Can squirrels be defanged?

[blindninja]

I have a 4 mo old male gray, raised from 2 wks. When his eyes opened it was evident that he was visually impaired. Since then he has regained some of his vision, but I don't think all since he still runs into things at times. I do not feel he is releasable, but he is definitely "wilding up". He has bitten me and my 7 yr old daughter to the point of bloodshed. I have tried taking corrective measures (yelping, saying no, pushing him off me, these all seem to make him more aggressive). I then tried using a spray bottle when he bites, which is somewhat more effective, but does not stop the problem. The issue as I see it is that if he continues to bite he will have to live in the cage, which does not seem fair to him. I would release him if I could, but I can't. So in the interest of family harmony I wondered if the incisors can be removed. He would still be able to chew, but not bite. He will be neutered in another two months and if possible the 2 procedures could be done at the same time.
Any thoughts?
Tassie

[PBluejay2]

I have a 4 mo old male gray, raised from 2 wks. When his eyes opened it was evident that he was visually impaired. Since then he has regained some of his vision, but I don't think all since he still runs into things at times. I do not feel he is releasable, but he is definitely "wilding up". He has bitten me and my 7 yr old daughter to the point of bloodshed. I have tried taking corrective measures (yelping, saying no, pushing him off me, these all seem to make him more aggressive). I then tried using a spray bottle when he bites, which is somewhat more effective, but does not stop the problem. The issue as I see it is that if he continues to bite he will have to live in the cage, which does not seem fair to him. I would release him if I could, but I can't. So in the interest of family harmony I wondered if the incisors can be removed. He would still be able to chew, but not bite. He will be neutered in another two months and if possible the 2 procedures could be done at the same time.
Any thoughts?
Tassie

You say "I don't think all," and that suggests some uncertainty. Assuming you have taken him to a vet to confirm the impaired vision and that it won't get better with time, before having either procedure done, you might consider adopting him out to someone who has the facilities to house him in a manner that will allow him to keep both his teeth and testicles and still live a rather happy captive life, or you might consider building one yourself. I have two nonreleasables that live in 250 sq. ft. of a 600 sq. ft. aviary, and they seem fairly content to do so. The male has not been neutered and gets "in season" sometimes, but it passes.

As far as removing the teeth, if there's no dental problem that requires it, in my humble opinion you should absolutely not do so. I don't want to offend you by using the word "cruel," but doing so should not even be a consideration. A squirrel's teeth are its livelihood and source of entertainment/diversion/happiness. If you keep the squirrel, you are looking at possibly fifteen or so years of having a maimed and miserable animal. In addition, the roots of the incisors extend far back into the skull and mandible, all the way under the eye sockets and to the back of the lower jaw. What you are able to see of a tooth is only a fraction--possibly only a fourth or fifth--of the entire thing. Such a surgery is very traumatic, has a high risk for infection (often the entire tooth isn't/can't be removed but the root simply killed and allowed to "rot"), and should be done only if required to save the life of the squirrel.

Finally, your squirrel is an adolescent, and I've found that is the age that they are most likely to bite. My "Buddy" bit me a few times around that age (bloody wounds), but after consistent admonishment and telling him to "bite soft" when he plays with me, he hasn't drawn blood since reaching adulthood. He still bites (that's how they play) but knows his limits. If your squirrel trusts you enough to climb all over you (you said you "push him off"), he's not biting out of fear or aggression, I wouldn't think, but probably in "play." Squirrels are rowdy little animals, and anyone who keeps one must accept the fact that it will never behave like a lap dog. I wear my scratches proudly.

[island rehabber]

EXCELLENT response, PBluejay. :goodpost

[Ardilla]

:goodpost

[4skwerlz]

:Welcome
This is a difficult situation. I agree with PBluejay, the first thing you should do is have his eyesight evaluated. Knowing where he stands vision-wise will help define your options. Another factor besides his eyesight is his personality. Some squirrels are simply wilder than others. Some can adjust to captivity; others cannot and will get increasingly nasty. Only time will tell. We like to say "let the squirrel decide," and they will usually let you know in no uncertain terms. Biting to draw blood could be a sign he wants to be wild, or it could simply be brattiness/testing the limits.

Then you basically have three options:

1. If he chooses to be wild and his eyesight is good enough--and it doesn't have to be PERFECT (I've seen many wild squirrels do fine with only one eye)--then you can find someone to help teach him to be a wild squirrel, get him used to being with other squirrels, etc., and do a "soft release."

2. If he chooses to be wild and his eyesight precludes release, then you can find someone that can give him a happy semi-captive life in an outdoor habitat.

3. If he's tamable, but just going through a bratty stage, you can try to train him not to bite and keep him yourself. If he is absolutely determined to be wild, then training won't work.

I don't believe defanging/neutering will solve this. If he's determined to be wild, then de-fanging might minimize the damage to your skin, but it would not turn him into a happy, friendly, tame squirrel--just a toothless, miserable wild animal. The consensus on neutering is that sometimes it works/sometimes it has no effect.

Whatever you decide, the people here on TSB can help you find the resources and help you need.

[wheezer]

Two very good post:bowdown

[FallensMommie]

Also if there is any nuts laying around that he is trying to protect (be terroritorial over) remove at once. Do not let him cache his nuts outside his cage. They do become very aggresive if you go near their stored nuts. I have had to locate all nuts my squirrel has stored up around the house due to him getting very aggressive and biting and swatting at us. Removing the nuts to his cage only has made him non-aggressive while in our living space.

I totally agree with PBJ and what he had to say pertaining to the teeth.

[cra]

Please do not defang his teeth. He will be very miserable. Also, your disciplining method is not correct. For example spraying the squirrel is not the right way and may cause it to be scared of water and spray bottle. For those that are well versed in wild animal care (especially parrots), they know spraying with water is not a good disciplinary method at all. (it just gives quick result but at times have dire consequences). Others here can teach about the disciplining method for squirrels.

Keeping a wild animal such as squirrel involves a lot of sacrifices. Only true animal lovers will put up with them (which usually involves revolving their lives round the animals, incurring $$$expenses where they chew up/destroy your furniture, getting bitten sometimes horribly, messy ). If you are unable or unwilling to provide such a commitment, it would be better to give the squirrel up to somebody that can care for him especially since he's only 4 months old. This board can help with finding someone to take care of your squirrel.

Also, most squirrels will wild up eventually and only a few special ones love their 'human moms/dads' while usually hating/biting the rest of the other family members. If your squirrel is determined to be wild, then the best thing is give it to someone here that can rehab him to be a wild squirrel. I always feel that its best to let the squirrel decide whether he wants to be a wild or indoor squirrel. If he wants to be a wild squirrel, then neutering him would be horrible. However, if he decides to be an indoor squirrel or he is non-releasable, then neutering may be an option. Why not wait to see whether the squirrel is determined to be wild. If he wants to be an indoor squirrel and you and your family are willing to make the commitment ($, time, bites, mess etc), then neutering may be an option to explore then. Remember--check with your other family members too on whether they are willing to put up with the sacrifices or it will make the whole family (human and furry) unhappy

[Frickster]

please don't have these two operations done.....poor little guy will be SO sad and miserable....and they really can get depressed to the point of having a broken heart!

[TessiesMom]

Just a thought -

My two-year-old nonreleasable grey, Tess, is ordinarily the sweetest, most loving squirrel imaginable, but she will attack and bite me savagely if I get anywhere near her within several hours of taking a bath or shower. My vet believes that this is because a squirrel's primary sense is the sense of smell, and that while I still look and sound like Mommy, her nose says that I'm not and that she may believe that she's being tricked or fooled by an "imposter."
Whatever the reason, I am aware of the problem and simply avoid letting her near me until I smell like myself again. If your little guy is visually impaired, I would think that this might be even more of an issue for him. Something to consider...

[blindninja]

First of all, let me thank all of you for your comprehensive replies. I appreciate your taking the time to help me.

When he was 2 mo old I took him to a vet who declared him blind. Since then it has become apparent that he can see somewhat, but definitely not clearly. He has launched himself off the back of the recliner toward a shadow on the floor, and seems very surprised when he hits the ground. He runs into narrow objects such as chair and table legs. But this is not necessarily the factor precluding his release. Since it was assumed that he would be non-releasable he has become very accustomed to people and dogs, and basically has no fear. I know if he was released around here he would be easy pickings for the local dogs.

It has come across loud and clear that defanging is not an option, although neutering still is.

Food aggression is definitely becoming more of an issue. I have tried to keep him used to being handled when he is eating and for the most part this has worked, but recently when I was trying to get a nut out of a bag to give him he ran down my arm and bit the hand in the bag four times rapidly and hard.

It is amazing to me that such a small animal can have such a large impact on a household. When out of his cage (which is 7' high, 4' across, 2' deep) he raises h**l! Who knew that they can run and pee at the same time? So I'm constantly running after him with a clean up towel. If I feed him too much green pepper he gets mushy stools, which then get everywhere. I spent a lot of money and quite a bit of time making squirrel cakes (per the recipe on this site) and he won't eat them. Incredibly high maintenance animals. All of this though would be tolerable if we could control the biting. My daughter loves him, despite the fact that he has bitten her numerous times.

If I could find someone to place him with where he would be happy, I would consider it, but it seems that most rehabbers have their hands full already.

Thanks

[blindninja]

Just a thought -

My two-year-old nonreleasable grey, Tess, is ordinarily the sweetest, most loving squirrel imaginable, but she will attack and bite me savagely if I get anywhere near her within several hours of taking a bath or shower. My vet believes that this is because a squirrel's primary sense is the sense of smell, and that while I still look and sound like Mommy, her nose says that I'm not and that she may believe that she's being tricked or fooled by an "imposter."
Whatever the reason, I am aware of the problem and simply avoid letting her near me until I smell like myself again. If your little guy is visually impaired, I would think that this might be even more of an issue for him. Something to consider...

Thanks for the info, I will keep this in mind.

[PBluejay2]

Excuse the cut and paste reply, but I'm getting short-term memory problems as I age :-)

But this is not necessarily the factor precluding his release. Since it was assumed that he would be non-releasable he has become very accustomed to people and dogs, and basically has no fear. I know if he was released around here he would be easy pickings for the local dogs.

Squirrels can be reconditioned to fear both, but it sounds like the vision problem IS the factor precluding release.

It has come across loud and clear that defanging is not an option, although neutering still is.

Thank you!

Food aggression is definitely becoming more of an issue. I have tried to keep him used to being handled when he is eating and for the most part this has worked, but recently when I was trying to get a nut out of a bag to give him he ran down my arm and bit the hand in the bag four times rapidly and hard.

After they're weaned, I NEVER try to handle while they are eating. I'll hand them nuts as snacks, but once I set their trays down in their cages for their daily feeding, I'm outta there! Even my tamest squirrel will smack and growl at me when he's chowing down.

Question: If you think back to times when he has bitten, is there any pattern? I've dealt with a couple of blind animals, and one thing I learned quickly was to give them notice (by talking to them) that I was about to touch them. Also, are there times when he "play bites" but doesn't break the skin?

[4skwerlz]

It sounds like he is basically a pet out of control at this point..... You can try training him. (I can relate, since I took in two 12-week old squirrels, including a very bratty NR boy squirrel who is blind in one eye. Since they were rescued at 9 weeks, and then I got them at an even older age, they were basically raised wild, so I wasn't even "mommy" to them, so I was worried about the biting issue, him turning wild, etc.)

It is normal for them to "put their teeth on you" and to playbite. Seems like that's how they relate. But if mine bit down just a tiny bit too hard, I would make a noise like "aht-aht-aht" very loud (sounds a little like a squirrel sound), and swat him on the side of the shoulder with one finger, just like I've seen mom squirrels do to their young in the wild. I would chase him down to do this if necessary, "aht-aht-aht-ing" the whole time. Then I would put that finger right at his mouth. If he nicely put his paw on my finger and touched it with his mouth, then that meant he got the message and was acknowledging my dominance. If he kept running away or continued to swat or "grrr" at me, then I kept it up until he gave in. Then usually a few minutes of ignoring him as a time out. Then some petting. My boy Henry is QUITE the brat, loves to playbite my fingers, wrestle with my hands, ambush me, and sometimes he gets excited and starts to grrr or swat, then I always discipline him. Once they get used to it, it really works every time. He KNOWS who's boss--mommy. It's important not to jerk your fingers away every time he puts his teeth on them, as this tells him he is scaring you and that he is dominant. It's scary at first, but in order to gain HIS trust, you have to give him YOURS. I now trust Henry 100% not to bite, will let him playbite my fingers behind my back, etc.

Food is a big issue as their instincts kick in very strongly there. I try to control the food-giving situation. First, NO STASHES OF ANY KIND. They get snarly and protective. Second, until he learns to behave better, I would be very careful how you feed him, i.e., not reaching into a bag of nuts with him running loose. Once he learns the "aht aht" you can use that to teach him to take food more or less nicely. They learn routines very quickly, so maybe pick one spot where he can sit and will always receive a treat, but ONLY if he doesn't grrr or lunge for it. Bring your hand up to him with the treat slowly, and if he lunges or grrrs, then aht-aht-aht and sweep it away. They learn really fast. And don't start with nuts, use a slightly less desirable treat and work your way up. EDIT: Just read PBluejay's post and I agree with to-be-released squirrels, you don't mess with their food, but with a NR pet squirrel, I feel you can and must insist on them being polite regarding food--with the possible exception of nuts.

I believe it is beneficial to express your dominance in some form every single day, as a reminder of who is boss.

The point about scents is very true. I use unscented everything, and recommend it.

Just like a child that's used to getting his way, the first time you lay down the law you'll get a lot of resistance, but keep at it.

Once you remove all stashes, keep trying with the squirrel block. NO OTHER FOOD until he eats his block. This is very important as nutritional deficiencies can cause behavioral problems too, and if he hasn't been eating rodent block, he may well be deficient.

Best of luck.

[Charles Chuckles]

I agree with all the posts..
My 2-cents...My Charley will rip anyone but me a new one...He use to let my husband hold him ,my husband help me raise Charley but when he reached a few months old (can't remember...he is 4 now) He just turned into a one person squirrel..ME 24/7, Now I love that he loves me so much however I have not been anywhere say overnight in all these years, I simple can't. Charley has taken up all my time...now I am retired so I have the luxury..flip side I can't tell you how many cruises I have had to pass up. Charley was not able to be released so I took on this..he can in fact live 15-20 years and I hope to God he does, that may sound nuts to some but he is my life and you have to be willing to do that. I don't think it is for most people and if you are not 101% sure, it might be best to find a good home..Believe me they do exist..and The Squirrel Board will help you just ask!
Have a great Thanksgiving and please don't do any surgery on the little guy:squirrel1

[PBluejay2]

Ironies--all this talk about biting, and one of my babies that I'm over-wintering (about three and a half to four months old) just latched on to my left pointer. He likes to "escape" when I feed him and his cagemate, so I have to catch him after a few moments of freedom. I've raised him from a pinkie, and he's never bitten me before, but this, as I hold this compress (fancy name for paper towel) to my finger while the blood oozes profusely, is another lesson in respect for the fact that these wonderful creatures are fundamentally wild and will always be so.

[Sciurus1]

Good counse to use your voice as a squirrel does, it does get their attention. And I do agree that playbiting is something they do, so if you don't want to play their way, don't put your hands on them as to encourage it.

Yet I don't agree that showing aggression breeds submission, but moreoften aggression, for though some squirrels will react submission to it, but others clearly do not. Case in point, a friend of mine who is a rehabber, told me a story about one of her adult children trying to gentle move a squirrel back into his large compound with the side of her foot, but that was seen as aggression by the squirrel, and so it bit her. She realized what she did then was showing aggression and didn't hold the squirrel accountable, but only herself. Not all squirrels would necessarily react that way, some being more submission, but some do. What does work is domination in a way that is not aggressive, but showing dominance all the same. I would hold the squirrel a bit longer when I worked with it, asking it, as if were, to submit just a bit more each time. Eventually I found that relaxing my grip, caused the squirrel to relax too, and to my surprise willing staying resting on my hand for a short while without using any grip at all. Eye contact and voice then have allot to do with it, so talk to your squirrel, and try to employ their language to do it.

[Peaches]

I think the "defanging" thing is already settled but I would like to add that it is not only a cruel thing to do but also a very very dangerous procedure.

I do want to tell you however that having a squirrel with a young child might not be a wise thing to do. Squirrels tend to pick one person as their owner and attack everyone else. This will not only include other family members but company and definitely your daughters friends as well. If you decide to keep him you must be very careful about your daughter and especially her friends as people tend to freak out when they hear their child has been bitten to the bone by a "wild animal". Also nobody else will be able to squirrel sit for you if you want to go away so forget vacations or even weekend getaways. You have to be careful after taking a shower or washing your hands, you cant use strong cleaners or air fresheners. Oh yeah if you dye your hair beware :eek: . I got attacked and chittered at for 3 days after I did that. There are a rare few who will make a good pet but most of them will fall into the description above.
As for training please dont try any aggressive measures for training, it will only make him angry and they do hold grudges. I had a squirrel who hated the word No so much that if you accidentally said it he would fly into your face, ears pinned back and bite you repeatedly. Try making a squealing sound when he bites too hard or jumps on your face/head. This usually scares them and they realize they hurt you and learn not to do that.
As for taking away any nut stashes to prevent stash protection attacks I personally think this is mean. It is a squirrels natural instinct to store nuts for later. I would imagine it would upset them terribly to keep having what they see as their survival food stolen. They are hardwired to store food and protect it with a vengeance, I say just keep away from the stash piles. I know where they are and I dont go near them when a squirrel is near. I tried collecting them and putting them all in one place but that just lead to a restashing event. They want them where they want them.
If you find a squirrel doesnt fit into your life style I'm sure we can find someone on this board to adopt him who's life is better suited to living with a squirrel (IE no life :rofl4 ) Its hard to tell what his adult personality will be at this age. Some become very sweet and some become very aggressive, only time will tell.
Good luck with him and keep us posted

[4skwerlz]

I don't want to start any controversy in this thread, but I don't want anyone to think we're a bunch of mean squirrel-beaters here on TSB.....

There is difference between aggression and discipline. All social animals have hierarchies and standards of behavior, and they enforce them vocally and physically with one another. Each species has a certain "language" by which they express dominance, submission, and aggression. If a dog misbehaves in the pack, a dominant dog will place his teeth on his neck and hold him to the ground until he shows submission. If a strange dog approaches, he will growl, show his teeth, raise his hackles. The message of aggression is "I will hurt you, kill you, take away your food." Dominance says "My will is stronger than yours and you must do what I say." Of course there can be a fine line here, but animals seem to know the difference. If a young squirrel goes somewhere he shouldn't, momma squirrel will vocalize and chase him down and swat him. A mother raccoon has been observed to pick up each of her young and spank its bottom when they strayed too close to a deep creek. This is not aggression; it is discipline.

In order to interact with, or train, an animal successfully, I believe you must understand their language at least somewhat. I've spent thousands of hours observing a community of wild squirrels over a period of 5 years. At first all you see is "squirrels running around." Then you notice that squirrels that know each other act a certain way, and two strange squirrels act a different way. That momma disciplines her young in this way, and acts a different way toward an intruding female. We can't hope to understand more than a small part of this, of course, but it helps to have a general idea. For example, we all know the "lunge" means aggression. So you wouldn't want to reach your hand toward a squirrel suddenly, as that could seem like you're lunging at him. When Henry and I play, my hand becomes another squirrel. I bounce my hand up and down, like the "flea bounce," and wave my fingers in the air, the way they "box" with one another, because this is how I've seen squirrels play in the wild, and seen Henry and Hazel play as well. I also have a "let's play" noise that I make. I'm inviting Henry to play and he sure knows it! But if I were to lunge my hand toward him and growl, that might be seen as aggression.

I have NEVER shown aggression to my precious boy. I have never FELT aggressive towards him (aggression is after all, an emotion, expressed physically). When I discipline him I am calm and firm, not angry. I don't actually "chase" him down; I follow him calmly until he stops and then do the tiny swat, etc. I think if you could see how we interact, you would be convinced that my discipline is understood as such, that it works, and that my squirrel has absolutely no fear of me, and trusts me completely. And vice versa.

[Peaches]

4skwerlz if you are replying to my post I'm sorry, I wasnt talking about your post. I was referring to the original post of spraying him with water and pushing him off, these are all used in dog training and will cause a squirrel to become more aggressive. Its important for people to remember that while it is possible to train a squirrel you must remember that they are indeed wildlife taken literally right from the trees. You cant use the same tricks as used in domestic pets. You have been around them and studied them enough to understand how a squirrel mind works Blindninja has not. If she "chases" the squirrel around to reprimand him the way she would a puppy the squirrel might interpret this as an attack and might either attack back or grow fearful of her. Rest assured we all know you are not beating your squirrels lol. The very thought is absurd. They must be reprimanded in order to live with them but you understand the mindset of the squirrel better than a beginner who might not get the desired results.
I didnt mean to make it sound like I thought you were cruel, I was just trying to claify that she shouldnt use aggressive moves with a squirrel.

[4skwerlz]

4skwerlz if you are replying to my post I'm sorry, I wasnt talking about your post. I was referring to the original post of spraying him with water and pushing him off, these are all used in dog training and will cause a squirrel to become more aggressive. Its important for people to remember that while it is possible to train a squirrel you must remember that they are indeed wildlife taken literally right from the trees. You cant use the same tricks as used in domestic pets. You have been around them and studied them enough to understand how a squirrel mind works Blindninja has not. If she "chases" the squirrel around to reprimand him the way she would a puppy the squirrel might interpret this as an attack and might either attack back or grow fearful of her. Rest assured we all know you are not beating your squirrels lol. The very thought is absurd. They must be reprimanded in order to live with them but you understand the mindset of the squirrel better than a beginner who might not get the desired results.
I didnt mean to make it sound like I thought you were cruel, I was just trying to claify that she shouldnt use aggressive moves with a squirrel.
Thanks for clearing that up. I DID think you were talking about my post....there was no offense taken anyhoo. I agree with everything you say above. :D

[acorniv]

There have been so many good suggestions on this thread, and I think 4swerlz comments about aggression vs discipline are especially important. I know a lot of people's first reaction is to take it personally when they are bitten. We must never forget these are wild animals and nothing we do can ever change that ( now should it).

I have observed squirrels in the wild for over 11 years, beginning with one trio of sibs that each lived over a decade. I have a long porch that has feeders on it including one just outside a window a foot from where I sit. There's a lot of disciplining going on between mom and young, and between the more and the less dominant members of the community. Some squirrels back down and some never do, or take forever.

We also learned the language, both to understand and to convey information. That helps a lot. I agree that you mustn't physically harm them or scream at them or spray them with water. Really, anything they regard as mean is counter productive. What you want to work with is the fact that they are attentive. They will look you in the eye ( the opposite of what a dog will do) when they are being scolded and try to read you.

What we do when Schmootie is aggressive, is catch her and hold her head down ( usually hold it to our chest). We tell her NO (not shouting - that scares her - just a firm NO), and shake our heads and say "No biting." Firm but not loud. She looks us in the eye and listens, and for that we scratch her pants (her rump) and pet her head and keep telling her no biting as we walk out to her screen porch, where she must do some time out. Usually it takes quite a trick to get her back in her room but when she has been scolded she gets off immediately and goes to eat or sit on a chair, etc. so I know she 'gets it'.

I get the opposite response to many of you with nuts. In fact we use them to keep from making her mad, and I just discovered that if she is in a foul mood we can give her a nut and she will hold it. So long as she's got it she can't bite us and she won't drop the nut to bite. So I keep nuts in my pocket at all times and I think they have kept me from getting bitten.

It is interesting that the biting has come up though - it has not been a frequent topic here that I've seen. Is everyone being bitten more? Because...

Schmootie has never bitten - not even once, in the 1 3/4 years that we have had her. Not us, and not strangers. She would woof and nip bare feet, but not hard. Until two weeks ago. Now we've all been bitten except my 13 yo, who is her primary Mom ( I'm a close second). It came on VERY suddenly, and is a constant issue. She's buried 5 pounds of nuts so far and seems FRANTIC to find and bury or rebury more. I found the comments about not allowing this interesting. But she's always buried nuts, so what will she do with all her free time? She's also gone from being off her feed to ravenous. Almost insatiable. She's eating everything in sight - even her own poops and paper. This squirrel has never been a big eater. She's almost a nervous wreck, running around burying and growling and woofing and biting, and wantonly destroying things - she never did that before. As squirrels go, other than eating problems she has been a model citizen.

She also seems hyper and less interested in affection - never comes to us for it, and doesn't stay long when we catch her. She's always been such a love glutton. She's also knocking large items over - never did that before. The main interaction she wants form us now is wrestling. It's like she's found testosterone.

She seems to be beginning to respond to our discipline efforts but we're wondering why this happened all of a sudden at this age?

Here are the things that have changed recently:

#1 we're remodeling the kitchen and dining room, which are part of her roaming grounds, and this behavior began not long after we pulled out the carpet ( which probably smelled good and stinky)

#2 She just went through being in heat. Could this be a false pregnancy? She used to let us put our hand in her nest even when she was asleep and pet her. Now we can't get within 15 feet of it. Her behavior reminds me of a mother bird protecting her nest. Right before I got on here my dh and I were discussing getting her fixed, in the event it is a false pregnancy. The only reason I would consider it is to relieve her of all this anxiety. She is clearly not the happy camper she was a month ago.

#3 We began feeding her insects. In fact wax worms and meal worms and grasshoppers are now her favorite food. Could the meat be making her more aggressive? If so should we stop?

#4 This also began right after Halloween during which I more than once wrestled a chocolate bar away from her. As per our policy,when I do this I give her another goodie ( usually a mini chocolate chip because she only trades like for like) in trade. Yes, I know chocolate is deadly to some animals, but I found out by accident that it has no ill affect on her, nor on the famous Kinder Squirrel, eater of two large stolen kinder chocolates each day. Could she have decided I was the goody bully during that time? I don't think so, because just now I saw her get into a cigar box of antique chess pieces and when I approached her with a nut she immediately turned over the goods.

Of the four changes, I am inclined to think it is #1 or #2 or a combination of the two.

What the heck do you all think is going on?

[4skwerlz]

This has turned into quite an interesting discussion, and you've made some good observations.

There have been so many good suggestions on this thread, and I think 4swerlz comments about aggression vs discipline are especially important. I know a lot of people's first reaction is to take it personally when they are bitten. We must never forget these are wild animals and nothing we do can ever change that ( now should it).

I have observed squirrels in the wild for over 11 years, beginning with one trio of sibs that each lived over a decade. I have a long porch that has feeders on it including one just outside a window a foot from where I sit. There's a lot of disciplining going on between mom and young, and between the more and the less dominant members of the community. Some squirrels back down and some never do, or take forever.

I've observed the same thing....a whole lot of disciplining going on. Like other social animals, they will periodically challenge the "rules," and hierarchies are reaffirmed, and sometimes changed, with every such encounter. For example, though mom squirrel is totally dominant over her young, at some point when the baby is old enough, he will challenge mom and not back down, and a new hierarchy is formed, with the baby moving up a notch in the pecking order.

We also learned the language, both to understand and to convey information. That helps a lot. I agree that you mustn't physically harm them or scream at them or spray them with water. Really, anything they regard as mean is counter productive.
Yes, you want to be part of their social hierarchy (at least one notch higher than the squirrel!), but you don't want to be viewed as an enemy, like a cat, a dog, a hawk, or a strange human would be.

What you want to work with is the fact that they are attentive. They will look you in the eye ( the opposite of what a dog will do) when they are being scolded and try to read you.
That's so true! Thinking about it, that is why our little discipline encounter cannot effectively take place until Henry has stopped, faced me, and received his scolding (aht-aht). If he didn't react to several aht-aht's--if he continued to challenge me, that's when he gets a swat as well. At that point, he definitely looks me in the eye, with a very searching look. As long as he is running away or avoiding me, he is refusing the discipline.

What we do when Schmootie is aggressive, is catch her and hold her head down ( usually hold it to our chest). We tell her NO (not shouting - that scares her - just a firm NO), and shake our heads and say "No biting." Firm but not loud. She looks us in the eye and listens, and for that we scratch her pants (her rump) and pet her head and keep telling her no biting as we walk out to her screen porch, where she must do some time out. Usually it takes quite a trick to get her back in her room but when she has been scolded she gets off immediately and goes to eat or sit on a chair, etc. so I know she 'gets it'.
The last resort for Henry is the holding down--mom does that too, and it works--but he REALLY hates it and I save that for truly, truly naughty behavior. I think one or two times in the past he nipped too hard and then ran away from the discipline, circled back and did it again, harder! Now this was a clear challenge. So we have a kind of escalation of discipline: the aht-aht, the swat, and the holding down. Henry probably gets one "aht-aht" a day, and maybe one swat a week. It's been a while since I've had to hold him down.

As I mentioned, Henry has a particular thing he does that tells me VERY clearly that the message is received and acknowledged. Once he stops, and we are face to face, he looks at my face with a very searching look, I put my finger right near his face (this is telling him, in clear body language, that I'm not afraid of him biting me), and he will place his mouth and then his paw on my finger for a moment very quickly and gently, similar to what they call the "greeting kiss.

I get the opposite response to many of you with nuts. In fact we use them to keep from making her mad, and I just discovered that if she is in a foul mood we can give her a nut and she will hold it. So long as she's got it she can't bite us and she won't drop the nut to bite. So I keep nuts in my pocket at all times and I think they have kept me from getting bitten.

It is interesting that the biting has come up though - it has not been a frequent topic here that I've seen. Is everyone being bitten more? Because...
Henry has never bitten me or anyone else hard enough to break the skin. Even strangers can handle him. I think you have to pick your battles; Henry gets away with a lot, but I drew a very firm line at biting, early on. It is the one thing I will not--absolutely will not--tolerate. I make a distinction between "playbiting" which is allowed and we both enjoy, and real biting, which for me means leaving two little dents in my skin. Henry gauges his biting with amazing precision. He can be playbiting me hundreds of times while we wrestle and play, but he KNOWS the one time he goes too far and dents my skin....and he will immediately dart away with a naughty expression on his face.

Schmootie has never bitten - not even once, in the 1 3/4 years that we have had her. Not us, and not strangers. She would woof and nip bare feet, but not hard. Until two weeks ago. Now we've all been bitten except my 13 yo, who is her primary Mom ( I'm a close second). It came on VERY suddenly, and is a constant issue. She's buried 5 pounds of nuts so far and seems FRANTIC to find and bury or rebury more. I found the comments about not allowing this interesting. But she's always buried nuts, so what will she do with all her free time?
We are all learning as we go here, but I just have a feeling that stashes are a bad idea. Stashes = territory, and all territory must be defended; that is their instinct. Let her "stash" her nuts; just remove them once a day.

She's also gone from being off her feed to ravenous. Almost insatiable. She's eating everything in sight - even her own poops and paper. This squirrel has never been a big eater. She's almost a nervous wreck, running around burying and growling and woofing and biting, and wantonly destroying things - she never did that before. As squirrels go, other than eating problems she has been a model citizen. Is Schmootie eating rodent block or squirrel blocks as 70-80% of her diet? There is no other way for them to get the nutrition they need. Sounds like there could be a nutritional element here; we've seen a number of cases where it caused behavioral changes.

She also seems hyper and less interested in affection - never comes to us for it, and doesn't stay long when we catch her. She's always been such a love glutton. She's also knocking large items over - never did that before. The main interaction she wants form us now is wrestling. It's like she's found testosterone.

She seems to be beginning to respond to our discipline efforts but we're wondering why this happened all of a sudden at this age?

Here are the things that have changed recently:

#1 we're remodeling the kitchen and dining room, which are part of her roaming grounds, and this behavior began not long after we pulled out the carpet ( which probably smelled good and stinky) They don't like change, but IMO, that shouldn't cause a permanent alteration in her behavior.

#2 She just went through being in heat. Could this be a false pregnancy? She used to let us put our hand in her nest even when she was asleep and pet her. Now we can't get within 15 feet of it. Her behavior reminds me of a mother bird protecting her nest. Right before I got on here my dh and I were discussing getting her fixed, in the event it is a false pregnancy. The only reason I would consider it is to relieve her of all this anxiety. She is clearly not the happy camper she was a month ago.

#3 We began feeding her insects. In fact wax worms and meal worms and grasshoppers are now her favorite food. Could the meat be making her more aggressive? If so should we stop?

#4 This also began right after Halloween during which I more than once wrestled a chocolate bar away from her. As per our policy,when I do this I give her another goodie ( usually a mini chocolate chip because she only trades like for like) in trade. Yes, I know chocolate is deadly to some animals, but I found out by accident that it has no ill affect on her, nor on the famous Kinder Squirrel, eater of two large stolen kinder chocolates each day. Could she have decided I was the goody bully during that time? I don't think so, because just now I saw her get into a cigar box of antique chess pieces and when I approached her with a nut she immediately turned over the goods.

Of the four changes, I am inclined to think it is #1 or #2 or a combination of the two.

What the heck do you all think is going on?

The girls definitely get weird and moody at those times. However, I suspect everything you mentioned is incidental. My impression is that Schmootie is trying redefine the rules here by enlarging her territory. I would nip this in the bud! When Henry and Hazel were younger, I allowed them no territory of their own. Mom's hand came into their nestbox frequently. Eventually, I decided to allow Henry to "own" his nestbox, except for the area right inside the opening. I can reach in about 5 inches to pet him--one millimeter further and he will give a little lunge and growl. I figured he needed to have SOME territory that was his.

[Peaches]

There have been so many good suggestions on this thread, and I think 4swerlz comments about aggression vs discipline are especially important. I know a lot of people's first reaction is to take it personally when they are bitten. We must never forget these are wild animals and nothing we do can ever change that ( now should it).
Thank you, this is exactly what I was trying to say but you said it better.

I have observed squirrels in the wild for over 11 years, beginning with one trio of sibs that each lived over a decade. I have a long porch that has feeders on it including one just outside a window a foot from where I sit. There's a lot of disciplining going on between mom and young, and between the more and the less dominant members of the community. Some squirrels back down and some never do, or take forever.
I observed a very cute and funny example of this two months ago. I was driving home and came upon 3 young squirrels playing in the middle of the road. I stopped the car and got out, I said "what are you guys doing out of the nest? if your mother finds out she's gonna kick your fuzzy little butts" Right at that moment mom came running from across the street screaming and yelling at them, they ran like heck back to the tree as mom caught up and nipped them all in the butt. I yelled "I told you so" to them and as I turned to go back to my car I realized there were people laughing at me from the other side of the street lol.

I get the opposite response to many of you with nuts. In fact we use them to keep from making her mad, and I just discovered that if she is in a foul mood we can give her a nut and she will hold it. So long as she's got it she can't bite us and she won't drop the nut to bite. So I keep nuts in my pocket at all times and I think they have kept me from getting bitten.
You are right, they will not drop the nut to bite you and cannot bite you with the nut in their mouths however one of mine uses his nails to rip my hand apart as he takes the nut from me. I think he's saying "give me that nut and get your hand away from it" Once he gets the nut he runs around with it shoving it in everyones faces (humans and squirrels) and growling. He is the only one who is food aggressive and I have not been able to break him of this. I have noticed that this behavior is only present in the largest, oldest male in the house. Once the dominate male is released the next in line to the throne becomes the aggressor.


It is interesting that the biting has come up though - it has not been a frequent topic here that I've seen. Is everyone being bitten more? Because...
My 6 yr old female gray and my friends 3 yr old flier both go into heat at the same time. They both go in and out of heat over the course of six to eight weeks. It sounds to me like your baby went back into heat again. They start stashing food franticly in preparation of the upcoming babies. Its not a false pregnancy just preparation. In the wild she would get pregnant with every heat so they just go ahead and get ready for babies. Remember in the wild they go into heat and a male would mate with them within a few days, in captivity they will ovulate till they copulate during mating season.
I'm not sure about having her spayed though, I dont like putting them through elective surgery, The risk of complications is too great.
Anyway I hope I cleared up what I was trying to get at in my first post. What most humans consider mild discipline, a squirrel is likely to see as an act of aggression.

[acorniv]

This has turned into quite an interesting discussion, and you've made some good observations.

Thanks - just playing it by ear and calling it like I see it, but like you mentioned, after a while you see more than just a generic bunch of squirrels randomly running around, You begin to see a community - or in my yard, it's more of a city :jump . We've got our intowners and our commuters ( those who cross the road to our yard).

The thing about showing dominance but never predatory or threatening behavior - that can be tricky. We're not prey animals and it does not come naturally to us to think like one. It's imperative that we put ourselves in our squirrel's shoes. How would we feel if something chased us? Like we're about to be eaten. How does it feel to have something much louder than ourselves make angry noises? Really scary.

I did consider nutrition, (forgot to list that one). She's not itchy like animals get from MBD. I'm working really hard on that block diet, with, as you know, less than perfect results. I've made 3 batches. The first got too brown and only our wild opossum would touch it (not even the wild squirrels would). The second batch was pretty close to exact. I've even spread nutella on it - she won't touch it. The third batch was modified - pecans instead of peanut butter, no cod liver oil and none of the B complex that stinks. I also rolled them in a mixture of pecans and wheat bran because I knew she likes those things. No go. But she gave it a good sniff anyway. After several rejections I crumbled up five of them and put them in the microwave with 3 chocolate chips and then stirred it, and let it cool. She wolfed it down.

The goal now is to add the smelly things back in increments until she tolerates them, and then begin reducing the chocolate. I also want to see if I can find vitamin B complex that doesn't smell as strong.

I tried taking away almost all her other food to get her to try these things, and she just got angry and would not eat. That may be part of the problem and may be why she is eating like there is no tomorrow right now. I think it is best to try taking everything away at a time when she isn't already stressed. Like Spring. She was such a pussycat last spring.

Other foods she is currently gobbling down are sweet potatos, eggplant and worms. She gets nuts but she has to crack them and doesn't often bother. She loves insects and I mixed them into her ground up block too. As for what percentage is block - we're probably at 50% at this point. It's a struggle, but I'm not giving up.

I forgot to mention a few other things. One is that she used to sneak downstairs and could squeeze under the door into the garage, where she set up camp in our kayaks. She loves napping down there, but if someone opens the garage door there is nothing to stop her from running out. So I put a new kickplate on the door and now she can't get down there. To our surprise, she took that in stride - tested and chewed a couple times but with no conviction. So I don't think it is the issue.

The other thing is that when Schmootie bites it is not what you folks are describing. She is a wolverine! :soapbox . She sinks in and holds on and won't let go. It scares the bleep out of everyone but me when this happens. I must have encountered wolverines in a former life, LOL. I go to the C A L M place when it's me. My husband got it and shook his hand to get her off - just a gut reaction :sanp3 . She let go before she was hurt than goodness. His whole hand swelled up ( I think she tore muscle) and there was considerable blood. Whenever she bites she seems to find an artery. That or maybe we're all hemophilliacs, because we've all bled a lot. I'm sure that incident didn't improve her attitude.

Everyone got strict instructions on what to do if it happens to them. First, knock before entering the living room area so if she is out her buddy people can catch her and put her in her room. If they are bitten they need to get her to release her grip and then hold her head down until someone can come get her and put her in time out. Today my 17 yo son got it. He put his thumb and forefinger behind her jaw and gently squeezed until her jaw relaxed and she released him. By then I had caught her. He was concerned that he'd squished her head too much but said he had to - she would not release until he did. He has had extensive first aid and wilderness first aid training and knew what frame of mind he needed to get into, even though he was in pain and he understood about squeezing on the jaw. DH just had this same training, but didn't seem to learn as well!

So I took her out, and she was really mad and would not let me leave. This is another thing. She chases us and bites at us when we go into her room and again when we try to leave! So I held her to my chest and talked to her until she calmed down. DD brought me a pair of leather gloves, which I put on. and then I offered Schmootie a nut. She snatched it, woofed and lunged. Taking a cue from you, I tapped her on the shoulder, and then just to show her who is boss, I started to touch her, when she suddenly stuck her butt in the air and made moon eyes at me. Like I was one hot looking boy squirrel. I scratched her back and apologized for her sorry lot in life, and she let me pet her for a long time. But as soon as I took my hand away she wanted to duke it out with me again. Definitely testing the new system!

About holding her head down. Long before we heard moms do this, we were doing it to rock her to sleep. We hold her to our chest, sway back and forth, and sing her a lullaby. She typically lays her head down and we scratch her in all the favorite squirrlie places. So when it comes to disciplining her, the way we've interpreted it is we are calming her. It may be that is what moms are doing too. Recently she cries when we do it sometimes, and we've thought it was because she was in the throws of a tantrum and didn't want to be calmed down. But I don't want to comfort her for biting, so I like this shoulder boping.

We're also trying to have rescue remedy on hand. We used to rub some in her ears before feeding her formula because any noise made her stop eating. It should help her overall emotional state.

Once My dd startled Schmootie when she was asleep and Schmootie bit her. Sophia cried out and ran to her dad, and I went to see what was going on with Schmootie, because this had never happened before. I found her wringing her hands in dispair - just distraught. Have you seen this hand wringing? I called DD back out and showed Schmootie it was alright, and Schmootie took her hand and looked it over very carefully, grooming it as she went. Then she grooms the hand very carefully. Now though - it's bite and run and come back and bite again, if she gets a notion. Big difference in a few months.

We had an idea for stashes that we have not yet tried, but I think it might be the answer. We own a big strawberry pot - the sort that is 30" high and has pockets all over it's sides. I was going to dig up dirt ( we never spray) and fill the pot put the whole thing inside a tub to reduce the mess and give it to her to stash her nuts in. It would be more natural and offer her lots of places to hid. It would also give her a place that was hers alone. What do you think of this?

Schmootie lives in a converted screen porch that has one full wall of books, plus low book cases all around and a shelf of books all along the other three walls. We homeschool and this is our library. It is also one of my two studios. I have tubs and cabinets full of craft supples. She can build nests behind the books, and she has one main nest we don't often invade - only to check it for warmth on occasion, and to reclaim things that are truly not allowed. We did not plan for her to be loose - she simply spent more and more time out there and we finally stopped putting her in at night. Probably a mistake, but it's done. The damage so far has been minimal, but the way it is going that won't last. Our house is coming apart at the seams with 'stuff' that I need to be putting on ebay, but with Lil Miss Handful that's not getting done, and until it is we can't' manage better accommodations for her.

And there is one last problem. It's big. My elderly FIL is moving here from halfway across the country. We have to leave to pick him up next week, and will need a pet sitter. Our usual sitter is unavailable so we have hired a life long friend of my son's who has also taken wilderness first aid. He's very level headed, loves his cat, and isn't daunted by the idea of caring for a parrot, four cats ( one of them is a raving lunatic, two are recently reformed ferals and the fourth can only poop outdoors) plus this wild animal that even we can't handle these days. The chance for something to go wrong is astronomical, but we have no choice. Someone has to drive the second car back and I am the only one available.

I plan to give our sitter a choreography for how he is to feed everyone. He feeds the cats first, and as soon as they are all eating he feeds Schmootie - at a table just inside the door to her room. He does not go in or try to handle her, and he will need to be sly to beat her attempts to get out, because she will refuse to get back in. Once she is secure, he feeds the parrot and plays with the cats. Or at least, the water loving, ball fetching lunatic, who will need all the attention he can muster. Each time he is to phone us to let us know he got in and out safely. We've got an emergency backup, just in case, but she doesn't know squirrels either. I really don't know what to do other than that. We'll be gone a week, and no matter how stressed out I will be about this, I've got an elder who is even more stressed about giving up his familiar life, and I'll have to focus on that.

Talk about poor timing. :osnap

[acorniv]

[QUOTE=Peaches]Thank you, this is exactly what I was trying to say but you said it better.

Well, aren't you nice :-). Actually I thought you did fine, and FWIW, when I read 4Sqwerls post I didn't thin she was referring to you at all, so I'm glad you understand that now.

That was a cute story. Kids are kids everywhere, and that trio sounded no different than people kids.

Schmootie will attack us if she thinks we are going to take her nut, but then guess what she does with it? Buries it on our person :crazy

I am convinced hormones are at least part of Schmootie's problem. But being in heat puts stress on the body and that may affect the nutrition she is needing, too. Plus we are making changes and so it may be a triple whammy. I just hope we can get her past this.

[4skwerlz]

The thing about showing dominance but never predatory or threatening behavior - that can be tricky. We're not prey animals and it does not come naturally to us to think like one. It's imperative that we put ourselves in our squirrel's shoes. How would we feel if something chased us? Like we're about to be eaten. How does it feel to have something much louder than ourselves make angry noises? Really scary.
I think as long as you are using their "language" they understand you are enforcing the hierarchy, and have not become a predator.

I did consider nutrition, (forgot to list that one). She's not itchy like animals get from MBD. I'm working really hard on that block diet, with, as you know, less than perfect results. ..... After several rejections I crumbled up five of them and put them in the microwave with 3 chocolate chips and then stirred it, and let it cool. She wolfed it down.

The goal now is to add the smelly things back in increments until she tolerates them, and then begin reducing the chocolate. I also want to see if I can find vitamin B complex that doesn't smell as strong. This should work, in time. You can purchase Vitamin B that doesn't smell, online. I believe it is microencapsulated, but I'm not sure that will last through the baking process. I've tasted the blocks and they don't taste bitter or fishy to me, but of course their taste buds are much better than ours.

I tried taking away almost all her other food to get her to try these things, and she just got angry and would not eat. That may be part of the problem and may be why she is eating like there is no tomorrow right now. I think it is best to try taking everything away at a time when she isn't already stressed. Like Spring. She was such a pussycat last spring. Of course removing her stashes made her mad; everything makes her mad right now. She is the boss and controls everything. Eating her own poops isn't normal and definitely suggests she needs some extra nutrition. Once she's getting the nutrients she needs, hopefully the poop-eating will stop.

The other thing is that when Schmootie bites it is not what you folks are describing. She is a wolverine! :soapbox . She sinks in and holds on and won't let go. It scares the bleep out of everyone but me when this happens. I must have encountered wolverines in a former life, LOL. I go to the C A L M place when it's me. My husband got it and shook his hand to get her off - just a gut reaction :sanp3 . She let go before she was hurt than goodness. His whole hand swelled up ( I think she tore muscle) and there was considerable blood. Whenever she bites she seems to find an artery. That or maybe we're all hemophilliacs, because we've all bled a lot. I'm sure that incident didn't improve her attitude. I was truly bitten by Hazel hours before she died--she wasn't her normal self obviously, and reverted to wild instincts. I was amazed by how effortlessly she bit right through the fingernail, her teeth meeting in my finger bone. The damage they can do is pretty impressive. It was frightening and traumatic--bleeding and pain like you wouldn't believe from such a small animal. So I know what a real bite is. And that's why I have drawn such a strict line with Henry on biting. Nonetheless, as you say they are wild animals, and some day I might inadvertently frighten Henry or push him too far, and he could bite me. I know he'd be very sorry afterwards, and it would be my fault.

Everyone got strict instructions on what to do if it happens to them. First, knock before entering the living room area so if she is out her buddy people can catch her and put her in her room. If they are bitten they need to get her to release her grip and then hold her head down until someone can come get her and put her in time out.....

So I took her out, and she was really mad and would not let me leave. This is another thing. She chases us and bites at us when we go into her room and again when we try to leave! So I held her to my chest and talked to her until she calmed down. DD brought me a pair of leather gloves, which I put on. and then I offered Schmootie a nut. She snatched it, woofed and lunged. Taking a cue from you, I tapped her on the shoulder, and then just to show her who is boss, I started to touch her, when she suddenly stuck her butt in the air and made moon eyes at me. Like I was one hot looking boy squirrel. I scratched her back and apologized for her sorry lot in life, and she let me pet her for a long time. But as soon as I took my hand away she wanted to duke it out with me again. Definitely testing the new system!

Okay, you know I'm certainly NO kind of expert here, although I do my best to understand things. But I'm convinced that Schmootie now considers herself the boss squirrel, and is enlarging her territory to include most of your home. The boss squirrel controls who comes in to the territory, who leaves, how close they can come to food or stashes, and will even defend the best branches and good eating places. And she is reinforcing this with bites. Females seem to be more territorial than males anyhow, and her coming into season might have made things worse, but is not IMO the root cause. I believe you're heading down a road that ends with Schmootie needing to be released. I don't know whether this can be changed now, but I believe if you intend to keep Schmootie as a pet, you have to try.

About holding her head down. Long before we heard moms do this, we were doing it to rock her to sleep. We hold her to our chest, sway back and forth, and sing her a lullaby. She typically lays her head down and we scratch her in all the favorite squirrlie places. So when it comes to disciplining her, the way we've interpreted it is we are calming her. It may be that is what moms are doing too. Recently she cries when we do it sometimes, and we've thought it was because she was in the throws of a tantrum and didn't want to be calmed down. But I don't want to comfort her for biting, so I like this shoulder boping. Henry will also often "revert" to babyhood after discipline, or when anything scary happens. He does this by climbing inside the mousecoat, which is his security blanket. I think this is not a reward as such, but a "reminder" of the mommy/baby relationship and THEREFORE also a reinforcer of that hierarchy, when mom was definitely top squirrel.

Once My dd startled Schmootie when she was asleep and Schmootie bit her. Sophia cried out and ran to her dad, and I went to see what was going on with Schmootie, because this had never happened before. I found her wringing her hands in dispair - just distraught. Have you seen this hand wringing? I called DD back out and showed Schmootie it was alright, and Schmootie took her hand and looked it over very carefully, grooming it as she went. Then she grooms the hand very carefully. Now though - it's bite and run and come back and bite again, if she gets a notion. Big difference in a few months.

We had an idea for stashes that we have not yet tried, but I think it might be the answer. We own a big strawberry pot - the sort that is 30" high and has pockets all over it's sides. I was going to dig up dirt ( we never spray) and fill the pot put the whole thing inside a tub to reduce the mess and give it to her to stash her nuts in. It would be more natural and offer her lots of places to hid. It would also give her a place that was hers alone. What do you think of this?
Having some real dirt to dig in should be fun for Schmootie. Henry has one in his room, but he still stashes things all over the house. Again, just my ideas, but on thinking about this some more, I believe the stashes are not the problem per se, but the real issue is dominance and territory. I think she defends those stashes because they're in HER territory and she considers herself top squirrel now. Henry caches the nuts I give him in all the corners, in my printer, and so on, and although I do more or less keep them picked up, many remain for a long time. He does not defend them in any way, but I think that's because none of my house is his territory, except for the back of his nestbox, and Jay and I are the boss squirrels, not him.

We did not plan for her to be loose - she simply spent more and more time out there and we finally stopped putting her in at night. Probably a mistake, but it's done. Quite a few of our squirrels have the run of the house. I don't think that's the problem, as long as it's YOUR house, not hers.

And there is one last problem. It's big. My elderly FIL is moving here from halfway across the country. We have to leave to pick him up next week, and will need a pet sitter. .....I really don't know what to do other than that. We'll be gone a week, and no matter how stressed out I will be about this, I've got an elder who is even more stressed about giving up his familiar life, and I'll have to focus on that.

Oh my, with a trip coming up and your FIL moving in, you really have a problem on your hands here. As you know, a change in hierarchy doesn't happen without a fight...maybe a series of fights. And will need to be reinforced at intervals. I think a lot of people who raise a baby squirrel think that the natural authority that comes with being mom will last forever, and when their sweet baby gets a little older and suddenly challenges mom, just as he would in the wild, they're surprised and don't know what to do. And before you know it, their "baby" has become the boss.

[acorniv]

Thanks for all of your comments and advice. I think you're right on the money and will address nutrition and dominance in as thorough and consistent way as we can. I'm a mom of two great kids, one of whom was really challenging (had sensory issues, so some real problems) when he was young. So I do know the ropes in that area. DD is great with her and is following my lead to the letter, and DS is too. DH has to be reminded ( old dog that he is, LOL) but we're trying to keep them from contact with each other anyway, because he's always been one of the outsiders in her view. I'll let you know how it goes.

There's much to do before we leave that is not squirrel related but I will do whatever I can and we'll just take back up when I get back. One of the things we are doing is addressing storage, which will give her fewer places to stash, and I think we will be reducing the number of things she gets to stash also. As she takes on more block they should be less of a focal point for her anyway.

I think they get nutrition from dirt in the wild - around here, our dirt is loaded with iron. So the dirt to dig in could be good for that too. We have given her a pile to play with on occasion but not for a while.

Great tip on the B's. I know B's help with mood, so I want to get those in asap. I could crush them and add them when I crumble it up instead of cooking it.

BTW, I never had illusions about her staying tame - in fact I've been amazed that she has been so far. It's the suddenness that has puzzled me. But stress is often the catalyst for change, and that may well explain the way it happened.

:thumbsup :thankyou :thumbsup


Oh my, with a trip coming up and your FIL moving in, you really have a problem on your hands here. As you know, a change in hierarchy doesn't happen without a fight...maybe a series of fights.

[acorniv]

One last thought - since she will be confined to her room while we are gone, we will use that opportunity to ban stashing inside the greater living areas, thereby shrinking her territory. Making lemon-ade, if you will. That should help her understand that her room is just the one room.

[4skwerlz]

One last thought - since she will be confined to her room while we are gone, we will use that opportunity to ban stashing inside the greater living areas, thereby shrinking her territory. Making lemon-ade, if you will. That should help her understand that her room is just the one room.

That sounds like a good starting opportunity. When you get back, I would reclaim the rest of the house. Sound like you have it under control, but for what it's worth here's what I would do.

1. Decide on your series of escalating disciplines, maybe whatever sound you use first, then the holding down, then finally a swat. Perhaps when you hold her down as discipline, you could also pinch up the skin on the back of her neck, like a painless "bite." You might not even need the swat; maybe the holding down is enough...?

2. When you get back, keep everyone else in another room, then prepare for "battle." Let her out, and at the very first sign of growling, swatting, lunging, etc., use your disciplines. Go to different areas of the house. Do different things. And repeat the disciplines as necessary until it is clear that the house is yours, you can go anywhere in it and do anything, and you are the boss.

3. When you feel the time is right (I'm thinking this is best done in stages.) try it with you plus one other family member, and use your dominance to show her that she is also to behave with them.

4. In due time, I would then carry this procedure into her room, until you have reduced her territory to her nestbox.

Just some thoughts. Maybe this will give you some ideas. Good luck and let us know how things go. I feel SOOOO sorry for whoever is babysitting your little monster.:shakehead

[acorniv]

That sounds like a good starting opportunity. When you get back, I would reclaim the rest of the house. [QUOTE=4skwerlz]

Done :) I was just out in her room with her, to see what she thought of the dough to my latest batch of yum yum blocks (more on that in a minute) and she already had a different attitude. I know it could be luck, but this gives me a toe hold to reward her for good behavior with. She played gently ( play bit a lot but very gently, and ran around my body but no chain rattling ( you know that noise?) while she was on me, and no growling or woofing. She got down and woofed at my feet twice but stopped as soon as I said ACHT ACHT (borrowed that from you - new sound, got her attention - :thankyou ). Since she's always been a foot woofer this was an encouraging response. She let me pet her and generally interacted as if pleased to see me, which she has not done for two or three weeks. Even her effort to keep me from leaving was half hearted.

I came in and announced that we are not going to bring her in anymore, except specifically for cuddles in our laps. No more free run of the house, and definitely no more stashing indoors. We'll play it by ear and adjust the harshness of the rule as needed ( know how to do that - raised two people)

Laid out the new plan of action with each family member and got a very positive reception from all three of them. DH is usually pretty sure his way is just as good as mine, but this time he totally saw the logic behind my way.

My son thought of a way to protect his friend while sitting her. The doorway of her room has a book case on either side and over the door, so we can put up a jailer's feed door (nice thought, huh?) We have some plexiglass so he can see in and make sure she is okay, and make sure she is not standing there ready to toss him like a salad and eat him. We will begin doing this ourselves when we feed her so she will get used to the routine before we leave (we normally feed her further inside the room).

I found some less smelly B's in my cupboard, (yay!) so the only thing not in the block mix this time was cod liver oil. I substituted one tablespoon Nutella for nut butter ( she dislikes peanut so I used almond). Left out the vanilla too.

The mixture was goopy, but I've discovered I like it that way, and here is why: I keep a bowl with ground pecans, wheat bran and cocoa powder (the sweet sort) next to my bowl of goop. I grease my hands a little, take a pinch of goop and roll it in the dry mix. Then I can roll it into a tidy ball. It makes quite beautiful cookies, and the stuff she likes best is on the outside where she can be tantalized by it.

She sniffed the dough sample a lot and nibbled it a little, but did nt eat all of it. I put it in her empty worm bowl ( ICHTH!) so she'd have a good association with the gift and we'll see.

But she was only mildly interested in the results. They smell delicious to me, and the texture was very appealing. Our parrot ate his - these are the first he's touched. But not Schmootie ~sigh~. So I microwaved them with a chocolate chip and I think when she gets that 3 pm chocolate craving she will eat them.

[QUOTE=4skwerlz]

1. Decide on your series of escalating disciplines, maybe whatever sound you use first, then the holding down, then finally a swat. Perhaps when you hold her down as discipline, you could also pinch up the skin on the back of her neck, like a painless "bite." You might not even need the swat; maybe the holding down is enough...?[QUOTE=4skwerlz]

I like your acht acht + finger in the face method. Swat if needed, perhaps, but last night I got the sense it was about to turn into one of those power struggles nobody can win, so I left her, and that had the desired effect. I am not as comfortable using the holding down for both comfort and discipline. There is a fine line, you know? Sometimes when kids areo out of control holding them (combo hug and restraint) is jus tthe thing ( I know a lot about occupational therapy and proporectiption, so I actually understand the neurological whys of this) But I don't want her to come to think of it as a negative. Maybe we'll acht acht her and then if she is upset we can hold her to reassure her, and show a little dominance at the same time, but I want her to think of that as a warm fuzzy thing. And she definitely responds to the acht acht, so :thumbsup . Bottle that stuff and sell it at Chris's, LOL.


[QUOTE=4skwerlz] 2. When you get back, keep everyone e lse in another room, then prepare for "battle." [QUOTE=4skwerlz]

This is exactly what I just did in her room, and I'll repeat it any time we need to. So far I don't think we're that entrenched in bad girl behavior yet. It's not full time, so that's good. I'm so glad this only just started because I think we can nip it in the bud. I have confidence in my team, too.

[QUOTE=4skwerlz]3. When you feel the time is right (I'm thinking this is best done in stages.) try it with you plus one other family member, and use your dominance to show her that she is also to behave with them.[QUOTE=4skwerlz]

I've always done this with anyone who is not on her A list ( DD is #1, and I am #2). She lives with two B listers so this is an old pattern that does work for the most part. The times it doesn't is when they first walk into the room if she is closer to them than I am. I kind of have to stand between her and her mark.

[QUOTE=4skwerlz]4. In due time, I would then carry this procedure into her room, until you have reduced her territory to her nestbox.[QUOTE=4skwerlz]

I'm thinking of giving her the book case around the ceiling. Like she has the trees and I have the ground. If she should ever be released, this is a good way for her to view people anyway. Only she has to be taught she can't lunge at people from her tree top.

Oh, another thing. We are now keeping lightweight leather gloves in our pockets, and whenever we are near her, we wear them so that we can do the finger in the face thing with no bloody results. She likes the gloves, so that is good. Once we know she is under control we slip it off so she can see that it isn't just the glove she needs to respect.

[QUOTE=4skwerlz] I feel SOOOO sorry for whoever is babysitting your little monster.:shakehead

:shakehead I've got to make sure we come up with something that will work in his favor, because he will have his hands full with Babymilk, the craziest cat in the world. You people think squirrels are strange, HA! Babymilk was a 3 week old abuse rescue, who had little use of his back legs, severe dehydration and bad asthma when I got him as a foster. I didn't think he'd make it. but he did, and now at one year old he is enormous. He has super long red hair - we've measured 7" hairs on his tail. But it's silky - never mats, which is strange, and he has a passion for water. These are traits of a Turkish Van, which are also partly red, but there is no way with his beginnings he could have that rare a parentage, so we think he is one of those weird mutations that sometimes get developed into new breeds. I've never known a cat that was half as smart, and I've had cats all my life. He played with balloons as a kitten and quickly learned not to bite hard or use claws, so he never uses his claws. He runs around grabbing us and hugging us with huge arms that look a lot like an orangutans. He loves to hug us and hold us in those monkey arms. He has refused to acknowledge his back end weakness, and is always climbing and leaping onto whatever is highest in the room. The parrot cage, a foot form the ceiling, is a favorite spot, as is our mantle and my head board. In his pursuit of water he will do anything - he's figured out how to flush the toilet, and will soon master turning on faucets. Toilets MUST be closed, because he will fish - preferably during the flushing stage, when interesting objects swim around and around. He also fetches and usually has a little plastic strip off a milk jug in his mouth, hoping we'll toss it down the stairs or across the room for him. He will climb into tight holes, knick things down, and wind himself up in things. We have two other year old cats that are nothing like him, and he finds them boring. So there is no telling what he will get up to without someone entertaining him 24/7. I really wish we'd been able to find someone to stay here for the week. Of course after one night of Babymilk (he named himself by only responding to calls for formula) jumping up and down off the headboard onto them, or bringing milk rings to be tossed, they'd surely go running into the night anyway.

[Sciurus1]

I get the opposite response to many of you with nuts. In fact we use them to keep from making her mad, and I just discovered that if she is in a foul mood we can give her a nut and she will hold it. So long as she's got it she can't bite us and she won't drop the nut to bite. So I keep nuts in my pocket at all times and I think they have kept me from getting bitten.


Good obseravtion about a nut being a bribe, but it is not the same as when they are guarding nuts, being given one, which then focuses them on that nut, not the others at that moment. Both then are true, that is the matter or them guarding, and the matter of them being bribed, as to not bit you.

Years ago we had two girl squirrels, one that owned my husband, but respected me as Mama. One evening when the younger was about 3-4 years old, my husband went in to give her his usual kiss goodnight, but to his shock and dismay, she attacked him, biting him repeatedly on his hand! Apparently he had startled her, as well as being concerned over the other squirrel getting her nuts. In a day or so he tried again, without the stash in place, but she did the same thing, attacking him repeatedly. So I went in to speak to her, making eye contact, and using my voice seriously, but not loudly, without reaching to touch her, to which she responded by backing up and whimpering in submission. I then reached wide around her, coming in from her back to lift her out from the stomach, not from the back alone, as a predator does. to which she submitted, and didn't even try to bite me. As for my husband, I suggested that he call to her, allowing her to come to him at the entrance of her pen, which worked fine. After a couple of months he was able to again pet her in her nest, but then picked her up from below, with a guarding hand on the top. She liked that allot, and relaxed with her arms just hanging over his hand.

My husband also practiced removing the nut from her mouth later on, a dominance training that our older girl had by way of her sybling while growing up, that this younger girl had lacked. To see what I am referring to, check out Loopy Squirrel's thread on Tator and Rudy, in the video of them playing with an orange ball, taking it out of each others mouths, over and over again. It really worked, and though she was not as willing to let go of the nut by far as our older girl was, she did not bite my husband or me when we did it.

When it came to other foods, not then about her stash, or potential stash. One Fall afternoon, I offered the younger girl a rosehip, which she really was excited about it. When I went to give her a second one, before she had finished the first one, she pouched it, and bit me. I then learned with wild foods, it was best not to do that, or bother her while eating.

[acorniv]

[QUOTE=Sciurus1]Good obseravtion about a nut being a bribe, but it is not the same as when they are guarding nuts, being given one, which then focuses them on that nut, not the others at that moment. Both then are true, that is the matter or them guarding, and the matter of them being bribed, as to not bit you. [QUOTE=Sciurus1]

This is absolutely true. However Schmootie is nearly two years old and it is only in the past couple of weeks that she has felt the need to attack over her stashes. Previously she would occasionally rock forward and growl when we reach close while she is eating, but that's been it. When I've taken things from her she stamps her feet and growls and claws at me to get it back, but never has she bitten me - not even since this biting began. She understands I MEAN IT when that happens. I found her with an antique hat pin yesterday and she fought me long and hard for it, but never considered biting. I had hold of the stick part, and we just played tug of war until I was able to wriggle it out of her jaws. She had her feet against me for leverage - really quite funny, if it weren't for the sharp part. Once she gave in I gave her a treat. That seems to work, so long as I give it immediately. I'm a wood carver and I carve figures with heads the size of nuts, which take about 20 hours to make, so obviously I am protective of them. Obviously I don't have them out where she can find them normally, but if I've got a repair drying or have been photographing she sometimes finds them. So she knows by how protective I am that I have my stash too, and that I do not share it.

She really likes to be fed by hand, bite by bite, and DD indulges her in this way so food protection hasn't been a problem and neither have stashes been, except once in a while when she has a weird grumpy day.

I think she is thinking about babies, and is more protective on their behalf.
4Skwerlz talked about how they will challenge their own moms, and it would be logical for them to do that if they are pregnant themselves - protecting their own young (real or imagined) would take precedence over old loyalties. I think that is what has happened.

Thanks so much for detailing your body language in handling this. I will try those things if what we're doing so far fail us.

Today went quite well :alright.gif . She seemed relieved to be set in her place, much as a child is when much needed limits are set. I don't think she is a naturally dominant girl, and I think she has viewed us as dominant for the most part but recently has either had doubts or was testing the degree of it. I think she likes us being the dominant members of our trio. I also think her hormones backed off a little.

Whatever it was, she was, for the most part, her usual exceedingly sweet self today. She wanted me to pet her and not to stop, and when I tried she grabbed my hand and groomed me for a very long time. An apology? or an effort to cut a deal? But every once in a while she would run down and attack my feet. I had on crocs without socks and the little bugger kept trying to get me through the holes. It's the first time she's let me know she knows shoes are foot coverings. I wonder what she thinks of our wearing armor? She seems to get that I have the ultimate upper hand, since I've got foot and hand armor. Ha! tinfoil

The foot attacks allowed me to acht at her, and each time she'd run for higher land, occasionally rattling her chains, but not progressing into growls or woofs. She'd look at me and go back and try it again. I'd acht acht, and she'd run up and I'd hold her and pet her, and tell her no biting, we're friends. Then I'd offer a bit of food.

She is in the habit of checking out my pockets, and I now think this may be a dominance move. Stealing from my stashes, I think. She's always been welcome to those stashes, though - unlike my carving.

The comment about wild food (rose hips) was interesting. We give Schmootie a lot of wild food, and sometimes she does get really excited - and protective of these things. Bugs, especially. It is so weird to us that she thinks we'd want those things!

She never did eat the baked block but she did eat the dough. :thinking

:thankyou

[acorniv]

Another day gone by and Schmootie was sweet as pie all day :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

After I turned out her light I saw her with what I thought was a nut having a before bed snack, but it took a long time to eat it. I turned on the light and she tucked her food behind her back. She never does that. Went and looked, and sure enough, the little tease had squirrel block and didn't want me to know! :jump

[4skwerlz]

Another day gone by and Schmootie was sweet as pie all day :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

After I turned out her light I saw her with what I thought was a nut having a before bed snack, but it took a long time to eat it. I turned on the light and she tucked her food behind her back. She never does that. Went and looked, and sure enough, the little tease had squirrel block and didn't want me to know! :jump

That's fantastic! They just can't resist the squirrel blocks....muahmuahmuah..... Seriously, it's a wonderful relief when they eat them and you know they're getting the nutrition they need. No more fussing with "high calcium veggies" or dusting things with calcium. I'm really impressed you were also able to take back control on the dominance issue. Sounds like things are looking up for you and Schmootie on all fronts.:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

[acorniv]

That's fantastic! They just can't resist the squirrel blocks....muahmuahmuah..... Seriously, it's a wonderful relief when they eat them and you know they're getting the nutrition they need. No more fussing with "high calcium veggies" or dusting things with calcium. I'm really impressed you were also able to take back control on the dominance issue. Sounds like things are looking up for you and Schmootie on all fronts.:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

Thanks :D

I had a thought. We have recently found protein Schmootie really likes. I read that protein can affect sexual function, and wondered if it might have given her a hormone surge that made for a really nasty estrus period? And her behavior now is a combination of getting the message and subsiding hormones? Got any thoughts on this? If we get a repeat, we'll know how to deal with it anyway.

Today, instead of giving her much time in our main living area, we spent a lot of time in hers. She liked that and even let us clean up after her.

Progress. :multi

[Sciurus1]

The Squirrel I am talking about was at least 3 years old herself, not a juvenile, so it is normal to see a change like this. I call it the terrible twos, when they really come into their own as adult, and challenge you for dominance. They do become independent when released by their mothers at around 6 months, but considering they are the newbie on the block, and not dominant in their colony, this is not then unusual, but normal that at about 2 they really come into their own. In anycase, any squirrel no matter what age or sex, can become protective of their nuts, and so it is best not to allow them to accummulate a stash in captivity, but to clean out the stash periodically.


Having a large enough habitat lessens tension for a squrirel, feelign they have a space of their own, and the rest is yours, so as to NOT feel dominant over all your home. Having a large habitat stocked with branches, and a nest box, and toys and perches that mimics the wild in many aspect is essential for the welbeing of a squirrrel in captivity. I do not know if you have one or not, but if not, I do encourage you to build one for your squirrel. Considering that many members who have raised an orphan squirrel have built a release cage for them, that they use only for a few months, if not wintering them over in it, to build a cage/habitat for one's pet unreleasable squirrel, is a must. Squirrels requirie a large space, on average 8 Ft L ,by 5 ft high, by 4 ft wide if Foxers, and 6ft high, by 5 ft long, by 4 ft wide if an Eastern Gray. Some have a bit smaller, but then you cannot get in there with them to play with them. The cage/habitat allows them to climb safely, giving them the weight bearing activity that they need to grow healthy bones, and muscles. Without that and a proper diet they will be weak, even so one may not notice it. Having a proper diet and a sufficient habitat goes along way to reducing tension for the squirrel, as well as the handler maintaining dominance, so they realize they do not own your home.

If you do not allow stash to build up, and give your squirrel a sufficient habitat of it's own, as well as practice dominance techniques I have described, your squirrel will likely become less aggressive. Do know this is a test, to see who is dominant, so actively address it as such.

[Sciurus1]

Funny how they hide their food. I had a friend with a couple of non releaseables, that were brother and sister; when the brother got a nut one day, instead of eating it, he sat on it with his you know whats, just to keep it from his nest mate. Eventually he ate it after a few days. :crazy

[4skwerlz]

What Sciurus mentioned about taking things away from them...now I've never done that with a nut, though I do usually put my hand on Henry when he's got food or a nut, and he's not allowed to grrr at mommy then. HOWEVER, when he gets ahold of a pen, a lighter, or some other "treasure" I don't want chewed to pieces, I do take them away from him. I grab the object firmly, he will tug back, knowing what's coming, and when I "aht aht," he releases it. When Henry was at the vet for his broken arm, the vet picked him up in a towel and was giving him a sedative shot, and Henry of course, started to squirm madly. Not even thinking, I said "aht aht aht" pretty loudly, and he instantly stopped struggling. They all looked at me in wonder and I said "I think it means 'whatever you're doing, stop it'." They were impressed that I spoke "squirrel." The aht aht really does seem to work, doesn't it?

About the protein....all I know is that squirrels require a certain amount of protein in their diet--no more, no less. And it must be high-quality protein (i.e., all the amino acids in proper balance).

[Sciurus1]

In the Fall I watch the squirrels compete for nuts, some chasing others that get one, or chasing off others that want one. Yet in a week or so the squabbles stop, and it seems that one squirrel is on deck at a time, often with another just waiting in the wings as it were. Why this is, is in part due to having established dominance, they are then willing to wait for their chance at getting a nut, rather then chasing, or fighting for it, which for them is not in support of their survival.
Likewise, when a pet squirrel understands that Mama, or Papa are dominant, but they are still getting their nuts all the same, they see no reason to then challenge them over their nuts by lunging, roaring, or biting, but stand back. I recall many times seeing our squirrel go under a table, or into a corner, to emerge with a nut I didn't even know was there. We especially loved the fake burying of their nuts, a diversion to conceal where the nut was really buried. :rotfl

[Sciurus1]

I speak Squirrel too, and you are right, it does communicate 'no', for "Ah it, Ah it" is vocalization they make when they are protesting, whether being held, wanting to be let go of, or to get down, to taking away what they are holding in their mouth. As for making it loud, and more like us protesting, it does work on some squirrels that have been conditioned by having that employed to relate to stop what they are presently doing.

[SkwerlGirl]

I've tried to contact her to see if I can help, but if he's wilding up, he needs to be free, unless he's blind as a bat...

JMHO...:D