seizures or something like them

[Gaea]

Hi everyone,
My baby “Little dude” is having problems; I’m hoping someone here with your great wisdom of squirrels can help me help him.
He’s having seizures or something like them. He just stops whatever he’s doing, falls over & convulses, then foam’s at the mouth. This last’s at least 2 minuets, seams like forever. Then when it stops, he’s very scared, try’s to dart back end forth. I hold him when this happens, & then hold him until he calms down. He sleeps for 3 or 4 hours (with me checking on him), gets up & he acts like nothing happened. Is there anything I can do for him?:thinking
FYI; He is a brown fox squirrel, about 5 months old, had mange when he came to me, momma dropped him out of a tree on to rocks, wouldn't take him back.

Gaea
Momma squirrel of Portland, Or
:thankyou

[island rehabber]

Gaea, this sounds like seizures for sure. If little dude is a pet squirrel, it may be because of his diet. Please tell us what his diet has been like since you've had him -- what he eats on a daily basis?

[island rehabber]

I have an appt and must run out -- Gaea, please check our forums on "MBD" under Specific Ailments, and also "Squirrel Nutrition" to get a head start on what may be causing the seizures. Another cause could be head trauma, if he fell at any time in the past few days. There are other grat folks here who can take up where I'm leaving off -- I will be back to check on your thread ASAP. :thumbsup

[4skwerlz]

Sounds like MBD. This is an emergency. (I'm assuming your squirrel has not been eating rodent block as most of his diet, and therefore, he will be calcium-deficient.) You will need to get some calcium into him right now. Do you have any Tums or calcium pills in the house? If not, go to the store and buy some Tums, plain or any flavor you think he will like. Regular or extra-strength--doesn't matter. Then crush one pill up in a little water and give it to him with an eyedropper. Or you can crush it up with some peanut butter or avocado--whatever his favorite food is.

You must do this immediately to raise his blood calcium levels and stop the seizures. Then he will need a diet change and long term treatment.

[Gaea]

He eats;
Walnuts, hazelnuts, pecans, pumpkin seeds, apples, bananas, black berries, raspberries, pea's, green beans, cucumbers, lots of water, & sometimes fruit/nut/honey wheel. If I get other fruit , veggies, or nuts I try them out on him. But NEVER junk.
A little bit of all that every day, or what he wants of it.
Yes he’s spoiled
And yes he fell on to rocks from very high up, he’s had these once a month.
I’ve had him since the end of August.

Gaea
Momma squirrel of Portland, OR

[4skwerlz]

See my post just before yours.

[Gaea]

I just read the MBD info, & that really doesn't sound like what he has.
I will make sure he gets more calcium though; really don't want that happening to him.

Thank you very much for the information, I've never heard of MBD before, makes since though.

I will keep you up dated.

Gaea
Momma squirrel of Portland, OR

[4skwerlz]

Believe me, with seizures in a squirrel his age who hasn't been eating rodent block, I am 99.9% certain it is MBD. The seizures happen when the blood calcium level eventually falls so low that it interferes with neurological function. This damage can become permanent if not treated immediately. Or worse, his next seizure might be his last. Critically low blood calcium levels also interfere with heart function.

EDIT: Okay, Gaea PM'd me that her squirrel has been having seizures for some time, and that they could be related to his original fall from the nest onto rocks. This is quite possible. However, his diet is definitely calcium- and protein-deficient. Squirrels must eat rodent block as 70-80% of their diet. There is no other way to get the nutrients they need, even with tons of healthy veggies and fruits. So you should correct his diet in any case. And one emergency Tums can't hurt. If you see an improvement in the seizures afterwards, then you will know whether it was MBD. But correct the diet in any case.

Best of luck, and I hope I didn't scare you. But MBD is an emergency....

[Gaea]

I will ASAP.
I can't leave work for another hour.
But as soon as I get home this will happen.

Gaea
Momma squirrel of Portland, OR

[4skwerlz]

Excellent. Please keep us posted on how your baby is doing. And there's a lot to be done to correct his diet over the coming days and weeks. We are here to help you every step of the way.

Oh, and :Welcome to TSB.

[Gaea]

Where do you get the rodent block?
I've never seen them in any store here.

Gaea
Momma squirrel of Portland, OR

[4skwerlz]

The easiest to find are the KayTee FortiDiet, which you can buy at Petco stores, or order online from them. But.....squirrels who aren't "raised" on commercial rodent block often will not eat them. That's why we have developed a homemade squirrel block with the same (or better) nutrition as rodent blocks and that most squirrels love, so this is another option. One or the other is a MUST.

Just as an example of why even a lot of healthy veggies and other foods aren't enough: Your squirrel would have to eat 9 entire heads of endive lettuce--one of the highest-calcium veggies--per week to get his minimum calcium requirement. The nut-veggie-fruit diet is also very protein deficient. Not to mention other nutrients. This is why a concentrated fortified block-type food is a must.

Don't feel bad. I can't think of more than 1 or 2 new TSB folks who were already feeding their squirrels the proper diet when they found TSB. The information just isn't out there.

[island rehabber]

Gaea I'm back and I see you are in excellent hands here. :thumbsup I second everything 4skwerlz & Gammas Baby has told you and encourage you to get little dude started on a high-calcium, mainly Squirrel Block diet as soon as you possibly can. Please keep us posted!

[Lucky's Mom]

Hello Gaea,

I am new to TSB and IR, 4Skwerlz and GB are the experts so please listen to them about diet and OTT lighting, however, this sounds exactly like what Lucky suffers from. When I found her, she had been attacked by something (dog, cat, hawk, I don't exactly know) and was pretty beat up and very injured, including her head. She unfortunately suffered a brain injury that at times causes her seizures and she goes through identically what you described. Unfortunately, they didn't stop at one and she was diagnosed with Cluster Seizures, which is seizure after seizure for hours. She eats an ideal diet, gets plenty of light and is a clever little loving girl, she just has this condition. When it first happened, my vet and I decided to start her on Phenobarbital at the lowest possible dose, and over the course of a year, we worked to adjust her dosing to get it right. Right now, she gets .46 mls 2 times per day and she has been seizure free for quite some time (she's 3 years old now). She is active and playful and rules the household. She is free roaming, so goes anywhere and everywhere she wants. Every now and then, a seizure will break through, and she'll get a 1/2 dose of the pheno to prevent any more from coming. Then she'll get her normal dose at the proper time. The only thing to remember is... once your little guy is on pheno, you MUST be dedicated to making sure he gets his meds ON TIME EVERY TIME. I have rearranged my entire life to make sure Lucky gets her doses when she needs them, but quite honestly, I wouldn't change it for the world. She is my little girl and I am absolutely devoted to her. :Love_Icon She fills my soul with so much good that I never ever complain. What she gives to me is more than anything I could ever give to her. I am also extremely lucky that she is so accepting and takes her medicine with no struggle. Anyway, I would definitely discuss this with your vet and get his/her input. You'll need a prescription because Phenobarbital is a controlled substance and the pharmacy will have to fill it for you. The cost is minimal so that shouldn't be a problem. A 60-day supply for Lucky is only $7.00, probably cheaper though if I start getting my prescriptions at Wal-Mart.

I hope this helps some, but like I said, listen to GB, 4Skwerlz and IR and get your little one on a proper diet and under the lighting regardless, it is imperative for his health.

[acorniv]

My squirrel had seizures 3 or 4 times too, at about 4 months of age. They were just as you described. Hers were triggered by frights. This squirrel was very high strung as a baby. We could only feed her her formula in absolute quiet, which meant I had to make sure everyone in the house kept their voices down, and didn't walk around etc etc. I have two children and a husband who needed to be living their lives and this was sometimes a major problem. If the phone rang or anything else happened she'd stop eating and that was that till next feeding. She also had stomach problems - probably also because she was tightly wound. We learned to be very careful when she was out because if she got startled she'd go into a seizure. We also gave her Rescue Remedy ( rubbed it in her ears) and Bioplasma (dissolved in a drop or two of water - she LOVES it) and some other homeopathic meds recommended by Mars and Island Rehabber was also a great help to me at the time. My squirrel will be 2 in February and it has been a year and a half since she had a seizure. We pussy footed around her for a while so we would not scare her, and then she simply outgrew them.

It happens that 2 decades ago my parrot got MBD. He ate the best packaged diet at the time, plus table scraps (a good thing), but he got it anyway. His vet had me take him off all nuts and soon afterwards companies started making nut free diet and that is how he has eaten ever since. I want to pass something on that I learned at that time that has not been mentioned on this thread. Calcium deficiencies are not caused in a day and they are not cured in a day. It took Milo 9 months to recover. He spent those months in an Elizabethian collar because he was biting himself and actually bit into his kidney to stop the pain. he could not move well and could not play or stand on a branch in this collar. He could not see around him and could not eat easily. He lived in a playpen It was MISERY. and it was misery to watch too. We tried releasing him from it at 6 months and again at 8 months and it was no good. He'd start biting again as soon as his collar was off. I'm happy to say he is now 25 years old and doing well, but he still occasionally startles and yanks out an unformed feather. Fortunately he's never had to go back into the collar, but I keep it around just in case. For some reason he simply does not assimilate minerals well.

Birds are like squirrels in that nature made them lightweight to keep them airborne (or virtually so, in squirrel's case) but they need extremely strong bones for flapping wings and jumping. Strong, lightweight bones are not easy to make - even for nature. It takes huge amounts of calcium, and it must be calcium that is not blocked from assimilation by phosphorous.

Definitely get your baby started on block food, because he needs it. I recommend you skip the frustration of trying to get him to eat packaged food and go straight to the recipe, and make it from scratch. I spent about half what Gamma's Baby said it would cost because I had many of the ingredients on hand.

Having said that, I have doubts that this is MBD. Let me first say that I have a lot of respect for the experts on this board. I have a lot of respect for the need to get the right nutrition into these animals too. so by all means follow their advice. But, my vet told me it takes about 9 months for a calcium deficiency to show up and that long to cure it. Calcium works it's way into and out of the body very slowly. If you fed your baby Esbilac then he was getting calcium until he was weaned. That doesn't leave much time to develop MBD.

My gut feeling is that this is likely a head injury. but it may also be that his mama knew he had a neurological problem and tossed him out of the nest because in the wild he would not make it. You may never know the cause.

You've been feeding him good healthy foods, but not a complete and balanced diet, so start that now, and also keep his environment calm and cozy, because stress, een when it isn't the root cause, triggers all seizures.

Good luck!

[Jackie in Tampa]

like acorn said....my mbd sq has seizures when his calcium is low and are brought on by noise and fright!
i recommend 4 skwerlz recipe too!:thumbsup
seizures are so scarey..:grouphug
thanks for taking the time to find tsb and good luck!:thumbsup
alot of good info has been posted for you!:thumbsup
:wave123

[acorniv]

[QUOTE=Jackie in Tampa]like acorn said....my mbd sq has seizures when his calcium is low and are brought on by noise and fright![QUOTE=Jackie in Tampa]

Just to clarify, my squirrel didn't have MBD. Her seizures were caused by her over sensitivity. I believe she over came it because I understand how this works in children and I did some occupational therapy to help desensitize her, plus we kept the house very calm for her.

Lots of infant squirrels in rehab have seizures. These are not caused by calcium deficiencies because mama's milk and the formula we give them supply those needs. The long held theory is that they suffer brain damage in falls from their nest, but it's quite possible some are born with neurological problems (caused by a difficult birth, or something that happened in utero or disease).The moms may notice something is wrong and push them out of the nest to spare them a longer or more painful death, or they may have balance issues or seizures that cause them to fall out of the nest.

Calcium absorbs into the system very slowly and also depletes slowly. You can't take calcium and see immediate, or even soon results. It takes many months. Deficiencies also take months ( or even years) to show up.

Minerals don't work alone. You always need them in combination or in combination with certain vitamins. Vitamin D is very important to help calcium absorb into the body, so just giving calcium won't help.

[Jackie in Tampa]

Sorry to not make myself more clear. I meant that my sq has the same reaction to noise and bright lights, seizures....he too is very sensitive/edgey. His IS caused from MBD. Rocky always had a great diet, maybe too many nuts but pretty balanced. He had an injury that caused him to withdraw and not recieve enough sunlight. Lack of exercise, lack of appetite, depleting calcium etc.
4Skwerlz has formulated a liquid shake form of the SQ BLOCK for him. And he is improving.:bowdown
Seizures can be caused from many different things, just like in people.
Sorry for misleading.:tilt

[4skwerlz]

Sorry to not make myself more clear. I meant that my sq has the same reaction to noise and bright lights, seizures....he too is very sensitive/edgey. His IS caused from MBD. Rocky always had a great diet, maybe too many nuts but pretty balanced. He had an injury that caused him to withdraw and not recieve enough sunlight. Lack of exercise, lack of appetite, depleting calcium etc.
4Skwerlz has formulated a liquid shake form of the SQ BLOCK for him. And he is improving.:bowdown
Seizures can be caused from many different things, just like in people.
Sorry for misleading.:tilt

Sorry Jackie, my quotes got messed up....I was responding to a quote from Acorniv, NOT you. sorry sorry sorry.

I absolutely agree that we're not sure the seizures in Gaea's squirrel are from MBD, and many other ailments can cause seizures. I was only responding to Acorniv's comments about calcium.

Too late for me to edit it; can anyone fix it?

[4skwerlz]

Okay, this is what my post was SUPPOSED to look like:


Calcium absorbs into the system very slowly and also depletes slowly. You can't take calcium and see immediate, or even soon results. It takes many months. Deficiencies also take months ( or even years) to show up.

Minerals don't work alone. You always need them in combination or in combination with certain vitamins. Vitamin D is very important to help calcium absorb into the body, so just giving calcium won't help.

Just a couple of points here. It's true that calcium is metabolized into bone fairly slowly, but it enters the bloodstream quickly. A certain amount of calcium is required in our body fluids to enable cell-to-cell communication (similar to the way we must have a certain amount of sodium). Without it, all body systems are affected. With a calcium-deficient diet, the body will pull calcium from the storage depots in the bones in order to keep the blood calcium levels up. This depletes the bones, causing bone loss. Eventually there isn't enough calcium in the bones to draw on, and the blood calcium level drops. This is when you see seizures and paralysis. There can also be irregular heartbeat and breathing. Untreated, the animal will die.

And while it's true that calcium must work with Vitamin D and other elements in order to build bone, plain calcium is all that is needed to raise blood calcium levels and, at least temporarily, halt the seizures and other acute symptoms. In these situations it is literally a lifesaving treatment, and the calcium acts very quickly; it is not unusual to see an animal apparently at death's door acting completely normal within hours. This is not the end of treatment of course. One must then give calcium daily to keep those levels up, PLUS a diet that includes all the necessary vitamins and minerals to slowly rebuild bone. This, as you said, takes many months.

One would imagine that it would always take a long time for MBD to develop, but in fact it can happen shortly after weaning. It will depend on whether calcium intake was adequate during the nursing phase (we're still not sure the formulas we use have the full amount of calcium required). And it will also depend on the weaning diet. A diet high in phosphorus and oxylates (a lot of nuts, seeds, and spinach), for example, can deplete large amounts of calcium very quickly. Additionally, there seems to be some individual variation. Some squirrels seem to manage fairly well on a bad diet for many years before developing MBD, while others develop it quickly. As you said, the process is complicated and many nutritional elements are involved.

Just to reiterate, the purpose of the plain calcium is to quickly raise blood calcium levels, halt acute symptoms, and save the squirrel's life. But this must always be followed by a nutritionally complete diet to treat the underlying condition and rebuild bone.

Hope this clears things up a bit....

[island rehabber]

Too late for me to edit it; can anyone fix it?

done :thumbsup

[acorniv]

Jackie, Please don't apologize - I just wanted to make sure I was clear, myself. In RL there are often times when things need rephrasing and we never give it a second thought. Funny how it becomes a self conscious thing when written :dono .



Hope this clears things up a bit....

Yes it does - for me at least. Thanks - I never mind being corrected, BTW, so long as the information is right, of course. There are bound to be occassional stop signs on the road to helping the furries.

[Gaea]

Thanks for the info.
I gave him part of a Tums, as someone suggested.
I found rodent block (he hates them), I also got him some yogurt covered nuts & raisins (he likes to hide). Also got some breakfast bars with low sugar & hi calcium & proteins

We do have a vet that will see him; she said that there was nothing she could do for him.
But she specializes in exotic animals, so she's not really sure.
I have the light that everyone’s talking about; he gets lots of that.

He looks & act's fine though.
I will look into all that you all have wrote,
I will keep you all up-dated.
Again, thank you all so much

Gaea
The squirrel momma
Portland, OR

[Frickster]

I put a VERY THIN coat of natural peanut butter on Frick's rodent blocks and she loves them after that. I basically just put a drop on my finger and then rub it all over the rodent block. If there's any excess I just wipe it off with a napkin...but it stills SMELLS like it should be something good to her lol.

[Gaea]

Up-date;
I thought I had left an up-date yesterday but I don’t see it any where.
I got the rodent blocks (he hates them), I gave him part of a Tums (he loved that), I got him yogurt covered raisins & nuts (he buries those), I got him breakfast bars low sugar high calcium & high protein. He’s ok with them.
I also got the kayo syrup just in case.
Little Dude still seams fine; well he’s pi#@*:soapbox with me for the major food change.
Just to ease your minds, he does go out side to play everyday for at least an hour, and we do have one of those lights that stays on all day. I work graveyard shift, so I mess with him when I get home, & again when I get up. & my other ½ messes with him when he gets up for his swing shift, & again when he gets home. He gets more attention then any other animal we have.
I will try to make that recipe that was posted, because he hates that pet store stuff.

I will keep you all posted.
Thanks again for all your help,:thankyou
Gaea
Momma squirrel
Of Portland, OR

[4skwerlz]

How are the seizures?

Thanks for the update, and please keep us posted.

[Gaea]

First chance I've had to up-date;
Plus I wanted to see about the seizures, if they came back or what.

Anyway, Little Dude is now Little Girl, got a better look. Who knew? :dono

Her diet has changed a lot, still has seizures, about once a month from what I can tell.
She is VERY active, lot's of energy, eaten through her cage the other day.
Never wants to be locked up.
The sweetest little thing,
She wants outside all the time.
I've tried to put pictures on here, but I guess I'm not smart enough.
Thanks again for your help.:thankyou

Gaea
Momma squirrel
Oregon:D

[SkwerlGirl]

Whatever happened to this one??:dono

[Gaea]

Here's my 5 month old baby,
As I said before, Little Dude is now Little Girl.

Thank you Gamma's baby, I hope this works.:thankyou
I really want you all to see her.

Gaea
Momma squirrel
of Oregon:D

[Gaea]

Thanks, she is beautiful, she's sooo wonderful, & lovie.

I haven't herd of Maitake-DMG, but I will look into it.

:thankyou

Gaea
Momma squirrel
Of Oregon

[island rehabber]

YIKES! Gaea I'm sorry I put the wrong type of DMG compound in my post -- that's the $89 one, for cryin' out loud -- sorry! This is the much more affordable version and the one that I've used....
]Vetri-DMG (http://www.squirrelsandmore.com/product/1820/vetri-and-dmg.htm)

Product ID: AR1432-01 & 02
Availability: ships immediately




VETRI-DMG
(Immune System Support Formulas)
For Dogs, Cats, Birds, and Exotics Recommended to help support proper immune response, cardiovascular and skin health, glucose metabolism and proper nerve and brain functions.
Available in two sizes:
1 fl oz (30 ml)$11.95
4 fl oz (120 ml) $35.50
Please make your selection in the option box.

[Gaea]

Thanks

I'll look into it.

Gaea:thankyou
Momma Squirrel
of Oregon

[Mickey's Mom]

Okay, this is what my post was SUPPOSED to look like:


Just a couple of points here. It's true that calcium is metabolized into bone fairly slowly, but it enters the bloodstream quickly. A certain amount of calcium is required in our body fluids to enable cell-to-cell communication (similar to the way we must have a certain amount of sodium). Without it, all body systems are affected. With a calcium-deficient diet, the body will pull calcium from the storage depots in the bones in order to keep the blood calcium levels up. This depletes the bones, causing bone loss. Eventually there isn't enough calcium in the bones to draw on, and the blood calcium level drops. This is when you see seizures and paralysis. There can also be irregular heartbeat and breathing. Untreated, the animal will die.

And while it's true that calcium must work with Vitamin D and other elements in order to build bone, plain calcium is all that is needed to raise blood calcium levels and, at least temporarily, halt the seizures and other acute symptoms. In these situations it is literally a lifesaving treatment, and the calcium acts very quickly; it is not unusual to see an animal apparently at death's door acting completely normal within hours. This is not the end of treatment of course. One must then give calcium daily to keep those levels up, PLUS a diet that includes all the necessary vitamins and minerals to slowly rebuild bone. This, as you said, takes many months.

One would imagine that it would always take a long time for MBD to develop, but in fact it can happen shortly after weaning. It will depend on whether calcium intake was adequate during the nursing phase (we're still not sure the formulas we use have the full amount of calcium required). And it will also depend on the weaning diet. A diet high in phosphorus and oxylates (a lot of nuts, seeds, and spinach), for example, can deplete large amounts of calcium very quickly. Additionally, there seems to be some individual variation. Some squirrels seem to manage fairly well on a bad diet for many years before developing MBD, while others develop it quickly. As you said, the process is complicated and many nutritional elements are involved.

Just to reiterate, the purpose of the plain calcium is to quickly raise blood calcium levels, halt acute symptoms, and save the squirrel's life. But this must always be followed by a nutritionally complete diet to treat the underlying condition and rebuild bone.

Hope this clears things up a bit....

:goodpost 4skwerlz -- I think I understand how calcium and MBD work for the first time! I was confused between the acute and the long-term effects, and your posting cleared it up perfectly! :thankyou

[Gaea]

Yes she's getting a lot of calcium, vitamins, minerals, Light, outside time & other good stuff.:thumbsup
I will be looking into the drops, as soon as I can.

:thankyou Thanks for all your help.:bowdown

Gaea
Momma squirrel
From Oregon:wahoo

[Bugsie]

Your little girl is beautiful:Love_Icon I just love it when they perch up on doors, it is to cute:D