Easier, quicker, cheaper rodent block?

[PBluejay2]

This is more or less a continuation of my previous post on calcium/phosphorous ratios, and I hesitate to post out of fear of a possible reaction, but as I was doing a comparison anaylsis of Esbilac and Fox Valley formula (not finished yet), something occurred to me. If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be quickly corrected. But I made a batch of less-than-one-year block this way today (before I saw there had been changes already). I wanted at least to attempt to have some evidence before I proffered this hyposthesis. In short, they turned out successfully. I'm happy to report that 13 out of 15 squirrels (12 under one year, 3 over a year) ate at least some, 2 acted like the blocks were manna from heaven, and only 2 were completely uninterested.

What occurred to me as I was evaluating the formulas (also having the squirrel blocks in the back of my mind) was that, basically, many of the more expensive ingredients in the squirrel block recipe existed to concoct formula--the milk protein (whey) and the vitamins--and that laboratories (Pet Ag and Fox Valley) had already done this for me, including many more nutrients than exist in the block recipe. It also occurred to me that most of the other ingredients were simply to make the blocks more palatable/attractive.

Therefore, as an experiment, I made a batch of blocks today using Fox Valley 20/50 formula instead of the whey and vitamins but followed the rest of the recipe exactly (the recipe before today's posting). The only change I made was adding one gram (1000 mg) of pure calcium carbonate to compensate for the 458 grams of unbalanced phosphorus added by the pecans, walnuts, and peanut butter (which I'm glad to see has been reduced in the 12/8 recipe) to achieve an approximate 2:1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus.

I buy Fox Valley formula in 20lb. buckets for around 180.00 (including shipment), and Esbilac can be found even a little cheaper at the same volume, and I have to trust that the formula has all the correct nutrients (vitamins, minerals, etc.) for squirrels (don't we all?)--infant, adolescent, and convalescing adults. My five-pound tub of whey protein cost over fifty dollars, and I'm sure all the vitamins for the recipe would inflate the overall cost for ingredients way over what the pre-made formula itself costs.

My point is that, unless there is good evidence that formula is not a good substitute for mixing and grinding up all the whey and vitamins (and I have no doubt my friend 4sqwerlz will come up with some), using commercial/scientifically researched formula that is designed for squirrel nutrition rather than basically trying to make our own through trial and error is a more cost efficient, easier, and perhaps safer way to go.

Now I'm going to hide under the covers.

[PBluejay2]

The only change I made was adding one gram (1000 mg) of pure calcium carbonate to compensate for the 458 grams of unbalanced phosphorus added by the pecans, walnuts, and peanut butter (which I'm glad to see has been reduced in the 12/8 recipe) to achieve an approximate 2:1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus.


This should have read "to compensate for the 458 mg of unbalanced phosphorus added by the pecans, walnuts, and peanut butter.

Back to the covers . . .

[4skwerlz]

This is more or less a continuation of my previous post on calcium/phosphorous ratios, and I hesitate to post out of fear of a possible reaction, but as I was doing a comparison anaylsis of Esbilac and Fox Valley formula (not finished yet), something occurred to me. If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be quickly corrected. But I made a batch of less-than-one-year block this way today (before I saw there had been changes already). I wanted at least to attempt to have some evidence before I proffered this hyposthesis. In short, they turned out successfully. I'm happy to report that 13 out of 15 squirrels (12 under one year, 3 over a year) ate at least some, 2 acted like the blocks were manna from heaven, and only 2 were completely uninterested.

What occurred to me as I was evaluating the formulas (also having the squirrel blocks in the back of my mind) was that, basically, many of the more expensive ingredients in the squirrel block recipe existed to concoct formula--the milk protein (whey) and the vitamins--and that laboratories (Pet Ag and Fox Valley) had already done this for me, including many more nutrients than exist in the block recipe. It also occurred to me that most of the other ingredients were simply to make the blocks more palatable/attractive.

Therefore, as an experiment, I made a batch of blocks today using Fox Valley 20/50 formula instead of the whey and vitamins but followed the rest of the recipe exactly (the recipe before today's posting). The only change I made was adding one gram (1000 mg) of pure calcium carbonate to compensate for the 458 grams of unbalanced phosphorus added by the pecans, walnuts, and peanut butter (which I'm glad to see has been reduced in the 12/8 recipe) to achieve an approximate 2:1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus.

I buy Fox Valley formula in 20lb. buckets for around 180.00 (including shipment), and Esbilac can be found even a little cheaper at the same volume, and I have to trust that the formula has all the correct nutrients (vitamins, minerals, etc.) for squirrels (don't we all?)--infant, adolescent, and convalescing adults. My five-pound tub of whey protein cost over fifty dollars, and I'm sure all the vitamins for the recipe would inflate the overall cost for ingredients way over what the pre-made formula itself costs.

My point is that, unless there is good evidence that formula is not a good substitute for mixing and grinding up all the whey and vitamins (and I have no doubt my friend 4sqwerlz will come up with some), using commercial/scientifically researched formula that is designed for squirrel nutrition rather than basically trying to make our own through trial and error is a more cost efficient, easier, and perhaps safer way to go.

Now I'm going to hide under the covers.

It would be nice if you could buy "whey protein premixed with all the vitamins/minerals needed by a squirrel" (in other words, Esbilac/Fox Valley formula) and then use that to make the squirrel blocks. Unfortunately, that's not the case. First, Esbilac is designed for dogs, not squirrels. I haven't yet written the company to see if they will give me the mgs of all nutrients, which is not on the label, but I have researched dog nutrition pretty extensively, and their requirements are very different. For one thing, the calcium requirement of dogs/puppies is much lower than that of squirrels. (I don't know if you have a milk formula specifically for squirrels, as rehabbing babies isn't my department.) But I seriously doubt the nutrients in these formulas would work for a lifetime for a captive squirrel. For one thing, you'd have to adjust the protein/fat ratios as the squirrel got older, as the requirements are quite different at different ages. And then when you reduced the amount of formula in order to do this, you'd also be reducing the amounts of other nutrients, which you would not want to do. The formulas contain a lot of fat for growing babies, and then when you add nuts and peanut butter, the final result would certainly be too much fat. However, it might be fine for rehab/release squirrels, which would presumably be less than 1 year old.

As for Esbilac/Fox Valley having more nutrients, that's not exactly true. The list of added vitamins in the recipe isn't the whole story, as there are many nutrients in the ingredients as well. Below is a list of the nutrients in squirrel blocks. All of the essential nutrients are at over 100% of the required amounts. Also, the calcium/phosphorus ratio is perfectly balanced, including a little extra calcium to make up for the extra phosphorus in the nuts and treats that will be fed:
63957
(The ingredients with zero amounts are "micronutrients" which are found in normal foods in ample amounts and need not be supplemented.)

As to the ingredients in the squirrel blocks being there only for palatability, actually I was lucky there, as the nuts add very important nutrition (such as Omega-3 and Omega-6), and with a zero glycemic load, plus being part of their natural diet, they are truly the perfect "base" for a squirrel food IMO. The only drawback is their cost, though still less than the protein, which is the most expensive ingredient no matter what form you use.

As for the cost, you paid 180.00 for 20 pounds of formula. I pay 65.00 for 10 pounds of the whey protein, online at Allstar Health. The other vitamins are fairly cheap (literally a few cents per batch), especially when purchased online.

Finally, the squirrel block formula was reviewed and approved by some of the top animal nutritionists in the world. And it was agreed they were adequate nutritionally for captive squirrels, and superior to commercial rodent blocks because of the low glycemic load. The only reason they will never be made commercially is because of the cost of the high-quality ingredients used, instead of the junk they put in commercial rodent blocks.

I truly hope I don't sound too defensive here. I know you aren't trying to attack the blocks, but to come up with an alternative that works for rehabbers. More power to you! If you can make up something for your rehab/release squirrels, I'm sure they will work fine. But for pet squirrels, it is important that the nutrients match the requirements for their closest relative for which that information is known, i.e., the rat. I think there's almost a zero percent chance that a formula designed for dogs will match that. So I just wanted to put that info out there.

Keep on trucking, PBluejay. :thumbsup

[PBluejay2]

It would be nice if you could buy "whey protein premixed with all the vitamins/minerals needed by a squirrel" (in other words, Esbilac/Fox Valley formula) and then use that to make the squirrel blocks. Unfortunately, that's not the case. First, Esbilac is designed for dogs, not squirrels. I haven't yet written the company to see if they will give me the mgs of all nutrients, which is not on the label, but I have researched dog nutrition pretty extensively, and their requirements are very different. For one thing, the calcium requirement of dogs/puppies is much lower than that of squirrels. (I don't know if you have a milk formula specifically for squirrels, as rehabbing babies isn't my department.) But I seriously doubt the nutrients in these formulas would work for a lifetime for a captive squirrel. For one thing, you'd have to adjust the protein/fat ratios as the squirrel got older, as the requirements are quite different at different ages. And then when you reduced the amount of formula in order to do this, you'd also be reducing the amounts of other nutrients, which you would not want to do. The formulas contain a lot of fat for growing babies, and then when you add nuts and peanut butter, the final result would certainly be too much fat. However, it might be fine for rehab/release squirrels, which would presumably be less than 1 year old.

As for Esbilac/Fox Valley having more nutrients, that's not exactly true. The list of added vitamins in the recipe isn't the whole story, as there are many nutrients in the ingredients as well. Below is a list of the nutrients in squirrel blocks. All of the essential nutrients are at over 100% of the required amounts. Also, the calcium/phosphorus ratio is perfectly balanced, including a little extra calcium to make up for the extra phosphorus in the nuts and treats that will be fed:
63957
(The ingredients with zero amounts are "micronutrients" which are found in normal foods in ample amounts and need not be supplemented.)

As to the ingredients in the squirrel blocks being there only for palatability, actually I was lucky there, as the nuts add very important nutrition (such as Omega-3 and Omega-6), and with a zero glycemic load, plus being part of their natural diet, they are truly the perfect "base" for a squirrel food IMO. The only drawback is their cost, though still less than the protein, which is the most expensive ingredient no matter what form you use.

As for the cost, you paid 180.00 for 20 pounds of formula. I pay 65.00 for 10 pounds of the whey protein, online at Allstar Health. The other vitamins are fairly cheap (literally a few cents per batch), especially when purchased online.

Finally, the squirrel block formula was reviewed and approved by some of the top animal nutritionists in the world. And it was agreed they were adequate nutritionally for captive squirrels, and superior to commercial rodent blocks because of the low glycemic load. The only reason they will never be made commercially is because of the cost of the high-quality ingredients used, instead of the junk they put in commercial rodent blocks.

I truly hope I don't sound too defensive here. I know you aren't trying to attack the blocks, but to come up with an alternative that works for rehabbers. More power to you! If you can make up something for your rehab/release squirrels, I'm sure they will work fine. But for pet squirrels, it is important that the nutrients match the requirements for their closest relative for which that information is known, i.e., the rat. I think there's almost a zero percent chance that a formula designed for dogs will match that. So I just wanted to put that info out there.

Keep on trucking, PBluejay. :thumbsup


I knew I'd get a dissertation from you, 4sqwerlz (I ventured out from under the covers), and I want you to know that I totally admire everything you've done to research and develop your squirrel blocks, but I too have to find things out for myself, and yes, Esbilac is designed for pups (but it's the most common diet chosen for baby squirrels whereas Fox Valley is supposedly made specifically for squirrels), and this is not an issue about "rehabbers," I don't think (especially because I have three who are permanent residents) but about what is actually best for the squirrels. As I said in an earlier post, I'm not a nutrionist and have had no formal education in nutrition (nor have I seen any credentials that you are or have either). I'm just weighing the facts as I see them. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly accept the fact if it means I can better take care of my charges. As far as the blocks being approved by some of the "top animal nutrionists in the world" (please tell me so I may contact them myself), that's great, but as far as I know, no real studies have been done on the specific requirements for squirrels, only rats, and I liken that to someone establishing or approving a proper diet for me (human) on what my closest relative (ape) might need. But yes, you do sound somewhat defensive, and until you can lose that defensiveness, I cannot and will not trust your findings or "recipes" completely/without skepticism. I may use them, but not without doubt. So far, you haven't given me (or anyone else) any concrete/verifiable facts/numbers/evidence as to why using premade formula is not as good as making the formula you've prescribed when making your blocks or how you came up with your amounts of what additives to include (as an aside, I really question the peanut butter, and your defense of pecans and such as having Omega 3 and 6 is the same rationalization many of us use to feed these calcium-sucking foods (that they love) to them at all). If you want to fight/defend yourself and your recipe (which changes often, and why--if you're so certain?), I surrender--you win. If you want to keep an open mind and discuss with/learn from each other, I'd like to think I could be a good colleague. Jack

[PBluejay2]

I apologize for that last post. 4sqwerlz is the one to listen to. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned.

[Bugsie]

:devil A little heated:nono Hi PBluejay 2, wow that last post could hurts some feelings :shakehead I admire everything that you and all the other rehabbers do to save and rehablilitate so many squirrels:bowdown . I just can't imagine putting all the money, time and sleepless nights into something that you graciously return to the wild. I have one NR and everyday I think what have I got myself into :skwredup I also admire 4Skwerlz, she isn't just trying to save a couple of squirrels a year. She is trying to save every squirrel. She is slaving away in the kitchen to help ensure that squirrels with kitchen challenged moms(me for sure)are providing what she believes to be the best nutrition possible for our fuzzy terrorists at a cost that she couldn't possibly make a profit, but out of the goodness of her heart. Anyways I realize you appologized and I am glad because I would hate for 2 people who really have the same goal to have hurt feelings. Ok I will get off here and mind my own business:hidechair

[4skwerlz]

I knew I'd get a dissertation from you, 4sqwerlz (I ventured out from under the covers), and I want you to know that I totally admire everything you've done to research and develop your squirrel blocks, but I too have to find things out for myself, and yes, Esbilac is designed for pups (but it's the most common diet chosen for baby squirrels whereas Fox Valley is supposedly made specifically for squirrels), and this is not an issue about "rehabbers," I don't think (especially because I have three who are permanent residents) but about what is actually best for the squirrels. As I said in an earlier post, I'm not a nutrionist and have had no formal education in nutrition (nor have I seen any credentials that you are or have either). I'm just weighing the facts as I see them. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly accept the fact if it means I can better take care of my charges. As far as the blocks being approved by some of the "top animal nutrionists in the world" (please tell me so I may contact them myself), that's great, but as far as I know, no real studies have been done on the specific requirements for squirrels, only rats, and I liken that to someone establishing or approving a proper diet for me (human) on what my closest relative (ape) might need. But yes, you do sound somewhat defensive, and until you can lose that defensiveness, I cannot and will not trust your findings or "recipes" completely/without skepticism. I may use them, but not without doubt. So far, you haven't given me (or anyone else) any concrete/verifiable facts/numbers/evidence as to why using premade formula is not as good as making the formula you've prescribed when making your blocks or how you came up with your amounts of what additives to include (as an aside, I really question the peanut butter, and your defense of pecans and such as having Omega 3 and 6 is the same rationalization many of us use to feed these calcium-sucking foods (that they love) to them at all). If you want to fight/defend yourself and your recipe (which changes often, and why--if you're so certain?), I surrender--you win. If you want to keep an open mind and discuss with/learn from each other, I'd like to think I could be a good colleague. Jack

Sorry for the dissertation. You give me one, I give you one back.:D There is absolutely no need for anyone to get upset over this. I don't mind in the least when people question the work I've done. You had questions; I was trying to give you the answers.

First, I admire your attitude that you need to "find things out for yourself." I feel exactly the same way. It is truly the heart of research, and the start of all great discoveries. So rock on.

Second, I'm not a nutritionist, as everyone knows, though I do have some education in the field, and was a science writer for many years. My interest in nutrition goes back to the 80's, when I wrote my first paper on "Diet and Cancer" back when it was controversial to think that things like anti-oxidants could have important health benefits. I'm published in peer-reviewed journals, but not in nutrition. All this means is that I'm comfortable working with numbers, and can read and sift through a scientific article without my head exploding. Anyhow, this isn't about our credentials; as far as I'm concerned you're just as qualified as I am to work on improving nutrition for our squirrels.

As far as the blocks being approved, I don't think you were a member then, but there are a number of old threads on TSB that describe the process of developing the blocks. We were very fortunate to have one of the co-authors of "Nutrient Requirements of Laboratory Animals" take an interest in our project. And he did draw together a meeting of top folks, including someone from Mazuri, a specialist in zoo nutrition, and a person he described as "probably the top animal nutritionist in the world" to discuss and review the squirrel block recipe. This was luck beyond belief and I'm eternally grateful for it. Probably the only thing you said that "bugs" me a little is the suggestion that I would have made that up....

And you're right, there is no research on squirrel nutritional requirements so rats are the closest thing we've got. I've said that until I'm blue in the face. It is unlikely that we ever will have a definitive RDA for squirrels, as they have little commercial or research value. If anyone has a better idea for what to use I'm all ears.

You said that, "So far, you haven't given me (or anyone else) any concrete/verifiable facts/numbers/evidence as to why using premade formula is not as good as making the formula you've prescribed when making your blocks or how you came up with your amounts of what additives to include" I believe I've been pretty clear about the facts/theories behind the blocks, and what remains unknown. I've tried to be completely transparent throughout the whole process, and bored everyone to tears I'm sure. Again, you weren't onboard during a lot of this. As far as using premade formula to make the blocks, as I mentioned in my last post, a major problem is that formula contains a lot of fat and protein for growing babies because it is fed as 100% of the diet. So when you add in the other ingredients, the fat content will be too high. And if you "dilute" it to reduce fat/protein content, you will be reducing the nutrient totals, and assuming the nutrient totals in the formula are okay to start with--which I doubt--you would want those to remain constant. The only way to find out for sure is to do what I did, and put your recipe into a spreadsheet and see what the nutrient totals are compared with the desired levels and adjust everything until it is correct. First, you need the amounts in mgs of all the nutrients in the formula(s), which I'd be interested to see, myself.

Nuts in themselves aren't "bad"; they simply aren't adequate nutritionally when fed as the majority of the diet. Squirrels need phosphorus too, quite a bit of it. In fact, if there weren't any nuts in the recipe, you'd have to add in some phosphorus. As I mentioned before, there is enough calcium in the formula to balance the total phosphorus, resulting in the correct ratio, with a little extra calcium for insurance.

As for the recipe changing, I hope that attests to an open mind. I'm not "certain" of anything and am always checking, re-checking, and trying to think of improvements. There's quite a bit of wiggle room with some of the nutrient levels, as the RDA represents "minimum requirements" and some (but not all) nutrients can be doubled, tripled, or more, with no problem. One of the remaining uncertainties is how much "extra" to put in the formula as "insurance," which is what the rat block makers do. If you're interested, I can give you the %RDA of all the nutrients in the formula. I tried to achieve at least a 10-30% overage on all the essential nutrients, except in the case of the critical ones, like Vit D.

Anyhow, I hope this addresses some of your concerns, which are understandable considering that the lives of our squirrels are at stake here.