FOX VALLEY & PINKIES: Discussion Thread

[Rhapsody]

I have never lost a pinkie to FV 32/40 that was younger than 5 days old..... and the only thing I can
see that I do differently is that I mixed my formula as needed, therefore, it is fresh at every feeding
and never has to sit (or settle) in between each feedings.

I dont add any thing to their FV until they are 4 weeks old. (no boost, no yogurt, no cream)

[Unikorngrrl]

Apparently this is a recent issue. Mine still have a milk line but are smacking and squeaking to eat. I only mix 4 teaspoons at a time for all 3 and Darby. It only lasts maybe 2-3 feedings. All I know for sure is that I need for you guys that have done this for years to tell me for sure what I need to do. We need a standard before we lose more babies please...

[Nancy in New York]

This is NOT a recent issue.
This has been discussed openly for the past couple of years.
Pappy and Wonkawillie, (AND OTHERS) have noticed problems with some of their
little ones and stricktly go with the GM formula until eyes open.
When something works you stay with it, and up until now,
I thought it was working for me.
Looking back I lost two neonates last year that were on 32/40 and UB.
I remember then seeing that the line had never completely gone away,
but close enough that I felt comfortable feeding again.

What I have done now is switched them over to the GM formula immediately,
with NO transition.

My three remaining neonate reds are doing fantastic. I see NO milk line when
I go to feed again, and they are clearly taking more at each feeding.
I will be sticking with the GM formula for a few more weeks, and then slowly
introduce the FV back.
If I encounter a problem then, I will get them off immediately, until eyes open. (OR NOT?)

[island rehabber]

Uni: FEED THEM, even if it's a bit diluted, and get Nick to send 20/50 to you. I'm sure he will take back the 32/40.
Rhapsody: I also mix only enough for that feeding I'm doing -- but it didn't matter with my little Robbie...
I'm saying GM (ugh, can't wait for the stinkyness! ) or 20/50.
GM folks: can you freeze it? It's not available near me so I need to find it on the mainland and hopefully stock up.....

[CritterMom]

Uni: FEED THEM, even if it's a bit diluted, and get Nick to send 20/50 to you. I'm sure he will take back the 32/40.
Rhapsody: I also mix only enough for that feeding I'm doing -- but it didn't matter with my little Robbie...
I'm saying GM (ugh, can't wait for the stinkyness! ) or 20/50.
GM folks: can you freeze it? It's not available near me so I need to find it on the mainland and hopefully stock up.....

Maura, I can get the powdered goats milk at my local supermarket in the natural foods section. I would think that would be the best solution - keep the powder in the freezer like you do the FV powder and mix just what is needed for the day.
http://www.vitacost.com/meyenberg-po...oat-milk-12-oz

[Unikorngrrl]

Uni: FEED THEM, even if it's a bit diluted, and get Nick to send 20/50 to you. I'm sure he will take back the 32/40.
Rhapsody: I also mix only enough for that feeding I'm doing -- but it didn't matter with my little Robbie...
I'm saying GM (ugh, can't wait for the stinkyness! ) or 20/50.
GM folks: can you freeze it? It's not available near me so I need to find it on the mainland and hopefully stock up.....

Yes, you can freeze it and they usually suggest in an ice tray so that you can take small amounts out at a time.

[CritterMom]

Yes, this has been discussed for some time. I have assumed that it was more IR's extreme proficiency with pinkies and perhaps a teeny bit NYC public water high quality that was the reason she was not having the issues so many others were having.

So the difference between the two formulas is that 32/40 has more protein and less fat than has. Can we assume that perhaps there is a problem with the protein source for this formula that isn't showing up in the 20/50 because there is less overall protein in it?

Of course, the babies NEED that additional protein when they are in the pre-eye open stage - and what would boost that in the 20/50? It is easy to add fat; less easy to add protein.

I am eager to hear what Nick has to say about this. I used 32/40 plus heavy cream and yogurt for Laz with no issues, but I have had that 32/40 for some time - I keep all that stuff in the freezer...mine may have pre-dated what is going on, because clearly SOMETHING is different now... That said, I mix mine with nearly boiling water and then cool it with the HC before adding yogurt and mix VERY well and then let it sit in the fridge before using...and it requires stirring before I do, which tells me that there are solids that are NOT being dissolved in it - they are just going into solution when it is stirred and then precipitating out when it sits. Since this is the basis of the problems with esbilac, it should concern all of us...

[Charley Chuckles]

My bag is good through Dec. 31, 2014....but maybe I should dilute it more just in case, it is just for LG but I know sometimes her poops are whitish cement like Jackie mentioned Can I use yogurt in it I know she will be 2 soon, but she still want's her ba ba

[Nancy in New York]

Yes, this has been discussed for some time. I have assumed that it was more IR's extreme proficiency with pinkies and perhaps a teeny bit NYC public water high quality that was the reason she was not having the issues so many others were having.

So the difference between the two formulas is that 32/40 has more protein and less fat than has. Can we assume that perhaps there is a problem with the protein source for this formula that isn't showing up in the 20/50 because there is less overall protein in it?

Of course, the babies NEED that additional protein when they are in the pre-eye open stage - and what would boost that in the 20/50? It is easy to add fat; less easy to add protein.

I am eager to hear what Nick has to say about this. I used 32/40 plus heavy cream and yogurt for Laz with no issues, but I have had that 32/40 for some time - I keep all that stuff in the freezer...mine may have pre-dated what is going on, because clearly SOMETHING is different now... That said, I mix mine with nearly boiling water and then cool it with the HC before adding yogurt and mix VERY well and then let it sit in the fridge before using...and it requires stirring before I do, which tells me that there are solids that are NOT being dissolved in it - they are just going into solution when it is stirred and then precipitating out when it sits. Since this is the basis of the problems with esbilac, it should concern all of us...

I also premix mine and let it sit. I do it up ahead
all of the time, at least a day before, sometimes I do larger
batches and freeze. NEVER had problems, or perhaps I did last year.

What I did notice, and I even wrote about it.....was that I preload my syringes.(hate to keep the little ones waiting )
When I did large numbers of squirrels, I had up to 70 preloaded syringes at a time,
so they wouldn't have to wait. Last year I had to stop this practice.

I noticed that the ones that sat there for say, 30 minutes, all clogged in the
nipple. When I squeezed the end of the nipple,
the formula came out like cake writing decoration in a straight little line.
Not every single one that sat, but enough so that I no longer preload that many.
This tells me that even when premixed a day ahead, it seperates and clogs the nipples,
if it clogs the nipples, it clogs the babies.

[HappyLittleSquirrely]

Should i keep feeding Piti The 32/40 ultra boost mix?.i know he's not a pinky no more but now i'm worried. should i go get goat milk? i have two full unopened bag of the stuff. i dont want to take any chances.

[island rehabber]

HLS, if it ain't broke don't fix it. PiTi is doing wonderfully and he's older. My guys are all on the same mex you're feeding and they're perfect. This is SPECIFICALLY an issue with neonates -- 1-7 days old.

[stosh2010]

I also premix mine and let it sit. I do it up ahead
all of the time, at least a day before, sometimes I do larger
batches and freeze. NEVER had problems, or perhaps I did last year.

What I did notice, and I even wrote about it.....was that I preload my syringes.(hate to keep the little ones waiting )
When I did large numbers of squirrels, I had up to 70 preloaded syringes at a time,
so they wouldn't have to wait. Last year I had to stop this practice.

I noticed that the ones that sat there for say, 30 minutes, all clogged in the
nipple. When I squeezed the end of the nipple,
the formula came out like cake writing decoration in a straight little line.
Not every single one that sat, but enough so that I no longer preload that many.
This tells me that even when premixed a day ahead, it seperates and clogs the nipples,
if it clogs the nipples, it clogs the babies.

Nancy ,when I had to pre-load and let syringes sit a while...I had the CLOGGING problem also.
I solved it by loading the syringes---adding the nipples---and not filling the nipples with the Fox Valley.
I kept the syringes in warm water..and as I removed each syringe...I placed the nipple in my lips--pushed the plunger to insure it wasn't clogged and was flowing smoothly...and then offered it to my waiting squirrels.

I found that my clogged syringes dropped by 90 %....
Over the years I've probably drank a POUND of FV myself...

[Nancy in New York]

Nancy ,when I had to pre-load and let syringes sit a while...I had the CLOGGING problem also.
I solved it by loading the syringes---adding the nipples---and not filling the nipples with the Fox Valley.
I kept the syringes in warm water..and as I removed each syringe...I placed the nipple in my lips--pushed the plunger to insure it wasn't clogged and was flowing smoothly...and then offered it to my waiting squirrels.

I found that my clogged syringes dropped by 90 %....
Over the years I've probably drank a POUND of FV myself...

Great idea stosh, thanks for sharing.
But since you had clogged nipples also,
that would suggest to us how fast this
"settles" and clogs, which is not good for the babies. UGH!

[Junior]

I have had issues with FV setting up in the little ones guts and within a day or two they pass. I personally am not a fan of FV because Nick uses HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP in squirrel milk.......this is something that I think is causing poor growth rates and diarrhea. It is NOT something that I eat and I am certainly NOT giving it to my little guys!
Now I am going to say that I have recently (along with several other seasoned rehabbers) tried the NEW Esbilac that has probiotics and Dried Whey Protein Concentrate!!! You have to look on the label to make sure of what you are getting!!!

Finally once again I am having the fat necked babies that are flourishing......one of my girls gained 7 grams yesterday!!!

I know what Esbilac has been and done in the past but they have changed the formula, who knows if it is because of all the phone call and flack that they got from rehabbers.......all I can say is it has changed and changed for the better.

I am getting fantastic weight gains, much less poo (not nearly as hard as when they are on FV) which makes me think they are absorbing/utilizing more of the nutrients.

I have tried everything on the market.......FV, MultiMilk, Old Esbilac, Century 21, Zoologic......and every mixture in between.

So far this is giving me the results of the Old Esbilac and the Old MulitMilk.

In case anyone wants to try I am mixing 2:1 Water to powder and adding in 1/8 part cream once they are up to 25 grams.

**** I have not tried this on anything under 20 grams, so I am not speaking for the pinkies but I would have to think it is better and my little ones dying from FV!!!

Good Luck !!!
Christy

[Unikorngrrl]

I contacted Henry's and they gave me an instant store credit!! AWESOME customer service they have!!! Very pleased!! Already placed a new order!!

[farrelli]

Do you prepare it at high heat and let it sit? Also, how do you tell old from new? We just have so many people coming in feeding Esbilac already that it would be good to know how to tell them if it's safe and how to prepare it in situations where they can't find GM or anything else for the time being. Thanks.

[Junior]

Here are pictures of Sage......First one is when I got her. Picked them up late on Friday the 3rd of August, this picture was taken on the 4th. The second picture was taken this morning - 10 days later. She was 34 grams at intake and weighted in at 74 grams this morning. That is 40 grams in 10 days.....even I am impressed with that.

[Junior]

Hi Farrelli - I get the hottest water straight out of the tap......and even microwave it (1/4 cup water for 15 seconds) if I have to. Then I mix my powder, shake, let it cool for just a second and then add my cream. I have NEVER had an issue with curdling so far.

The Caseys at Ewildagain.org (?) have the study on mixing with the hottest water possible.....not boiling by any means but hot enough to break apart the molecules that are not as water soluble. Apparently that is why Esbilace was such a bear to mix several years ago was from the butterfat....

I also try to mix at least an hour before feeding but sometimes that doesn't always happen.

Just tell people if they have not purchased a can yet that it HAS to have Dried Whey Protein CONCENTRATE (3rd ingredient on the list on the can).

If they buy the old stuff you will be battling the same old issues......diarrhea!!!

[Nancy in New York]

I have had issues with FV setting up in the little ones guts and within a day or two they pass. I personally am not a fan of FV because Nick uses HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP in squirrel milk.......this is something that I think is causing poor growth rates and diarrhea. It is NOT something that I eat and I am certainly NOT giving it to my little guys!
Now I am going to say that I have recently (along with several other seasoned rehabbers) tried the NEW Esbilac that has probiotics and Dried Whey Protein Concentrate!!! You have to look on the label to make sure of what you are getting!!!

Finally once again I am having the fat necked babies that are flourishing......one of my girls gained 7 grams yesterday!!!

I know what Esbilac has been and done in the past but they have changed the formula, who knows if it is because of all the phone call and flack that they got from rehabbers.......all I can say is it has changed and changed for the better.

I am getting fantastic weight gains, much less poo (not nearly as hard as when they are on FV) which makes me think they are absorbing/utilizing more of the nutrients.

I have tried everything on the market.......FV, MultiMilk, Old Esbilac, Century 21, Zoologic......and every mixture in between.

So far this is giving me the results of the Old Esbilac and the Old MulitMilk.

In case anyone wants to try I am mixing 2:1 Water to powder and adding in 1/8 part cream once they are up to 25 grams.

**** I have not tried this on anything under 20 grams, so I am not speaking for the pinkies but I would have to think it is better and my little ones dying from FV!!!

Good Luck !!!
Christy

Rhapsody, I see you asked about the Esbilac with probiotics, way back when we were having the discussion about the FV problems, Junior was the very first person to mention the NEW Esbilac with probiotics. As time went on and people were losing more babies and then the diarrhea started with the older kids, I believe people got to the point where they threw up their hands, and were ready to try almost anyting at that point.
So far NO problems reported with the New Esbilac.

[island rehabber]

I'm glad this thread was bumped -- a reminder that I need to change some of our stickies as to what we're recommending. The Esbilac with probiotics seems good so far.....the next pinkie season (March/April 2014) will be the real prooving ground.