help peanut has a cold!!!!!1

[peanutsmama]

Hi all i know it's been awhile..but i'm back hope everybody is doing good..i don't know if you remember my squirrel peanut..well peanut has a cold runnie nose his breathing is crackley i've been giving him amoxl drops that i got from the vet..it doesn't seem to be helping him and the vet doesn't know alot about squirrels..is there anything i can do or give him to help him...any help would be great...:thankyou linda

[Mars]

Please refresh my aging memory. How old is Peanut? Is peanut a grey, fox or flier? Does Peanut tend to chew on his cage? Have you changed soaps or detergents? Brought new scented candles? New non stick pans or new carpet? Let me see with your eyes and perhaps we can come up with something. :)

[peanutsmama]

hello everything is the same...i have notice that he doesn't like the corn or peanuts like he used too...he is going on 3yrs old and he is a fox squirrel..he is still eating and drinking..is there vitimans i can give him..this is the first time he has ever been sick peanut has never chewed on his cage !!thank you for your help.

[Apple Corps]

How long and what dosage and what frequency have you been giving him amoxi drops?

How long have the symptoms been observed?

Are you hearing the "crackling" from the nose area or from deeper in the lungs?

[peanutsmama]

ok i've been giving him the meds for a week . i give him half of the droper full that came with it...in some applesauce....the cracking noise is from his nose it's stuff up..

[island rehabber]

Can you take a look at peanut's teeth and see if they are the proper length and growing correctly? Overgrown bottom teeth can pierce the roof of the mouth and nasal cavity and cause the sniffling you describe. If his teeth are fine, then he may have a respiratory infection and should be on Baytril or Sulfatrim, which are non-'cillin' drugs. Amoxi is really not great for rodents and can cause GI bleeding. (Thank you, LynninIN, for that important info.)

[peanutsmama]

were do i get the meds from do they sell a vet supply places

[Apple Corps]

How are the teeth - overgrown into the roof of the mouth or normal length?

If normal - a different antibiotic - as pointed out by others, is in order. Can you get a tablet of Cipro - that is human antibiotic that is very very close to Baytri? Your primary care physician may simply give you a "courtesy" tablet - we will work you through the dosage.

How much does Peanut weigh and how old is he?

[peanutsmama]

hi all i have a tablet of cipro, peanut is about 1 or 2 pounds and he is 3yrs old:thankyou his teeth are fine

[Apple Corps]

So - for a 1.5 pound fuzzer the dose would be 4mg - orally - twice daily.

Is your tablet a 100mg or 500mg or ??? tablet?

What size syringe do you have (for measuring - NOT INJECTING)?

[Apple Corps]

peanutsmama - can you give me a better weight for peanut - my dosage was for a 1.5 pound squirrel - is he 1 pound or 1.5 pounds or a 2 pounder - which is closer?

[peanutsmama]

it's a 500mg my syringe go's up to 2 tablespoons.. he is about 1 to 1 1/2 pound he has lost some weight

[Apple Corps]

Your syringe size in cc ??

Also - do you think you can cut the tablet in half fairly accurately?

[Apple Corps]

While you are checking out your syringe size:

Your tablet contains 500 mg of Baytril - so if we can cut it in half and dissolve 1/2 of the tablet in clean tap water we would have 250 mg of Baytril in solution.

If you have a 1 cc syringe - I would squirt 10 syringe fulls of water into a clean glass and dissolve the half tablet (250 mg) of Baytril in the 10 cc of water.

Then - just like a cooking recipe:

10 cc would give him all 250 mg
5 cc 125 mg
2.5 cc 62 mg
1.2 cc 31 mg
0.6 cc (1/2 of a 1cc syringe) 15 mg
0.3 cc 7 mg
0.15 cc 3 mg

Refrigerate the solution - you would have Peanut on the Baytril for about 10 days.

See how it works - just like ingredients in a recipe :D

[Apple Corps]

GB - Baby sure has some tree climbing nails :wahoo :wahoo

[Apple Corps]

it's a 500mg my syringe go's up to 2 tablespoons.. he is about 1 to 1 1/2 pound he has lost some weight

Can you drop by the drugstore and get a 1 cc syringe (no needle)? They may just give you a couple. Your other syringe sounds like it may be a 10 cc syringe (or bigger) - that will make accurate dosing more difficult.

[Apple Corps]

:rotfl Yes she does! :hurt :hurt :rotfl I let them go until I can't stand it anymore. I'm so afraid she is going to jump and try to grab onto something, and will fall, not having her CLAWS to grasp it. :tilt

I wouldn't want my arm to be what she grabs onto :shakehead

[Apple Corps]

peanutsmama - lets be sure to fine tune the dosage once you find out the syringe size and if you cab cut the tablet in half.

We can adjust the numbers quickly if you are unable to cut the tablet in half - we would just dissolve the entire tablet and change the amount of water / dose.

Is this making sense to you??

[Apple Corps]

peanutsmama - hello - where did you go??

[peanutsmama]

ok i'm gonna try to take a pic of him..the syringe i have has 1 throw 10 mg and on the other side it has 1 to 2 tsp on it

[Apple Corps]

ok i'm gonna try to take a pic of him..the syringe i have has 1 throw 10 mg and on the other side it has 1 to 2 tsp on it

1 through 10 "mg" or "cc" on it ?????

It really is toooooooo big. Go to the drug store and get a couple of 1 or 2 cc syringes please - that other one is not appropriate for meds at this dose level.

[Apple Corps]

Let's get Peanut on the Baytril this evening:

You need to get at least one 1 cc syringe and tell me if you can cut the tablet in half accurately...... If not - we will just dissolve the entire 500 mg tablet and go from there.

[peanutsmama]

ok cut the pill in half and got the right syringe now what do i do

[peanutsmama]

this is peanut

[Apple Corps]

OK - he is a cutie - instructions to follow :D

[Apple Corps]

So - 1/2 of a 500 mg tablet is 250 mg

Take a very clean glass and squirt 10cc of clean, cold tap water in it - that would be 10 1cc syringe fulls.

put the 1/2 tablet in it and let it dissolve - you now have 250 mg of "liquid Baytril"

The dosage will be .2 cc - you will draw up the Baytril solution to the .2 cc mark on the syringe (about 1/5 of the syringe) - it is a small amount.

Then - get it down him. You can try to squirt it in the back of his mouth (good luck). Another approach is to squirt the dosage into some grape flavored pedialyte - and redraw the pedialyte/Baytril drink into the syringe and give it a go.

Others please chime in with your "tricks" for getting fuzzers to slurp it down.

Two doses a day for 10 days - no exceptions please :-)

Clear as mud ?????

[rygel1hardt]

This squirrel is a fox squirrel that the owner has said also has weight loss. Judging by the picture there is more than just a sniffle problem and this squirrel should be seeing a vet, NOT be being diagnosed over the internet! The pic worries me greatly and I would feel much better if we could find this person medical help rather than antibiotic dosages that anyone with a computer can read. Just my personal opinion I understand but I have rehabbed several foxers and have never had one that thin so there is more to this than we know. Stacey

[Apple Corps]

Well - that is one firmly stated opinion. IF the problem is a bacterial infection, then there is a good chance that Cipro, being very broad spectrum, will be an effective treatment. If not, little harm will be done other than a possible delay in getting Peanut to a vet.

There is no claim to be "Dx" on the net - educated guesses and some associated Rx that will do little harm.

And - BTW - not everybody is comfortable at translating the 500 mg tablet into the appropriate liquid dose for a fuzzer.

[Squirlgirl]

I am a bit concerned about such a large weight loss.
Am I seeing this right?

When did the weight loss start?
:grouphug

[Apple Corps]

Is there a defined weight loss? I missed it other than a comment that there has been some loss.

[Squirlgirl]

How long have the "cold" symptoms been going on?

Any other significant change in activity, attitude?

:grouphug

[Squirlgirl]

:wave123 AC....
I looked back at past Peanut pics.
:grouphug

[rygel1hardt]

After posting I went back to some of Peanuts mommas original post and pics and this was a healthy weight gorgeous foxer back in May 0f 07 when the pics were posted. He is now very thin by comparison and I am very worried about this squirrel. Can anyone help with finding competent medical attention for this person and her sweet Peanut? Thanks everyone! Stacey

[Squirlgirl]

I am very sure, since Stacey rehabs Foxers, that she feels that more is happening here.

Its hard to see by the pics...does Peanut have a sniffly nose and runny eyes, also?
:grouphug

[Squirlgirl]

yikes...posting at the same time...:flash3

[Apple Corps]

I just looked at a May 07 photo and Peanut - in that pic - is - uh - obese.

Why the weight loss is an important question - but plump is not normal nor healthy.

Parasites - who knows. The Amoxi drops GIVEN BY A VET are not working. So.......... Cipro for several days to see if there is an improvement.

[Apple Corps]

Let me try this from a good ol southern perspective (no offense peanutsmama):

Anyone who thinks the May '07 pics of Peanut are of a healthy squirrel has spent way too much time at Cafe du Monde woofing down beignets :D :D

[rygel1hardt]

A very odd post AC. So you do see a marked weight loss! This is supposed to be about helping Peanut though right? I still say there is more here than meets the eye and this squirrels Momma needs to find good medical attention for this little guy ASAP! Stacey
Let me try this from a good ol southern perspective (no offense peanutsmama):

Anyone who thinks the May '07 pics of Peanut are of a healthy squirrel has spent way too much time at Cafe du Monde woofing down beignets :D :D

[Apple Corps]

Stacey, several thoughts:

Why all the red / oversized fonts - generally known as shouting on the internet? Most of us are capable of reading and understanding w/o being "scolded" by red/large fonts - we get your point of view.

Having Peanut lose some weight from what was a very heavy . overweight fuzzer to lighter might be a significant finding as to his current "sniffles" issue - it may have nothing to do with anything also.

Cipro for 3 or 4 days will hurt nothing - if it stops a bacterial infection then it will be a success. If not - then more Dx by a vet is needed. The Cipro treatment is underway (I guess) so we'll know shortly.

As I mentioned earlier, and agree, the cause of the weight loss needs to be uderstood - that may take some time. So - I provided the dosage calculation and recommend that Peanut get on it tonight - different opinion than yours - but I understand you point of view. Would I object to a thorough Dx work-up in the morning by a vet? Of course not, but that may or may not be an option - as is so often the case when it comes to care for fuzzers.

[Squirlgirl]

Does Peanuts' Mom understand that Cipro and Baytril are not interchangeable?

I am NOT here to argue.:peace

But there is often wayyyy more needed to know than "sniffles".

:grouphug

I hope Peanut feels better soon...:Love_Icon :Love_Icon

[peanutsmama]

ok lets start from the begining peanut was overweight so i cut down on his intake...peanut has lost more weight since the cold..my problem is that the vets here don't take care of squirrels and don't know too much...i have had him since before his eyes were open got blown out of a tree during hurricane rita...i bottle feed him and loved him ever since..the reason i ask for help is because the vet doesn't see squirrels..and i don't want him to die..and after the amox drops didn't work i got online this is the first time he has ever been sick or thin like this he has always been heathly...

[Apple Corps]

Does Peanuts' Mom understand that Cipro and Baytril are not interchangeable?

I am NOT here to argue.:peace

But there is often wayyyy more needed to know than "sniffles".

:grouphug

I hope Peanut feels better soon...:Love_Icon :Love_Icon

They ARE close enough - same class of drug - Cipro is somewhat more effective then Baytril.

[Apple Corps]

peanutsmama - I would urge you to proceed with the Cipro treatment starting this evening.

[LynninIN]

When diagnosing it is important to find the cause so that it can be properly treated. Just taking antibiotics is not always the answer. Diagnosing the root cause includes asking all coexisting symptoms. Weight loss is always an important factor and Peanut's weight loss is very important. The change in a little more than a year in Peanut's overall appearance is dramatic. He does not look healthy overall in fur pattern, posture or eyes. Peanut needs more that a few days of antibiotics. Amoxil isn't the best choice for squirrels because of it's potential for GI problems, not because it doesn't work. In fact, it covers more of the frequent anaerobic bacteria responsible for mouth, ear and sinus infections.

As I've stated before, there are significant differences between Cipro and Baytril. Cipro is approved for human use only and Baytril is approved for veterinary use only for good reasons. They have different chemical formulas, molecular masses, bioavailability and metabolism. Intestinal absorption seems to be the main problem with non-human mammals.

Quote:

Why the Use of Ciprofloxacin in Companion Animals is a Bad Idea
Richard Brown, DVM - Clinical Practitioner's Advisory Committee representing AAFP

The reason why the use of Ciprofloxacin, especially in canines and felines is not a sound medical decision is that the drug has a marked problem with bioavailability in these species. According to pharmacologists who have expressed concern about Ciprofloxacin, the drug is only 40% available to dogs and in cats the bioavailability is as low as 20%. This compares to humans who absorb almost 100% of oral Ciprofloxacin. Enrofloxacin, which has good bioavailability is in fact metabolized to several active compounds, one being Ciprofloxacin.


At times Cipro may be the only antibiotic available however Peanut has access to a vet so why prescribe over the internet? And we truly do not have studies in the bioavailability of Cipro in squirrels.

Cipro does not have better coverage the Baytril. In a lab when the body's processing systems are not a factor, the coverage is the same.

[LynninIN]

Peanut May of 2007 & July of 2008.

[JLM27]

OK, this is probably a dumb and unwanted question, but does Peanut get enough full spectrum light? I didn't notice if this topic was covered yet. Sorry if it is not an issue.

Is his diet complete? You mentioned that he was gaining too much weight and you cut down on his treats. Would the condition of his fur suggest that there is a nutrition problem?

[JLM27]

What a magnificent tail he has, BTW!

[Apple Corps]

Cipro is on hand and available tonight - Baytril is not. Studies on rodents is..........

There was NO suggestion that a few days of Cipro is the fix - simply that we will know w/i 2 or 3 days if it impacting the sniffles issue.

Other issues may still need to be Dx.

I would proceed with Cipro tonight.

[Squirlgirl]

Great questions JLM27.
Even tho Peanuts' intake was cut down, to shed a few pounds...what does Peanuts diet consist of?

Lynn is TOTALLY spot on.:bowdown

AC, as you can see in the chart that you posted...they are different.

My TRUTHFUL< HEARTFUL SQUIRREL LOVING belief is to get the proper Baytril dosage, with the EXACT weight, from the vet.......
BUT...not before expressing the concerns that you have, Peanuts Mom.:Love_Icon

Is this a life or death emergency? Or is it that Peanut is not getting better?

I would NOT proceed with a human drug, when a vet is available, possibly tomorrow, to get the right type and dosage.

That said.....:grouphug
TOTALLY nix the Black Oil Sunflower seeds.:grouphug

[Apple Corps]

JLM27 - helpful post :thumbsup :thumbsup

[Squirlgirl]

PM....does Peanut hold those sunflower seeds, to eat and crack, up in a squirrel stance, on hind legs....or hold them on the ground?

:grouphug

[Apple Corps]

Great questions JLM27.
Even tho Peanuts' intake was cut down, to shed a few pounds...what does Peanuts diet consist of?

Lynn is TOTALLY spot on.:bowdown

AC, as you can see in the chart that you posted...they are different.

My TRUTHFUL< HEARTFUL SQUIRREL LOVING belief is to get the proper Baytril dosage, with the EXACT weight, from the vet.......
BUT...not before expressing the concerns that you have, Peanuts Mom.:Love_Icon

Is this a life or death emergency? Or is it that Peanut is not getting better?

I would NOT proceed with a human drug, when a vet is available, possibly tomorrow, to get the right type and dosage.

That said.....:grouphug
TOTALLY nix the Black Oil Sunflower seeds.:grouphug

NO - the chart I posted shows them as the same class of drug.

Even if you believe all of Dr. Brown's "bioavailability study, 40% uptake is infinitely better then a much higher uptake of no drug.

I'm not sure of what you think Lynn is totally "spot on" about. peanutsmama has already articulated the issues of seeing a vet.

Let's all get real - we would love to ship every sick fuzzer off to Cornell or Tufts or whatever world class animal clinic - run full blood panels, tox screens, MRI, 64 bit cardiac CT Scans, ..........

In so many cases we can't even get a vet to listen to an issue. Rehashing how we need a proper Hx > Dx > Rx sounds nice but is not practically available.

If you got a vet visit lined up in the morning - go for it. If not, Cipro.

[Squirlgirl]

Being in the same class of drugs does NOT make one interchangeable with the other.

I AM NOT here to battle...Peanutsmom has her info.

I hope that she is in contact with someone that can get p'nut's history and actual symptoms as of now, to really help.


:grouphug

AC..are there any squirrel friendly vets in her area?

[Apple Corps]

Being in the same class of drugs does NOT make one interchangeable with the other.

I AM NOT here to battle...Peanutsmom has her info.

I hope that she is in contact with someone that can get p'nut's history and actual symptoms as of now, to really help.


:grouphug

AC..are there any squirrel friendly vets in her area?

So the net net of all of this is to tell peanutsmom that she should find someone that can "really help".

What an INSULT - and this thread should be an embarrassment to all of us!

[Squirlgirl]

Hmmm....AC:dono

An embarrasssssment? For what reason?

Because more info was needed????

As we know, quite often, there is ALOT going on behind the scenes.
I am just hoping that more info was gathered....is that a crime?
Please don't be like this.

The loveliness of TSB is that people that have experineced Foxer issues, as Stacey, can chime in.
Its ALWAYS about THE SQUIRREL... :)

:grouphug

[LynninIN]

First, I would like to apologize to Peanutsmom for the debate taking place in this thread. We all care about Peanut and want to help him feel better. If the debating is upsetting or distracting you, please feel free to start another thread about what is going on with Peanut.

I agree JLM's post is very helpful and questions in this line are exactly what is ultimately going to help Peanut. These questions and others are part of the diagnoses process that I was talking about and very doable. They should be asked and answered before any medication suggestions take place. We aren't talking about shipping squirrels off to any animal clinics, we are talking about the basics.

PM's first post was four days ago and a urge to contact her current vet or another never happened. She was just told to get a human medication and change from professionally prescribed one. The finding of GI issues in squirrels is very new and the vet/rehabber books still have it as an option so it can't be assumed the vet didn't know anything. Even if the vet is not very experienced in squirrels, they have more knowledge of animals in general than any of us. BTW: There are multiple studies that back up Dr. Brown's bioavailability study including Bayer, the maker of both antibiotics. They would have made a lot more money if they could have marketed both antibiotics to human and vet medicine but they couldn't because of their own studies that did not benefit them at all.

Once the Cipro tablet is mixed in water, it is only stable for a short period of time. 24 hours maximum.

I think it's very important to point out that rygel1hardt is a licensed rehabber, I'm not sure of her detail but she is not new at it.

Squirlgirl is also a licensed rehabber. She has rehabbed full time for many years and is the one that many (including the TSB licensed rehabbers) call when they have a problem. She has seen many of this boards squirrel though difficult medical problems. Squirlgirl usually stays behind the scenes but for some reason... ie Peanut felt the need to voice her experienced opinion on this case.

I myself have limited animal knowledge however, I've been a human practitioner for 16 years.

Yes, AC the purpose of this board is to help by answering what we can and knowing when to refer to a vet or licensed rehabber when something is clearly wrong. At times, appropriate care is not available then we should ask a million questions before suggesting a medication. I do not feel embarrassed by this thread. I've been on TSB for 2 years and never have felt so strongly about an issue to debate it until now. I do feel sorry for Peanutsmom that all of this happened in her thread and taken focus off of Peanut's health issue.

[Apple Corps]

Lynn - where in the world are you getting that Cipro is only stable for 24 hours once dissolved?

I personally spoke with Bayers research scientist in New Jersey and she had NO IDEA of any such study or finding that you just stated.

[4skwerlz]

I agree that the diagnosis is in question here, although a course of antibiotics probably couldn't hurt--obviously the first vet thought that was the way to go.

Since so far there is no experienced squirrel vet available, why don't we focus our efforts on:

1. Finding a good squirrel vet near Peanut's mom, and in the meantime,
2. Get some more background on Peanut, especially his diet, so we can rule out the easily fixable things like MBD.

Sniffling and nasal discharge sounds like Squarlet's problem, which turned out to be odontoma. Is there any eye redness or discharge?

Weight loss could be several things, including diabetes, MBD....many health problems can affect appetite and cause weight loss over time....

Peanut's Mom, sometimes when people care a lot, arguments can arise among us. But you won't find more people who care than right here on TSB.

[Apple Corps]

Lynn:

"I think it's very important to point out that rygel1hardt is a licensed rehabber, I'm not sure of her detail but she is not new at it."

And why is that important - rehabbers are the only ones that can have solutions??

[island rehabber]

Let's NOT go there again, ok? :nono Contention does nothing for the squirrel.
I am concerned, as I always am with a squirrel in long-term rehab OR an indoor pet situation, that diet may be a factor here. 4S and others are correct in urging us to get diet info so we can rule out MBD....or begin treatment for it. Squirlgirl and I are Baytril fans.....when it comes to upper respiratory or UTI it can't be beat, so I would agree that enrofloxacin may be the best bet. Peanut's sniffling, if not caused by odontoma like Squarlet's, could be pneumonia and again, nothing better than Baytril for that. Just my two cents.

[Buddy'sMom]

There was a recent thread in Off Topic discussing Cipro vs. Baytril. http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?p=241596#post241596

I have just bumped that thread in the hopes that this part of the discussion can be redirected and carried out in a separate place. It is a very good discussion and helpful to get everyone's info, data, thoughts, opinions, etc. ........ but not here.

Then, perhaps, this thread can be refocused on what's going on with Peanut and how to best proceed with Peanut's specific needs. :peace

Peanutsmama, I hope he is feeling better ... and that his health problems and needs can be quickly figured out so Peanut gets all the treatment he needs to get better soon!! :thumbsup :Love_Icon

:grouphug :Love_Icon :grouphug:thumbsup :Love_Icon

[JLM27]

Peanut's Mom, are you still even reading this thread? I would be very confused by this time if I were you. As a non-combatant, let me say that the bottom line consensus that I observe seems to be:
1. Seek a vet (carefully if squirrels are illegal in your state)
2. Start him on an anti-biotic immediately (If you have Cipro use the Cipro), but start finding immediately out where you can get the Baytril.
3. Make sure he is getting enough daylight.
4. Review his diet with some one on TSB who has taken deep dives into that subject, maybe as a PM.
5. Try to have an expert check his toofers. Has he had hard things to chew, like these cuttlebone and hard branches I hear about? If not, teeth could be his problem.:thinking
Chin up! Patience with us for trying to get it right.

[peanutsmama]

ok peanut eats sitting on his hind legs or sometimes he hangs upside down and nibbles on his food...i give him corn,sunflower seeds (not the ones we eat made for bird or squirrel) he gets peanuts and other nuts..for treats he gets some applesauce or fresh fruit or alittle bit of yogret.. i have notice that his nose dosen't run all the time it like you know when you get a cold and your nose runs and it gets all stuff up and you have go blow it well he will sneeze and seems to breathe better

[4skwerlz]

I'm afraid Peanut's diet is severely deficient in several essential nutrients. You must get him on a diet of 70% rodent block or squirrel blocks, plus healthy veggies and fruits from the list Gammas posted. No more than two nuts per day and no corn or sunflower seeds.

Nutritional deficiencies can cause all sorts of symptoms. Loss of appetite can indicate MBD, in which case Peanut will also need extra calcium. No matter what else is going on with Peanut's health, you need to get him on a proper diet right away.

[JLM27]

We all love Peanut!:grouphug
Geez, I hope Peanut agrees about his diet! He must be a bit spoiled for nuts by now. Mine are wild so I don't give them anything but, although they have been know to take some apple slices.

Are the "critter scones" that 4skwerlz invented as good as rodent blocks or better? I read that people had better success with getting their furry pals to eat them than they did with rodent blocks.

Peanut's Mom, you are going to have a real challenge to your love and patience to make a significant change!

Did you tell us about the light? Does Peanut get enough full spectrum light? I apologize if you already answered this.
A
lso, it's expensive, but folks on another thread are talking about an immune booster called Nutriferon from Shaklee. I think on the "What can this be. . . " thread.