Food Data Chart Update: Calcium to Phosphorus Ratios

[PBluejay2]

I've updated the chart to include some missing foods. Chart 2 is in alphabetical order, listing milligrams of calcium to milligrams of phosphorus per 100 grams of food, along with the ratios. Chart 3 ranks them highest to lowest as far as ratio of calcium to phosphorus. This is for informative purposes only, not to incite debate on what foods have what (e.g. pumpkin seeds). In addition, if anyone inclined to do the math, he or she can weigh one gram of food "A" with "X" number of milligrams of phosphorus and calcium (even micrograms) and balance out "X" number of grams of a food with more milligrams of calcium and phosphorus to achieve the 2:1 balance (assuming your squirrel will eat all of both). I personally don't have that kind of ambition or time, so I wanted to know which foods had the higher calcium to phosphorus ratios (regardless of amount of milligrams of each mineral) so that when I went grocery shopping I could lean toward the healthiest choices. My designations of "Good," "Risky," and so forth are completely arbitrary, and you can make your own decisions about individual foods, but I tried to classify for general categories. I hope this helps some of you.

PS: IR, if a "sticky" means it's one of the post always at the beginning of a thread, I humbly offer that this might be included.

[Ardilla]

Thanks for these.

My only comment/question regards the listing of mushrooms as "evil." Those of us with flyers give mushrooms several times a week because flyers are nocturnal and flyers can produce their own vitamin D if they get mushrooms, and vitamin D is needed to metabolize calcium. Thoughts, anyone?

[PBluejay2]

Thanks for these.

My only comment/question regards the listing of mushrooms as "evil." Those of us with flyers give mushrooms several times a week because flyers are nocturnal and flyers can produce their own vitamin D if they get mushrooms, and vitamin D is needed to metabolize calcium. Thoughts, anyone?


I know very little about flyers, and it's true that mushrooms are one of the very few foods that provide vitamin D, and vitamin D is necessary to metabolize calcium so I have to pass on this question, really. The chart was intended simply to compare calcium to phosphorus in foods--which is a major concern for greys and foxers.

[Mickey's Mom]

I hope this helps some of you.




Thanks PBluejay2! :thankyou This will be very helpful to me.

[Legomom]

Silly question here.....

What's the difference between pumpkin & the pumpkin under 'winter squash'?

[PBluejay2]

Silly question here.....

What's the difference between pumpkin & the pumpkin under 'winter squash'?


I'm not a vegetable expert by any means, but even though a pumpkin is in the "squash" category, there is such a thing called a "pumpkin squash" which is different than what I, at least, call a "pumpkin." I'll have to let someone else who is better versed answer.

[4skwerlz]

I'm not a vegetable expert by any means, but even though a pumpkin is in the "squash" category, there is such a thing called a "pumpkin squash" which is different than what I, at least, call a "pumpkin." I'll have to let someone else who is better versed answer.

A pumpkin is a type of winter squash. So is an acorn squash, etc. They're usually quite similar nutritionally.

[Al's mom]

I'm not a vegetable expert by any means, but even though a pumpkin is in the "squash" category, there is such a thing called a "pumpkin squash" which is different than what I, at least, call a "pumpkin." I'll have to let someone else who is better versed answer.
yes, there is a pumpkin squash, which is different from a pumpkin, they look like cute lil mini pumpkins, but they are not just small punkins, they are tiny, fit in the palm of your hand

[Mrs. Jack]

I know there's a difference between the pumpkins you carve and the ones called sugar or cooking pumpkins? they've less seeds and stuff I think... :thinking

[Legomom]

Any ideas about chayotes? DH picked one up the other day....thought it might be ok for the babies. :Love_Icon

[4skwerlz]

Any ideas about chayotes? DH picked one up the other day....thought it might be ok for the babies. :Love_Icon

Looks like a good one! :thumbsup Good calc/phos ratio and lots of other vitamins. I might add it to the "Healthy Diet" list.

[Legomom]

I'll let you know what Teddy & Christine think. (My personal food critics! :D )

[Legomom]

OOPS! I meant to tell you that they both like the chayotes! :thumbsup

[island rehabber]

OOPS! I meant to tell you that they both like the chayotes! :thumbsup

So do I -- with butter, garlic & salt....yummmmmmmm :thumbsup

[geocat52]

Rover the Tortle will add his stamp of approval for this delicious treat! I actually got a deal on 4 of them, and 2 started sprouting on my kitchen counter after just a couple of days. Since I don't have a yard with room to grow them, a friend volunteered to give them a chance. I'll let you know how that goes throughout the summer...:thumbsup

[emberphyer]

I would love to read this list but i was inable to open the file. Is there another way to post it? :thankyou - Emebrphyer

[Legomom]

I converted them to .pdf. See if you can open these. If not, private message me with your email address & I can email them to you. (Let me know if you prefer MS Word or Adobe.) :)

[geocat52]

A chayote is a really ugly green, wrinkled, pear-shaped member of the squash/gourd family. They are known by several different names, including vegetable pear. :) You have to wonder who first decided it was something edible!

[ChipmunkLuver]

Great info!!!

Thank you for taking the time to put this together in such a neat, orderly fashion! Your hard work is very much appreciated. :thankyou

I'm happy with most of the information I found out, most of the things I feed my Chipmunks are on the plus side - but ohh I am restricting those pumpkin seeds now! The only other thing I feed them that wasn't on here is Rosehips, I wondered how they would score so I checked the second website you listed - for any Curious Critters they're pro-calcium (about 2.7:1 I think? Not sure I did it right..).

[Pointy Tale]

PBluejay2—I came across this thread tonight via another thread and it is Great! That was a lot of effort on the nutritional chart and I like that you made one alpha and the based on the numbers—good thinking!

[luvs squirrels]

Printed it out today. :thumbsup

[ljhpsauce]

I know very little about flyers, and it's true that mushrooms are one of the very few foods that provide vitamin D, and vitamin D is necessary to metabolize calcium so I have to pass on this question, really. The chart was intended simply to compare calcium to phosphorus in foods--which is a major concern for greys and foxers.
This confuses me now...are you saying mushrooms are not good for squirrels???? as they are on the healthy food for squirrels chart & i give my squirrel button mushrooms as in the wild they would eat wild fungi/mushrooms.

[dirgedoll]

Anyone have thoughts on soy beans?

My flyers love these! I throw them in with all their other goodies.

:thankyou

[4skwerlz]

Anyone have thoughts on soy beans?

My flyers love these! I throw them in with all their other goodies.

:thankyou

We try to avoid soy products because they are associated with tumors in rodents, possibly because they are very high in phytoestrogens.

[island rehabber]

4S, Dr P emailed me today to say he has not forgotten about us and our calcium questions! :thumbsup

[dirgedoll]

Thank you so much for your response, I will remove these from my flyers' diets immediately, and keep on with what's on the charts, there's so much on there anyway...I'm glad this board is here to bounce ideas off of. :)

Thanks again...

Jupiter
:crazy

[astra]

We try to avoid soy products because they are associated with tumors in rodents, possibly because they are very high in phytoestrogens.

That's also true for humans. Moreover, 99.99% of soy at least in North America (possible everywhere by now) is GMO.

[Stefalicious]

Can someone actually copy and paste the chart on here or something, I cant see those charts by those links?????

[Pointy Tale]

Can someone actually copy and paste the chart on here or something, I cant see those charts by those links?????
Stefalicious—:wave123
This is one of my favorite references. I’ve put the chart in Adobe for you, can you read it now? If not PM me and maybe I can email the contents to you.
Good luck.

[mpetys]

Hey, I just wanted to bump this thread up so if anyone hasn't seen the charts they will know it is here. Somehow, in the 10 months I have been on TSB, I missed this. I know it is a sticky but I think whenever I went to the Nutrition section, I was always looking up specific things: what to feed, when to feed, how much to feed etc. And if I saw the heading "Food Data Chart Update: Calcium to Phosphorus" I probably just passed over it because at that time the whole Calcium to Phosphorus ratio and how important it is was beyond my comprehension.

Anyhow, I found it very enlightening. And from this day forward it will definitely help me as I pick and choose what veggies and fruits to feed my guys.

Michele

[Charley Chuckles]

So do I -- with butter, garlic & salt....yummmmmmmm :thumbsup
Charley likes them but I have never tried them yet.....butter/garlic and salt :thinking maybe I will try that :D

[Charley Chuckles]

I was looking for coconut but do not see it on the list :thinking in small quantities :dono

[Foamy the squirrel]

some of the stuff on here says its ok to give to the squirrels but on the healthy diet chart the things on this chat are not ok... and visa virsa can some one explane to me about this ... is confusing me

[newsquirrelmommy]

I was wondering the same thing Foamy. Like collard greens and spinach are good on the nutrition chart but on the diet chart it says to avoid. Can someone please explain. I dont want to feed my Squirt something that he should not eat. thanks

[kassy]

I've updated the chart to include some missing foods. Chart 2 is in alphabetical order, listing milligrams of calcium to milligrams of phosphorus per 100 grams of food, along with the ratios. Chart 3 ranks them highest to lowest as far as ratio of calcium to phosphorus. This is for informative purposes only, not to incite debate on what foods have what (e.g. pumpkin seeds). In addition, if anyone inclined to do the math, he or she can weigh one gram of food "A" with "X" number of milligrams of phosphorus and calcium (even micrograms) and balance out "X" number of grams of a food with more milligrams of calcium and phosphorus to achieve the 2:1 balance (assuming your squirrel will eat all of both). I personally don't have that kind of ambition or time, so I wanted to know which foods had the higher calcium to phosphorus ratios (regardless of amount of milligrams of each mineral) so that when I went grocery shopping I could lean toward the healthiest choices. My designations of "Good," "Risky," and so forth are completely arbitrary, and you can make your own decisions about individual foods, but I tried to classify for general categories. I hope this helps some of you.

PS: IR, if a "sticky" means it's one of the post always at the beginning of a thread, I humbly offer that this might be included.

Thank u for posting the meaning of "sticky," b/c I really did not know what it was! haha! I'm just learning how to even navigate this forum and that was a big help(as is your post).

[SquirrelRefuge]

Portabella mushrooms are favorite with flyers. I also bring in branches covered in moss and other lichens. They have hours of fun shredding (it makes a huge mess) and lots of good nutrition.

[Unikorngrrl]

I have a flyer, his name is Jax. He began showing early signs of MBD and "The Squirrel Board" is where I found the info to treat him as there is no Vet here that will see him. He's doing GREAT! I didn't even realize his energy level was low until he started feeling better and he is all over the place! I've dramatically changed his diet, and I am still giving him concentrated calcium. <The guilt has been tremendous> His top teeth were mush and came out of his little head when I went to trim them, but they are growing back HARD already! I'm very excited about that, I love him so very much! :Love_Icon

How much should he be eating per day? I don't want him to be hungry, but I don't want to go overboard either.

He doesn't mess with the mineral block or the cuddle bone at all. This is not a huge concern right now since he doesn't need to shorten his teeth and I am giving him concentrated Ca, but it will be...Should I just add rodent vitamins to his food or water? He will chew on sticks etc...

I read in one place that Spinach was good and then on your nutrition thing not so much. Is it good or bad? b/c I've been adding it to his diet a great deal since his seizure.

Right now I am feeding yogurt twice a week with ReptoCal in it, concentrated Ca daily, and a smorgasbord of food that I try to change up a little each day. Boiled eggs, meal worms, Spinach, Broccoli, grapes (his favorite), oranges, sprinkle of granola, strawberries, green beans, acorns, and sunflower seeds. I basically give him 1/2 teaspoon of each & 1 acorn or 3 or 4 sunflower seeds, chopped since his front teeth aren't all the way back in yet. I added Dandelion and Clover today. I'll grab some cabbage and brussels sprouts my next trip to the grocery. He'll fight me over a peanut butter and banana sandwich and pecan spins :dono It's quite funny, but it makes me feel like he is still hungry...and I am extremely worried about it since I've already screwed it up so badly with my own ignorance! Will this diet or close be sufficient to keep him in optimal health?

Thanks,
Ross
<Jax's Mom>

[knightsoul]

I have a question on the healthy pet chart, it now says that acorns are toxic, is this something that was just learned, I used to always see on the other threads to feed them

[farrelli]

There was a wave of deaths this year linked only to acorn consumption:

http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?44354-frozen-acorns-kill-squirrels

Most people now side with caution and don;t offer them.

[amyd30]

CAN ANYONE EMAIL ME THE NUTRICIAN LIST, MY COMPUTER WONT DOWLOAD THEM. heartsfire222@yahoo.com:thankyou

[SammysMom]

Will do it now...hang on.

[harimau]

Hi all, for some reason I can't download the files in the original post. I do have an older copy, but it doesn't contain a listing for mung bean sprouts. We got some for our little plantain today and he adores them. He's been nibbling non-stop all day.

I know they are high in calcium, but not sure about phosphorus.

Any other reason why I shouldn't let him eat as many as he wants?

[CritterMom]

Use as a treat - I did some research and they are actually almost perfectly upside-down - about 1 : 2.5 - 1 part calcium to 2.5 parts phosphorus (if you could flip those they would be perfect!)

They are not TERRIBLE - there are lots that are much, much worse, but I wouldn't use them as a staple food.

[harimau]

Thanks Crittermom, good to know. I'll just give as a treat then. At the moment I'm using papaya as a staple because he's happy to eat a ton of it and it's 4.8:1

It's also abundant, cheap and keeps well in the fridge. Phew.

I've been crushing calcium tablets this week and rolling his treats in it and I must say he started looking better immediately - his fur thickened up and got glossier. If possible he's even lovelier to cuddle!!

[harimau]

Just in case this is ever useful for anyone:

I created this visual shopping list for my husband and pembantu (housekeeper, she can't read). It's too big to attach, but here is the link:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9NfQpM4tYftMnpMMVJUOHJ1S1U/edit?usp=docslist_api

It shows high calcium / low phosphorous fruit and veg that are cheap and easy to find in Asia, with British English and Indonesian names.

It could be useful for anyone living in Asia who needs to feed squirrels.

[island rehabber]

Thank you harimau, this is excellent information! :thankyou:thankyou:) Not sure if everyone can access it via Google, however.....:dono ?

[harimau]

Sorry! I forgot to set it to public. Everyone should be able to see it now :)

[farrelli]

That is s nice guide. :)

[AprilC]

Y'all forgive my ignorance on squirrel nutrition, but the higher the calcium and lower the phosphorus is better in food choices, correct?

[island rehabber]

Y'all forgive my ignorance on squirrel nutrition, but the higher the calcium and lower the phosphorus is better in food choices, correct?

Pretty much -- the ideal ratio is 2:1 -- twice as much calcium as there is phosphorous, in other words. The problem is that so many things squirrels love are full of phosphorous (peanuts, sunflower seeds, corn) it becomes a challenge to get them on a healthy diet that does not include those things. :tilt

[Kristi S]

There were a couple questions about spinach. The potential problem with it is that is contains oxalates, which in large enough quantities interfere with the uptake of Ca. However, my understanding is that rodent digestion can handle such secondary plant compounds as oxalates, tannins (found in acorns), and a variety of other compounds that would be toxic to other animals.

Where did the 2:1 recommended ratio of Ca to P come from? Anyone know?

I was thinking yesterday about the ratios so commonly used to decide what to feed, and it occurred to me that a ratio might not give the whole picture. Take for example a comparison of 4 nuts. The ratio of Ca:P is

Almonds 1:1.8
Acorns 1:1.9
Walnuts 1:8.4
Hazelnuts 1:5.4

Then look at the ratios of actual mg in 125 g of each

Almonds 330:607
Acorns 51:102
Walnuts 76:641
Hazelnuts 142:366

If, for the sake of simplicity, we assume that the ratio needed by the body is 1:1, we can look at it in terms of a subtraction problem. For instance, eating 125 g of almonds leads to 607-330= 277 mg "excess" P. Likewise, acorns have 51 mg "extra" P, walnuts 565 mg, and hazelnuts 224 mg. If you look at it this way, acorns are by far preferable to walnuts, and even preferable to almonds, which have almost the same ratio of Ca:P (all other things being equal, and with the idea of minimizing excess P). Of course, the actual ratio of Ca:P needed by a growing squirrel is not going to be 1:1 - that's only for demonstration, but the outcome would only be more obvious if a ratio of 2:1 were used.

Does that make sense, given the assumptions?

Just to make things more complicated, apparently some of the phosphorus in foods such as nuts, legumes and grains is stored in a form called phytic acid, and it unavailable to digestion by animals with certain types of digestive systems, including rodents.

In reality the metabolism of Ca and P is very complex and dependent on many factors, and animals vary in their needs through their life. As I understand it, some excess P is fine as long as there is plenty of Ca; excess gets excreted. So if a food having 100 mg of Ca and 150 mg of P might actually be a better option than a food with 5 mg of Ca and 3 mg of P. Bodies need P just as they do Ca; the difference is that P is found in more foods.

I'm kind of just throwing this out as something to spur discussion and see what others think. Comments?



(Hard to know whether this is applicable to squirrels, but according to this article http://www.phosphatesfacts.org/pdfs/PhosphorusEssential.pdf, the idea that excess P interferes with Ca metabolism in humans was theoretical, and has been disproved. And this article http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK109813/ suggests that, also for humans:
In the past, considerable emphasis was placed on the Ca:P ratio of the diet (for example, Chinn, 1981), particularly in infant nutrition (for example, Fomon and Nelson, 1993). The concept has some utility under conditions of rapid growth (in which a large share of the ingested nutrients is converted into tissue mass), but it has no demonstrable relevance in adults. An optimal ratio ensures that, if intake of one nutrient is adequate for growth, the intake of the associated nutrient will also be adequate without a wasteful surplus of one or the other. However, the ratio by itself is of severely limited value, in that there is little merit to having the ratio “correct” if the absolute quantities of both nutrients are insufficient to support optimal growth. )

[Nancy in New York]

There were a couple questions about spinach. The potential problem with it is that is contains oxalates, which in large enough quantities interfere with the uptake of Ca. However, my understanding is that rodent digestion can handle such secondary plant compounds as oxalates, tannins (found in acorns), and a variety of other compounds that would be toxic to other animals.

Where did the 2:1 recommended ratio of Ca to P come from? Anyone know?

I was thinking yesterday about the ratios so commonly used to decide what to feed, and it occurred to me that a ratio might not give the whole picture. Take for example a comparison of 4 nuts. The ratio of Ca:P is

Almonds 1:1.8
Acorns 1:1.9
Walnuts 1:8.4
Hazelnuts 1:5.4

Then look at the ratios of actual mg in 125 g of each

Almonds 330:607
Acorns 51:102
Walnuts 76:641
Hazelnuts 142:366

If, for the sake of simplicity, we assume that the ratio needed by the body is 1:1, we can look at it in terms of a subtraction problem. For instance, eating 125 g of almonds leads to 607-330= 277 mg "excess" P. Likewise, acorns have 51 mg "extra" P, walnuts 565 mg, and hazelnuts 224 mg. If you look at it this way, acorns are by far preferable to walnuts, and even preferable to almonds, which have almost the same ratio of Ca:P (all other things being equal, and with the idea of minimizing excess P). Of course, the actual ratio of Ca:P needed by a growing squirrel is not going to be 1:1 - that's only for demonstration, but the outcome would only be more obvious if a ratio of 2:1 were used.

Does that make sense, given the assumptions?

Just to make things more complicated, apparently some of the phosphorus in foods such as nuts, legumes and grains is stored in a form called phytic acid, and it unavailable to digestion by animals with certain types of digestive systems, including rodents.

In reality the metabolism of Ca and P is very complex and dependent on many factors, and animals vary in their needs through their life. As I understand it, some excess P is fine as long as there is plenty of Ca; excess gets excreted. So if a food having 100 mg of Ca and 150 mg of P might actually be a better option than a food with 5 mg of Ca and 3 mg of P. Bodies need P just as they do Ca; the difference is that P is found in more foods.

I'm kind of just throwing this out as something to spur discussion and see what others think. Comments?



(Hard to know whether this is applicable to squirrels, but according to this article http://www.phosphatesfacts.org/pdfs/PhosphorusEssential.pdf, the idea that excess P interferes with Ca metabolism in humans was theoretical, and has been disproved. And this article http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK109813/ suggests that, also for humans:
In the past, considerable emphasis was placed on the Ca:P ratio of the diet (for example, Chinn, 1981), particularly in infant nutrition (for example, Fomon and Nelson, 1993). The concept has some utility under conditions of rapid growth (in which a large share of the ingested nutrients is converted into tissue mass), but it has no demonstrable relevance in adults. An optimal ratio ensures that, if intake of one nutrient is adequate for growth, the intake of the associated nutrient will also be adequate without a wasteful surplus of one or the other. However, the ratio by itself is of severely limited value, in that there is little merit to having the ratio “correct” if the absolute quantities of both nutrients are insufficient to support optimal growth. )


May I suggest that you go to this site and ask the site's owner these questions over there.
He is the author of this thread, so perhaps he can better answer you.
www.squirrelrehabilitation.com

You have already posted a link to some of his opinions in another thread here, so I assume
you know him well enough to ask him.

[Kristi S]

Thanks, Nancy! I'll do that.

[Kristi S]

I just found an interesting research paper suggesting that squirrels avoid foods with high added oxalates. Which suggests they aren't good for them. So, I withdraw the comment about spinach being OK. Sorry!

[Kristi S]

You have already posted a link to some of his opinions in another thread here, so I assume
you know him well enough to ask him.
Last edited by Nancy in New York; 03-04-2015 at 09:09 PM.

Actually, I don't know him at all. I wrote, but never heard back from him. In the absence of his comments, maybe people here have something to say. Does what I wrote make sense? It could be applied to fruits and veggies, too, of course.

[Jacy]

A chayote is a really ugly green, wrinkled, pear-shaped member of the squash/gourd family. They are known by several different names, including vegetable pear. :) You have to wonder who first decided it was something edible!

They look similar to bitter melon and coming from an Asian family it's hard to tell some of the Asian variety Veggies and western grown ones apart. There are certain ones that have only Asian names. I wonder how the Chayote taste? Bitter Melon, or Fu Gua is used in stir fry and bitter!

[Squire]

Hi everybody!

We found an orphan grey three weeks ago, he walked with a hunched back, and so weak that he could not climb a tree. He was literally skin and bones, he was around 8 weeks old...

The temperature here was close to freezing that evening, so we were doubtful he would have survived the night. Anyhow we took him home, and gave him the best care we could, and he has flourished since, though still not having the "padding" all the other squirrels nearby have - I have been a keen, daily, "squirrel stalker" for a couple of years now - so I do know the squirrels in the neighborhood well, and there were/are no nursing mom, or baby his age. How he appeared that day in the condition he was in remains a complete mystery. We bought him a sizeable cage like the one they sell at Henry's, and plan to keep him at least until late spring.

I would be very interested in any considered opinion on the earlier questions asked by others in this thread and attached below, because I have noticed the same contradictions - baby cakes is a wonderful little boy, and particularly loves black kale, mushroom and zucchini, and thankfully he is also happy with rodent food (which I have picked carefully based on the advice here and elsewhere). Naturally I am concerned about so many vegs being both "good" and "bad", entirely depending on whether they are in this sticky, or the other sticky at https://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?44440-Healthy-Diet-for-Pet-Squirrels

Thanks in advance!


This confuses me now...are you saying mushrooms are not good for squirrels???? as they are on the healthy food for squirrels chart & i give my squirrel button mushrooms as in the wild they would eat wild fungi/mushrooms.


some of the stuff on here says its ok to give to the squirrels but on the healthy diet chart the things on this chat are not ok... and visa virsa can some one explane to me about this ... is confusing me


I was wondering the same thing Foamy. Like collard greens and spinach are good on the nutrition chart but on the diet chart it says to avoid. Can someone please explain. I dont want to feed my Squirt something that he should not eat. thanks

296489

[Spanky]

I think the key is "everything in moderation".

Well, there are exceptions... like "commercial" squirrel / rodent block (give tons of that). But that does not apply to Henry's Healthy Block since that is a "supplement" and 2 - 3 per day is the right balance.

See?!?!? EVERYTHING can be confusing!

I don't think mushrooms are on the "bad list", but WILD mushrooms are on the bad list... and I think it is simply because there are so many poisonous wild varieties that the idea is to encourage feeding store bought mushrooms as a precaution to anyone mistakenly feeding a poisonous wild variety. Same with acorns... fresh, healthy acorns are obviously not poisonous but they can be too easily contaminated with a fungus that IS deadly. We have seen this happen with frozen acorns or ones picked up off the ground... but we'll never know if they were bad before they were frozen or if somehow freezing them had an ill affect? So we tell people not to feed acorns out of an abundance of caution... these little captive ones tend to eat what we provide them, so we have to be diligent in what we give them!

Ditto things like bell peppers, which are a part of the nightshade family. Some highly respected squirrel experts include bell peppers in their squirrel diets, but in moderation! Spinach is the same way... in moderation, it's fine but too much can become harmful .

Keep in mind that there are very few "year round" food supplies available to wild squirrels. Their diets constantly change as mother nature changes what is available with each new season, which seems to be a big key to wilds staying healthy and not suffering from things like MBD. So we should do our best to provide a wide variety and change things up regularly and avoid falling into a routine where we provide the same food every day... except for the block! :thumbsup

Your little one is adorable!

[Mel1959]

:goodpost:goodpost

[CritterMom]

The "BAD" and "GOOD" designation on these food charts relate to the calcium to phosphorus levels ONLY. If they are at or close to the 2 : 1 ratio, they are designated as "good" and if the phosphorus is way off the charts and the calcium is low, they are designated "bad."

Lots of foods have great benefits but have terrible calcium to phosphorus levels that you need to be aware of. Flax seed has many health benefits but is also the highest natural sours of phosphorus you can eat. Mushrooms have Vitamin D but are also high in phosphorus. The insects like meal and wax worms that flyer people give are very high in phosphorus - and is why people dust them in calcium powder.

So when you read the charts, remember they are looking ONLY at the ca : ph levels, nothing else.

[Azure15]

I've updated the chart to include some missing foods. Chart 2 is in alphabetical order, listing milligrams of calcium to milligrams of phosphorus per 100 grams of food, along with the ratios. Chart 3 ranks them highest to lowest as far as ratio of calcium to phosphorus. This is for informative purposes only, not to incite debate on what foods have what (e.g. pumpkin seeds). In addition, if anyone inclined to do the math, he or she can weigh one gram of food "A" with "X" number of milligrams of phosphorus and calcium (even micrograms) and balance out "X" number of grams of a food with more milligrams of calcium and phosphorus to achieve the 2:1 balance (assuming your squirrel will eat all of both). I personally don't have that kind of ambition or time, so I wanted to know which foods had the higher calcium to phosphorus ratios (regardless of amount of milligrams of each mineral) so that when I went grocery shopping I could lean toward the healthiest choices. My designations of "Good," "Risky," and so forth are completely arbitrary, and you can make your own decisions about individual foods, but I tried to classify for general categories. I hope this helps some of you.

PS: IR, if a "sticky" means it's one of the post always at the beginning of a thread, I humbly offer that this might be included.

So..for clarity..all these foods on these 2 lists are good to feed greys?

[Diggie's Friend]

Most definitely more to it than (Ca:P) ratio, that is moreover a guide. This is because it is incomplete without including the Calcium:Oxalates ratio of foods also. From a large body of research over 80 years it has been determined that sources that are higher in oxalic acid than calcium, are actually empties, making calcium Ca:P highly inverted, like one source that is in the plant positive to in the body (0:72) (Ca:P) that is considerably worse than the slightly inverted Ca:P ratio sources are. For what appears to be good source of calcium can't deliver it to the body.

This is what Kohman found in his research back in 1939 and has continued to be reconfirmed in more recent rat research since. Since this time our soils have continued to drop in calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium, being damaged by earlier poor farming practices, followed by the addition of nitrogen fertilizers, then pesticides and herbicides, and lastly in this century, GMOs and Glyphosates. As a result many of the formerly positive Ca:P ratios that vegetables once had have become inverted, and the oxalates have also risen making many once healthy vegetable sources no longer able to provide calcium to the diet.

I've been working on a new chart for sometime, which includes many more sources and shows not just the Ca:P ratio, but also the amount of calcium and phosphorus and oxalates levels, along with the adjusted Ca:Ox ratio. This will make it eEasier to avoid the 'weeds' (those sources that are very high in ratio of (Ca:P) in the plant, but provide no calcium to the body once digested and worse lower calcium in the foods that they are digested with) at a glance.

The good news is that for many sources, (but not all), which would not provide bioavailable calcium when consumed raw, boiling reduces the oxalic acid making most of the calcium that they contain bioavailable. One of these is broccoli, which noly lowers in calcium content by a very small amount, all of which otherwise would not be bioavailable raw anyway. For the greens that are good sources of bioavailable calcium, like some kales, when frozen then boiled it increases calcium by volume measure. Boiling also makes some vegetables more digestible, and lowers their pH which can cause the urine pH to be alkaline that lends to calcium loss instead of gain.

[Thomas]

Thank you. This has been very help full.

[Diggie's Friend]

Here are more studies on this same issue (see pdf files)

[Vocaldiva1212]

I asked one one of my other post but noone has responded so I thought id try here anyone no if I can give my peralized five to six week g
round squirrel crushed up banana flavor cuttlebone if I grind it up really fine will it help him all he's been doing is sleeping pretty much

[Mel1959]

Are you trying to treat him with calcium supplement? What for? You can do that with tums or straight calcium carbonate or citrate...no added vitamin D.

What’s his story? How long have you had him? What are you feeding him? Or if he’s weaned, what formula did you feed? If he’s weaned does he eat a rodent block like Henrys or Harlan Teklad?

I believe ground squirrels’ diets are somewhat different than grays and I’m not familiar with them. A background will help us understand what’s going on.

Sorry your post got overlooked.

[Vocaldiva1212]

Hi a dog threw him up in the air eight days ago he is peralized I've had him for five days now he looks about five six weeks and I kept hearing about the calcium if he's peralized and all the good stuff that he needs well he's kicking his feet sometimes when I stimulated him I thought maybe I could nurse his bones back with it but if tums is the way to go I'll return the cuttle bones today do u think there's any chance he may not be peralized he doesn't move much at all I'm still finding the foods he needs he's on esbolac but it'd hard to get him to eat any liquid he just doesn't want it and curls in a ball he only wants banana lol witch I now no is a treat not a food oops but you guys are really helpful I appreciate any ideas and advice u have for me and nugget .

[Newbiewnc]

This seems like an amazing list of information. Thank you so much. I am now going to ask a very uneducated question. I’m new to all of this so could you explain what the calcium to phosphorus ratio means for squirrels nutrition. I appreciate the schooling.

[CritterMom]

It mostly has to do with avoiding metabolic bone disease. The idea is to maintain a general ratio in the entire diet of 2 parts calcium to every one part of phosphorus. This can be more challenging than you think - there are WAY more high phosphorus foods than high calcium foods. It is not helped by the fact that the things they LOVE like corn, nuts, sunflower seeds, etc., are all very high in phosphorus.

Metabolic bone disease is awful and we see it ALL THE TIME. Many people mistakenly start their squirrels on a high phosporus diet of seeds and nuts once they wean from formula, which has the proper balance. Then within a month or so they come to the board because their squirrel is suddenly paralyzed in the back end.

As the calcium in the body goes down, the bones, which are a source of calcium begin to be "cannibalized" for lack of a better word - the body leaches the calcium from the bones which become weaker and weaker until they begin to fracture. Calcium is also involved in proper muscle operation - low calcium affects whether or not they contract properly and that is vital even for digestion - muscles contracting is what moves food through the digestive tract. At the end stage, MBD (metabolic bone disease) causes seizures and then death.

I saw your other post and the HHBs are EXCELLENT but you need to also remove the sunflower seeds from the treat mix you are giving. If your squirrel actually had MBD we would be having you supplementing with high doses of calcium and switching your diet to the HHBs so you are in pretty good shape other than the sunflower seeds. The HHBs were actually designed with MBD in mind - the person who owns Henrys is a TSB member and Henry was her squirrel.

[Newbiewnc]

Thank you again. The MBD is really scary and that’s what I want to avoid at all costs.
I think better if I just scrap this fiesta mix. I was trying not to waste it because I have a whole bag but it sounds not too good. Should I trash it or can animals in my woods benefit from it. I dont want to make any critters sick. I’ve got some more Henry blocks on the way and also ordered envivo rodent food that was recommended from another post. Just a little slower delivery I guess due to all this virus stuff. I’ll keep checking back for any other suggestions. This site is really a godsend as I’m trying to learn to be a good squirrel momma.

[CritterMom]

Thank you again. The MBD is really scary and that’s what I want to avoid at all costs.
I think better if I just scrap this fiesta mix. I was trying not to waste it because I have a whole bag but it sounds not too good. Should I trash it or can animals in my woods benefit from it. I dont want to make any critters sick. I’ve got some more Henry blocks on the way and also ordered envivo rodent food that was recommended from another post. Just a little slower delivery I guess due to all this virus stuff. I’ll keep checking back for any other suggestions. This site is really a godsend as I’m trying to learn to be a good squirrel momma.

I am sure your wilds will love it. They don't depend on you for 100% of their diet so they are also eating things that will balance this stuff. The envigo is good stuff too. Your squirrel won't like them as much as the HHBs probably but they are very hard, and so good at keeping teeth in good shape.

[Beecheykeen]

I've updated the chart to include some missing foods. Chart 2 is in alphabetical order, listing milligrams of calcium to milligrams of phosphorus per 100 grams of food, along with the ratios. Chart 3 ranks them highest to lowest as far as ratio of calcium to phosphorus. This is for informative purposes only, not to incite debate on what foods have what (e.g. pumpkin seeds). In addition, if anyone inclined to do the math, he or she can weigh one gram of food "A" with "X" number of milligrams of phosphorus and calcium (even micrograms) and balance out "X" number of grams of a food with more milligrams of calcium and phosphorus to achieve the 2:1 balance (assuming your squirrel will eat all of both). I personally don't have that kind of ambition or time, so I wanted to know which foods had the higher calcium to phosphorus ratios (regardless of amount of milligrams of each mineral) so that when I went grocery shopping I could lean toward the healthiest choices. My designations of "Good," "Risky," and so forth are completely arbitrary, and you can make your own decisions about individual foods, but I tried to classify for general categories. I hope this helps some of you.

PS: IR, if a "sticky" means it's one of the post always at the beginning of a thread, I humbly offer that this might be included.

Hey I have a question, I do not have a phone right now, and that is how I previously looked at these very handy charts. Well now I'm just on laptop till further notice, and when I open the charts, microsoft keeps trying to get me to buy OpenOffice. Is there a way I can view these without office? I'd even be happy to get charts 2 and 3 emailed in a way I can read them. :grin2

[CritterMom]

Hey I have a question, I do not have a phone right now, and that is how I previously looked at these very handy charts. Well now I'm just on laptop till further notice, and when I open the charts, microsoft keeps trying to get me to buy OpenOffice. Is there a way I can view these without office? I'd even be happy to get charts 2 and 3 emailed in a way I can read them. :grin2

Go to the first page of this thread, to post #17. One of the members converted them to .pdf files.

[meliscanan88]

Thank you so muchThis will be very helpful to me.

[Dinomacc]

So ideally you only feed the foods in the good and fair columns?