak, resting her nose on my shoulder rather than keeping it up.

[4skwerlz]

Island Rehab,

Help. I tried to get her to drink the fluid. Got about 2cc or a little less down her before she vomited it and a sizeable portion of 'dinner' up. She also is starting to look weak, resting her nose on my shoulder rather than keeping it up.

I'm going to call Island for you, in case she's offline.... Get her into a cozy box with a rice buddy for warmth and hang on....

[Legomom]

I just called her...she'll be on in a minute. Hang in there, fritz.

[island rehabber]

hi fritz...sorry she's not feeling well. If she only vomits this one time it's not necessarily something to panic about. Keep her as warm and quiet as possible, and let's think about what's been happening. She's been losing her appetite, which was not good to begin with. If you agree that dehydration could be the problem then either we need to try to get some fluids into her again, when she calms down, or perhaps someone you know in the vet profession -- a vet tech? could sub-q fluids (Lactated Ringers) ASAP....

[Jackie in Tampa]

rub some syrup on her gums, karo, maple
try again in a little while:grouphug
sorry , didn'yt see you IR

[4skwerlz]

I'm also wondering if she's staying warm enough on your shoulder.... usually they stay wrapped up warm in a blanket with a heating pad. If their body temp is low, they can't digest anything.

[island rehabber]

no problem Jackie that's a great idea, maple or karo syrup, or honey.

[fritz451]

Island,

She has stopped vomiting, but still looks weak. I don't have lactated ringers, but I do have injectable dextrose (50%), sterile syringes (1cc, 28ga) and have done sub q. for other squirrels.

Any thoughts, please

[fritz451]

Warmth seems ok. I tried to get her to stay down my shirt for warmth, but she climbs back on my shoulder.

[island rehabber]

I wouldn't sub-q unless she absolutely won't take anything by mouth....let's wait a little bit and try the hydrating solution one more time. Also, I need to look up the dextrose you mentioned as I was taught only to sub-q LRS so I need to educate myself. BRB....

[Loopy Squirrel]

Yes, don't SQ dextrose.

[4skwerlz]

Island, You can sub-q "simple saline solution." 1 cup water with 1 tsp salt. Distilled water is best (no minerals). The water can be boiled first.

[Loopy Squirrel]

I am wondering if the OJ has caused an upset belly. It does that to me when I drink too much.I would just try the rehydrating solution in a little, but small amts at a time and see if she keeps it down.

[4skwerlz]

Warmth seems ok. I tried to get her to stay down my shirt for warmth, but she climbs back on my shoulder.

I strongly recommend you get her on heat. If you must keep her on you, make a rice buddy, and wrap her and the rice buddy in a t-shirt or blanket and tuck it into your shirt.

A rice buddy is an old sock filled with dried rice or beans and microwaved for about 20 seconds or until toasty warm but not hot.

[fritz451]

Island, first, thanks a million. Second, the dextrose is for treating ketosis in cattle. I have used it as a sterile 'cut' for the calcium glucconate with exceptional success to treat mbd in a prievious squirrel whose calcium got so far out of whack that digestion shut down. Without it, the calcium sub-q coiuld be absorbed too fast.

She is looking better now, curled up again in my shirt coller.

Thanks again.

[fritz451]

Everybody, I tried the heated rice buddy. She won't stay on it. She feels warm, about normal to a little warmer than normal.

[island rehabber]

ok fritz we'll take all the good news we can get :D
Again, try the hydrating solution in a few minutes,,,,,let her smell it first, then drop a bit in her mouth, be very patient. it's amazing how when you decide you won't take no for an answer but are gently insistent, a close-mouthed baby becomes a little Hoover. The 50% dextrose is hypertonic, not isotonic, and would have to be diluted to 5% if you were going to sub-Q. (This comes from my International Wildlife Rehab Council manual.)

One thing to ease your mind: MBD rarely, rarely, RARELY occurs in a baby or juvenile squirrel. It's the six-month old plus age group that starts to show signs of a poor diet. I would not be concerned with this squirrel's calcium right now until we can get her hydration under control.

[fritz451]

Island,

Thanks for checking. I'll share my experience with a prievious grey and mbd while I'm waiting to try hydration fluid again.

That squirrel was one of two recovered from a crawl space after the mother was killed by a car. Found them only after they started to cry out for mother (a sound, once heard, you never want to hear again). They were ~2 weeks old. Fed them formula (similar to what I'm feeding now, without the oj). I lost one to pneumonia. At 4 or 5 weeks, eyes opened and she started playing with food. This was 7+ years ago, before the wonderful resource TSB.

Anyway, back to her story. I had placed a number of things in the cage for her to sample eat. One was a cap full of apple sauce. At the time, I thought it was amusing to watch her learning to eat. Plunging her nose in the cap of applesauce and smearing it all over the place. Turned my back and the applesauce was gone (smeared on the cage floor, I thought). Found out several hours later that she actually ate a good chunk of it. Absolutely no calcium in apple sauce. Started having severe mbd symptoms (loss of hind legs, grand mal seizures, large intestines shut down). I was frantic. Searched my library of medical books for answers and cased the web. Tried feding calcium remodies, but she would throw them up. Finally found a reference on the net to "milk feaver" in dary cattle. The symptoms are very similar to mbd. Treatment is sub-q calcium. Went out and got the materials and saved her with it (after calling every vet and wildlife rehabber available at the time only to be told to bring her in for free euthanization).

Anyway, that's the short version of that experience.

I'm going to try her on the rehydration formula again now.

Thanks to all

[island rehabber]

Wow - frightening story! Glad you saved her with the sub-Q calcium.
This also illustrates how crucial it is that babies be on formula until at least 7-8 weeks old, since they get plenty of calcium from it. The trouble starts post-weaning, unfortunately.

Here's hoping our girl takes a nice big slurp of nice warm fluids!

[fritz451]

Island,

Got about 4ccs in/on her before she started fighting me too much. Figured I'll take a pause and see how that works. I think she feels a little better - rubbing her muzzle all over my shirt to clean up.

I'll keep everybody posted...

[island rehabber]

Island,

Got about 4ccs in/on her before she started fighting me too much. Figured I'll take a pause and see how that works. I think she feels a little better - rubbing her muzzle all over my shirt to clean up.

I'll keep everybody posted...

4cc's -- we'll take it. Try again in about 90 minutes.
Yes, you are a squirrel napkin. We are all squirrel napkins around here. And squirrel wee-wee pads, too....:sanp3:D

[fritz451]

Island and all,

Thanks for your warm welcome and many words of help and encouragement.

Island, I'll try in 90 min. with more fluid. Also, figured out a trick with her and the oj, although she'll probably get wise to it. Draw just a little into the syringe after it is filled with whatever. First taste she gets is oj and then she takes what's in the syringe, at least for a while. Gives me a nasty look and pushes it away when she figures out she's been duped...

Thanks

[4skwerlz]

Island and all,

Thanks for your warm welcome and many words of help and encouragement.

Island, I'll try in 90 min. with more fluid. Also, figured out a trick with her and the oj, although she'll probably get wise to it. Draw just a little into the syringe after it is filled with whatever. First taste she gets is oj and then she takes what's in the syringe, at least for a while. Gives me a nasty look and pushes it away when she figures out she's been duped...

Thanksj

Good thinking.:thumbsup

[island rehabber]

fritz you just reminded me of a squirrel I had about 3 years ago. He absolutely would not touch formula unless I mixed some apple juice into it. I finally 'tricked' him by filling the syringe normally with formula, then dipping it in a shot glass full of apple juice so it would smell like it. He did get annoyed, but I kept dipping :D. BTW he grew up big and strong and perfectly normal.

[fritz451]

Island,

I know it's getting late for you, but one more question. First, I did get another 2cc in her about 5 min ago. She seems fairly content, now resting under my shirt on my shoulder.

Question about urine quantity and color. As I have said, she was in a wall for at least 3 days. I didn't get any urine out of her for 24-36 hr after hydration/feeding. Then it was darker than usual, but expected with dehydration. I stimulate her after meals and usually get probably a cc or so (guessing). Color is just barly yellow/brown. How much do you think I should get?

Thanks again

[island rehabber]

Island,

I know it's getting late for you, but one more question. First, I did get another 2cc in her about 5 min ago. She seems fairly content, now resting under my shirt on my shoulder.

Question about urine quantity and color. As I have said, she was in a wall for at least 3 days. I didn't get any urine out of her for 24-36 hr after hydration/feeding. Then it was darker than usual, but expected with dehydration. I stimulate her after meals and usually get probably a cc or so (guessing). Color is just barly yellow/brown. How much do you think I should get?

Thanks again

hi fritz...if her urine has any color at all, she is still dehydrated. A healthy squirrel her age will pee a river, normally. I have never measured cc's so can't help you there. I would definitely keep up the fluids and keep her warm. If her hydration increases significantly overnight thanks to your efforts, I think you will see clearer pee and a hungrier squirrel tomorrow morning.

[fritz451]

Hello island and everybody!

Good news! I think we have her problems licked. I kept up hydrating her last night, only mixing the slightest bit of formula in with the last dose. This morning, she ran me out of 1/2 strength formula (8+cc) (also, only a taste of oj in it). She is active, playing and groomong.

I can only assume that she may have been in the wall longer than my 3+ day estimate. I did the 24hr+ hydration, which was aparently not enough.

Only one concern is that I couldn't get anything out of her post feeding stimulation. Not really a concern yet due to her personality - I can sit there and q-tip her for 5 min, give up, and have her pee on me [she just did as I am writing this!].

Anyway, my sincere thanks to all who chimed in on this, especially Island Rehab.

[Legomom]

This is wonderful news!! Way to go, both of you! :thumbsup

If she was seriously dehydrated, and it sounds like she was, it will probably be a few days of formula feedings before you see any stool. (At least, that has been my experience.)

Best of luck to both of you! When things settle down, we'd love to see a picture of your furry friend. :grouphug

[island rehabber]

Fritz!! :thumbsup
I just got home -- what wonderful news! Dehydration is so tricky in squirrels....it returns, then subsides, then returns again until we jump-start that little system.
She sounds a lot like my Toofie....I actually thought her kidneys weren't working for the first two days I had her because she would not pee...until I finally held her on my lap long enough for her to pee all over me. :D
Good work dad!

[tatcat]

:wave123 hi fritz and a big :Welcome to our tsb family!!! i just read thru this thread...i wasnt on much last night...so glad to hear your lil one is doing better...:jump i cant wait for pics...:poke

[4skwerlz]

Such good news!:thumbsup Please keep us posted on how "OJ" is doing.