Food Data--Calcium/Phosphorus

[PBluejay2]

If this works, I've attached a food chart listing calcium to phosphorus ratios for fruits, vegetables, and seeds and nuts. I've spent several hours looking up each food on the USDA's website and Bitelog.com. The only chart I had was something I had from Carol Hardee's rehab pamphlet which she borrowed from a book by Frye called A Practical Guide for Feeding Captive Reptiles. Being the inquisitive/suspicious person I am, I decided to look the info up for myself, and I have to warn you that I came across several surprises (for example, cauliflower isn't the 2:1 Ca to Phos ideal but is actually 1:2 Ca to Phos. Avocado, kohlrabi, and others were also shockers. Feel free to check my math and sources, and correct me if/where I'm wrong. Also please suggest additions that I've overlooked. This may change the "Basic Diet" and our thinking quite a bit. It has mine already.

[PBluejay2]

Apparently this didn't go over well?

[4skwerlz]

I'm curious to hear your ideas.....

[Loopy Squirrel]

Wow, some of those are unbelieveable. It makes you wonder if it is even worth giving the squirrels some of these since the ratios are so close. I do give my guys a lot of greens (collard, mustard,etc.) though and they do like them. I have an iguana so whatever she eats that's high in calcium we offer to the squirrels. That looks like it was a lot of work for you. You & 4skwerls have done a lot of nutrition work and it makes it a lot easier for us. Thanks!

[squirrel princess]

I looked at your post right away. :thumbsup However, when it comes to nutrition facts and figures, I'm lost :tilt, so I didn't reply. :sorry I leave that up to the "experts" and then feed Baby whatever I'm told too. :D I did put this chart in my "favorites" so I can get to it when I have any questions. :D

Me Too:rotfl I leave all the work up to Leigh and just give him squirrel cookies:D

[Mookie's Mom]

Thank you for all your work and research. Being a newbie at squirrel nutrition, I do not understand what I should be looking for. Is high cal/low phos better or should it be equal? What is phosphorus and why is the ratio important? I need to know this to use your chart properly. I always want to give Mookie the best and I'm sure this will help with a bit more info. Thanks pbluejay2

[Legomom]

Here's a thread from the flyer board about Cal/Ph ratio:

http://nfsa.us/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4997&p=43180#p43180

Hope this helps! :)

[Charles Chuckles]

Thank you for all your work and research. Being a newbie at squirrel nutrition, I do not understand what I should be looking for. Is high cal/low phos better or should it be equal? What is phosphorus and why is the ratio important? I need to know this to use your chart properly. I always want to give Mookie the best and I'm sure this will help with a bit more info. Thanks pbluejay2
I don't know Mookie's mom...I just know it will suck the calcium out of our little guys bones if it is one way or another but I never can figure out the charts so they are kinda useless to me:thinking
I wish someone would just put up.....These are good/ These are bad:dono

[Mookie's Mom]

Thanks legomom, now it makes more sence to me. I agree Charley Chuckles what's good, what's bad is easier.

[Ardilla]

I'm looking at it. Lots of numbers. I'm not good with numbers. :o

[Charles Chuckles]

Here's a thread from the flyer board about Cal/Ph ratio:

http://nfsa.us/messageboard/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4997&p=43180#p43180

Hope this helps! :)
thank-you Leggomom I printed that out, it states it very clear:thumbsup

[Legomom]

I think the key is more Calcium than Phosphorus. 2:1 ratio is ideal. (Maybe PB could add that tidbit to the file, then it would be in one place? Just a thought.) :D

[PBluejay2]

Thank you for all your work and research. Being a newbie at squirrel nutrition, I do not understand what I should be looking for. Is high cal/low phos better or should it be equal? What is phosphorus and why is the ratio important? I need to know this to use your chart properly. I always want to give Mookie the best and I'm sure this will help with a bit more info. Thanks pbluejay2

Basically, you should choose foods that are closest to a 2:1 calcium/phosphorus ratio. Ignore the milligrams/100 grams next to the food name and look at the next column--the one where the ratio is either x:1.0 or 1.0:x. The number before the colon is amount of calcium; the number after is the amount of phosphorus. So if a food has a ratio of 1.0:3.0, that means for every part calcium it has three parts phosphorus--not so good. Because so many foods have a low calcium to phosphorus ratio, it's best to attempt to use the highest calcium to phosphorus ratio possible, even if the calcium is still lower. Ideally, you should choose foods that, when combined, come close to the 2:1 ratio. For example, if you give your squirrel a one gram chunk of apple (1.0:1.8 calcium to phosphorous) and a one gram chunk of papaya (4.8:1.0 calcium to phosphorus), you'd achieve a 2.1:1.0 calcium to phosphorus ratio in total food--which is about right (This, of course is dependent upon the squirrel eating all of both).

Foods that have an drastic imbalance should be avoided altogether, such as raw corn (1.0:44.5 Ca:Ph), dried yellow corn (1.0:13.8), pine nuts (1:0:35.8). Even with the primary diet being squirrel blocks, it would be difficult to correct the imbalance if these foods are fed regularly. One last note, phosphorus is an essential nutrient, just as is calcium, so the objective is NOT to create a great imbalance either way but to strive for the 2.0:1.0 ratio.

[4skwerlz]

I'll just add a couple of thoughts. One is that although the ratio is important, the amounts of calc/phos in a food, as well as how much of the diet consists of that food, are also important. For example, if something like say a blueberry has 1 mg calc and 2 mg phos, that's the wrong ratio--1:2--but the amounts are so small in mgs and the amount of blueberries you're likely to feed are also so small, that unless you fed that food exclusively, it wouldn't do any harm. The calc/phos ratio becomes very important in a food like corn or nuts when it constitutes the majority of the diet, because then the squirrel wouldn't get enough calcium in his overall diet.

PBluejay, rest assured that all of the foods on the "Healthy Diet" list have been screened for calc/phos ratios, and the "best" foods in each category have been selected (considering the calc/phos ratio and also other factors, like glycemic load and phytate content, which also blocks calcium absorption). Foods with extremely bad ratios, like pine nuts and corn (as you noted); foods with high glycemic loads; and foods with high phytate content (like beans, grains, and spinach) are listed as foods to avoid.

So as long as you feed some kind of rodent block as 75% of the diet and then select foods from the "Healthy Diet" for the rest of the diet, you should be fine. Feeding as much variety as possible also helps keep the diet balanced.

One other note: the recipe of the squirrel blocks creates a slightly better calc/phos ratio than the ideal to make up for any extra nuts and snacks that you feed to your squirrel.

One last thing: the "Healthy Diet" list is being constantly updated, with foods removed or added as we learn more, so PLEASE continue with your research and keep us posted on what you find.

[PBluejay2]

Not trying to horn in on your territory, 4sqwerlz--you're accepted by all on here I think as "the nutritionist," but the "healthy diet," in my opinion needs some revising again. I haven't taken the time to look up all foods listed, but some need reevaluating. A couple of examples: avocado is listed as a "heathly vegetable," which I had always assumed it was (aside from the fat content), but with a 1.0:4.3 calcium to phosphorus ratio (52 mg/100g of phosphorus (the older chart I mentioned listed it as 1.0:1.0), I'm not as enthused about using it as much as I have, and "whole roasted pumpkin seeds" are listed as second in order of preference for "healthy treats" under "nuts," when only pine nuts have a worse ca:ph ratio, and pumpkin seeds have a whopping 1172 mg/100g of phosphorus to 43 mg of calcium. They too will be given exceedingly sparingly from now on in my house, if at all.

I did this research so that I and others could have a sort of "quick reference" when deciding what to buy at the grocery store, not to position myself as any kind of authority. I'm not a nutritionist and have had no formal education in nutrition and, as such, would not be so presumptuous as suggest to others that I am a nutritionist or have "absolutes" regarding the nutrition of any animal, including my own species. I simply tried to present some evidence, evidence that I found was often contrary to what I had previously believed (again, the cauliflower, for example), and yes, what I found will alter at least my grocery list. Peace :peace

[4skwerlz]

Not trying to horn in on your territory, 4sqwerlz--you're accepted by all on here I think as "the nutritionist,"
only for lack of anyone better qualified--and willing to do the research:D

but the "healthy diet," in my opinion needs some revising again. I haven't taken the time to look up all foods listed, but some need reevaluating.
Please do give it a good looking-over. The more eyes the better.... and I'm always anxious to make improvements.

A couple of examples: avocado is listed as a "heathly vegetable," which I had always assumed it was (aside from the fat content), but with a 1.0:4.3 calcium to phosphorus ratio (52 mg/100g of phosphorus (the older chart I mentioned listed it as 1.0:1.0), I'm not as enthused about using it as much as I have,
28 grams (1 ounce) of avocado ("all varieties") has 3.4 mg of calcium/14.6 mg of phosphorus. This brings up my point from my earlier post. Yes, avocado has the wrong ratio, but look at the amounts. 28 grams would be around 1/4 of the meat of an avocado (way more than you're going to ever feed in 1 week, I hope) and we're talking about a few mgs of both nutrients. For comparison, the weekly requirements for calc/phos are 2,500 mg/1,500 mg, respectively. So even though the ratio is wrong, 10 mg of extra phosphorus is a drop in the bucket, nutritionally, within the squirrel's entire diet for the week. The biggest problem with avocados IMO is actually the fat content....something we all have to watch with our pet squirrels.

and "whole roasted pumpkin seeds" are listed as second in order of preference for "healthy treats" under "nuts," when only pine nuts have a worse ca:ph ratio, and pumpkin seeds have a whopping 1172 mg/100g of phosphorus to 43 mg of calcium. They too will be given exceedingly sparingly from now on in my house, if at all.

Now this is something I've been trying to figure out from the beginning. When I was first doing the lists, I found the data on "kernals" and alerted people that pumpkin seeds had a terrible calc/phos ratio. Many people responded that this was wrong, that they were healthy, etc. I did more research and found a discrepancy that I was unable to explain: 28 grams of "whole roasted pumpkin seeds, without salt" have a ratio of 1:1.7 (pretty good for a nut), while "pumpkin seed kernals roasted, without salt" have a ratio of 1:27.3 (like you said, only pine nuts are worse). How can this be? First thought is that when you count in the shell, it changes the ratio because most of the phosphorus is in the kernal. But 28 g of "whole" contain 25.8 mg phos, while 28 g of "kernals" contains 328 mg--nearly 13 times more. This would mean that 13 ounces of whole pumpkin seeds would "shell down" to only 1 ounce. I haven't tried it, but it doesn't seem likely. Interestingly, a google search for "pumpkin seed kernals" yields very little, and apparently they are mainly used for commercial uses--animal feeds and such. What I concluded was that "pumpkin seed kernal" must refer only to the "germ" of the seed....a very small part of the whole pumpkin seed. So I figured the "better" calc/phos ratio numbers must be the ones more applicable to the whole seeds we feed squirrels. Still, if you can sort this out, I'd love to hear what you find. If it turns out that the unshelled seeds really do have a bad ratio, back they go to the "avoid" list.

I did this research so that I and others could have a sort of "quick reference" when deciding what to buy at the grocery store, not to position myself as any kind of authority. I'm not a nutritionist and have had no formal education in nutrition and, as such, would not be so presumptuous as suggest to others that I am a nutritionist or have "absolutes" regarding the nutrition of any animal, including my own species. I simply tried to present some evidence, evidence that I found was often contrary to what I had previously believed (again, the cauliflower, for example), and yes, what I found will alter at least my grocery list. Peace :peace

One final note on calc/phos ratios. We were very concerned about these when we were trying to concoct an all-natural "kitchen based" diet, consisting entirely of grocery store foods: veggies, dairy, fruits, etc. It proved IMPOSSIBLE to provide a nutritionally complete diet this way, even using only the healthiest foods you could find (and that they would eat). To wit: A squirrel would have to eat 9 entire heads of endive (one of the best calcium sources, veggie-wise) per week to get the calcium they need. Not to mention complete protein, Vit D, B vitamins..... It simply can't be done.

So again, as long as your squirrel is eating rodent block of some kind as most of his diet, he's getting everything he needs, and the impact of the rest of the foods he eats is very small, especially if you stick to the "Healthy" list. Foods on the "avoid" list because of calc/phos ratios are those with really bad ratios (like pine nuts and corn) AND that squirrels are likely to eat a lot of if given the chance, possibly leading to a negative impact on their overall nutrition.

[island rehabber]

4S and PBJ2, you are both awesome and I can't thank you enough for all your hard work on a subject most of us have no aptitude or patience for.

PBJ2, you write a highly technical post on Christmas Day and wonder why you don't get any responses? Silly, silly boy.....:D :poke

Me, I will read both your posts over and over and over until some of it sinks in, which is the only way I can learn it. I do know that the hardest part of all this is the fact that some of those high-phosphorous foods are exactly the ones our furry friends will choose to eat, exclusively, if we allow them to. :shakehead Tough love, folks, that's what we gotta do here. Can't have them living on corn and sunflower seeds :nono

[PBluejay2]

One final note on calc/phos ratios. We were very concerned about these when we were trying to concoct an all-natural "kitchen based" diet, consisting entirely of grocery store foods: veggies, dairy, fruits, etc. It proved IMPOSSIBLE to provide a nutritionally complete diet this way, even using only the healthiest foods you could find (and that they would eat). To wit: A squirrel would have to eat 9 entire heads of endive (one of the best calcium sources, veggie-wise) per week to get the calcium they need. Not to mention complete protein, Vit D, B vitamins..... It simply can't be done.

So again, as long as your squirrel is eating rodent block of some kind as most of his diet, he's getting everything he needs, and the impact of the rest of the foods he eats is very small, especially if you stick to the "Healthy" list. Foods on the "avoid" list because of calc/phos ratios are those with really bad ratios (like pine nuts and corn) AND that squirrels are likely to eat a lot of if given the chance, possibly leading to a negative impact on their overall nutrition.

I've dealt with 58 squirrels this year, and all get rodent block, but all also get a mix of fuits and veggies and a few nuts. Once the "good stuff" (in their eyes) is gone they'll go for the rodent block, begrudgingly, and most eat some every day. I think many (if not most) will attest to the fact that it's hard to get them to eat commercially made block unless that's about ALL you feed them and they'd rather eat it than starve. I've bought most of the ingredients for your recipe (still lack some vitamins), but as a rehabber who deals with dozens of squirrels at a time (fifteen right now, over thirty at one time this year), I know I can't afford to make or order your blocks, so yes, sinner that I am, I give them fruits and veggies, and that's the main reason I wanted to find those with the best ca/phos ratio and did the research. To my own credit, I've raised and released many healthy squirrels and have three non-releasables that are in very good health. I've received squirrels with MBD but (knock on wood) have never had one develop it under my care. Now, before I'm condemned to hell for not following a 75-80% rodent block diet, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone!

[Mookie's Mom]

Thank you pbluejay2 for explaining what the numbers mean and what to look for. Because of you and 4s, we should all have really healthy squirrels! Thanks.

[gs1]

PBJ thank you so much for doing all this work, it's not easy at all and very frustrating when we get different amounts for the same thing, not to mention ... shelled vs unshelled, roasted vs unroasted and let's not even go into organic vs conventional.

and then considering that the risk of a mistake may be a squirrel not getting the best healthy thing we can give them - well the stress levels go up.

No way, no how will anyone ever condemn you for not giving blocks when you cannot especially since yours are released.

i have a similar problem with my wilds - some will eat the block and others will not and the one who only accepts nuts and will have tantrums if she doesn't get is also the one that i worry about the most (gs1) ... so we do what we can and hope for the best.

but thank you again for your list - i've no chance of getting gs1 to even eat peanut butter and bread let alone any thing else that might, just might be healthy for her but at least the others will get more healthy treats/snacks.

[muffinsquirrel]

Alright, let me throw a monkey wrench into this whole discussion. I have read and studied the different nutrition values in various foods. For the most part, it is very cut and dried - food A has 'X' C to 'Y' P. But what about the way they were grown? Doesn't the type of soil in different parts of the country influence the C/P ratio, as well as every other element in it? Are the wild blueberries in our woods here the same as the tame, cultivated blueberries I grow in the yard? Are the ones that grow in the back of the place, on a very slight hill, identical to the ones that grow down by the pond where the ground is lower, and looks 'richer', rather than very sandy like on the hill.

I guess it boils down to which has the biggest influence - heredity or environment? I swear I am not really trying to cause trouble - I just wonder about this.

muffinsquirrel

[4skwerlz]

I've dealt with 58 squirrels this year, and all get rodent block, but all also get a mix of fuits and veggies and a few nuts. Once the "good stuff" (in their eyes) is gone they'll go for the rodent block, begrudgingly, and most eat some every day. I think many (if not most) will attest to the fact that it's hard to get them to eat commercially made block unless that's about ALL you feed them and they'd rather eat it than starve. I've bought most of the ingredients for your recipe (still lack some vitamins), but as a rehabber who deals with dozens of squirrels at a time (fifteen right now, over thirty at one time this year), I know I can't afford to make or order your blocks, so yes, sinner that I am, I give them fruits and veggies, and that's the main reason I wanted to find those with the best ca/phos ratio and did the research. To my own credit, I've raised and released many healthy squirrels and have three non-releasables that are in very good health. I've received squirrels with MBD but (knock on wood) have never had one develop it under my care. Now, before I'm condemned to hell for not following a 75-80% rodent block diet, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone!

No condemnation here....:D I understand very well the problems of trying to get squirrels to eat rodent block! We struggled with this issue for a long, long time, unsuccessfully....which led to the development of the squirrel blocks. I know they're probably too expensive/time-consuming for a rehabber like yourself who deals with so many squirrels. Although honestly, when you consider the price of fresh veggies these days, and the amount of wastage, I find the blocks cost less in the end.

But you know my research was done specifically for pet squirrels, not rehab-and-release squirrels. Pet squirrels have unique nutritional needs because they'll be in captivity for a lifetime, eating a restricted diet, and with lower activity levels; whereas your squirrels will go free and be able to adopt their wild diet, which should correct any nutritional problems. I never expected many rehabbers to use the squirrel blocks.

Honestly, in your position, I would just use one of the liquid vitamin supplements for rats and mice, which should help with the Vit D and B vitamins, which are very difficult if not impossible to obtain in a vegetarian diet. Plus a calcium supplement. Add up the numbers and you'll see it's impossible to get to 2,500 mg per week with fruits and veggies. Have you tried giving your squirrels eggshells? They seem to enjoy crunching them up, and 1 eggshell has around 2,200 mg of calcium--nearly their entire weekly requirement. Also, have you ever tried the KayTee Forti-Diet blocks? It seems to be the best-tasting of the commercial blocks. They do have some sweeteners in them, but that shouldn't do any harm in the short term, and is better than no rodent block at all. Just a couple of ideas for you. I'm really glad you have an interest in nutrition; it gets lonely out here sometimes....

[gs1]

muffinsquirrel ... i love that monkey wrench .. i love soil,dirt, gardening etc.

and it's so, so true and important. If the minerals/micro-nutrients are not in the soil, it cannot be in the food either - at least not in enough amounts.

for example selenium - micro-nutrient - found in brown rice but depleted in ?north chinese soil and so the population of that area have higher rates of stomach cancer.

ok, this is so highly simplified that it's almost useless but, my point is that if the nutrient is not in the soil and not all soil has every nutrient either through natural methods or through over-farming then the particular food which is supposed to have it can't have in in high amounts either.

well anyway, i just had to jump up and down with excitement and answer this one .. because as i said before i love, love, love soil.



4swerlz .. so glad you have a friend ... i certainly don't want to be trying to figure out percentages and absorbation rates ...ugh...i'd have to go sit down and breathe into a paper bag.

[4skwerlz]

4swerlz .. so glad you have a friend ... i certainly don't want to be trying to figure out percentages and absorbation rates ...ugh...i'd have to go sit down and breathe into a paper bag.

Me too. I hope PBluejay sticks with it. It's nice to have someone to talk to about this stuff.... As for the paper bag, sounds like a good idea....better than tearing my hear out, which is what I usually end up doing.:D

[fsalter53]

I've dealt with 58 squirrels this year, and all get rodent block, but all also get a mix of fuits and veggies and a few nuts. Once the "good stuff" (in their eyes) is gone they'll go for the rodent block, begrudgingly, and most eat some every day. I think many (if not most) will attest to the fact that it's hard to get them to eat commercially made block unless that's about ALL you feed them and they'd rather eat it than starve. I've bought most of the ingredients for your recipe (still lack some vitamins), but as a rehabber who deals with dozens of squirrels at a time (fifteen right now, over thirty at one time this year), I know I can't afford to make or order your blocks, so yes, sinner that I am, I give them fruits and veggies, and that's the main reason I wanted to find those with the best ca/phos ratio and did the research. To my own credit, I've raised and released many healthy squirrels and have three non-releasables that are in very good health. I've received squirrels with MBD but (knock on wood) have never had one develop it under my care. Now, before I'm condemned to hell for not following a 75-80% rodent block diet, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone!

:thumbsup :wave :wave

[Al's mom]

the ratio of pumpkin seeds really blew me away, I always thought they were great for squirrels, and Al loves them. The ratios are important, but even more important is the actual amount in each food. Like someone else said, a blueberry gives a small amount of nutrition, but something else may give a vast amount of both calcium and phosphorus, and we don't want too much phosphorus. I like studying the nutrition aspect, but I am a little weird! :D anyway, thanks for the info:bowdown

[4skwerlz]

the ratio of pumpkin seeds really blew me away, I always thought they were great for squirrels, and Al loves them. The ratios are important, but even more important is the actual amount in each food. Like someone else said, a blueberry gives a small amount of nutrition, but something else may give a vast amount of both calcium and phosphorus, and we don't want too much phosphorus. I like studying the nutrition aspect, but I am a little weird! :D anyway, thanks for the info:bowdown

I'm still not sure about the proper ratio for pumpkin seeds. I haven't been able to figure out the difference between a "whole pumpkin seed" and a "pumpkin seed kernal." I strongly suspect that whole pumpkin seeds are fine. But if anyone has more info, please weigh in.

[PBluejay2]

One of my projects--delayed like most of them--is to update this, adding foods not listed and making it easier for people who don't like to look at numbers by simply ranking the foods by highest to lowest calcium/phosphorus ratio. While it's of course true that some foods have more of both than others, in my opinion whether or not they have two milligrams of calcium per 100 grams and one mg of phosphorus or twenty mg of calcium to ten mg of phosphorus per 100 grams, the idea is to try to keep the balance as close to 2:1 as possible--erring on the calcium side, of course, As far as the pumpkin seeds, the whole pumpkin seed is shell/husk and all. The kernel is what's inside the shell/husk (and what they primarily eat). It's like a sunflower seed. The whole seed is shell and all. The kernel is the thing inside that they eat. Anyway, 100 grams of hulled (no shell) pumpkin seed has 43 mg of calcium and 1174 mg of phosphorus--NOT a good ratio at all! Now I'm sure somebody somewhere has done research on the EMBRYO of the kernel, and I'm sure it's a fascinating study, but my squirrels ate the whole kernel (unlike what they do with acorns) embryo and all--when I USED to give them pumpkin seeds.

[4skwerlz]

One of my projects--delayed like most of them--is to update this, adding foods not listed and making it easier for people who don't like to look at numbers by simply ranking the foods by highest to lowest calcium/phosphorus ratio. While it's of course true that some foods have more of both than others, in my opinion whether or not they have two milligrams of calcium per 100 grams and one mg of phosphorus or twenty mg of calcium to ten mg of phosphorus per 100 grams, the idea is to try to keep the balance as close to 2:1 as possible--erring on the calcium side, of course, As far as the pumpkin seeds, the whole pumpkin seed is shell/husk and all. The kernel is what's inside the shell/husk (and what they primarily eat). It's like a sunflower seed. The whole seed is shell and all. The kernel is the thing inside that they eat. Anyway, 100 grams of hulled (no shell) pumpkin seed has 43 mg of calcium and 1174 mg of phosphorus--NOT a good ratio at all! Now I'm sure somebody somewhere has done research on the EMBRYO of the kernel, and I'm sure it's a fascinating study, but my squirrels ate the whole kernel (unlike what they do with acorns) embryo and all--when I USED to give them pumpkin seeds.

Yes, but how could just the seed inside have SO much more phosphorus than the whole thing? Makes no sense to me.

1 ounce whole pumpkin seeds: 25.8 mg phosphorus/15.4 mg calcium
1 ounce pumpkin seed "kernals": 329 mg phosphorus/12.0 mg calcium

See what I mean? Assuming all the phosphorus is in the seed, not the shell, 13 ounces of whole seeds would have to "shell down" to 1 ounce of seeds.

[TinyPaws]

Nuts on line have added about 50 new items to their menu and I just want to run some of them by for advice....

4S...I know you use vanilla and nuts and nut oils in the blocks so here is some items I thought you might be interested in using for substitutes or a change.....Natural Almond Flour...Hazelnut Flour....Vanilla Beans

The other items I want to check on are...Natural Dried Mulberries, which they say is high in Calcium....Beet Powder....and Elderberries........What do you think?

[4skwerlz]

Nuts on line have added about 50 new items to their menu and I just want to run some of them by for advice....

4S...I know you use vanilla and nuts and nut oils in the blocks so here is some items I thought you might be interested in using for substitutes or a change.....Natural Almond Flour...Hazelnut Flour....Vanilla Beans

The other items I want to check on are...Natural Dried Mulberries, which they say is high in Calcium....Beet Powder....and Elderberries........What do you think?

Thanks for the ideas. I've been to Nuts Online. I generally have to use wholesalers though, to get the lowest prices. I'd love to use nut flours but they tend to be expensive. I grind the almonds down to almost flour myself, which is cheaper. I wish I could find acorn flour at a decent price somewhere.....If you find that, please let me know!

Well, personally, now that Henry eats squirrel blocks every day, I don't worry about constantly hunting for high-calcium foods. He gets all the calcium he needs in the blocks. Dried fruits are high in sugar, but a tiny bit now and then is probably okay.

Elderberries look really healthy...a good source of iron and Vitamin C, low glycemic load, and a calc/phos ratio of 1:1. Nice. If you can find them fresh, that would be best, but a small amount of dried would be okay I guess. Nice find.

[TinyPaws]

4S...It says they are freeze dried...so I'm not sure what that means....

[PBluejay2]

Yes, but how could just the seed inside have SO much more phosphorus than the whole thing? Makes no sense to me.

1 ounce whole pumpkin seeds: 25.8 mg phosphorus/15.4 mg calcium
1 ounce pumpkin seed "kernals": 329 mg phosphorus/12.0 mg calcium

See what I mean? Assuming all the phosphorus is in the seed, not the shell, 13 ounces of whole seeds would have to "shell down" to 1 ounce of seeds.

Again, like a sunflower seed, the kernel is relatively small in comparison to the entire seed, and the kernel is where the "meat" lies, the edible, nutritional part whereas the shell is hard, dense, fibrous protective material with a lot less nutritional value (though as a kid I'd eat pumpkin seed shell and all). And I wouldn't be surprised if wouldn't take thirteen ounces of seed to get one ounce of kernels, but I'll let you shell them all to find out.

[Mickey's Mom]

Does anyone have calcium/phosphorus data for pyracantha and/or toyon berries? My rehab squirrels usually love them and I just wondered if they're healthy for them.

After seeing how few foods have a healthy ratio, I wonder how wild squirrels get the right balance?? They eat mostly vegetation and seeds right? So unless the wild vegetation they eat has hugely more calcium than the cultivated stuff, how do they all keep from getting MBD?? :thinking

[PBluejay2]

Does anyone have calcium/phosphorus data for pyracantha and/or toyon berries? My rehab squirrels usually love them and I just wondered if they're healthy for them.

After seeing how few foods have a healthy ratio, I wonder how wild squirrels get the right balance?? They eat mostly vegetation and seeds right? So unless the wild vegetation they eat has hugely more calcium than the cultivated stuff, how do they all keep from getting MBD?? :thinking


I, or 4s, will try to look that stuff up for you (never heard of them myself), but as far as wild squirrels, while many studies have been done examining stomach contents and such, it's guesswork still as to what they actually consume. When they eat things like dandelion roots, for example, we can analyze dandelion roots, but it's difficult to determine how much of their vitamin/mineral intake comes from the actual dirt they ingest while eating the roots. You want to see a pet or captive szquirrel have a good time? Just put a bowl of dirt in its cage! I have wilds that eat the chalk Roman (maybe Corinthian, Athenian--I don't know) columns I use to set plants on. They also eat all kinds of mushrooms and fungi, both above ground and below, insects, bones, eggshells from wild birds, "under" bark--who knows what else? Ultimately, I assume, they get what they need, and our trying to recreate nature is, at best, hit and miss.

[mojoandvoodoo]

If this works, I've attached a food chart listing calcium to phosphorus ratios for fruits, vegetables, and seeds and nuts. I've spent several hours looking up each food on the USDA's website and Bitelog.com. The only chart I had was something I had from Carol Hardee's rehab pamphlet which she borrowed from a book by Frye called A Practical Guide for Feeding Captive Reptiles. Being the inquisitive/suspicious person I am, I decided to look the info up for myself, and I have to warn you that I came across several surprises (for example, cauliflower isn't the 2:1 Ca to Phos ideal but is actually 1:2 Ca to Phos. Avocado, kohlrabi, and others were also shockers. Feel free to check my math and sources, and correct me if/where I'm wrong. Also please suggest additions that I've overlooked. This may change the "Basic Diet" and our thinking quite a bit. It has mine already.

It says the information is sourced from USDA but USDA does not have that information for pumpkin seeds

https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/fdc-app.html#/food-details/170188/nutrients

USDA shows 55 a calcium and 92 a phosphorus not 1100 phosphorus…