Tree squirrel with aspiration pneumonia

[Barb d]

Please help! I am a first time rehaber with a little guy that has aspiration pneumonia. He showed symptoms last Sunday and has been to the vet and is on smz-tmp 2 times a day. He is about 4 weeks with eyes just starting to open yesterday . I am keeping him warm with a vaporizer running in his room. He no longer seems to have fluid on his nostrels but he is still clicking (milder than before meds). He has begun ocassionally making a sweaky sneezy noise( he makes a few noises then stops ,) his belly seems a little bloated. What can I do for the little guy? He was eating well most times but seems to be not very hungry today. He urinated after both feedings but has not had a bowel movement today( usually is urinating and pooping fine). Please give me all the suggestions that you can. Slight signs of dehydration. Thank you ,Barb P.S. What are signs of improvement or deepening problems?

[4skwerlz]

A rehabber will be here shortly. In the meantime,

1. Get him warm. Is he on heat? Make him a rice buddy. Sock full of rice microwaved for about 20 seconds.

2. Get him hydrated. Do not feed formula til he's fully rehydrated. Use Pedialyte, nice and warm.

:Welcome

[Barb d]

He's very warm. In small bowl on heating pad room @ 75 degrees and he's cocooned in fleece. Vet gave him under the skin saline solution with electrolytes and told me to keep feeding him formula, I had put him on rehydrating solution previously. Vet gave him 60/40 chance.

[4skwerlz]

He's very warm. In small bowl on heating pad room @ 75 degrees and he's cocooned in fleece. Vet gave him under the skin saline solution with electrolytes and told me to keep feeding him formula, I had put him on rehydrating solution previously. Vet gave him 60/40 chance.

They can't digest formula when they're dehydrated. That could cause the loss of appetite and bloating. How badly dehydrated? Also, what formula were you feeding and at what strength?

[Apple Corps]

Get him on Baytril NOW NOW NOW

smz - tmp is that a sulfa drug???

[Barb d]

Not sure of the name of formula. It's the one the rehab program gave me. I mix 1 tablespoon of dry formula with 2 tablespoons of water.

[Barb d]

Slight signs of skin tenting. New at this so not completely sure of degrees.

[4skwerlz]

Rehydration is critical. Does his belly feel hard or soft? The rehabbers will advise on the antibiotic.

[Apple Corps]

If the skin flattens within about a second hydration is close to OK.

He needs to be on an antibiotic quickly - Baytril - which any vet will have - is the way to go.

Please DO NOT delay - death can occur quickly.

[Barb d]

Can I just call my dog vet and ask for Baytril? How do i get it ? And is this safe with his sulfa meds?

[Barb d]

His belly is soft and slightly bloated.

[Apple Corps]

Yes - your vet can give him a Baytril injection OR an oral dose and carry on with oral Baytril. I'd forget about the Sulfa treatment if that is what it is.

How much does your lil fuzzer weigh in ounces - I'll help with the dosage.

[Barb d]

Not sure of weight nurse said I believe 80 but I'm not sure. Tiny little guy.

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

smz-tmp is a sulpha drug. They are excellent for pneumonia. I use Sulphatrim on all of my babies that come in with pneumonia and it works great. I have used baytril on a couple of the really bad cases, but I like the sulphatrim better.

[4skwerlz]

Please continue with rehydration. Other signs of dehydration: pale grayish gums, dry mouth, sunken eyes, whites around eyes showing, rough spiky fur, dry scaly skin.

Keep his nostrils as clear as you can.

A lot of the rehabbers here swear by Baytril, as Apple Corps suggested.

You said his clicking is better?

I see SR&BT is here. I will leave you in her capable hands. Good luck.

[Loopy Squirrel]

He needs to be switched to another antibiotic. If the sulfa doesn't work than you need to go w/ a more hard core one like Baytril. Stop formula feeding and go to pedialyte. He may be bloating because he is inhaling air into the stomach. Is he doing open mouth breathing? He may need to be maintained on sub-Q (under the skin) until his bloat is better. He is very serious right now. He may need a dose of lasix to help pull the fluid off his lungs but if he is dehydrated that'll dehydrate him more. Start the fluids now. Do you have a nebulizer? If you don't it may be a good idea to get him back to the vet and ask them to do a nebulizing treatment w/ albuterol.

[Barb d]

Don't have a nebulizer. I have given my dog insulin shots under the skin for 2 yrs. I have very small needles for that . Should I try to hydrate him under the skin? I go with your advice.

[4skwerlz]

Don't have a nebulizer. I have given my dog insulin shots under the skin for 2 yrs. I have very small needles for that . Should I try to hydrate him under the skin? I go with your advice.

Is he breathing with his mouth open?

[Apple Corps]

My GUESS is that his weight is 80 grams - almost three ounces - sound about right??

AS mentioned - the sulfa antibiotic he is on (Bactrim) can work well. It is a bacteriastat - it does not KILL the bacteria - it stops bacteria reproduction. It works well when the infection is caught early. If the infection is more advanced - you would use a more powerful antibiotic that actually KILLS the bacteria (a bacteriacide) - like Baytril.

The "chances" the vet gave for your lil fuzzer suggest to me a more advance infection - Baytril would be my choice.

S&BR - that was my thinking it going with Baytril.

[4skwerlz]

Don't have a nebulizer. I have given my dog insulin shots under the skin for 2 yrs. I have very small needles for that . Should I try to hydrate him under the skin? I go with your advice.

Keep pushing warm fluids by mouth, drop by drop if you have to. If you've never done sub-q fluids, then that would be a last-ditch effort.

The vaporizer you mentioned should help.

[Barb d]

Yes he opens his mouth a little when breathing. Tried to get him to drink some rehydrating solution but no intrest, but he did just have 1 1/2 cc of formula at 11 oclock ( pre talking to you- didn't know- taken him off formula)

[4skwerlz]

Yes he opens his mouth a little when breathing. Tried to get him to drink some rehydrating solution but no intrest, but he did just have 1 1/2 cc of formula at 11 oclock ( pre talking to you- didn't know- taken him off formula)

Then he might not be able to swallow without choking. Let me get you some better help.

[4skwerlz]

Hang on, Thundersquirrel is here. (I guess SR&BT had to leave.)

[Loopy Squirrel]

The problem is if he can't breath than he can't drink. Can you get him back to the vet?

[Barb d]

Got an appointment at 330 today with vet. Hope it will help

[Barb d]

Thanks everyone for all the care and help. Thankfully the other 3 little guys are doing well. Maybe I wasn't meant to be a rehaber, good intentions have killed many an innocent life. I was trained and still managed to give the poor little guy pneumonia I'll let you know the results of the vet visit.

[Barb d]

He did poop and pee when I was offering him something to drink. Making rice buddy now.

[island rehabber]

Barb d you've gotten a lot of good advice here so I won't muddy the waters. However, since he is pooping/peeing normally, chances are the bloat if any is not serious. The pneumonia IS, so it's most important to get effective meds into him. If he has not improved considerably since Sunday I would also switch to the Baytril. You should have seen marked improvement by now.....clicking will often stop within 6 hours so if it hasn't, you need to step up to a stronger med,

Here's hoping you're on your way to the vet and this little guy will be ok!

[Barb d]

Your right I appoligize.

[Loopy Squirrel]

It just takes time and you'll get the hang of it. Don't beat yourself up. You are doing the best that you can.

[Abacat]

Barb,
Exactly when was he started on the smz-tmp? I use the sulfa drugs with all my squirrels for pneumonia, and it reacts very quickly. If he hadn't shown any significant signs of improvement, I would check back with the vet.
It's also gentle to the gastrointestinal tract, so less chance for diarrhea. Pleasant tasting for the squirrelies too. Just make sure the squirrel is well hydrated with any sulfa drug. Good luck!
I'm sending prayers. :grouphug
What size syringe are you using? That could make a big difference as well.
Don't give up, you're doing your best to help save lives, without you they wouldn't have that chance. Hang in there, we're here for you. :grouphug
Oh, and :Welcome

[Mountain Mama]

Don't give up on your baby, Barb, but more importantly, don't give up on YOU. You are doing a wonderful job. Please keep us posted.

[Abacat]

What are signs of improvement or deepening problems?
You will know when the baby feels better, he will nurse enthusiastically, and have more energy. When they are listless, lethargic, want to sleep, and don't want to nurse...something is going on. If the baby refuses to eat two meals, and has any of the above things going on that's usually early symptoms. The clicking, open mouth breathing and extremely weak and lethargic are more advanced signs of pneumonia. Symptoms usually take a few days to develop, but the earlier it's caught the better. Any other rehabbers chime in if I'm missing anything here...

[Loopy Squirrel]

Nope, thats pretty much it. The missing feedings and being lethargic are the biggest symptoms that something is wrong.

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

Sorry I left. I had to feed all my guys. I am back now. How did the vet visit go?

If he has been on SMZ-TMP since Sunday and is showing no signs of improvement, I agree with AC that he needs to get onto something stronger. It sounds like he might have had a REALLY bad case of pneumonia though and is starting to improve, in which case I would keep him on the sulpha drug instead of switching. I have found that with the serious cases it takes the sulpha drugs a full day sometimes 2 before you really start to see improvement. How long has he been on meds?

As far as feeding him, the most important thing is to get him hydrated, but he does need the formula to grow as well. I wouldn't recommend rehydration fluids only for more than 24 hours. Maybe you could do rehydration fluids for today and then tomorrow start alternating between rehydration fluids and diluted formula (I would start him back on 4:1 milk if he is still dehydrated tomorrow). You will want to see what kind of formula you are feeding him too. The acceptable kinds are: Esbilac (best choice!), Zoologic 33/40, and Fox Valley milk for squirrels, cottontails, and opossums (I personally don't like this stuff, but others have used it with great success).

Has he taken any fluids or is he refusing to swallow? I have found that in a lot of serious pneumonia cases (I have had my fair share come in with it from the wildlife center where I volunteer) the best thing you can do for them is give them a break and let the antibiotics kick in. If he is struggling to breath with fluids in his lungs, he will be sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much worse off if he gets a couple ccs of fluids but ends up aspirating again. What I do is tube feed my babies so I am sure it is going straight to their stomach and not getting in their lungs. That won't work if you don't have a LOT of experience tubing though. The other thing you can do to give his respiratory system a break is to Sub Q him the fluids. I think at this point, that is the best option. Do you have lactated ringers Sub Q fluids? Have you ever sub Qd an animal before? You said you got these babies from a rehab center? Maybe they could show you how to Sub Q or maybe your vet could?

[Barb d]

Got back from the vet and just finished feeding my other little ones. The vet wasn't very concerned about the bloating and dehydration. He said they were mild. But the pneumonia is bad. He weighs 80 grams and is on 50/50 solution baytril and saline, getting .04. He began coughing again but it ceased when I got him back into the hot steam from the shower and vaporizer. He was hungry but has trouble eating.Actually sucking on his own leg. I did feed him 1 cc of formula one drop at a time( hates rehydration solution- always had difficulity getting him to eat it). Vet suggested every other feeding rehydrating solution them formula. The rice buddy helped , he likes it. Should I wait before feeding him again or feed small meals? He still can suckle a little and pulls ands bites on the surange. Truthfully I'm scared every time I have to feed him. What's the best way? Should I try to learn how to feed durectly into the stomach or wait and see if the baytril helps so he can suckle? Also I worry about feeding my other little ones. They eat so eagerly that they literally pull the plunger down and sometimes they start to cough. That's what I think happened to little guy. I feed them every 5 hours( 6am 11am 4pm and 9pm). I was feeding every 4 hours 5 times per day and they didn;t show much interest.

[Mars]

If baby weighs 80 grams I would be using a 1cc syringe. The method is tap swallow, tap swallow. Let the baby set the pace. With your sick little angel I would suggest trying to get in at least 2cc of formula and then 2 hours later 2cc of fluids. If he/she doe not like LR you can try a flavored pedilyte. The fluids between meals should help increase it's appetite. When baby is taking 4cc ( 5% of bady weight in grams ) you should be able to stop the fluids.

Something else that I would suggest is a product called Bioplasma ( or cellsalts or biosalts ) sold in heath food stores. I put one tablet in the formula twice daily - first and last feeding. This is supportive care and can be discontinued when everything is back on track.:)

[Barb d]

By tap swallow, tap swallow do you mean tap their tounge with the nipple and put in one drop of food then remove the nipple? Repeat after they swallow. Also what flavor of pedilyte do squirrels like?

[Abacat]

Barb, try holding the end of the syringe so that the two tabs are ontop your index and middle finger. Tap/(push) gently a small amount of formula each time the baby pushes, allow him to swallow before the next push of the syringe plunger. Watch him to see what the sucking rhythm is and try to follow that. (However, if you have a baby with a strong sucking reflex, you'll need to hold back the plunger.)

I wouldn't remove the nipple each time, just watch him and take your lead from his rhythm, when he pushes, you gently push. Good Luck!
I've never used the pedialyte, but I'd think any fruit flavor would be popular...:dono

Please keep us posted, wishing the best. :grouphug

[Barb d]

I'm going to answer the last of the questions that I didn't get to respond to earlier. I'm checking on the type of formula tomorrow and will get the type you recommend if different and then get the directions to switch them over carefully. He was on Sulphatrim for 2 and 1/2 days ( 5 doses) His breathing through his mouth eased when the room is filled with humidity. I use a 3 cc syringe ( but switching to a 1cc for little guy) I fill it to 2 1/2 cc then express to to @ 2cc to eliminate air bubbles. But I was shaking the formula to mix it. Now I'm going to make it the night before. Thanks everone for all the wonderful info and hints that you've given me. I've made a notebook of the suggestions. You've given little guy a fighting chance, Thanks again. Will keep you posted on his condition and will probably be asking for more help. THANKS THANKS THANKS

[Loopy Squirrel]

I have had luck w/ orange pedialyte.

[4skwerlz]

Hang in there, Barb. Don't give up. We need every rehabber, and you sound very dedicated. The skills will come with a little practice. We have fabulous :Love_Icon rehabbers:Love_Icon here who will be glad to help you along. Don't forget that without you, this little guy would have had no chance at all. :grouphug

[LynninIN]

AS mentioned - the sulfa antibiotic he is on (Bactrim) can work well. It is a bacteriastat - it does not KILL the bacteria - it stops bacteria reproduction. It works well when the infection is caught early. If the infection is more advanced - you would use a more powerful antibiotic that actually KILLS the bacteria (a bacteriacide) - like Baytril.


Sulfatrim is bactericidal, not bacteriostatic. This means it kills bacteria, not just inhibit it's growth. Sulfatrim (SMZ-TMP) is a combination of sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim the same as Bactrim used in humans to treat many gram positive and gram negative bacteria. Example: It is powerful enough to currently be the antibiotic of choice for MRSA infections which has a high-level resistance to ciprofloxacin . I'm not disagreeing with changing to another antibiotic if there is not improvement, just wanted to clarify the information on Sulfatrim.

Don't give up on rehabbing Barb! :grouphug The squirrels and other critters need you. TSB has experienced rehabbers that will help you...all you have to do is ask. No question is without merit.

[Apple Corps]

Lynn - my read is that it is bacteriostat in that it inhibits folate synthesis - necessary for cell division. There is some debate that the combo might be classified as either:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactrim TMP-SMZ

[Apple Corps]

Barb - good news that he is now on Baytril - I believe that will give him the best chance for recovery.

How are you feeling about the feeding position, process and syringe now?

Keep up the good work - you are giving him a fighting chance.

When you get a breather - what is the Baytril dosage - once a day orally I am guessing?

I'm out to Starbucks for a few minutes - back in 20 :-)

[thundersquirrel]

hey, sorry i wasn't on earlier. my internet was acting up.

hope everything works out ok! :Love_Icon

[wheezer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactrim TMP-SMZ[/QUOTE]

Just for a heads up about Wikipedia..It is run by anyone who wants to add something. I have been mislead more than once using this site. It is not an "expert" advice place but a good place to start.

[wheezer]

Barb please know you are wonderful:thumbsup None of us start in rehab work as experts. We all learn more through experience than classes:)

[Apple Corps]

wheezer - I cross confirmed my info at four sites (including Roche) prior to posting - meds and dosages are too important to rely on a single site.

[Apple Corps]

Barb - prayers for your lil guy tonight - please tell us about the Baytril dosage regimen the vet prescribed. I would give another dose late tonight or very early in the morning given how serious a case he appears to have. It is not uncommon to have a stepped up dosage "bolus" to try and get ahead of the infection.

I pray for good news in the morning mjs mjs

[wheezer]

wheezer - I cross confirmed my info at four sites (including Roche) prior to posting - meds and dosages are too important to rely on a single site.
Thanks AC....glad you said this because like I said, Wikipedia scares me a little:)

[Apple Corps]

wheezer - like you said - it makes a good place to start. I just hope the vet got a large enough dosage calculated given how severe this sounds.

Prayers for the morning.

[Barb d]

You guys are unbelievable!!!! I know you saved little guys life yesterday!!!!!!! He woke up this morning moving all around his kennel with an appitite! Squeeking at me to be fed. No more sneezing or coughing or CLICKING!! I'm still running the vaporizer and continuing steam treatments. His bloat is gone and he doesn't seem dehydrated. Still going to give him pedilyte every feeding for a while.He did get another dose of meds last night after the bedtime feeding ( he hates the taste- oh well too bad he's gonna get it anyway!) He's on oral Baytril (a solution of 50/50 saline and baytril) .04 two times per day for at least 10 days. On my way to town buy pedilyte and your other suggestions. Still working on getting them to slow down when feeding but trying your suggestions. One question about my 4 1/2-5 week old girl.( She's really big for her age -so I told) She always urinates after feeding but is not pooping as frequently when stimulated ( she seems healthy no bloat and there is always poop in her blanket) is this a problem? Thanks again everyone you are GREAT!!!!!!! Sorry meant to say giving him pedilyte every other feeding.

[island rehabber]

Prayers have been answered. :) :thumbsup

[Mars]

About a week after openning their eyes they should be pretty much peeing and pooping on their own. Now remember they have never heard of this rule and each is an individual. But I think if you are seeing poop in the blankies everything is fine. I keep simulating until I am sure each is doing it consistantly on their own :thumbsup

[4skwerlz]

Great job, Barb! :thumbsup

[Buddy'sMom]

:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

[Mountain Mama]

:fireworks Wonderful news!!! :fireworks




Thank You Lord!!!

[Apple Corps]

Barb - this is the news we all prayed to hear this morning - the way to start the day :wahoo :wahoo :wahoo

However - some caution on how much salt he is getting via the saline in addition to the pedialyte. A number of the experienced rehabbers here have stressed that pedialyte is fine for a day or so - that is it though.

Did the vet mix the Baytril and saline for you or are you mixing it?

[anneke]

Barb,

You have done a stupendous job saving this baby :thumbsup

And, please don't feel disheartened by the challenges that go along with rehabbing. Despite the best care, some still won't make it..:(

As to Baytril- my birds have always hated it- the stuff takes nasty. Sometimes it can be formulated with something tasty, but I don't know that those things are options for wild things. What might work it to have the med syringe and some formula to chase it with so the nasty taste gets washed right away and the baby doesn't come to associate the syringe with that icky flavor.

I'd like to know how others make sure that they get to complete a full course of antibiotics, especially when it tastes to vile.

[wheezer]

Great news:multi

See Barb, you did it:wott You knew enough to come to this board and do everything you could possibly do.:bowdown

And :bowdown :grouphug for this Board!

[Pam]

Sulfatrim is bactericidal, not bacteriostatic. This means it kills bacteria, not just inhibit it's growth. Sulfatrim (SMZ-TMP) is a combination of sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim the same as Bactrim used in humans to treat many gram positive and gram negative bacteria. Example: It is powerful enough to currently be the antibiotic of choice for MRSA infections which has a high-level resistance to ciprofloxacin . I'm not disagreeing with changing to another antibiotic if there is not improvement, just wanted to clarify the information on Sulfatrim.



Lynn, you are correct. We checked in the Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook.
Sulfamethoxazole is bacteriostatic, trimethoprim is bactericidal. Sulfatrim is bactericidal.

[island rehabber]

I'd like to know how others make sure that they get to complete a full course of antibiotics, especially when it tastes to vile.

If the squirrels are still on formula by syringe, I sneak it into their Esbilac or some fruit-flavored Pedialyte. Sometimes they notice right away -- you can see it in their faces, "eeew!!" -- and you have to just hit that plunger real quick and shoot it in there :rotfl. Not dangerously quick, mind you, but faster than the squirrel can pull back from the syringe. It's when you need to dose an older squirrel that it gets really tricky. Avocado usually works....or a pecan.

[Barb d]

Hi, Little guy still doing great, a little sneezing every now and then. Really wanted his lunch and loved the orange pedilyte. While he was waiting for lunch he must have sucked on his legs they were wet and I know when I moved him 45 minutes ago they were dry. I wanted to feed him last so I could take a really long time and make sure he drank well. Is this normal? They were all very hungry even though I had finished feeding them less than 4 1/2 hours ago. As for the mixing of the baytril and saline , the vet did it so it was easier to get the dose right. If there is a concern about salt, how long would you suggest I alternate formula with pedilyte? Vet suggested a few days. Also can you freeze some of the pedilyte right away for a future date if needed? The bottle was large and it says to use within 48 hours.

[Apple Corps]

Barb - a couple of days total should be fine with the pedialyte. Sounds like you have things going just right.

[Mars]

You are doing fine.:thumbsup You can freeze the pedilyte. I would suggest using and ice cube tray so you only have to take out what you need at a time. :)

Question - is he sucking on his legs or could he possibly be leaking urine? Are only his legs wet? :thinking

[Barb d]

Just his legs are wet and yesterday I saw his sucking on his legs while he was waiting to eat.

[Mars]

Hmmm. Not normal. But not something to be concerned about either is my guess. He should out grow it. You can put a piece of rodant block in with him and see if he will teethe on that instead of his legs. :)

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

I got leg suckers right now too :D . 5 girls and I guess since their aren't any boys in the group to suck on, they go with eachothers legs. Right at the knee seems to be the preferred spot.

Your question about is it normal for them to act REALLY hungry after just 4 and a half hours: yes. Squirrels that suck the syringe like they are starving is a sign that you have happy healthy babies :thumbsup .

Glad to hear the sick little girl is feeling better. Keep up the good work. You are doing a great job!

[Apple Corps]

Lynn, you are correct. We checked in the Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook.
Sulfamethoxazole is bacteriostatic, trimethoprim is bactericidal. Sulfatrim is bactericidal.

Pam - fyi:

In combination with a sulfonamide such as sulfamethoxazole, which inhibits folate biosynthesis, the antibacterial spectrum of TMP was extended, greater potency was achievable with lower doses resulting in fewer side effects, and bactericidal power was increased compared to the more bacteriostatic activity of the single components. With or without a sulfonamide, however, a feature of antifolate action is the cessation of nucleotide biosynthesis coincident with disruption of folate metabolism.

There is an increase in the "bactericidal power" when they are compounded - but are still viewed as bacteriostatic - it is the cascading effect of the two agents - both inhibiting replication (static) that produces a killing effect on some - though not all - of the targeted organisms.

Trimethoprim is a static class - it interferes with replication - not cidal:



Tetrahydrofolate synthesis pathway
Trimethoprim acts by interfering with the action of bacterial dihydrofolate reductase, inhibiting synthesis of tetrahydrofolic acid. Tetrahydrofolic acid is an essential precursor in the de novo synthesis of the DNA nucleotide thymidine. Bacteria are unable to take up folic acid from the environment (i.e. the infection host) and are thus dependent on their own de novo synthesis. Inhibition of the enzyme starves the bacteria of nucleotides necessary for DNA replication.

[Apple Corps]

This drugs method of action might better be "clarified or debated (whatever we are doing) on another thread so as to not distract Barb from the main goal here - curing her lil fuzzer.

[Loopy Squirrel]

I usually will start w/ the sulfa if the infection is a mild one because SMZ works well on respiratory. However, if the infection is bad or the sulfa isn't working I'll switch to something more hard core. I don't like to start w/ the hard core stuff if it isn't needed because I don't want to create a resistance to the Baytril. I have found that some people ( not u AC) automatically want to start out w/ the hard core stuff and that isn't always wise. The SMZ used to work very well for many different bacterias and now it doesn't. That is because it was over used and many bacterias are now resistant. In Barbs case it was obvious that the med wasn't working and I think AC realized this early on, hence the need for Baytril. The most important thing is to follow through the full course of antibiotics so that you don't create a resistance by starting and stopping. Barb is doing a great job and was smart enough to realize that the baby was getting worse instead of better. The most important thing is the baby is getting better.

[Abacat]

Well said Loopy, I agree totally.
Glad to hear of baby's recouping!:jump Anything new? Got any pics? :poke :D

[Barb d]

Hi again, It's been busy around here with family functions. Little guy was doing really well until tonight. He began wheezing and clicking again. I have tried to feed him extra carefully and have not noticed him inhaling formula. I turn him upside down once or twice while feeding him and check just to make sure. He was eating well and was squirming around his kennel then tonight he began wheezing. I had given him a dose of baytril at 6pm Sunday . I did give him another dose at 1am this morning. Did I get liquid in his lungs? What should I do, bring him back to the vet? What am I doing wrong? How can I help him?

[Loopy Squirrel]

Keep giving the baytril. If you stop now you will create a resistance. The antibiotic is probably still working. If he aspirated again then he will need to continue on the baytril. It is possible to aspirate w/ out it coming out of the nose. Did the baby suddenly pull of the syring at any time or crinkle his nose and pause while feeding? These can be signs that the formula is still coming out too fast for him to swollow.

[4skwerlz]

Try slowing down with the feeding. Also, make sure the baby's head is higher than his body, and feed with the tip of the syringe pointing UP toward the baby's mouth and the handle pointing DOWN.

I personally find the syringes really hard to control; it takes a lot of practice!

[Barb d]

Thank you, I'll keep trying. When he woke up today he seemed good then after feeding he started again. I am trying the tap suck method but I can't seem to get the timing down.The little guy likes to suck on the syringe so hard that he pulls the plunger right down. I am trying to control that by holding my finger against the plunger but yes he occasionally does spit out the nipple and then I turn him upside down to see if he sneezes. Do you think I need to bring him to the vet again? Should I bring this little guy to a more experienced rehaber? I don't want to make him sicker. Everyone has been a great help and thank you again.

[island rehabber]

barb d are using the O-ring, or Leuer Lock syringes? They are the best and you should not have so much trouble if you're using them. If not, here's a quick way to get them: http://www.squirrelsandmore.com/category/1434/oring-syringes.htm

It's not unusual for a squirrel with pneumonia to relapse and start clicking again; it happened to me twice and both babies recovered. Keep up the Baytril and I'll bet he pulls through for good this time. :thumbsup

[Apple Corps]

Barb - please read this link - look at Enrofloxacin:

http://www.rmca.org/Articles/dchart.htm

[Barb d]

I'm using a syringe like "d" a 3 cc slip tip with a silicone nipple with a nipple like "g" modified by cutting off the long nipple part and only using the base slipped over the silicone nipple about 1/3 inch.

[fltech]

Just keep your baby on the prescribed dosage of Baytril. It would be a good idea to nebulize also. If you don't have a nebulizer, the vets will usually do it
for you. If you are able to get a hold of a nebulizer, maybe your vet would give you a script for Albuterol.

Good luck!

[Barb d]

I read the article about enrofloxacin. Should I be increasing his dosage? If so by how much and how do I get more baytril? I don't think the vet would just up the dose, he's a great vet and I've been going to him for over 25 years but I don't know if he would do that.

[Apple Corps]

Barb - what the med link I posted suggests for Baytril is a higher dosage for a longer time than some vets prescribe.

I'll defer to the others as to the syringe and nipple size.

[fltech]

Barb - I just PM'd you. Please read.

[Loopy Squirrel]

I would be careful about increasing the dose. Babies are sensitive and baytril can be hard on the kidneys and liver. As long as you continue to give the same dose and do not aspirate the baby any more he should do fine. The problem is not a change in the bacteria in the lungs its the chronic aspirations. The baby would probably do better if he could be nebulized. The baytril will kill the bacteria that is in the lungs and the nebulizer will open up the lungs more and help to rid them of the excess fluids. The only other thing that will help open the lungs is lasix. This med you can only get from the vet and it can be very dehydrating to the squirrel because its job is to pull out excess fluids from the body. The squirrel must be hydrated during this time. The key is to keep the lungs clear.

[Barb d]

I don't think he is dehydrating, his skin flattens out right away when he is pinch tented. Appetite is still good and no bloated belly. Still urnating and pooping fine just that wheeze and clicking.

[Loopy Squirrel]

If you were to take him back to the vet and asked for lasix then you would have to watch his hydration. I don't mean that now.

[LynninIN]

Here is a thread from last year that may be helpful. FYI: Clavamox has since been found to cause GI bleeding in some squirrels and is no longer recommended.


http://thesquirrelboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5810

[Loopy Squirrel]

I am going to try to explain what these meds are for...the baby has fluid in the lungs from aspirating and as long as it sits there it will grow bacteria. The body normally expells fluid that gets into the lungs but it takes time. The problem is when bacteria grows. The lungs get clogged up w/ mucus because the lungs are trying to exspell the fluids. The baytril will kill the bacteria, but it will take time for the body to get a rid of the fluids. If you chronically aspirate the squirrel it can't get a rid of the fluids. The baytril is still working on the bacteria. Nebulizing w/ albuterol will open up the lung capacity as much as it can to help the baby breath better so the antibiotic has a chance to work. The lasix is a diuretic medication that pulls excess fluids from the body ( lungs included). Because it is a diuretic it can dehydrate the body when you use it. People w/ high blood pressure sometimes use them but they must drink alot to prevent dehydration. If you keep aspirating the baby it won't matter how much baytril you give you will still have fluid in the lungs. The best thing now is to try to open the lungs as much as possible so he can breath better.

[Barb d]

I'm going to just stay the course of prescribed meds and pray for the same results as before. He is not as bad as before and hopefully he'll turn around soon. Thank you for all your care and concern and advise.

[Apple Corps]

Loopy - the main issue on the meds posting is that the treatment period may be as long as 30 days - something to be aware of. It does sound as if the ongoing aspirations are the issue - perhaps a squirrel burrito for feeding sessions would be in order :D :D

[squirrelsrule&bunniestoo]

The problem with Baytril is that you CANNOT use it for long periods of time in baby mammals. There is a note in the mammal babies book not to use it more than 7-10 days as it can cause the growth in their long bones to stop.

I would think Sulphatrim would be a much better choice if it is going to be used long term. I had a bunny with an abcess on sulphatrim for over a month and he was fine.

[Apple Corps]

SR&B - those are correct points - finding the right "balancing point" between the two risks is the art of healing in this case.

[Loopy Squirrel]

Aspiration pneumonia is a different bacteria than mycoplasma. The mycoplasma is a naturally occuring bacteria that can be present in the nasal passages of rodents. It normally doesn't cause a problem unless the animal is immune compromised. Then it can invade the body and cause havock. It is a very resistant bacteria to get a rid of and I agree w/ AC for higher dosages & Doxycycline for that particular bacteria, but aspiration pneumonia is a different bacteria and should't need such a strong course of antibiotics. I would agree w/ increasing the dose only if the baby continues to get worse w/out further aspirations and when all other treatments have failed.

[smoknbunny]

Hi - just checking in on the little squirrel. Just thought I'd mention that I would be thinking about how to get his lungs cleared of the mucus and fluids. I'm not a squirrel but I do get bronchitis on a regular basis (from allergies, or too much dust or whatever sets it off). If I don't get the passages in my lungs cleared right away it winds up causing an infection in my lungs and then I have to take antibiotics. BUT if you can get the fluids out of his lungs, the bacteria will have a harder time growing. If the fluid stays in the lungs you will be fighting an uphill battle with the bacteria.
Antibiotics are great for killing or stopping the bacteria but they will not directly clear out his lungs and if his lungs stay full, the bacteria will come back - and they may be bacteria that have built up a resistance to the antibiotics.
I think the nebulizer or lasix is an excellent idea as mentioned by LS but if you can't get that maybe there is something else that could work?
Fluid in the lungs allows bacteria to grow, when bacteria grows the passages in the lungs get swollen by the infection, when the passages are swollen, the fluid is trapped, the antibiotic kills the bacteria but does not reduce the inflammation so the fluid is still in there and new bacteria will grow.
Hope I'm not confusing the issue but after having bronchitis for 20 years I have a little experience with lung issues:)

[Barb d]

Hi everyone, Little guy is still doing the same. Eats good (sucks hard and eagerly) trying very hard to control the sucking and wiggling around his box but still clicking. But I have heartbreaking news, my sweet little girl died. She was always fine ate well no bloating, no dehydration, never any wheezing or clicking always wiggly and a little sweetheart. I went in to check on little guy and I noticed that her whole head was covered in urine and her one eye was a little off, just looked different. I cleaned her up carefully and wrapped her in warm fleece and put her on a warm rice buddy. I checked on her 30 minutes later and found that she was again snuggling my other little guy. I was getting the big kennel wiped out and cleaned when she let out a few loud chirps. I picked her up and she died. What did I do to her? I never saw any signs of nor feeling well. I'm so sorry.

[fltech]

I'm so sorry you lost your little girl, but you have nothing to be sorry for. You did everything you could for her, but so many things can happen. Since I don't know how they came to be with you, I would not even try to guess what went wrong.

Please don't feel guilty. Things happen, even to those of us who have access to meds, vet care, etc.

Keep plugging away with your little boy. Good Luck!

[Buddy'sMom]

So very sorry to hear about your little girl, Barb. RIP baby girl. :Love_Icon

It is so hard to lose any of them, but harder still when it is out of the blue like that. Do you know anything about how she was found? It's possible she had internal injuries that you couldn't have known about. It's natural (and helpful) to look again at what you did for her, or might have missed. But it might not have had anything to do with her care. Take comfort in knowing that you gave her a safe, comfy and loving place to spend her last days -- that is a great gift.

I hope the little boy continues to improve.

:grouphug :Love_Icon :grouphug

[Barb d]

I got my little guys 4/22. Thumper ( she was found the day before with blood coming from her nose) and my little boy ( first one found in the driveway from the other nest) came home first. Then I was called back later to pick up my sweet little girl and my little boy. They were found by the base of a tree by the driveway a few hours later. The poor things were so cold my heart broke.

[4skwerlz]

Sorry you lost the little girl. :grouphug Try not to blame yourself. The fall from a tree, the cold, the delay before they get to you--all these things stack the deck against you sometimes. You have a caring heart and will be a great rehabber.

:Love_Icon Rest in Peace Lil' Girl:Love_Icon

[Apple Corps]

:grouphug :grouphug

[island rehabber]

I'm using a syringe like "d" a 3 cc slip tip with a silicone nipple with a nipple like "g" modified by cutting off the long nipple part and only using the base slipped over the silicone nipple about 1/3 inch.

I think the slip tip is the problem, not the nipple attachments. Chris Clark actually addressed this in a talk last month which I attended. O-Rings give you WAY more control....they are so hard to push that few squirrels can suck down the plunger by themselves. The human has to push -- thereby gaining control over the situation. :thumbsup :)

[Barb d]

Great news!!!!! Little guy just returned from a recheck at the vet with NO signs of pneumonia!!! Clear lungs just a little bit of head congestion. Thanks again to all you wonderful people I KNOW you saved his life. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!

[Apple Corps]

Great job to you :thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

[LynninIN]

Great news!!!!! Little guy just returned from a recheck at the vet with NO signs of pneumonia!!! Clear lungs just a little bit of head congestion. Thanks again to all you wonderful people I KNOW you saved his life.
You saved his life Barb and hopefully will save many more.