Rats and Squirrels

[PBluejay2]

I have heard many times on TSB and have even said myself that we base much of our information on, treatment of, and nutrition given to squirrels on what we know about rats because they are "close relatives." As we all know, however, there are differences, and the extent of those differences are relatively unknown. This is not meant to suggest that any of us are doing anything wrong within the limits of our knowlege; however, I've been trying to detemine how similar squirrels actually are to rats. We seem to find some comfort in the development of our ideas concerning their care on this central idea. In my little foray into evolution and zoology, however, I've found that "Evolution-wise" squirrels are as apt to be as similar to rats as we humans are to Howler monkies (Actually being from the same suborder, there's more of a chance we are similar to Howler monkies than the squirrels are to rats). Only at the level of "Order" in the taxonomy of the two creatures can they be grouped together. From that point on, their evolutionary trees branch off and go in may different directions. At the risk of bringing on the wrath of TSB members once again, I submit we might ought to rethink some of our assumptions and give as much attention to the differences between the two animals as we have invested our hopes in their similarities. I've attached an abbreviated evolutionary chart (info derived from the Animal Diversity Web and the Tree of Life Web Project).

[PBluejay2]

Well, 4skwerlz heard her echo, and now I'm hearing mine.

Hello--o---o---o---o---o---o!

[Ardilla]

I definitely hear what you're saying. They're not really that closely related.

[prgault]

It is always risky to assume like needs for apparently like animals. Zoos made this mistake for years, especially with diets. There is a famous. specific case that I can't recall right now.

Also too:D , basing any decisions about captive care on classification right now is dangerous. with the advent of DNA analysis and other techniques, the tree of life is changing rapidly..e.g. Vultures are storks!?!?

P_

[4skwerlz]

I absolutely agree. Tell me a better "starting place" than the nutrient requirements of rats and I'll start all over. :D

[4skwerlz]

Nice chart, but of course if you include the whole evolutionary chart, they look a whole lot closer. The important thing is their similarity physiologically, i.e., both omnivores with similar dentition, digestive tracts, body size, and wild diets. And of course, everything is always dependent on results; that is, how well squirrels do on a diet designed for rats. I'm still looking for research or results that suggest any important differences that need to be accounted for. And unless you can come up with a better starting point, the debate seems pointless.

[PBluejay2]

Nice chart, but of course if you include the whole evolutionary chart, they look a whole lot closer. The important thing is their similarity physiologically, i.e., both omnivores with similar dentition, digestive tracts, body size, and wild diets. And of course, everything is always dependent on results; that is, how well squirrels do on a diet designed for rats. I'm still looking for research or results that suggest any important differences that need to be accounted for. And unless you can come up with a better starting point, the debate seems pointless.

4S, you rarely, if ever, like anything I post. I've had a run-in with you on occasion, but I've also tried to befriend you, bury the hatchet, applaud you when I thought you deserved it, and questioned you when I thought questions were needed.

However, this debate is not pointless. Can I come up with a better starting point? I don't know, but the fact remains that much of our treatment (medically and nutritionally) of squirrels we are basing on our assumption that they are close relatives to rats, which they are not, at least not in the evolutionary chain, and the more you expand the chart, the greater the differences, not fewer). In my humble opinion, I think most of us would like to think they are much like rats for the same reason people who don't particularly care for squirrels call them "tree rats"--they're about the same size, kind of look alike, and belong to the same order--rodents (but so do beavers, porcupines, ground hogs, and so forth)--and therefore we can treat and feed them like rats and feel good about ourselves. As far as physical/physiological similarities, there are as many differences as similarities (e.g. cranial structure, muscular structure (especially in the jaws), dental structure (rats have 16 teeth, squirrels have 20), reproductive habits (number of offspring, number of litters per year), skeletal structure (rats don't have the ability to turn their hind feet 180 degrees, nor are their tails as dexterious), eating habits (I've never seen a squirrel eat bar soap or dog ****), longevity--and if these differences exist, there are bound to be many, many others that we simply don't know about but should try to investigate. I personally am not going to allow myself to be locked into one line of thinking and blind myself to other possibilities because I think I've found an answer, a solution, a medicine, or even a diet when, in fact, I, and all of us, may be wrong. I know how important it is to you to position yourself as an authority, and you've done some reading and research and I've ceded several points (I'm still making your blocks in hopes that they are the best food alternative we can come up with (yet), but I maintain that a fair look at the ingredients suggests that they are basically a formula-based, vitamin-fortified nut cookie (but if they work, they work!))), and even silently endured you sarcasm (did I really make you unconscious with my intelligent and pithy comments?) and your insults ("probably" you responded when I tried to make the joke that the reason my female squirrel wasn't as affectionate because "Maybe it's just me and women.), but for you to declare this debate "pointless" is an indication to me that you consider yourself "the authority (as many members do consider you)," have the answers, and are closing your mind to possibilities. I truly appreciate all the research and effort you've put in to learning about squirrels and perhaps even moreso rats, and many have benefitted from your doing so, but unless you can be open to the possibility that perhaps you do not have all the answers, no matter how diligently you "Google" for your authoritative responses, that there's a possibility that even your famous squirrel blocks may one day prove not to be the best possible food for captive squirrels (and I have a few questions), that perhaps none of us have answers but can only pose more questions; unless you can get over whatever problem you have with me personally and cease (as I have tried) to be so adversarial rather than collegial, then I think you may need to reconsider just how "scientific" you really are in your approach to your quest for knowlege, and I ask you to agree with me that neither of us should respond to each other's threads/posts. If, on the other hand, since you obviously have more time on your hands than I do for such things, you care to research objectively more about the similarities and particularly the differences between these two distantly-related species and share with me and others, you'll save me a lot of time and I will be ever-so appreciative and would welcome having a friend and colleague who shares with me the ultimate desire to discover what is best for our little furry friends.

[4skwerlz]

Lord have mercy! Now I am truly speechless....:thinking

[PBluejay2]

Lord have mercy! Now I am truly speechless....:thinking

I really doubt that, sweetie. What's next? We ride on a sailboat down Times Square (assuming you saw the movie)?

[whopoopwrasse]

Well I shouldn't stick my nose in this one but I can't help it....

Similar or not, the point is, the blocks work, I'm not an expert but the formulation seems healthy and what ever is missing if anything would be compensated by the veggies, fruit, nuts, bark etc....

Of all the posts and threads I've read since I got here, I still haven't read anything about a squirrel on a 4s block diet getting sick or coming down with MBD. So they do the job and that's the bottom line, I'm not saying that there isn't a possibility of developing something better but like they say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

I can't help but notice that there is a bit of obsessiveness in trying to make a better block and I'm not sure there's a point.....

[Ardilla]

It's pretty disheartening to see PBluejay2's attempt to have an open discussion about the best way to improve captive squirrels' diet turn into a personality conflict.

As for the current squirrel block formulation, yes, I am grateful for it, and it does seem to prevent MDB, but MDB is not the only concern here. What about too much of certain fat-soluble vitamins that can accumulate in the squirrels' bodies (vitamins D and A are fat soluble--the excess can't just be urinated out). That is a huge concern of mine, especially given that a rat is not a gray is not a flyer. My Penny is tiny--only 56 grams--and I don't want her ODing on vitamins.

I'm still offering the squirrel blocks to Penny, but she herself has cut way back on them, which makes me wonder if her body senses she's already "maxed out" on certain nutritional components in them.

As I said before, I truly am grateful to 4S for creating the recipe and sharing it, but there is always room for improvement, and I appreciate the attempts at ongoing discussion. It would be nice if people could put aside their differences in the name of helping our babies.

[PBluejay2]

Well I shouldn't stick my nose in this one but I can't help it....

Similar or not, the point is, the blocks work, I'm not an expert but the formulation seems healthy and what ever is missing if anything would be compensated by the veggies, fruit, nuts, bark etc....

Of all the posts and threads I've read since I got here, I still haven't read anything about a squirrel on a 4s block diet getting sick or coming down with MBD. So they do the job and that's the bottom line, I'm not saying that there isn't a possibility of developing something better but like they say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

I can't help but notice that there is a bit of obsessiveness in trying to make a better block and I'm not sure there's a point.....

For me, the issue isn't about making a better block but undertanding that there could be fundamental differences between squirrels' needs, physiology, and so forth and rats' needs and so forth, and we should keep an open mind to that possibility--hopefully even research them As I tried to say, if the blocks work, then that's what we should go with--for now--until research comes up with something better, more suited for squirrels. I just refuse to get locked in to one way of thinking, like that Clarissa somebody thought of her "Nutballs" or whatever they were. I'm making "Henry blocks" like everyone else, but when i think about the differences between the animals (squirrels and rats) and how far apart they are on the evolutionary chain, I have to question if the prescribed diet and even the medicinal dosages and so forth that we give them are actually the best. As far as I know (with minor disagreements) they are the best we have so far to our knowlege, but I want to keep my mind open to other possibilities. If there's a point, it is that we should all be open to the possibility that we may all be wrong to some degree. Basically, all animals need protein, fats, carbohydrates, certain vitamins and minerals, and so forth but at different levels, ratios, amounts. Finding what's optimal for squirrels is a process in the making still, in my opinion. The mentality of "If it works, don't fix it" would leave us with wood stoves, feudalism, slavery, direct current, horses and buggies, chalk and slate, and--god forbid--MS Dos.

[muffinsquirrel]

OK - everyone go sit in the corner for a 5 min. time out!

The trouble is, you are both right. I think Henry's blocks are the greatest thing to come along for squirrels in a long time. I also think that when you stop trying to improve things, you stop growing. Squirrels are a very 'unknown continent' as far as food, reproduction, etc, are concerned. (It has not been that long ago that people believed that flying squirrels would not reproduce in captivity.) There is still so very much to be learned, and I'm sure that many of the things we now believe to be true will eventually be proven wrong.

The only way new things will be discovered is by people asking questions - people like us. Right now, squirrels are not at the top of the list of wildlife being studied. There are various studies being done, but I find it very difficult to find out who is studying what, where. And whatever and wherever the studies are, I am fairly sure that they are not focused towards squirrels as pets! We can all be of great help in adding to what is known about these special animals. Observation, discussion, and shared knowledge will bring out a lot of facts, and prove or disprove many things we now think. Discussion DOES NOT mean disagreement - it means puting forth different ideas and talking about them without hard feelings and with an open mind. Discussion is "I think", not "I know". And most of all, discussion is having an open mind and a willingness to consider other viewpoints.

Please let's not fight about things - in the long run it will only harm the very squirrels we all want to help.

muffinsquirrel

[PBluejay2]

OK - everyone go sit in the corner for a 5 min. time out!

The trouble is, you are both right. I think Henry's blocks are the greatest thing to come along for squirrels in a long time. I also think that when you stop trying to improve things, you stop growing. Squirrels are a very 'unknown continent' as far as food, reproduction, etc, are concerned. (It has not been that long ago that people believed that flying squirrels would not reproduce in captivity.) There is still so very much to be learned, and I'm sure that many of the things we now believe to be true will eventually be proven wrong.

The only way new things will be discovered is by people asking questions - people like us. Right now, squirrels are not at the top of the list of wildlife being studied. There are various studies being done, but I find it very difficult to find out who is studying what, where. And whatever and wherever the studies are, I am fairly sure that they are not focused towards squirrels as pets! We can all be of great help in adding to what is known about these special animals. Observation, discussion, and shared knowledge will bring out a lot of facts, and prove or disprove many things we now think. Discussion DOES NOT mean disagreement - it means puting forth different ideas and talking about them without hard feelings and with an open mind. Discussion is "I think", not "I know". And most of all, discussion is having an open mind and a willingness to consider other viewpoints.

Please let's not fight about things - in the long run it will only harm the very squirrels we all want to help.

muffinsquirrel

I agree whole-heartedly.

[prgault]

I absolutely agree. Tell me a better "starting place" than the nutrient requirements of rats and I'll start all over. :D

I'm new here and don't know your background, so if you have conducted a literature search before ignore the next few lines and take a look at the paper I have attached.

If you haven't done a lit search, just read the paper and note the references that appear relevant to your research. The get those papers and do the same thing.....Some times you have to did deep and titles can be misleading. For example any paper discussing a particular, specific aspect of diet is probably going to have references to more broad dietary studies.

Have Fun!

P_

P.S. I am still looking for those plant lists

[Jackie in Tampa]

I don't have time to research...however, I trust and appreciate my friend for doing the best she can to keep my sqs happy and healthy. I am a hands on sqs person, I have to rely on someone to do the foot work. That is what makes TSB a team and that is how we provide sq assistance...which is MY goal.
:bowdown Thank you 4 Skwerls for going the extra mile, many hours ...thanks for formulating milkshakes for my toothless MBD bundle of joy! Sir Rockstar Licious, yes he is related to Sid Vicious...but we don't talk about that side of the family!:rotfl

PBJ, I welcome you to also help him! If you have a recipe that I can get him to like and will get him the nutrition that he needs, please share. I can give you all his statistics! It's going to be tough though.

Rats and sqs????:dono

but I like what MS,WWrasse and Ardilla said...
PBJ:poke please be nice to the only person working on the biggest problem here....saving sqs thru diet! thanks ...I need 4S!:wave123

[PBluejay2]

but I like what MS,WWrasse and Ardilla said...
PBJ:poke please be nice to the only person working on the biggest problem here....saving sqs thru diet! thanks ...I need 4S!:wave123

We all need 4S, and I hope to have an amicable, collegial, even friendly relationship with all TSB members, particularly her--if she desires and will attempt the same. This thread was intentionally begun to point out that there is a great possibility that more differences exist between squirrels and rats than we have assumed and that maybe we should rethink our dependence on the study of rats to care for our squirrels, not simply regarding diet but also disease and treatment and so forth. I too have little time for research, but I try to squeeze some in whenever I can. Hopefully now that PRG is on board, 4S and PRG (and possibly even I) can can contribute to a better understanding of these special creatures.

[Jackie in Tampa]

:bowdown :bowdown
:wahoo :wahoo
:thumbsup

[4skwerlz]

Thanks for the article, prgault. There seem to be a lot of articles on the feeding preferences and behaviors of wild squirrels, I suppose because of the importance to forest ecology. Fascinating, and helpful to the captive diet project in terms of better understanding the wild diet. However, I haven't found any studies of the nutrient requirements of squirrels beyond fat/protein/carbs. If you know of any, please share. I did find one older study that determined the levels of several vitamins and minerals in squirrel milk. Yes, they actually milked squirrels....

[Legomom]

Wow! I don't even want to know how that worked! :crazy

Seriously though....4s, PB & PRG, :thankyou for your determination to continue to learn & expand upon what little we do know about squirrels. :bowdown

[Ardilla]

but I like what MS,WWrasse and Ardilla said...
PBJ:poke please be nice to the only person working on the biggest problem here....saving sqs thru diet! thanks ...I need 4S!:wave123

Actually, I think PBJ is being nice. I didn't mean my comments to imply otherwise.