Extremely Paranoid now about MBD

[digiandchipper]

So I've seen what happened to Hammy and especially poor Chikito....now I am so worried whether I might miss something with Digi or Chip.......here is the thing: Digi and Chip sleep together, live together in their cage, are out together, eat together...well, you get the idea.I leave the squirrel block in the cage at night because they don't really like it and will only eat it if there is nothing else. Now, though, I am wondering if Chip is eating most of it and Dig not getting enough.

They also get about 1/4 cup warm esbilac every morn, kale and/or radicchio every day, rotation of carrots, radishes and broccoli; rotation of blueberries, mango and apple. (They do not get fruit every day, maybe two pieces two or three times a week.) They have pines cones, magnolia cones and branches all over the porch to discover and nibble. They get a few acorns very day and sometimes hickory nuts. They get things I forage like bottlebrush, beauty berries and mushrooms.

Their cage is on the screen porch and 1 hr of morning sun shines in, plus I let them out a MINIMUM of 3 hrs each day, usually more. They also have a FSL bulb in the light fixture near their cage.

Here is why I am worried: just today I noticed Digi's coat didn't look as good as usual. Right near the top both of her back legs, the fur looked kind of 'matty' and her tail didn't look as fluffed. (She is acting fine, eating, playing, fighting rough and tumble with Chipper and running all around.) As I said, though, with all the MBD deaths and illness, I am worried I might miss something, so I tried to get pics of her today so any of you could look at her and see if she looks okay. Maybe I should have posted this on their thread so you could compare other pics, but I thought this might be better seen.

Thanks in advance for any comments and advice.:grouphug

[Frickster]

I am right there with ya with the paranoia! Especially since the little princess will not touch ANYTHING that is GREEN OR LEAFY!

[digiandchipper]

Well, I've got them eating green and leafy but they hate ALL the squirrel block stuff - home made and store stuff (that's why I made that post on the For Sale/Trade section, remember?) I just really worry Chip is the only one eating it.

I'm so glad they still take a little esbilac, but I know it's not enough for complete nutrition. Worry, worry, worry...........

[foxsquirrels]

Hey Frickster and DC, I know you guys are doing everything possible to keep your squirrels safe and healthy. There is just so much we don't know about them. My squirrels won't touch rodent block of any kind . . . . even the good stuff. When they are just beginning to want to munch on something I crush up some of the rodent blocks and they will chew on them . . . Seem to even like them, then when they get anything else, the rodent blocks are history. This has been a very unusual year for squirrels, we have lost many squirrels too suddenly for all of them to have had MBD.

[4skwerlz]

Your squirrel looks like she is shedding, and getting her winter coat. They do this in the spring and in the fall.

She looks good, and as long as they're on Esbilac they are probably fine. However, they will be weaned soon, and you need to take better control of their diet so that in the future you will know they are getting proper nutrition. Clean out all food from the nestbox. Clean out all stashes, especially nuts. Give them a squirrel block each in the morning when they are hungry, then no other food until they've eaten them. Then give some healthy veggies. Then another rodent block in the late afternoon. (Morning and late afternoon are their major eating periods.) Then more healthy veggies once they've eaten those. If they're still getting Esbilac once a day, give that before bed. NO extra nuts until their diet is under control. Once your squirrels get used to the blocks, they will learn to LOVE them. It won't take long.

[philomycus]

:goodpost

even though Rocky's blood work showed no signs of MBD, I think a little paranoia is in order for all of us. If they get hungary enough, they will eat the rodent block. They just might refuse it for a few days, but stick to your guns!

[digiandchipper]

Thanks, guys....I'm going to make a fresh batch today and clean out their nest box and all their stash areas (they are gonna be so ticked!). If we're going to do this, I want to do it right so won't even consider the storebought stuff this time. They can get used to the homemade and that is that then.

Will start on your plan, 4S, immediately. And thanks for the comments on the coat - that is a relief. I tried to take as clear a pic as I could.

:thankyou :thankyou :thankyou guys, again!

[lookmomchickens]

I'm paranoid as well... :shakehead

I DID however get Ike to actually eat one of the Kaytee Forti-Diet blocks this morning b/c I didn't have the others (kitchen challenged)... I melted a little bit of peanut butter in the microwave and put a tiny bit on my fingers... then I smeared an EXTREMELY light layer (basically to just get the smell/taste" of peanut butter on it... he went straight for it and ate most of it which he usually never touches. I also posted in the for sale/trade section... being kitchen challenged sucks. :rotfl

...sorry if I'm thread jacking.

[Charles Chuckles]

OK I give up...what is MBD? I am guessing by the posts it has to do with young squirrels and nutrition. And the amount of greens. In that case I am ok with Charley he loves spinach and fruits etc. He was 4 around the end of July. He is indoors however he has windows all around and he goes outside with me daily, we live in Fl. so he get's his share of sunshine year-round. Is there anything I should know about this (Illness)?:thinking Thanks CharleyChuckles mommy

[foxsquirrels]

MBD stands for Metabolic Bone Disease. Here are a couple of links for you to read about it:http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=13693 (http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13693)


http://www.squirreltales.org/#Section-H (http://www.squirreltales.org/#Section-H)

Hope this helps!

[island rehabber]

When it comes to a disease as evil as MBD a little paranoia can be a good thing.
I think all of you are on the right track with getting your squirrels' diets up to par, and getting them on 4S's wonderful rodent blocks :thumbsup. D&C, don't forget that Florida squirrels' fur is not as thick or as long as northern squirrels', since they don't need it to be. :)

[Ardilla]

*raises hand*

I'm paranoid now, too. I don't have to worry about the sunlight issue because Penny is a flyer, but I am now obsessing over her diet and behavior.

MBD is such an insidious disease, and I had never heard of it before reading about it here. I am so thankful for this board and the expertise that is shared.

[4skwerlz]

As long as your squirrel is eating rodent block (or squirrel blocks) as at least 70% of their diet, you don't have to worry. There is no other way to get the nutrients they need (especially calcium and protein).

All the high-calcium veggies in the world aren't enough: Your squirrel would have to eat 9 entire heads of endive (one of the highest-calcium veggies) per week to get the minimum calcium requirement.

The healthy veggies add important nutrition, but they are NOT enough.

The other important item is natural food items from outside.

Fruit, nuts, and other treats are optional. Wild nuts like acorns, hickory, and black walnuts are the healthiest nuts.

[Anne]

Digi,
Your squirrels look healthy and adorable. Some of mine here are sporting shorter looking patches of gray on their hind legs. Just usual getting ready for the weather changes. How did your babies like the huge scones? I get about 50-50 here sometimes.
I have news from Tampa and will call you tomorrow and share.
Anne:grouphug

[digiandchipper]

Digi,
Your squirrels look healthy and adorable. Some of mine here are sporting shorter looking patches of gray on their hind legs. Just usual getting ready for the weather changes. How did your babies like the huge scones? I get about 50-50 here sometimes.
I have news from Tampa and will call you tomorrow and share.
Anne:grouphug


LOVED the scones!!! Wish they loved the squirrel block as much:shakehead Thanks for comment about their coats...makes me feel better that other 'locals' are looking kind of the same:) Can't wait to hear your news!:hyper :grouphug

You and Chaz take care - heard it's supposed to get C H I L L Y around here:eek:

[Ardilla]

What's the difference between the scones and the squirrel block?

Are they appropriate for flyers?

[4skwerlz]

What's the difference between the scones and the squirrel block?

Are they appropriate for flyers?

The critter scones are healthy treats. The squirrel blocks are homemade rodent blocks that are nutritionally complete.

[Ardilla]

Thanks 4Skwelz :)

[island rehabber]

Thanks, GB....even I was confused about that one :sanp3 :)

[baby_chikito]

hey sorry if i got you scard now...about MBD...I think as long as they get good calcium everyday they should be fine..sounds like you know what you doing with your little squirrels...sorry i havtn been home in 2 days so i havnt been on in a while...sure everything will be ok.. you sounds like a really good mommy

[digiandchipper]

Thanks, sweetie....you didn't get me scared - there have been a LOT of things like this happening this fall - it just made me worry - you didn't!!!

I am trying but you know those little babies can be stubborn about what they eat! And sneaky, too! So I have to keep a much better eye on them now that they don't drink as much formula!

I made them new squirrel block yesterday and they are not happy that they didn't get extra goodies, but they BOTH nibbled on them a little. Digi didn't as much and then she just ran around like a crazy girl:multi

I hope in the morning she will be more hungry and will eat them better.

Thanks for checking in on us!:grouphug

[baby_chikito]

yea they can hide the food....I know how that was..I find food when I clean the cage and be hard headed... but ok...:-).....with a good eye watchin them and what they eat they should be fine...:)

[4skwerlz]

Thanks, sweetie....you didn't get me scared - there have been a LOT of things like this happening this fall - it just made me worry - you didn't!!!

I am trying but you know those little babies can be stubborn about what they eat! And sneaky, too! So I have to keep a much better eye on them now that they don't drink as much formula!

I made them new squirrel block yesterday and they are not happy that they didn't get extra goodies, but they BOTH nibbled on them a little. Digi didn't as much and then she just ran around like a crazy girl:multi

I hope in the morning she will be more hungry and will eat them better.

Thanks for checking in on us!:grouphug

Some squirrels take a few days to decide they love the blocks. I'm confident your two will learn to like them too. Especially now that their treats and stashes have been removed! Good mommy! :thumbsup

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

As 4s had stated sometimes it takes a little time but they will come around.
:thumbsup

[Al's mom]

How about dipping some fruit or other "treats" in Rep-cal or another source of calcium, just so you could be sure they were getting calcium, and yes I give the squirrel blocks first thing, and Al will eat them, but soon gets fussy( he's like,:thinking where is that squirrel-crack that you people call pecans?). You know what, too bad Al, that's breakfast.

[4skwerlz]

How about dipping some fruit or other "treats" in Rep-cal or another source of calcium, just so you could be sure they were getting calcium, and yes I give the squirrel blocks first thing, and Al will eat them, but soon gets fussy( he's like,:thinking where is that squirrel-crack that you people call pecans?). You know what, too bad Al, that's breakfast.

Calcium alone isn't enough. They need the protein, vitamin D, vitamin A, and other nutrients that they will only get in rodent block or squirrel blocks. You have to be firm. No other food, especially nuts, until they eat their rodent blocks.

[DaleJrmom2]

I have been giving Elissa 4 to 5 a day and sometimes i find thme in her cage hidden.......so i dont give her anything until she eats her rodent block......is that ok?

[JLM27]

I have a question because I am curious, not because I am challenging anyone's opinion. I do not have an inside squirrel (yet) so I am just ignorant. What I want to know is, if ONLY rat block home made or bought will do to get them enough calcium, then how on EARTH do they get enough calcium in the wild? What are they eating in my backyard that would be that rich in calcium?

Jillmjs

[island rehabber]

I have a question because I am curious, not because I am challenging anyone's opinion. I do not have an inside squirrel (yet) so I am just ignorant. What I want to know is, if ONLY rat block home made or bought will do to get them enough calcium, then how on EARTH do they get enough calcium in the wild? What are they eating in my backyard that would be that rich in calcium?

Jillmjs
The answer is, We Don't Know.
That's why keeping squirrels healthy as pets or non-releasable rehab residents is SO tricky and scary. Out in the wild, most of a squirrel's diet is made up of plant fiber and they get their nutrients from bark, roots, stems, twigs, buds and other parts of plants and trees. Most of the year they have no access to nuts or acorns, THAT'S WHY we don't want to be giving them nuts every day of their lives -- it's unnatural for them. They also get nutrients directly from the soil as they are eating these things, or digging up their buried stash. They also eat bones and bird eggs, and somehow with all this they manage to get the high levels of calcium required for such tiny, thin bones to leap and bounce and even fall great distances without injury. We don't really know how they do it, and their diet changes from season to season and geographical area to geographical area. It's enough to make you nuts. :D

[acorniv]

What are they eating in my backyard that would be that rich in calcium?Jillmjs

I have spent a full year pulling over and parking and watching squirrels every where I go. What I want to know is what is their full and complete diet. I have also read a LOT of books, and here is my conclusion:

It's insect exoskeletons and dirt, mostly. They run across dirt, dig in it roll in it, throw it up in the air and delight in it, and then they bath themselves and ingest it. I sometimes bring a big bowl of dirt in the house and Schmootie has a party. But she only likes fresh dirt. Once it's sat for a day it's no good. Our deep South dirt also has a lot of iron, and some dirt has worms. All good yummy stuff, and its full of minerals.

The calcium in dirt comes from old exoskeletons and animal bones, and in some areas, from chalk. I know parrots feed on chalky soil, and the theory is it neutralizes the toxins they eat. I think squirrels do the same thing and for the same reasons - in part for the calcium and in part because they also eat a lot of toxic foods in the wild. Acorns for example, are toxic to humans, and American Indians that used them extensively in their diets had to leech them but grinding the nuts and then pouring water through them to leech them first.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Image:Parrot-clay-lick.jpg

Some of the most accurate and scientific books I've found on squirrel nutrition were not about animals at all but trees or geography.

The books on squirrels that I have found always strike me as having a subjective quality about them, when what we need is studies that examine the contents of squirrel stomachs, and that sort of thing. Some tree books do mention such studies, because part of the life cycle of a tree involves what might be nibbling it.

As soon as I have time, I plan to fill a strawberry pot with our dirt, and let Schmootie bury nuts in all the little pockets. I'll grow things in it too, like dandelions, to keep the soil fresh . I plan to put the whole thing in a tub because I anticipate an ongoing mess.

Dirt must be clean, never sprayed and preferably form an uphill place that hasn't gotten runoff from property that is sprayed. I have just such an arrangement in my yard, so I won't have a problem, but if anyone else decides to do this. make sure you are using good clean dirt.

BTW I'm always a little amused to read that the *only* healthy diet for a squirrel comes from a kitchen or a package too. Obviously that is not true, and wild is best, but once they come indoors everything changes. The food cycle of a wild squirrel changes form month to month and even year to year ( for example, during cicada years they live on little else all summer, but then they don't eat them again until several years later. What we do indoors is try to meet all their nutritional needs each day, but that is not natural, and it is possible it isn't even optimal. In the big scheme of things very little is known about perfect human diet, let alone the diets of wildlife.

All that being said, there are people on this board who are extremely dedicated to getting us the best answers for the situation we are in - with our indoor squirrels. If everyone here puts their minds to figuring this all out one day we may indeed devise the perfect diet for our little friends. For now, we're doing pretty darned good, no small thanks to 4skwerlz and others here. :thankyou

[acorniv]

Some squirrels take a few days to decide they love the blocks. I'm confident your two will learn to like them too. Especially now that their treats and stashes have been removed! Good mommy! :thumbsup

~ Snort~. And then there are some who take a few weeks. And then there are the elite few who hang on tenaciously indefinitely! But you hang on too. They will come around. Mine just did and she was so sensitive ( what others call picky) she would not even take formula and had to be weaned early. Just kept at it and kept at it with the block. I found an old unopened bag of Mazuri block recently and put it int eh bowl I used to keep nuts to stash in. Now she stashs mazuri block :D. I know she will never eat it, but if she wants to, there it will be...

[4skwerlz]

JLM27, you ask a great question. Island and Acorniv have pretty well summed it up. There are several reasons why the wild squirrel's diet is adequate, while our veggie-fruit-nut based diet isn't. For one, wild foods are generally more nutritious than our grocery-store food; most of the veggies and fruits you can buy have been "bred" for qualities like size, color, sweetness, length of keeping, and so on....and long the way, some of the nutrition is bred right out of them. They also end up sweeter and starchier, since people think that tastes better. Just two examples: acorns are far healthier than any of the nuts we eat--they have far more calcium, less phosphorus, and less fat; while purslane, a wild plant commonly eaten by squirrels, has more calcium than even the highest-calcium store bought veggie. As mentioned, we know squirrels eat bird eggs; a large chicken eggshell has around 2,200 mg of calcium--that's a whole week's worth for a squirrel.

But here's the kicker. Even if you could go outside every day and gather all the exact same wild foods, bits of bark, dirt, worms, etc., that the wild squirrels were eating that day, it still wouldn't work for a pet squirrel. This is because wild squirrels are much, much more active than a pet squirrel. So they eat a lot more, which means they take in a lot more nutrients. Your pampered pet squirrel couldn't possibly eat enough wild foods to get enough nutrients (or if he did, he'd be hugely fat). This is why pet squirrels need a CONCENTRATED form of food, i.e., rodent blocks or squirrel blocks. Yes, this is an artificial diet, but that's because the squirrels are in an artificial situation. And we do try to add back in some "natural" aspect to their diet by including veggies, fruits, nuts, and also wild foods from outside. After all, real food contains a multitude of nutrients, micronutrients, and other compounds that interact in ways we don't even completely understand. For example, it's been proven scientifically that it's better to eat an orange than to take a Vitamin C pill.....but no one is quite sure why, though it's suspected the flavinoids found in the orange pulp play some role.

[JLM27]

What great answers! Thank you all so much. :thankyou I bet there is enough collective knowledge on this Board to provide thousands of grad school research projects (hopefully that do not involve the cutting of any squirrel tummies, I should hope rather it would consist of coprolite analysis). I bought a book on squirrel biology and while it had some extremely interesting information, it had almost nothing about diet.

One interesting factoid: wild squirrels have been observed to eat only the non-essential ends off of the acorns, leaving nuts that were still viable to grow into new trees.

The book also mentioned (and I apologize in advance if I step on anyone's toes about how old life on earth is) that scientists have established that the morphology of the modern squirrel has been essentially unchanged for 5 MILLION YEARS! So, any time we are thinking we are so great as a species and patting ourselves on the back, we can think about that.

[gs1]

Hi:

I’m paranoid too and I’ve only got wilds, but in your case it makes a lot of sense. I guess there is no real way to separate their feedings and letting them sleep by themselves? Caged, side by side?

…………

I also considered giving my wilds calcium peanut butter truffles (:D recipe to be developed) – but had to rethink it – vitamins/minerals work better together.

……………

Looking to the wild’s diet makes sense – except of course it’s not perfect since so many of them don’t live very long and we wouldn’t know if any of them had mbd or some other deficiency when they died, or even if they poisoned themselves with what they just ate.

But of course wild squirrels are probably our best teachers.

acorniv said it so much better than me, soil - good, clean, healthy, pesticide free soil .... brimming with micronutrients, and good bacterias - even good for humans (yum!!! Mud-pie anyone?) but sorry to say it also comes with bad bacteria and not to mention parasites. (but a tub full to play with still makes sense – or a strawberry jar - :D much more stylish.)

Related to the soil question, I read somewhere that by burying their nuts/seeds squirrels also inadvertently sprout them, and a sprouted seed has a gazillion more nutrients than an ordinary seed.

Weeds are also very, very nutritious; dandelion, lambsquarters are very high in calcium, so are maple seeds.

Considering all the birdfeeders around, I’m not so sure that all of my wild squirrels are so healthy, for example, Billy, sweetest little fellow, but way too, too fluffy (if anyone wants to see his photo I posted him in the group of 20 about ?2weeks ago – off topic posts. ) .

And it's not just the birdfeeders, many (kind) people think it’s ok to give them lots of peanuts, sunflower seeds, corn, cookies and bread … and sometimes I have to almost agree with them because if it’s between that and them starving then I’d give them bread too and hope to get them through the winter.

Ok … bye all … really love this thread … they all need good nutrition.