Possible MBD?

[sadiesmom]

Sadie's behavior for the past two days has been worrying me. I came home yesterday with some watermelon to give her, but I had other house work to do so I just handed it to her and went to do chores. I don't know if it was that I wasn't paying attention, or she wasn't showing signs at the time, but when I came back to check on her about an hour later, I was mortified to realize she wasn't moving normally.

She doesn't seem like she is in pain, but her movements are a lot more "loose" than normal. Her back end, especially, seems the most affected, and although she doesn't "drag" it, she acts like she doesn't have a whole lot of detailed control. She is still able to climb, but she doesn't grasp as well. Also, she fell over twice while eating.

She has every day access to a full spectrum light as well as a sunny window that I open for her every day. She's fed powdered calcium with her food (which includes lots of dark greens!) and she also has an antler and cuttlebone she nibbles on.

A relative suggested she may have hurt a foot while playing, but she doesn't show signs of pain and there is no swelling or signs of favoring one foot over the other. I'm more inclined to believe she has early stages of MBD, but I can't understand how.

Any suggestions?? What else could possibly be wrong with her, and if it is MBD, what can I do differently than I already am? I am lost!

[Buddy'sMom]

While you sort out what is wrong, she might benefit from heat to make her more comfortable. A heating pad on low under half her nest, just like when she was little. Or perhaps a rice buddy to snuggle against. If it IS MBD, the heat is soothing, just like if we are sore. If it's not, well, she can move away from it if she decides she doesn't like it.

Hope she is better soon. Looking at her diet is a good idea, as well as watching her movements carefully to try to see if it is one or both legs, etc.

:grouphug :Love_Icon :grouphug

[sadiesmom]

Is Sadie still eating and drinking? Are her eyes clear, and her gums pink? Is it both her back legs or just one? It sure sounds like you're doing all the right things. Are you keeping her nut intake to 2-3 a day? Can you list all the foods you are giving her? Some may have high phosphorus levels in them, and no matter how much calcium you're giving her, if they are extracting it, it's like she was given none. I would think about getting some Prozyme, and make sure she gets a BIG pinch of it daily. She may not be absorbing the proper nutrients, for some reason, and may need a little help. I know Petco carries it, but I'm not sure about other pet stores, as Petsmart does not have it listed online.

http://www.petco.com/Shop/Product.aspx?familyid=13434&Ntt=Prozyme&OneResultRedirect=1

I've tried so hard all her life to be extremely cautious about her diet. Is there anything lacking here, or else things she shouldn't get?

She gets a varied diet from day to day, but calcium-containing foods are always included. The following list are items included but not limited to her diet. It includes greens (kale, dandelion greens, collard greens, spinach, etc), carrots, broccoli, tomatoes, squash, mushrooms, zucchini, green beans, cauliflower, crickets (when I can catch them!), and fruits including blueberries, oranges, apples, grapes, papaya, and pomegranate. (Right now I'm also offering her fresh autumn olives as I've been making jam out of them.) I also offer her some of the Kashi breakfast cereals, flax seed, and occasional pumpkin seeds. Nuts are limited to about two a day, although some days I don't give her any if there are other foods I'd like her to eat since she'd pick them over anything. I often get her the mixed kind (still in the shells and unsalted), but where I live I can offer her acorns and hickory and beech nuts as well. Rare treats include french fries (I know it's bad, but she loves them), a few dark chocolate baking chips, a piece of candy or cookie, goldfish crackers, and dark kidney beans. Keep in mind that I also give her calcium supplements along with these items.

Eyes are clear, gums are pink, and her whole back-end is affected, although last night she seemed to be showing signs of the left rear leg being more "lazy" than the other. She shows absolutely no signs of pain or discomfort and she is still eating, drinking, and using the potty normally. It's almost like she is completely unaware that something is wrong.

[sadiesmom]

While you sort out what is wrong, she might benefit from heat to make her more comfortable. A heating pad on low under half her nest, just like when she was little. Or perhaps a rice buddy to snuggle against. If it IS MBD, the heat is soothing, just like if we are sore. If it's not, well, she can move away from it if she decides she doesn't like it.

Hope she is better soon. Looking at her diet is a good idea, as well as watching her movements carefully to try to see if it is one or both legs, etc.

:grouphug :Love_Icon :grouphug

Thanks for the suggestion. Normally I'd perish the thought of a rice buddy because she'd rip it to shreds, but she has been acting a bit more run down since I've noticed these symptoms. I think I might try this when I get home from college this afternoon. She seems to be enjoying massages more, as well, so I guess offering some heat wouldn't hurt either!

[sadiesmom]

Here's a quick update on Sadie:

I haven't had computer access since the last time I posted. I've been in the process of moving for the past few weeks and I haven't even had time to think about hooking my computer up at home yet. I'm up at 4 in the morning to get ready for my college classes (it's an hour and forty-five minute drive there and back each day), and I don't get home until around 7. So forgive me if my posts come slowly. I only have a few opportunities each day to use the campus computers.

Anyway, since Sadie's onset of symptoms, I have left her full spectrum light on 24 hours a day instead of the normal three to four I get in the evenings (although keep in mind that she does get more hours of natural sunlight per day via a window I open for her). Yesterday when I came home, she greeted me by springing up on the bars of her cage--something she hasn't done since she's been "ill". I've noticed her movement greatly improved, but still a little abnormal. I can't exactly attribute it to the FSL, simply because I don't truly know that it is MBD. Besides, I don't think it works that quickly. I'm not taking chances, though, so the light will remain on 24 hours a day until I'm satisfied she can handle a little less. (She doesn't sleep well with it on, especially since I turned her hammock in such a way that the light shines inside of it.)

Still no signs of discomfort or pain, but she is still a bit lagging. The boyfriend doesn't notice it now, but I'm her primary caretaker so I know when something in her behavior isn't normal. I'm still cautious and I'm keeping a close eye on her, but I'm not as worried as I was when I first noticed something was wrong. At one point that first night I thought she was somehow partially paralyzed and I cried my heart out. Now, though, things seem to be moving toward being more normal. I still don't have a clue what it is, but I am making sure she gets more calcium than usual right now just in case it's early onset of MBD.

Keeping my fingers crossed that whatever is wrong is temporary!

[FallensMommie]

Kashi breakfast cereals. Rare treats include french fries (I know it's bad, but she loves them), a few dark chocolate baking chips, a piece of candy or cookie, goldfish crackers, and dark kidney beans.

For the most part the diet looks great. What nuts are you feeding her? Some are better than others when it come to the phorphous/calcium ratio. The acorns and other nuts locally you have are good.

I would totally eliminate the foods above Kashi, french fries etc....even if as a treat. She doesn't need them and they dont contribute anything but negative to the diet. Giving her a little of each weekly adds up to a lot of negatives at the end of the month. Maybe eliminating a treat to once a month but definitely not chocolate or any sort of candy. JMO!

Glad to see she is getting back to normal.

[sadiesmom]

For the most part the diet looks great. What nuts are you feeding her? Some are better than others when it come to the phorphous/calcium ratio. The acorns and other nuts locally you have are good.

I would totally eliminate the foods above Kashi, french fries etc....even if as a treat. She doesn't need them and they dont contribute anything but negative to the diet. Giving her a little of each weekly adds up to a lot of negatives at the end of the month. Maybe eliminating a treat to once a month but definitely not chocolate or any sort of candy. JMO!

Glad to see she is getting back to normal.

Right now the only nuts she gets are the ones that are in season locally. Acorns, beech, etc. Our neighbors have, among others, pecan, black walnut, and chesnut trees that they gladly share with me when the nuts fall. I generally don't have to buy nuts often, and when I do I get the mixed kind with the almonds, pecans, walnuts, hazelnuts, and brazil nuts. Unsalted and still in the shell. Oh, and the boyfriend brings home pistachios and shares with her sparingly (as they are salted).

Sadie's junkfood treats are rare. Definitely not weekly. She would totally ignore other food (like most of us!) if I gave her treats more often, so I really restrict the junk. I have begun to suspect the boyfriend of slipping her a Skittle every now and then, so that has tightened down the treat ration even further.

I'm no expert on nutrition, though in all seriousness I keeps better tabs on hers than I do my own.

Is there anything else that anyone might suspect other than MBD? And even if it is, can 24 hour FSL ease symptoms in just a matter of days? It seems odd to me, but then again I've never dealt with it. Could there be something in the local nuts I'm giving her? They're not sprayed with chemicals or anything, but, I don't know, maybe bad worms or something? I haven't found any worms yet, but I'm sure they could be inside whether or not there are holes in the shell itself. I've read through the illnesses that can be associated with squirrels, and nothing seems to fit quite right. Could I possibly be too worried about it? As I've said, she shows no signs of pain or swelling anywhere. She's still bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. She isn't even three yet, so I don't heavily suspect anything age-related like arthritis.

This is driving me crazy, but I am glad to be seeing improvement even if I still haven't figured out what it is.

[sadiesmom]

My personal opinion is that this was early signs of MBD. Getting more calcium in her, and having the FSL on her to help her body absorb the calcium, is why she's doing better. When caught right away, and treating it, you should see a big improvement in a couple of days. However, just remember, MBD does not occur overnight, and it will not disappear overnight. It may be weeks until Sadie is back to 100% normal. I would still restrict any high places for her to climb and fall. Until she is back to 100%, I would not give her any nuts, as she needs all the calcium she can get right now. To keep her teeth filed down, I would get her some deer antlers of a a stew bone to chew on.

Also, if you just keep the FSL of her from morning until dusk, that will be fine, and she can sleep in peace, in the dark. :thumbsup

In a way MBD makes perfect sense, but in another, it doesn't! (Only because I can't quite understand how.) I'm glad someone else agrees with my opinion on it, though. I did have a hunch that's what it was. I guess it can easily happen to any of our babies, even if we're careful about it, but still I hope no one thinks I'm a bad squirrel mommy if MBD is the case.

So now comes the questions:

I do provide antlers and cuttlebone for her (both of which she does gnaw on), and I also give her 600mg calcium tablets (sometimes I crush it up and put in her food, other times she actually takes the whole tablet and eats at it throughout the day until it's gone). She also takes multi-vitamin drops in her water. Do you still recommend getting the Prozyme, even now that she is improving? I have no problem with getting it, I only wanted to wait until I could get an opinion from someone who knew more about what might be going on. And also, should I get molasses to offer her? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I read on here somewhere that it contains loads of calcium. I've also been interested in trying her on some of the rodent block or monkey biscuit stuff I've read about for so long. Would this be something beneficial to her right now, and if so, what do you recommend for a squirrel who has never even tried it? What seems to be the preferred?

[sadiesmom]

Just bumping this thread so I can get a little more advice. :)

[Sciurus1]

Pistachios are very bad for squirrels, and are on the list of not to feed.

[4skwerlz]

Hi Sadiesmom,

The list of foods you are feeding is great, but you can't make up a complete diet that way. Such a diet will be grossly deficient in protein and other nutrients, and also calcium, since even though you are giving her calcium, vitamin D is necessary to metabolize the calcium. Vitamin D only comes from animal products (or sunshine). So Sadie must have either rodent block or the squirrel blocks as 70% of her diet, plus the other healthy foods you are feeding. Since Sadie is showing neurological symptoms, you need to get extra calcium into her right away before the damage becomes permanent. The normal daily requirement for calcium is about 350 mg per day--for a healthy animal. Sadie will need a little extra calcium for a while. As an emergency measure you could use some vitamin drops for mice and rats to give her some extra nutrition until you can get her eating the rodent blocks or squirrel blocks. But she also needs the protein in the blocks.

Daily Requirements:

Calcium: 350 mg. For a squirrel with MBD, I like to give 600 mg the first day and then at least 400 for a week and see how they do. Calcium is not toxic and any extra is excreted by the body.

Vitamin D: 72 I.U. Don't exceed this amount by more than 25%. Vitamin D in very large amounts can actually cause calcium loss and even death. Not to worry--to be fatal the dose has to be huge, but it is better to give just the right amount to ensure proper calcium metabolism.

Remember, all the nutrients work together, so calc and Vit D aren't enough, so do get Sadie eating some kind of blocks as soon as possible.

Good luck.

[sadiesmom]

Thanks, everyone. I will definitely get her on some sort of block as soon as possible. Harland Tekland 2014 seems to be pretty popular on this forum, so unless I'm told otherwise, that's what I'll be ordering.

She is still improving. I'm amazed at how fast, though, considering how just tweaking some things like giving her some extra calcium (on top of what she already had been getting) and keeping her full spectrum light on longer than usual (although she still gets sunlight through the open window) has brought her back to herself in a matter of days. Junk food treats are off limits at this point. No exceptions.

The owner of the only local pet store here just recently gave me a bottle of liquid vitamins to try out called "Sun Drops" I do believe. I've read over the ingredients, but I'm on campus right now and don't have the bottle in front of me to list for you. I've never used this brand before (I think what I use is called LM Vitamins... not sure, I just recognize the bottle at the store), so just to be sure, do any of you have objections to it? Or perhaps is there another brand that is highly recommended that I should get instead?

Again, thanks so much for all your advice. This is just goes to make another point why squirrels do not make good pets. They're extremely sensitive and require much, much more than do cats and dogs. I thought I knew what I was doing, and while I still can't figure out exactly what was lacking, I've learned that people who think they know everything usually don't. I wish more people would read threads like this before they come on here and post a want ad for a pet squirrel.

[sadiesmom]

Pistachios are very bad for squirrels, and are on the list of not to feed.

According to 4sqwerlz's Healthy Diet thread, they aren't the healthiest of nuts, but still are listed as part of the "okay" diet as far as I understand. She doesn't get them often at all, maybe one or two pistachios once every four or five months when my boyfriend gets a craving for them.

7. Nuts/Seeds—Two per day, preferably in the shell. Acorns, whole roasted pumpkin seeds, and almonds are the healthiest, followed by hazelnuts, macadamia nuts, English walnuts, pecans, pistachios, and peanuts, in that order. Unlike other nuts/seeds, sesame seeds are an excellent source of calcium.
Avoid: Cashews, sunflower seeds, dried corn, pine nuts (will cause severe calcium loss).

[sadiesmom]

Here is an example to show you about nuts....:thumbsup

Calcium:Phosphorus Ratio of Nuts/Seeds

The number shows how many mgs of phosphorus each food contains for every 1 mg of calcium. For example, for every 1 mg of calcium in a Pistachio there are 4.41 mgs of phosphorus, an “inverted ratio” since you want a ratio of at least 1 mg of calcium for every 1 mg of phosphorus.

By this chart, you can see why we say they're ok, but not the best nut to give.

Pumpkin seeds (roasted)…..1.67
Acorns…………………………………1.83
Almonds……………………………….1.85
Pumpkin seeds (raw) …………2.25
Hazelnuts………………………………2.51
Macadamia……………………………2.8
Walnuts, English…………………..…3.5
Pecans…………………………..……4.15
Pistachio………………………………4.41
Soy nuts (roasted) ……………………4.6
Peanuts (roasted) ……………………6.7
Cashews……………………………10.69
Sunflower seeds……………………16.35
Pine nuts……………………………32

Gotcha. :thumbsup

We haven't had pistachios in the house for a few months, but the next time Derek brings some home, I'll tell him she isn't allowed to have any. At least until she's in the clear again. :)

[4skwerlz]

Sun Drops are fine; they are fairly low-dose vitamins. Give them according to directions, keeping in mind that your squirrel weighs more than the rats, mice, and hamsters the vitamins are intended for, so you should probably double the dose. Once Sadie is eating rodent blocks every day, then you can still add a drop a day as extra vitamin insurance.

It takes a huge overdose of vitamins--in many cases, many hundreds of times too much--to be harmful; whereas even small deficiencies can cause big problems over time. It is true that large overdoses of calcium over time can cause health problems, but they have to be large overdoses. For example, Mazuri rodent block contains over twice as much calcium per kg of diet than the RDA, 1 1/2 times the RDA of Vit D, over 6 times the RDA of Vit A, etc., etc. They do this as "vitamin insurance" for the animals that eat their blocks. Of course you don't want to go overboard. I only mention this to illustrate that the "RDA" is a MINIMUM requirement and that there is quite a bit of room in these RDAs. Especially when you consider wastage (for example, when the animal crumbles and drops part of their food) and vitamin degradation over time due to storage, sunlight, heat, etc. I believe it makes sense to try to achieve just slightly over the RDA.

If Sadie doesn't like the Teklad blocks, then you'll have to make the squirrel blocks for her. The recipe is under the "Squirrel Nutrition" forum. An occasional pistachio is fine. Hope this helps.

[sadiesmom]

Thanks a ton, guys. Sadie is back to playing with me and being her usual bouncy self, but I know that doesn't necessarily mean that she's quite out of the woods yet. Her space is limited for the time being to prevent injury because I don't know just how fragile she is right now. With that, I'll just keep doing what I've been told on here and hope we've been spot on about MBD and caught it pretty early. I'm still a little skeptical, but as long as she's improving I'm not really worried about the specifics of what it was. That is, unless it happens again.

Again, thanks so much. I'm still somewhat new to this whole squirrel business and I still learn tons from visiting the board. I'm just so thankful I have the board to turn to when it comes to questions, because I truly have no one else. We're in an illegal state. :nono