Rosie has returned, large swelling on back

[Squirrellie]

I posted Monday that Rosie's five or six week old baby fell out of the nest onto the porch, and Rosie was missing. After no sign of Rosie or babies yesterday, Rosie showed up again this morning but with a HUGE swelling on her back that was NOT there when I last saw her on Saturday.

Does this look like a Botfly? I read the Botfly threads in Specific Ailments and hers does not look like the pictures, but maybe that is because hers is not open yet and the fly is still inside?

Other than this bump, she is acting normally. She has a good appetite, was relaxing on the porch and chair as usual, drank lots of water, buried nuts and looks like she has milk in her belly for her babies.

Here are pictures showing the bump. I am also posting two pictures of how she looked last week without the bump.

My question is, will this affect her being able to take care of her babies? Is there anything I can do for her? I don't think I can get close to her to remove it with peroxide, I am concerned about trapping her and taking her for treatment because it would take her away from her babies, and I am not sure where I would even take her. But I am worried for her, that this would be painful when the fly comes out (if it IS a botfly). Could I give her antibiotics or would that affect her milk?

Could this be some OTHER kind of problem, like an injury that might have knocked her out for a while on Monday when she left her babies alone so long?

Would a Botfly infection go from nothing to a huge bump like this in only 5 days?

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

Looks like an abscess of some type, I don't believe its a botfly.
There would be a round breather hole..very distinct looking.
Looks like she's been in a scuffle.:dono Regardless what is wrong with her I am happy to see she's alive.
(went back and read more of your questions)
A botfly would not be that large in 5 days, the lump also would be hairless..it would be pink, with a hole.

[Squirrellie]

Here is a "before bump" and "after bump" picture of her drinking water, and also of her today acting normally, relaxing on the deck chair and the porch railing. Also of her eating corn from the bin last week before the bump showed up.

[Frickster]

have you seen the babies again to know if they were reunited?

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

http://entomology.ifas.ufl.edu/slansky/botfly/wrbwk1/wrbwk1.htm

[Squirrellie]

Rippie, I looked at that link, those botflies are just gross beyond belief :yuck :yuck I am so glad she doesn't have that, but feel so bad for those critters that do. I wish there was a vaccine for that or something.

If her bump is an abscess, does that mean it's infected with pus inside? Would it need to be drained or would antibiotics help or should I just do nothing and keep an eye on her to watch for changes?

Frickster, yes I think she is back with her babies. I think what must have happened is she came back Monday night while we were at the store getting the Pedialyte, just before dark. She probably saw the box of tshirts I put out for the baby, and the ladder near the nest, and got scared of the disturbance and moved her babies that night. I think she will probably bring them back, if she hasn't already. I should eventually be able to hear some movement in the nest, and they'll pop out again.

It looks like all the prayers were answered and she (and probably the babies) are OK except for that bump.

[Pam]

The bump could be both...an abscess and botfly. Sometimes an abscess will form around a botfly.

[JudyB]

:) I am so glad Rosie is back and hopefully reunited with her kids. I hope that bump isn't life threatening and resolves itself. Pls keep us posted.:grouphug

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

When my squirrels get botflys the first thing I notice is the round bald patch rather than the lump, then day by day the lump will grow it would never get that big in a few days time.
In Rosies case she has the large swelling but hair is intact.
I dont believe that this is life threatening where we need to do something quickly,
she is acting normally and eating and thats great.
I believe Mr. Earl had a squirrel come with an absess like this and it resolved itself in a few days.:thumbsup

[Squirrellie]

Rippie, that's what I'm hoping for. I'll just watch her closely and make sure the bump doesn't get worse, or she starts acting sick.

I will keep you updated with pictures of any changes, thank you so much for the advice!

[FLUFFYTAILNUT]

that was really nasty rippie...
those botflies are rotten..like invasion of the body snatchers..
poor squirrels..that must be very intense pain...
glad rosie doesnt have that! or..lets hope not..

marie ..im glad rosie came home..to you:thumbsup
now you can sleep well:grouphug
rachel n bean:wave123

[Frickster]

once you see the babies, do you think you can get rosie to try to figure out what's going on? there's got to be a way to help...poor baby! in case anything does happen to her....do you know where the babies are?

[atlantasquirrelgirl]

I agree with Rippie. A bot doesn't get that big, that fast, and it usually has a bald spot and an opening, or red scab. I think I would prefer a bot fly, because you know it will run it's course in time.

Did she show any signs of favoring it?

[Apple Corps]

That is not a botfly IMO - can you trap her?

[Apple Corps]

That does complicate things - BUT - a lancing of an abscess - if that is what it is - could be done quickly and Rosie returned to her babies.

The size of the swelling has me concerned - such an infection might be rapidly overwhelming.

[Apple Corps]

Looking at Rosie again - this is a most unusual shape - an abscess normally has a more uniform shape - look how this hump drops onto her rightside and projects towards the rear. No idea about the "so what" to what I am saying yet.

[Squirrellie]

Apple Corps,

She's been coming by every day this week and eating and drinking as usual. She looks healthy and doesn't appear to be sick or in pain. My husband saw her yesterday and said the bump looked smaller. I will get pictures next time she comes by. I'm watching her closely.

If it became necessary, I think I could probably trap her (I would need to buy a Havahart, which is no problem) and bring her in to have it lanced as long as she could be back the same day. She can't be away overnight, as Gamma said, she has young babies to look after. They used to be behind our chimney but she has moved them to an unknown location.

I worry about the bump size, too. I remember Willy's little guy Joey and the problem he had with abscesses, if that is what it even is?

The problem is where to take for her for treatment if it becomes necessary? I am in PA, not a squirrel friendly state.

Also, would antibiotics help?

[Squirrellie]

Wow!....I just now saw this!! I am SO HAPPY that Rosie is back home, and is ok! :wott Have you seen her in the past couple of days? Does the bump look like it's going down at all? I went to post you the pic of Mr Earl's squirrel that had the same problem, but he removed all his pics of it. :confused: :confused: :confused:

Have you seen any of the babies?

Gamma, I'm sorry I missed your post the other day. No, I haven't seen the babies, I think she must have come and moved them Monday night while we were out getting the Pedialyte. My husband thought the bump was smaller yesterday, but I really need to see for myself and take pictures. How big was the bump on Mr. Earl's squirrel?:thankyou :thankyou for caring about Rosie.

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

The problem is where to take for her for treatment if it becomes necessary? I am in PA, not a squirrel friendly state
Exactly! Just keep doing what you are doing and see how she does.

[Sciurus1]

California has a no pet standard when it comes to squirrels, and they are willing to allow individuals to trap them, and take them to be treated, and then returned to the place of origin. If then PA. has the same policy, why not call and simply ask if they would be willing to care for this squirrel Mamma and return her to you ASA they lance the absess, and give her a shot of antibiotics to go. It is worth asking about anyway, if you don't have a pet squirrel that is, only wilds.

[Squirrellie]

Thank you, Sciurus, I just saw your post and this is something I think I'll need to look into. As you will see in my next post, all is not well with Rosie.

[Squirrellie]

This post is an update about Rosie's swelling (abscess?) on her back. Last week I posted pictures and more or less decided to "watch and wait" and see what happened with the bump.

It is now eight days since I first saw her bump, and it appears not to have changed in size. It is about the size and shape of an egg, sitting on her back between the shoulder blades.

She does not appear to be in pain, but I know from reading other threads that wild squirrels are very good at hiding pain and illness. She has an appetite, is eating and drinking normally. But this bump is still there and if it's an abscess, this has to be causing her discomfort.

From what I have researched, antibiotics won't help at this point and the best treatment would be to lance it & get out the pus or whatever is in there.

My questions are: If I do nothing, could this still go away on it's own? It seems to be the same, not better or worse, in a week. What is the time frame for this healing on its own? If she needs treatment, does anyone know of somewhere I can take her? I live in PA, Northampton County, not too far from Philly.

This is important because it is not only Rosie's life and health at stake, she also is caring for a young family at this time.

Here are some pictures of her bump, and I will post more in the next post directly after this.

All these pictures were taken today.

[Squirrellie]

Here are some more pictures, I tried to get a close up of the bump.

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

I can tell you Pa has no such standard in place. :soapbox Gammas can you have our Queen rehabber :bowdown look at this picture and give us her take on it? I am out the door to work. We'll get her fixed up just hang tight.

[Buddy'sMom]

Poor Rosie. :Love_Icon

It looks bigger than the first pictures, so it does not seem to be getting better on its own.

:thinking With other pictures we've seen of abcesses and infections, there is usually a noticeable loss of fur, so the abcess looks pink. Rosie's fur seems entirely undisturbed. :thinking Doesn't that seem odd? :dono

If she is eating well and energetic, perhaps it is best to let her care for her babies?

:grouphug :Love_Icon :grouphug

[Apple Corps]

Let me cut to the chase:

Arrange a vet in advance

Trap Rosie

Dx & Tx & Rx

Life saved.

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

I just recieved this pm from my rehabber:

if the squirrel has babies, nothing can be done now. Just watch.
She seems to be acting fine...so that is great.
Another case of hurry up and wait.

:bowdown

[Apple Corps]

I disagree with the rehabbers point of view.

[Squirrellie]

Let me cut to the chase:

Arrange a vet in advance

Trap Rosie

Dx & Tx & Rx

Life saved.

Apple Corps, what is Dx, Tx and Rx? Do you think this bump is life-threatening to Rosie?

[Apple Corps]

Dx = diagnosis

Tx = treatment plan

Rx = prescription

A quick exam by a vet would tell us what Rosie has - she would be returned to her babies within hours - they should be fine.

The bump could be:

Abscess or malignant tumor or benign tumor or or or.

It might be easily treatable, it might not be - but I would want to intercede and find out. Draining and abscess is a quick procedure for a vet.....

[Squirrellie]

Dx = diagnosis

Tx = treatment plan

Rx = prescription

A quick exam by a vet would tell us what Rosie has - she would be returned to her babies within hours - they should be fine.

The bump could be:

Abscess or malignant tumor or benign tumor or or or.

It might be easily treatable, it might not be - but I would want to intercede and find out. Draining and abscess is a quick procedure for a vet.....

Thank you, Apple Corps. Right now, the problem is where to take her, but I'm looking into that.

[Pam]

Right now, the problem is where to take her, but I'm looking into that.

Squirrellie, I called my vet and asked him if he would take a look at the pictures of Rosie. He is going to call me back after he looks at them. :thumbsup

When my pet squirrel had an abscess, she was very sick, not eating and cried when I touched her. Once the abscess was lanced, she felt so much better.

[Sciurus1]

It is as much or more a risk to leave her as is, than finding out what is wrong with her, with a short simple procedure, not requiring she be put under anesthetic, inorder to lance the lump. It could be caused by a wood sliver, which left alone could eventually cause her to sucumb to a systemic infection. If it is a tumor, or a cyst, then there will be little that can be done short term, but it won't likely effect the outcome negatively to just find out through attempting to lance this lump. Feeling it alone can tell much, for if it is solid then lancing won't be necessary, for the it is not an absess. If it is an absess, as Pam has noted, it sure would help her to feel better, and as AC noted, she will more likely survive to continue to care for her babies.

[Apple Corps]

Gamma - a good question but not sure if any of us "know" that answer. If a vet can be found w/i a 15 minute drive Rosie could be back within 1 hour total if the vet will play ball.

I suspect that a 1 to 1 1/2 hour trip would be "safe" - but that is just an opinion.

[Pam]

John looked at the pictures of Rosie. He thinks the lump is a bot fly. ( I didn't realize they could get that big.) He thinks Rosie looks good, and appears to feel too good for her to have an abscess. My Roxy was very sick before the abscess even developed.

His recommendation is to watch Rosie closely for signs of sickness. One of the first things she will do if she is sick is quit eating.

[Squirrellie]

Pam and Rippie, I PM'd you. Many thanks to everyone who has posted for the advice and support. I will continue to watch her closely for signs of sickness and loss of appetite.

It will be easy to keep an eye on her, as I am fairly sure she has moved her babies back into the nest behind the chimney. She spent most of her day today eating and lying on the porch roof and railings.

[Apple Corps]

Can you see a breathing hole - there has to be one if it is a botfly. I looked for one in the photos but did not see any.

I agree - she does otherwise look good......

[Sciurus1]

If that lump is from a bot, it has to be more than one, for the lump is very large, or else something else is going on in there.

[Squirlgirl]

:grouphug :bowdown Squirrellie!

:thankyou Pam for shining a vet's view upon this subject!

She looks great, beside having a bump.
Since the bump is not seeming to cause any impairment, it is best for her and her babies to just observe and keep food and water available.

:thumbsup

[Squirrellie]

Apple Corps, no I don't see a breathing hole. She has fur all over the area where the bump is. It's just like a furry egg attached to her back.

Sciurus, the vet thinks it is a botfly, it does look like a cyst (like you said in your earlier post) because of the egg-like shape.

Squirlgirl, yes I am so relieved that a vet has seen the pictures and at least I know that, even though the bump is big and yucky looking, at least it is not life threatening.

I will keep everyone posted if it bursts :eek: :eek: or a nasty podfly comes out :eek: :eek: That will not be pleasant, but at least we know now that Rosie will be OK. She is SUCH a sweet girl. She has raised two little families in that nest and even though she is wild, she feels like part of my family :Love_Icon

[island rehabber]

I am totally in agreement with Pam, Rippie, and Squirlgirl on this one:

It is most likely a bot fly, in which case leaving it alone -- especially in a lactating mother -- is the best course of action. Humans succumb to the neurotic need to "do something" about the bots because of the ick factor, but you know we really need to get over that and leave them alone.

Honestly, how can anyone suggest trapping a wild mother, hauling her in (frantic and hysterical because she's leaving her babies behind) to a vet while babies go hours without her, in a squirrel-killing state like PA? Then, dosing her with medicine which will taint her milk and do God knows what to the babies? Let's take a deep breath here, folks -- this squirrel is not lying in the road gasping for air and unable to eat or drink -- she is functioning!

I don't know if squirrels can get sebaceous cysts, but if her lump is not a bot fly I would say it looks just like a cyst.

[Sciurus1]

IR. Do you think the hair is covering it, because she cannot reach to scratch it as she would on her side or elsewhere, even so presently it is not showing a breath hole; or do all worbles loose hair around them no matter where they lodge?

Squirrellie, actually I didn't say it was a cyst, just that it was on the list of possibilities. It could be an absess, we have seen large ones on squirrels here before. Both cysts and absesses can break open and drain, but tumors if they break bleed, being hard not squishy with liquid in them. Keep a watch on her to see for sign of abnormal behavior, or change in the bump. It is one big monster, whatever it is!

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

Yes jumping the gun (for lack of better words) is never a good thing, imagine if I would have come to pick up those babies when Rosie disapeared for a few days? It's just a wait and see.:thumbsup

[Pam]

One more thought...mine. :D The lump could be a hematoma. She could have injured herself while she was missing, or she was missing to recover from an injury.

[Squirlgirl]

Pammy, you are right!:thumbsup

Her bump could be several things.

BUT...since it is not causing any visible distress, it is best left alone.

S1, I know you asked this of IR, but she can reach the bump, hence that is why I feel she is fine, for now. If it was bothering her, she would tend to it.

[Sciurus1]

S1, I know you asked this of IR, but she can reach the bump, hence that is why I feel she is fine, for now. If it was bothering her, she would tend to it.

I get that Squirlgirl.

Is there then no hair loss, because she cannot reach the spot, or because it is not a worble, assuming that the hair loss is from scratching, not from the worble itself, unless the hair loss is from the worble itself, was my query. Anyway, in a couple of weeks, if either will show to be one, or not, for their deveopment and falling out takes 4 weeks.

I do think it is perhaps could be from an injury, having from what I can see a symetry to it, or a cyst, or tumor. An absess would either resolve, or could cause death from systemic toxicity. If though it is a hemotoma, that would eventually shrink being reabsorbed. If then there are no signs of either of these in a couple of weeks, then that just then leaves a cyst or tumor. A cyst can break open, draining the fluid and then going flat. A tumor can bleed, but remain hard. Something then to be watching for in the future on this squirrel.

[Apple Corps]

ir - cleansing breath - you painted a worst case scenario which is not being suggested.

If it were an abscess, it could be lanced & drained, and a lactating mother safe antibiotic administered, and Rosie returned w/i an hour or so to her babies.

The size of that thing does worry me - as someone else stated, she could be overwhelmed very rapidly from a systemic infection if the is the problem.

While it might be a bot fly - the standard symptoms just aren't visible.

Also - taking action is not always "jumping the gun" - especially given the size of that thing. If Rosie would allow contact and be calm, it could be very safe.

[island rehabber]

If Rosie would allow contact and be calm, it could be very safe.

That, in my humble opinion, is a very very big IF. And it would have to include finding a vet -- in PA -- who would see her immediately and not simply turn her over to PA Fish & Game or whatever they call themselves these days. And then of course, the part about returning her to Squirrellie......that IF is getting bigger by the minute.

[Apple Corps]

ir - the very first step in my cut to the chase is:

arrange a vet in advance

If that can't be done (or an experienced rehabber) then we don't move to the next step. Vets - even in illegal states can be found - I know because...

So - a lot of unknowns but most of the opinions have been aired out I guess.

We all pray for the best for Rosie.

[Pam]

It's obvious by the pictures of Rosie that the lump is not bothering her. She's a nursing mom and does not need the stress of a vet trip. Going to the vet is very stressful for any squirrel. Rosie is not going to allow contact or be calm. She will have to be given anesthesia for a vet to even examine her. I think at this point, a trip to the vet would cause Rosie more harm than good.

[Mountain Mama]

GREAT PICTURES...very sharp detail.

I gotta tell ya, the margins of that furry egg are very well demarcated. Very atypical of an abscess. And it doesn't appear fluctuant at all. Given all of the information that we have, I'm putting my money on a cyst.

But she looks great, and isn't symptomatic.

So watch and wait.

[Squirlgirl]

Oh, S1, I am glad that you "get it".

AC..no one needs a cleansing breath...maybe you.

This is a great Momma squirrel...lets allow her to be as such.:thumbsup

AC..if you would like to find a willing vet...awesome! IF she will need one.

[Sciurus1]

Squirlgirl, I was just using quotes as FM and others have, as a simply a way to acknowledge a person's comment, and then to express that I understand that element, or part, not to communicate any distain for you having noted it to me. :peace

Moving on; I had a few more thoughts I forgot to edit in before. Again, this is just my view on this.

IF there is any possibility of it being a bot larva, then it is needful to wait to make sure of that it is not, before using a needle to lance this area.

WHEN and IF that time comes, she could be caught, and examined closely, to confirm that, and to gently palpate the lump, to determine if it is hard and solid, or soft in the interior. This would go along ways towards determining if this is something that has a watery, or pusy interior, or one that is hard, as a tumors are. If hard, nothing then can be done for her at that time, but if soft, it could be lanced, to drain the contents, and releave the pressure.

A cyst may not resolve completely, but it will drain from lancing. An absess would be allowed to drain much like it would when one opens on it's own, just giving it a bit of help to get started. Topical medication may then be fine for either after that.

As for it not bothering her, that may be so, but keep in mind adult squirrels cover their symptoms, and don't show them until they are very sick, or in allot of pain, and then there may be little that can be done to reverse it then. To then decide to not act on this basis alone, is not advisable.

How long would that take? Well not long at all, for it could be done onsite, if a rehabber could be located who is willing to come there to do the exam, and lancing if then so indicated.

I think this is a doable, being minimal intervention, as to not compromise this mother squirrel, or her babies, and offer the best outcome for both. It is nurture giving nature a hand.:alright.gif

[Sciurus1]

Good observation MM on the lump. :thumbsup

Squirrellie, I sincerely do hope this lump will resolve by itself for Rosie, for that would be the best scenario of all!

[Apple Corps]

Oh, S1, I am glad that you "get it".

AC..no one needs a cleansing breath...maybe you.

This is a great Momma squirrel...lets allow her to be as such.:thumbsup

AC..if you would like to find a willing vet...awesome! IF she will need one.

Squirlgirl - I will determine who I think might benefit from a "cleansing breath". My comment was for ir for the reasons explained - not for you.

So I will kindly ask you to take a cleansing breath as well.

And BTW - ir can hold up an end of a debate without having a proxy skeeter buzzing around .

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

Squirlgirl - I will determine who I think might benefit from a "cleansing breath". My comment was for ir for the reasons explained - not for you.

So I will kindly ask you to take a cleansing breath as well.

And BTW - ir can hold up an end of a debate without having a proxy skeeter buzzing around .
AC if anyone needs a cleansing breath it's you? :nono :crazy Your getting a little carried away now with your comments. There are more years of rehabbing experience behind this advice than you can imagine.
I would call upon those who have treated squirrels hands on right now to be making decisions, that would include Veterinarians and Wildlife Rehabbers. You are very helpful finding Veterinarians who will assist, maybe this would be a good time to be doing that now?
Its very difficult to find treatment for any wildlife in Pa, I have to take my own wildlife to NYC to be treated. I don't think you understand the whole picture.

[Sciurus1]

Our goal here is to help this squirrel, and sharing ideas on how to do that, of a constructive nature, are appreciated! PLEASE then, no more cutting personal put downs, towards those that have a different opinion than ourselves! Let us all observe the rules of TSB, to respect one another's right to express their views on a given matter. :peace :peace :peace

[Apple Corps]

rippie - I do understand the picture - the whole picture - my contributions have gone way beyond arranging vets - you know that.

For Rosie's benefit - we need to stick to work the best Dx / Tx plan and not be waving the rehabber flag of superiority around.

Stop and READ my original recommendation - arrange for a vet. If that can not be done than we would not proceed down that path.

And with all of this great rehabber experience / expertise in the area ( and I suspect that PA is a tough state) - where is the relationship with the vets to "GET THINGS DONE"?

[Mountain Mama]

A cyst, unless infected, is best left alone. If you lance it and try to drain it, it will return, and now you have opened Rosie up to the risk of infection plus the trauma of capturing her. The entire cell wall of a cyst MUST be removed or it will come back, and that would require a rather large opening in this case, plus sutures that would have to be removed later, anesthesia, etc. It's not just as simple as poking a needle in it.

[Apple Corps]

Squirrellie - are you confused enough with all the input?? And the DRAMA to boot :shakehead :shakehead

If you can catch / trap her for 3 minutes (I've done that to 10 of mine the past two weeks - have yet to get the one I need to though) and rule in or out the botfly - that would be progress.

If a botfly opening is found - your call on removing it (w/o anesthesia) OR letting it run its course - not generally life threatening.

If not a botfly - what does it feel like (firmness, temperature, any sign of injury, etc.)? If an abscess - it could be lanced / drained and Rosie back on her way w/i an hour - some stress - bigger help IMO.

If something else (tumor / cyst / ???) - then I'd let Rosie tend to the babies for another week or two and sort out what to do based on your observations.

There are a number of treatments that are VERY safe for lactating mothers. Trapping stress is manageable depending on how close you are to her.

Continued prayers for Rosie.

[island rehabber]

not be waving the rehabber flag of superiority around.

And with all of this great rehabber experience / expertise in the area .......

Yes, lots of drama there......:shakehead:shakehead

[Apple Corps]

Yes, lots of drama there......:shakehead:shakehead

A quote:

"I would call upon those who have treated squirrels hands on right now to be making decisions, that would include Veterinarians and Wildlife Rehabbers."

Translated - anyone with part of a brain functioning knows what this means.

In reality - Squirrellie is the only DECISION MAKER for Rosie.

Now - back to Rosie.....

[Sciurus1]

Thank you MM for sharing this protocol on cysts. I knew that they could come back, but as for infection, that is another issue, and so your advice is very timely and wise! :bowdown

It seems very wise to do as AC has said, and follow that line of investigation, only doing a lancing IF it is an absess, for as MM has well noted, to lance cysts for wilds, is not doable.

If it turned out to be a Bot, to leave it alone, and let it drop out; but if it more than one, whether then to remove them, is still in question. I wonder if they dropped out in her nest, whether a baby would try to bite it, and if it did, could it become sick from the toxin? Hopefuly mama would remove the bugger immediately, and dump it over the side! I would say then, unless there are more than one bot, which at this time is not a strong possibility, to NOT DEBOT! :tilt

[Squirrellie]

I went to visit my parents today so I haven't been on TSB all day. I just got on and read through all the comments, there is a lot of really good information you all have suggested.

Sciurus said, "IF there is any possibility of it being a bot larva, then it is needful to wait to make sure of that it is not, before using a needle to lance this area."

Someone said the bot larva takes 4 weeks to mature and come out. When I saw Rosie on Saturday, September 6 she did not have any noticeable bump. When she appeared again on Thursday, Sept 11, the bump was there. So looking at my calendar, if it is a bot fly, it will have to come out around October 9 or so, give or take a few days.

Mountain Mama said, a "A cyst, unless infected, is best left alone. If you lance it and try to drain it, it will return, and now you have opened Rosie up to the risk of infection plus the trauma of capturing her. The entire cell wall of a cyst MUST be removed or it will come back, and that would require a rather large opening in this case, plus sutures that would have to be removed later, anesthesia, etc. It's not just as simple as poking a needle in it."

If it's a cyst, this makes sense, too, to just leave it alone. The last thing I want to do is hurt Rosie by trying to help her. One of my main concerns in posting the pictures was making sure that it was not an actual infection that could spread into her body and bloodstream and poison her. Several of you have said that if she had an infected (bacterial) abscess that size, she would be VERY sick. My dad, who has some medical experience, said the same thing. She really doesn't seem sick. She eats, drinks and her eyes look bright, not droopy or anything. She also has good motion, jumping onto the porch railings, etc.

What Pam said is also really a possibility, that it is a hematoma (I asked my Dad about this, too).

What's really strange about this bump is how it got so big so quickly --- Saturday 9/6 she had nothing, Thursday 9/11 (and maybe before, since I didn't see her during the week) it was this BIG FURRY EGG. This could be from a hematoma.

Apple Corps, I have looked at the bump from all angles and see no trace of a breathing hole. If there is one or more, it's hidden beneath the fur. I haven't seen her scratching the area, and there is no fur loss.

I am concerned about the stress to her of trapping her and examining her, even having someone come here, because she is shy. Although she comes very close to the window to eat, and spends lots of time on the porch, and lives behind the chimney, and won't run away when I open the door, she is not tame by any means. She is definitely a wild squirrel, and since she has her babies, I don't want to do anything that would be a disturbance to her.....UNLESS she takes a turn for the worse and it is LIFE THREATENING.

Just in case that happens, it might be a good idea to have the name of a vet in advance. But, IR, there is NO CHANCE that I would EVER turn her over to anyone involved with the PA Fish & Game or whatever, they are beyond horrible to squirrels.

So for now, since she has her babies, and it doesn't seem life threatening, I will just watch her progress very carefully, watch for any signs of illness, and will continue to post pictures showing any changes. Since she comes close to the window, it will be easy to get close ups of the bump and watch her.

Just say prayers for her and her young family that this will resolve itself sooner rather than later, and that Rosie is not too uncomfortable with this problem. Thank you so much to ALL of you for sharing your knowledge and ideas, it is very reassuring to have so much expert help for doing the right thing for Rosie.

:thumbsup :thumbsup Watch and wait :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

[TexanSquirrel]

I hope she gets better soon!

[Apple Corps]

Very good summary. That would be huge for a hematoma - not impossible - but one would expect to see some other symptoms from an injury to cause a hematoma that large. One could have a non injury hematoma - but not likely in such an area.

I'm not sure a cyst would develop that large that fast - possible though.

Many of our fuzzers will walk into the house to get their treats - I've closed the door behind them but never tried to examine them. That avoided a trap - but one could debate who caught who in the house.

While I lean towards an abscess, we would expect to be seeing some other symptoms from such a massive infection.

Was someone having a vet look at the pics and give an opinion - I may have missed the feedback.

[Sciurus1]

A couple of things came to mind this evening while reading the comments here on what may have caused the lump on Rosie's back.

The first was from what I learned about my own hematoma I had incurred in a riding accident. Before I left from my 5 day hospital stay, the attending physician told me that my hematoma was very large, 2 units in size, and being that it was in a pocket in my back, not within my body cavity, it would be absorbed into my body over time.


The second has to do with the shape of this lump. Though noted before that cysts may take this shape, there is something else that could cause this shape as well. Years back, our Vet treated a squirrel in our care for dehydration issues. The Vet injected fluids under the skin, just behind the shoulder blades. The shape the water then took was oval, and symetrical, as the Vet explained, there is a natural pocket there under the skin. In light of the location of that pocket, and the shape it takes when filled with fluid. Whatever then has caused this, if it resulted in fluid under the skin, the shape of the pocket could dictate the shape it would take on at this location on the squirrel's back, without having to be from a cyst to hold it to that shape.

[Squirlgirl]

SQUIRRELLIE....:grouphug
You are doing a super job!:bowdown

IF , you happen to see any change in her "bump", Please let TSB know.

Meanwhile....keep food and water available...and a place to rest. :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

[Frickster]

any new pics of the darling and her darlings?

[Squirrellie]

A couple of things came to mind this evening while reading the comments here on what may have caused the lump on Rosie's back.

The first was from what I learned about my own hematoma I had incurred in a riding accident. Before I left from my 5 day hospital stay, the attending physician told me that my hematoma was very large, 2 units in size, and being that it was in a pocket in my back, not within my body cavity, it would be absorbed into my body over time.


The second has to do with the shape of this lump. Though noted before that cysts may take this shape, there is something else that could cause this shape as well. Years back, our Vet treated a squirrel in our care for dehydration issues. The Vet injected fluids under the skin, just behind the shoulder blades. The shape the water then took was oval, and symetrical, as the Vet explained, there is a natural pocket there under the skin. In light of the location of that pocket, and the shape it takes when filled with fluid. Whatever then has caused this, if it resulted in fluid under the skin, the shape of the pocket could dictate the shape it would take on at this location on the squirrel's back, without having to be from a cyst to hold it to that shape.

Sciurus, that's a really good point about that pocket in the back between the shoulder blades. I have noticed that indentation in healthy squirrels in that area. That would make sense that the fluid could be absorbed back into the body without needing to drain. Also, that it could take a long time, especially if it is so big.

[Squirrellie]

I've been lurking for the past few days but didn't want to post an update until I saw specific changes in Rosie, and had some pictures.

I think the news is good! Please look at the pictures and tell me what you think. This morning, she came by and this is the first time I saw her since Friday. Here is a summary of her condition:

The bump looks (to me) much smaller, but still has the same oval, egg shape.

There is now a patch of fur loss, on the very top of the bump. It is about the size of a silver dollar. There are strands of partly pulled out fur around it, which suggests she has been scratching, so it's possibly bothering her or itching.

There is a little white patch which almost looks like scar tissue, and also some red marks. At first I worried that white patch was a maggot or something, but it is not moving and is too big. Maybe this is a scar from the original injury, and the red marks are scratches she made herself.

I did not see any visible drainage or pus (unless it's that white patch). The fur around the bald patch is dry and clean.

She looks and acts completely healthy and normal. Her eyes are bright, she is eating really well (she even ate a hardboiled egg yolk) and she moves easily, not like she is in pain or anything.

Here are some pictures taken this morning.

[Squirrellie]

Here are some more pictures. I tried to get a few close ups.

She has had this bump since at least Sept 10 or 11. It is probably it is not an abscess because she would be very sick by now with an infection that size, several of you have mentioned.

Would a regular (encapsulated) cyst get smaller on its own without draining?

Or it could still be a hematoma, or a botfly? If it's a botfly it will be due to come out during the first week of October. But it seems to be getting smaller.

A few other possibilities: maybe an allergic reaction to an insect bite, like a spider? Or she had a fight with another squirrel (Rosie's been in fights before, she has scalloped ears where she's been bitten) and maybe a tooth broke off or some dirt got embedded and caused the irritation and a cyst to form?

These are just speculations. What does everyone else think?

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

Reguardless of what it was its on the mend, it does look like white puss? (draining):alright.gif
She seems to feel good and gets a boiled egg to boot.
What a girl!:Love_Icon And beautiful scalloped ears.:rotfl

[Squirrellie]

Rippie,
I know, don't you love those ears:Love_Icon !

For some reason, my nursing mommies love hardboiled eggs:dono . The boys just sniff and turn away.

[Sarabi]

oh squirrlie thats a terrible looking bump there, but she seems to be acting ok, so glad you are on top of it, They seem to know when they need help don't they:Love_Icon

[Momma Squirrel]

Glad to see and hear that she is on the mend. Let's pray that it continues that way and ends up just being one of those awful botflies. Keep an eye on her as I am sure you are doing and let us know if any changes good or bad.

What a good momma :Love_Icon

[Sciurus1]

That is a very significant change from the photos before. And the ones in the shade here, in contrast to the ones in the sun, just showing an opening, and hair loss, with a reduced size to this lump, show what appears to be pus oozing from this wound. My hope is for it to clear soon, for now she is very vulnerable for getting a bot infestation with that opened wound.

[Squirrellie]

Sciurus,

I am worried about that, too. If the bump she already has isn't a bot, she could very easily get one, especially since it's raining today and I've heard bots are more common in wet weather.

I wish there was more I could do to help her, but I don't think there is any realistic way to prevent that happening, as any antibiotic ointment I could manage to put on her would be rubbed off quickly anyway.

Here are some pictures showing the progress of her bump. The "last week" one shows it one week ago, the "Wednesday" one shows it two days ago. She's in the same position, so it's easy to see that it's almost half the size it was. At least this is a good sign that it seems to be draining quickly. Hopefully it will finish draining and close up soon. Prayers for Rosie, please.

[Sciurus1]

It is smaller, and is draining. My concern is if there is something inside of it that has not come out yet; but that may yet resolve on it's own. There was another squirrel with a very similiar bump, just smaller, but in the same spot, interestingly enough, and that was an absess, which broke open, and healed up on it's own. The body does have a way then of dealing with such matters without intervention. Thing is, if it closes up, or gets bigger, and doesn't resolve, that may the have to be attended to to save her in order to save her babies.


Here are a pictures two squirrels with bot infestations. As you can see, they have a very different appearance than the lump on Rosie. Bots can be on the surface like in the first photo, or more embeded into the squirrel, as shown in the second photo. Of note as well, is the bot in the first worble is about to emerge, but the second one had not reached that stage at the time this photo was taken. As for Rosie, from the presense of an absess, and how it looks presently, it is not very likely from a bot too, but anything is possible, so keep watching.

[Squirrellie]

Those poor squirrels, those bots are just disgusting. I will definitely keep watching and keep you posted of any changes.

[JLM27]

Are botflys only found in certain geographic regions?

[Sciurus1]

I am not sure, but My husband said they had them in N.D. so I assume that they are common both in the northern and Southern regions, and in places it rains regularly, which both Florida and N.D. have in common.

[Squirrellie]

I have great news :wahoo :wahoo :wahoo

Rosie stopped by this morning and her bump is all gone! Whatever was in there has come out and all that is left is a patch of fur loss with some red scrapes and light scabbing. There is no sign of pus or infection. When you compare the pictures with how she looked a week ago, it seems like a small miracle!

Thank you so much to all of you who offered advice and prayers for Rosie. Although this is a happy ending for Rosie and her babies, I know that is not always the case for our precious squirrels. Although I did not need to intervene in this case, it was very comforting to know that help was available if it had become necessary.

Thank you again, TSB you're the best!:thankyou :thankyou

[Squirrellie]

Rosie says :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou Squirrel Board for your prayers!

[squirrel princess]

I have been watching this thread behind the scenes but a BIG http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_17_211.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZJxdm128MHUS) is instore for Rosie:thumbsup

[Snipe]

:thumbsup

:wahoo

That's great news, it really is hard dealing with wilds and trying to do what is best for them without causing further injury or stress

[Pam]

Great news! :wahooI am so happy that Rosie is better! She is a very special girl! :Love_Icon

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

Rosie says :thankyou :thankyou :thankyou Squirrel Board for your prayers!
What a beautiful face with scaloped ears.:)
And to answer someones question yes, botflys are alive and well in Pa. :yuck

It looks like Rosie is saying "do I look sick to you"?

[Frickster]

awww...that little squirrel tongue is precious!! what a sweet little girl!

[JudyB]

Lovely Rosie :Love_Icon
:alright.gif

[Sciurus1]

Somebody please archive these before during and after pics for future reference.

So glad this resolved in an otherwise healthy squirrel! Looking forward to seeing pics of her babies! :jump

[Peaches]

Oh I'm so glad Rosie is all better. I was just getting ready to post that you should DO NOTHING. I'm new here but I would like to throw in my two cents lol. As a rehabber and vet tech I can tell you with 17 yrs experience that "if it isnt broken dont fix it" (she wasnt sick) A bot fly would resolve itself. a walled off abscess will fill to its skin capacity, become itchy, get scratched at and then burst (might reform once the hole heals though, antibiotics would be recommended in this case). a cyst will shrink and return many times but would normally have a rounder shape. Tumors dont grow that fast. None of the above is life threatening. Most likely she got in a fight and this was an abscess, if its walled off they dont always get sick.
When it comes to wildlife please dont jump the gun to help, especially if there are babies involved. Getting her to a vet would have probably caused severe stress, she might have hurt herself seriously trying to get away and most if not all vets would sedate her to examine her, very possibly killing her. Oh and lets not forget if the squirrel somehow bites someone at the vets office they will want her euthanized and tested for rabies as per most states law. Remember no matter how "safe" an anaesthetic is or how good the vet is sometimes things just happen. Why chance it unless there is no other recourse.
If it is not absolutely necessary do not have a wild animal sedated, it is just not that safe. Also remember STRESS KILLS.
You did the right thing, I'm so glad it turned out well. Now you can breath a sigh of relief and start trying to get baby pictures :multi

[Momma Squirrel]

:jump :multi :wahoo OMG how did I miss this great news :thumbsup

I am so happy for you and Rosie. :bowdown

[Buddy'sMom]

Wonderful news and pictures!! :multi :multi :multi :multi It's just amazing that it went away so FAST! --- wonderful, but amazing!

:grouphug :Love_Icon :grouphug

[Squirrellie]

Oh I'm so glad Rosie is all better. I was just getting ready to post that you should DO NOTHING. I'm new here but I would like to throw in my two cents lol. As a rehabber and vet tech I can tell you with 17 yrs experience that "if it isnt broken dont fix it" (she wasnt sick) A bot fly would resolve itself. a walled off abscess will fill to its skin capacity, become itchy, get scratched at and then burst (might reform once the hole heals though, antibiotics would be recommended in this case). a cyst will shrink and return many times but would normally have a rounder shape. Tumors dont grow that fast. None of the above is life threatening. Most likely she got in a fight and this was an abscess, if its walled off they dont always get sick.
When it comes to wildlife please dont jump the gun to help, especially if there are babies involved. Getting her to a vet would have probably caused severe stress, she might have hurt herself seriously trying to get away and most if not all vets would sedate her to examine her, very possibly killing her. Oh and lets not forget if the squirrel somehow bites someone at the vets office they will want her euthanized and tested for rabies as per most states law. Remember no matter how "safe" an anaesthetic is or how good the vet is sometimes things just happen. Why chance it unless there is no other recourse.
If it is not absolutely necessary do not have a wild animal sedated, it is just not that safe. Also remember STRESS KILLS.
You did the right thing, I'm so glad it turned out well. Now you can breath a sigh of relief and start trying to get baby pictures :multi

:goodpost :goodpost :goodpost :goodpost :goodpost :goodpost

[Squirrellie]

I read all your responses and thanks so much to everyone for caring about Rosie! She's doing great, has an enormous appetite and I'm hoping for BABY PICTURES :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon soon, which I will post in the Grey Squirrel Forum.

Such a happy ending!

[island rehabber]

:goodpost :goodpost :goodpost :goodpost :goodpost :goodpost

:attention:bowdown:bowdown:bowdown

[Sarabi]

:jump :jump :jump So glad for a happy ending! :alright.gif Peaches :goodpost said it very well:bowdown

[Sciurus1]

a walled off abscess will fill to its skin capacity, become itchy, get scratched at and then burst (might reform once the hole heals though, antibiotics would be recommended in this case).

I fully agree in this case; and since it was an absess, should it reform, to trap her and treat it onsite, if possible; for If nothing was done to address that issue, in such a case, not only might she be lost, but her babies, that depend upon her, with her. I recall that a rehabber on this thread had noted there is an antibiotic that won't hurt her nursing babies. Considering though what their age likely is, they may well be weaned by the time should that reoccur, making this issue then mute, but the need for her to care for them still not.

[Pam]

S1, Rosie is doing great...she does not need any treatment. Whether her lump was a bot fly or an abscess, nature took care of it...and we are so thankful. :)

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

Oh I'm so glad Rosie is all better. I was just getting ready to post that you should DO NOTHING. I'm new here but I would like to throw in my two cents lol. As a rehabber and vet tech I can tell you with 17 yrs experience that "if it isnt broken dont fix it" (she wasnt sick) A bot fly would resolve itself. a walled off abscess will fill to its skin capacity, become itchy, get scratched at and then burst (might reform once the hole heals though, antibiotics would be recommended in this case). a cyst will shrink and return many times but would normally have a rounder shape. Tumors dont grow that fast. None of the above is life threatening. Most likely she got in a fight and this was an abscess, if its walled off they dont always get sick.
When it comes to wildlife please dont jump the gun to help, especially if there are babies involved. Getting her to a vet would have probably caused severe stress, she might have hurt herself seriously trying to get away and most if not all vets would sedate her to examine her, very possibly killing her. Oh and lets not forget if the squirrel somehow bites someone at the vets office they will want her euthanized and tested for rabies as per most states law. Remember no matter how "safe" an anaesthetic is or how good the vet is sometimes things just happen. Why chance it unless there is no other recourse.
If it is not absolutely necessary do not have a wild animal sedated, it is just not that safe. Also remember STRESS KILLS.
You did the right thing, I'm so glad it turned out well. Now you can breath a sigh of relief and start trying to get baby pictures :multi

:jump :bowdown :bowdown
Thank goodness for Rosies guardian who was patient and waited it out.
:Love_Icon :thumbsup

[Sciurus1]

S1, Rosie is doing great...she does not need any treatment. Whether her lump was a bot fly or an abscess, nature took care of it...and we are so thankful.

It was Peaches who wrote this counsel, not me, and others here quoted it above, sighting it as a GOOD POSTING, which I agree too that it is! Not sure why then you have addressed me over this, since clearly the first part I wrote was to reference her counsel by quoting it, and the last to highlight the most presently pertinent part of it for this matter, as to lend my support of that she had counseled, that is: to treat it IF the absess were to reoccur, just as she had noted. Perhaps you missed that the original post was by Peaches, or that it was for a possbile future occurrance? :dono

[Sciurus1]

Hi Squirrellie. I just happened to notice that in the first photos of Rosie, with the bump, there seems to be pistachios that were being fed to her then. I don't know if they were salted or unsalt, but I wanted you to know, just incase you were not aware, that salted pistachios are bad for squirrels; not sure about the unsalted ones though. I knew of a lady once, who had a squirrel she fed salted pistachios to very liberally, and when the squirrels hair fell out, wondered what might be causing it. Thankfully, a friend of hers, and mine knew why, and shared that it was from the high levels of salt it was ingesting, which would have caused the squirrel's death if she hadn't stop feeding them to it.

[Pam]

It was Peaches who wrote this counsel, not me, and others here quoted it above, sighting it as a GOOD POSTING, which I agree too that it is! Not sure why then you have addressed me over this, since clearly the first part I wrote was to reference her counsel by quoting it, and the last to highlight the most presently pertinent part of it for this matter, as to lend my support of that she had counseled, that is: to treat it IF the absess were to reoccur, just as she had noted. Perhaps you missed that the original post was by Peaches, or that it was for a possbile future occurrance? :dono

S1, I'm sorry...I had misread your post. I thought you were suggesting that the abscess be treated to keep it from reoccurring.

I do agree, Peaches' post was very good and informative.

[Squirrellie]

Hi Squirrellie. I just happened to notice that in the first photos of Rosie, with the bump, there seems to be pistachios that were being fed to her then. I don't know if they were salted or unsalt, but I wanted you to know, just incase you were not aware, that salted pistachios are bad for squirrels; not sure about the unsalted ones though. I knew of a lady once, who had a squirrel she fed salted pistachios to very liberally, and when the squirrels hair fell out, wondered what might be causing it. Thankfully, a friend of hers, and mine knew why, and shared that it was from the high levels of salt it was ingesting, which would have caused the squirrel's death if she hadn't stop feeding them to it.

Sciurus,
The pistachios were unsalted. I have heard that all salted nuts are very bad for squirrels or any wildlife, so I never put out anything salted. The pistachios were a special treat. Rosie's still doing great!!

[rippie-n-lilgirlsmom]

Sciurus,
The pistachios were unsalted. I have heard that all salted nuts are very bad for squirrels or any wildlife, so I never put out anything salted. The pistachios were a special treat. Rosie's still doing great!!
:Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon :Love_Icon

[Sciurus1]

Glad to hear that S. , just wanted to make sure you were aware of that bit of info, for your the sake of your squirrels. I am very happy to see Rosie doing so well!

The other squirrel that was sighted by a member having an absess break open, sometime back, had that clear up fine, as far as was told. Let's then hope this one will be the same. I sure wonder what caused this absess to begin with, for as you shared, she had disappeared for a day or so.