Rodent Block.

[sadiesmom]

I've had Sadie on Harlan Teklad 2014 for a while now, and she's doing wonderfully with it. I couldn't be happier that she took to it so readily and I am thankful that I was provided such thorough information through this forum as to why she needed to be on rodent block.

However, I am a member of another forum with a rat section that I visit frequently even though I no longer have pet rats (but hope to someday in the future own them again when the time is right). Sometimes it seems like no one over there agrees on anything and will argue just for the pleasure of arguing. I stumbled across a thread about why don't more people feed their rats Harlan Teklad formula 2014? 2018 seems to be the preferred over there when people buy Harlan at all. As there will always be, there are scuffles over what brand of food is best, whether a raw diet is best, or whether homemade foods are best. Then there's the whole soy is good/soy is bad debate. And of course, the ethoxyquin subject has been brought up more than once.

My real problem is when someone stated that basically she thought NO ONE should feed Harlan, especially 2014 because it's just too low in grade and has nothing but grain byproducts and added vitamins.

Now, I know Sadie isn't a rat (unless you count a tree rat!), but rats and squirrels ARE rodents and I just want to double check with people who know their stuff on this board. It was recommended to me by several people on here, so I assume it's at least not going to kill her. I apologize, 4skwerlz, as I know you posted about this subject for me before when I was first looking at getting Sadie the "right" rodent block. I know you told me before that no block was perfect and you said that the blocks are "feed grade" and all that good stuff. I was okay with it when I posed questions about it before. I think I've just worked myself into a tizzy over the differences in opinions over there, but actually, I'd probably believe you before anyone else! I just need to know that I'm really not depriving her of needed "enzymes and antioxidants" that the poster on the other site said Harlan doesn't contain.

I apologize if I sound really dumb. I'm no nutritionist and frankly I don't watch what I eat nearly as close as what I feed to Sadie. Is Harlan really that poor in quality, or is this just another one of those opinions that have no basis behind it?

[Secret Squirrel]

What kind of rodent block is this person suggesting you buy ???? Sorry you are going through a tug-o-war over this matter. :grouphug

[4skwerlz]

No problem, Sadie's mom.

It's true that all rodent blocks are basically cheap base ingredients (usually corn or other grains) with vitamins and minerals added in. So I can certainly understand why the rat owners on your board aren't satisfied with rodent blocks in general. Neither was I. That's one reason I developed the squirrel blocks. But the Harlan seems to be the best of them according to the standards I used in comparing them (I believe I posted that comparison chart for you before). It is used extensively in laboratories, where they can't afford to have health issues interfering in their studies.

There is some evidence that soy, in large amounts, causes tumors in rats. That's why I didn't use any soy products in the squirrel blocks.

The Harlan does not contain ethoxyquin. However, there was no evidence, no scientific evidence, that I could find of there being any problem with it, except of course that no one likes the idea of preservatives. There have been a few vocal pet owners posting on the net that ethoxyquin killed their dogs, but there is just no evidence for it.

As far as the Harlan 2014 and 2018 formulas. The last two numbers refer to the protein content as a percentage. The 2018 (18% protein) is recommended for growing squirrels; the 2014 for adult squirrels. The correct amount of protein for rats has been pretty extensively studied, and until someone does a study on squirrels, we use that.

As far as an "all natural" or "grocery store" diet consisting of veggies, etc., there is simply no way for them to get the nutrients they need that way. There are several reasons for this: One, most of the foods we buy in the grocery store are less nutritious than wild foods because they are "bred" for qualities like color, size, sweetness, long storage, and so on, and in the process often a lot of the vitamins are bred out of them, and they also end up sweeter and starchier. Two, even if you could go outside and gather all the natural foods your squirrel (or rat) would eat in the wild, it wouldn't be enough. This is because our pets are far less active than wild animals, therefore they eat less, therefore they take in fewer nutrients. Pets need foods that are highly concentrated nutritionally, e.g., rodent block.

However, I still believe it is very important to feed some "real" food and not just 100% rodent block. Natural, raw foods (veggies, nuts, and such) contain hundreds of chemicals and compounds (including "enzymes and antioxidants") that interact with nutrients during digestion and metabolization in ways we are just beginning to understand. That is why we suggest including fresh veggies and natural foods as part of the diet.

To sum up, I'm no huge fan of rodent blocks in general, but at least you know your squirrel is getting the proper nutrition, which would be IMPOSSIBLE by feeding just veggies and such. They're really the only option other than the homemade squirrel blocks--and those are a pain in the hiney to make! Why don't you visit the Harlan website....they have a lot of information about their standards, etc. I think you'll be impressed and it might make you feel better about feeding them to Sadie.

Hope this helps.

[4skwerlz]

I forgot, here is the Harlan Teklad website. You can also click on the 2014 and 2018 diets to learn more about them.

http://www.teklad.com/rodent.asp

[sadiesmom]

What kind of rodent block is this person suggesting you buy ???? Sorry you are going through a tug-o-war over this matter. :grouphug
That's just it! I don't know! No one there ever really says what they feed, they just point at others and say, "Omg, I can't believe you feed that! It's so bad!"

One of the only people who has actually spoken up said that she recommends the Debbie Ducommun diet (http://www.ratfanclub.org/diet.html), which isn't a block, and that basically no one should feed Harlan (even though Debbie's website has no real problems with block). Poster then goes on to say that, "The ingredients (in Harlan) are very poor. Pretty much just low-grade grain byproducts and vitamins. Might have all the right minerals, but what about all the other stuff in food, like the enzymes, antioxidants, and other stuff. You just can't reproduce the effects by throwing in a few supplements." Quoting what the website says about the diet meeting the requirements set for rats by the National Research Council, the poster then states that Ducommun's diet "does have the right nutrients, plus, it's made of human grade, fresh ingredients. It's also tofu based, which is nice because soy helps prevent tumors." Her words.

Someone later called the poster out by saying, "Debbie Ducommun is not a vet, a nutritionist, or any other degreed profession. She "worked hard" to formulate her diet just as Suebee* [see footnote] worked hard to formulate her own grain mix with the guidance of the RMCA, Rat Fan Club, and her vet, or how any number of people have worked hard to find adequate alternative foods for their own rats. Just because she did this does not mean that it's guaranteed to have the right nutrients or the right amounts of nutrients. Same goes for any other homemade diet. Just because a food is fresh doesn't mean the diet is fool proof, as is exampled by Ducommun's liberal use of supplemental vitamins and minerals."

Lord, I don't know. The Ducommun diet wouldn't help us in the squirrel community out either way because it contains ingredients that squirrels will not eat, like beef liver and oysters. Yuck!

I really do want to get Sadie on 4skwerlz's homemade block, but right now I just don't have the extra money to spend on some of those ingredients! Also, health food stores don't seem to exist around here so I'd have to order most everything online. Right now she is doing very well on the Harlan and I'm not inclined to change that until I can come up with some serious extra coin (and time!) for the homemade blocks, or unless for some reason someone suddenly discovers that Harlan is harmful, and even then I'd want proof, not opinion.

Argh. This drives me crazy! I think I should just keep my nose out of the nutrition threads at the rat forum because not many over there seem to base their opinions on fact. At least over here we have people who know what they're doing! I'm comfortable with that, and if you guys say Harlan is okay, even if it isn't the best, I'll believe you. I'll keep her on it until I'm able to make the better block myself.

I don't know why I actually sat here and typed all this up. I'm just frustrated at all the squabbling!






*Debbie Ducommun mentions on her website that she doesn't believe that Suebee's Mix is nutritionally complete diet for rats. Suebee's Mix, from what I understand, was developed by one of the other forum members as a treat mix and was never intended as the staple basis of a rodent diet. What Ducommun says about it on her website perplexes me because I was always under the assumption that no one feeds Suebee's Mix strictly.

[4skwerlz]

Did you see my post #3 below? I did try to answer your questions.

[sadiesmom]

Did you see my post #3 below? I did try to answer your questions.
I did see it. Thank you so much for your input. Sorry I wasn't able to reply about it earlier. I had a study session soon after I posted with my first reply, and instead of using the time I had to type up something worthwhile, I used it to vent. Sorry about that!

Anyhow, I think I'm okay with leaving her on the Harlan Teklad until I can manage to transition to your formula. I trust it, being that you're the only person I know who has put extensive research into a food for squirrels that is based on their nutritional needs. I think I need to stop worrying about what the rat community recommends just because squirrels and rats are both rodents. The difference between this forum and that one is that people here generally lean toward scientific evidence. People there tend to gravitate toward whatever food generates the most recommendations based on opinion.

So, I guess Harlan it will be until my supply runs out. Then we'll see if I've got some extra cash to invest in the homemade blocks. I'm comfortable feeding it to her because she has taken well to it and also because I am also providing her with vegetables and sometimes a little fruit. Since her MBD scare in September, I've reduced her nut intake to two per day, a) because I'm scared of treading in new territory with the blocks (and I don't want the extra phosphorous interfering with her recovery at ALL), and b) because it's stated clearly on this board probably over a few hundred times that they really should only have around two a day.

Thanks for posting the Harlan Teklad website for me to look over. It really is helpful, and to tell the truth, if I wasn't in A&P right now, I wouldn't even know what I was looking at! Go education! :alright.gif

And 4skwerlz, I also just want to say that I hope you know just how appreciated you are here. I'm so thankful that there are people like you on this board who are dedicated to translating the nearly incomprehensible language of science into something that people like me can understand and use for the benefit of our squirrels. I, for one, am grateful that you selflessly bring such knowledge and understanding to the table for our advantage.

:bowdown

[Charles Chuckles]

:wott still finding my way around the board...This is just the info. I need...Gammas baby said this was the best squirrel block and I was also going :hissyfit over the food thing. Here I was feeding Charley all fruit(which he never ate much) and veggies and nuts and corn etc.. I always said Charley has such a balanced diet HA, what did I know...I to like to do research for my little one but I have come across a lot of dead ends in propper diets for squirrels...everyone would just say well DUH they eat acorns:dono Anyway thanks to Gammas baby I now have a full spec. light on my Charley and he seems to like it,they are smart. Ok thank you 4sk I really trust your knowledge